La Petite Mort

[Cameron]

One of the 24 rules of Qigong practice by Yang Jwing Ming . I will copy all 24 rules onto my journal.

 

Regulate your Sexual Activity

 

You should not have sexual relations at least 24 hours before or after practicing Chi Kung, especially martial or religious Chi Kung. The Essence-Chi conversion training is a very critical part of these practices, and if you practice Chi Kung soon after sex, you will harm your body significantly. Sex depletes your Chi and sperm, and the Chi level in the lower portion of your body is lower than normal. When you practice Chi Kung under these conditions, it is like doing heavy exercise right after sex. Furthermore, when your Chi level is abnormal, your feeling and sensing are also not accurate. Under these conditions, your Yi can be misled and its accuracy affected. You should wait until the Chi level regains it normal balance before your resume Chi Kung. Only then will the Essence-Chi conversion proceed normally and efficiently.

 

One of the major purposes of Chi Kung is to increase the Essence Chi conversion and use this Chi to nourish your body. Once a man has built up a supply of Chi, having sex will only pass this Chi on to his partner. As a matter of fact, many Chi Kung masters insist that you should not have sex three days before and four days after practice. During sexual relations the female usually gains Chi while the male loses Chi during ejaculation. The woman should not practice Chi Kung after sex until her body has digested the Chi she has obtained from the man. There are certain Taoist Chi Kung techniques which teach men how not to lose Chi during sexual activity, and teach women how to receive Chi from the man and digest it. We will leave the discussion of this subject to Chi Kung masters who are qualified and experienced in it.

[spyrelx]

[Yoda]

Sean you don't want to practice then ejaculate immediately afterwards for 2 weeks. Have you fucking lost it? That's way worse than ejaculating 8x a day.

 

At the very least give your body 2 hours to re-assimilate the energy before you blow per "opening the gates" by Frantzis. Or just do a low energy practice like sitting meditation prior to.

 

Osho says that ejaculation has certain benefits for men who do not exercise--but this state of affairs is a perversion. Exercise for your prana and circulation.

 

Come on... mankind has tested the ejaculation=exercise theory for ever and it aint so for 99.999999% of the population. If there ever was a theory that has been tested, it's this one. Weren't you ever 14?

 

Perhaps Guy has figured out a way to minimize his energy loss--the key is that he wants to and does make love for hours immediately after an ejaculation. If you can do that, then you are set. If you can't then don't. But I'd imagine that even a kundalini master can't do this 2x a day.

 

If you have an ejaculation and you feel energized and even more voracious, then you have a net gain situation and you'll reasonably decide to simply spend your whole life ejaculating. If not, then don't. This isn't rocket science!!! Try it once, and you have the answer.

 

-Yoda

[thelerner]

Sean, willing to sacrifice himself in the name of sex and science. I say go for it. You know both sides of the issue. You're not biased, you want the truth. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

 

Actually you can, the question is can your intrepid listeners. Let the experiment begin, just stop if you notice a few extra grey hairs early on.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

Hardly an experiment, reads more like a suicide note to me.

 

Have Lezlie promise that she'll only date taoboys in the future, we want to keep her in the tribe.

 

-Yoda

[sean]

And when you put it that way, the theory is kind of ridiculous on its face.  I mean your body MUST use energy to produce sperm, even if it's just a little bit of energy.  So not producing it MUST save the energy that you would have used in production.  And the daoist view (unproven) is that the energy used in production is HUGE.  (Even Winn admits this, he says if you've extracted the jing, the energy loss is minimal, but it's still there -- how could it not be?).

 

But couldn't someone think of lifting weights the same way?

 

"How in the world could you possibly expect to spend an hour throwing weights around, tearing the muscle fibers apart in your whole body, and expect to become stronger and have more energy? Are you crazy? Those muscle fibers have to repair themselves!! That is a biochemical healing process that takes energy. This is suicide. I used to lift weights when I was in my 20's but then I had a few disturbing failures and so I've concluded that lifting weights is wrong. Now all I do is bodyweight exercises as recommended to me by ancient master teachings that say weight lifting is bad for you (who also had thousands of other superstitions I have to admit are ridiculous) but they are so much fun and they don't burn me out the same way as weights."

 

Come to think of it, don't many Eastern Masters have opinions about hard training, like weight lifting, leading to jing loss?

 

Yoda, I will write my will out beforehand.

 

Actually I think I am starting to chicken out on the experiment as I originally detailed it. Just thinking about it is making me tired. Heh. I think I'm in so deep as Devil's Advocate I got a little too fired up in the role and lost my way ... kind of like Laurence Fishburne in Deep Cover.

 

I do want to test jing retention theory though, but I think I will fine tune my experiment first. I started thinking about the exercise analogy and how the experiment would be the equivalent of, let's say, heavily lifting weights for the same muscle groups every day. We are much more aware of the mechanism of healing from weight lifting. You take a day off from working those muscle groups, do active recovery movement, hot/cold therapy if neccessary, nutrition, etc., But if the ejaculation=exercise theory is true we clearly don't understand the mechanism for healing from this stretch to our system which is essential for the whole one step back, two steps forward process. Much more to ponder. And I actually have another idea to add to this experiment that is so eccentric I won't even mention it yet.

 

Sean.

[Yoda]

Here's a post from Guy that he had intended to post here, but it got cc to me. Good stuff, agrees with Matt's thoughts. Still, I'm not lined up for Sean's challenge. Here it is:

 

I had just turned 23 when I experienced a full awakening. I am now about to turn 55. My wife and I are curently together for ten years and we have a soon to be six boy who just started school two days ago. We also have to large dogs four cats and eighteen hores to care fore. I have always had a very high sex drive and do not recall ever saying no or mabe later to my wife. Frequence of intercourse is determend by my wife and her state of health When she is able the energy is fulfiling and certainly not draining. I usualy remain in bliss all night after orgasm. Lovemaking is an unhuried experince of blending so deeply as to have no distinction or boundries between you. Letting go of the, I am doing this to him or her, is the first art. Forget the distinction of your male or femaleness and surrender into the oneness.

 

With open heart Guy

[spyrelx]

But couldn't someone think of lifting weights the same way?

 

"How in the world could you possibly expect to spend an hour throwing weights around, tearing the muscle fibers apart in your whole body, and expect to become stronger and have more energy? Are you crazy? Those muscle fibers have to repair themselves!! That is a biochemical healing process that takes energy. This is suicide. I used to lift weights when I was in my 20's but then I had a few disturbing failures and so I've concluded that lifting weights is wrong. Now all I do is bodyweight exercises as recommended to me by ancient master teachings that say weight lifting is bad for you (who also had thousands of other superstitions I have to admit are ridiculous) but they are so much fun and they don't burn me out the same way as weights."

 

6772[/snapback]

 

 

I think your analogy is flawed. In fact, your analogy proves my point. When you lift weights you LOOSE ENERGY. YOU DO DAMAGE TO YOUR BODY. It is only because you then rest and TAKE IN MORE ENERGY TO REBUILD YOUR MUCSCLES that you get bigger and stronger. So lifting weight IS AN ENERGY LOOSING ACTIVITY.

 

I know, you say, "but after rest and taking in more energy I have bigger muscles". But to analogize that to sperm production is to misunderstand what sperm production is.

 

In weight lifting you're NOT creating muscle and then THROWING IT OUT OF YOUR BODY. Rather you are tearing the muscle and rebuilding it (with the help of lots of additional energy in the way of food, rest, enzymes, etc.).

 

With sperm, all you are doing is using energy to get rid of it (in the form of ejaculate). THERE IS NOTHING TO REBUILD, NOTHING TO TEAR AND GET STRONGER. You're just running an energy loosing biometric process over and over.

 

It's like you're saying, "oh, I have this bread machine. I put flour, yeast and water in and it makes bread. So if I run it 24 hours a day it will become a bigger, stronger bread machine."

 

No, all it will be is a bread machine with a bit more wear and tear. To make more bread (sperm) you have to keep putting more source material (jing) in. The act of making bread doesn't increase your source material (jing).

 

The difference between a bread machine and the human body is our source material is harder to come by. You don't get to just keep pouring jing in so it can come out as sperm.

 

Despite what yoda says, I think you should try your experiment for a few weeks. Don't worry about timing (before, after chi gung, etc.). Just make love when you always do but come instead. A few weeks worth of spilt seed is not going to kill you. See how you feel.

[Yoda]

don't spill your seed solo, either. Dual is better as you'll be picking up some good vibes and donating your loss to a good cause.

 

I agree, the weightlifting example doesn't follow. Exercise whether lifting, running, etc expends energy and pulls in breath/energy/prana and once you get the swing of it, it is a net gain unless you are really out of shape and blow out a tendon or something but ejaculation expends energy and pulls in energy, but the ratios are not as favorable. If the ejaculation is very light and there's more of a heartgasm going on as is the case with Guy, then the loss might be managable.

 

Why waste a perfectly good two weeks on an experiment that you already know the result of? It'll take another two weeks to catch up.

 

Dig that book on amazon. Here's a link to the dude's sexual philosophy:

 

http://www.luckymojo.com/tkpbrandolph.html

 

There is actually a tradition in Sufism that advocates pre-ejaculative prayer and intention. Ron has also mentioned casting curses during ejaculation, as well. Looks like the luckymojo website contains the very same debate as this thread, just a 150years ago.

 

-Yoda

[Yoda]

quote dujour from Gurdjieff:

 

One must know that this divine seed, the Sperm, has another function, that of the construction of a second body in us, from whence the sentence, Happy he who understands the function of the exioehary for the transformation of his being. Unhappy he who uses them in a unilateral manner.

 

 

Don't ask me what it means, but sounds similar to taoist theory.

[thelerner]

Guiedjeff was one of the few guys who earned 4 stars on the rate a guru site. Note Chia got 1 1/2, probably lost a star for alleged plagiarism.

 

Sean if you're interested in Sexual Magic, check out Margo Anand's Art of Sexual Magic. Whether you set up the magic circle and create your personal focal symbol, it has some pretty hot techniques.

 

Peace

 

Michael

[Yoda]

Peter Falk is moving around in China right now, but I'm sure he could back up Guy's perspective on sex. But here's a quote that expresses this path (googled gurdjieff ejaculation eso--the first site that comes up):

 

this may seem strange coming from a sexual hedonist like myself...as

celibacy is one of the last things that i would ever consider for myself,

but i have recently been experiencing major transformation and ecstasy from

withholding ejaculation...i do this in conjunction with lots of time focused

on sexuality, tantric stimulation, and ejaculationless tantric orgasms...so

to me it is a hyper-sexuality rather than celibacy...

 

i used to believe that the tantric idea of the semen physically moving into

the brain was only metaphorical, and have read that it is physiologically

impossible...but i have found that after a week of intense tantric

stimulation and ejaculationless orgasms, that if i finally ejaculate, there

is only a very small amount of semen...if i merely abstained from

stimulation without the tantra, i would build up a very large quantity of

semen after a week's time...so where did it all go? i think that the tantric

stimulation got it physically moving up my spine to my brain, although this

is not the only possible explanation...

 

anyway, my general level of ecstasy/bliss/loving euphoria has increased

drastically over the last few months while i have been doing this... i do

actually have a physical ejaculation about a couple of times a month, so i

haven't found that complete abstinence from them is necessary...this would

compare to my previous norm of having about one a day...but for me, it is

the combination of withholding the ejacualation along with extended orgasms

(often longer than 30 minutes*) that makes the magic...

 

(* for info on extended sexual orgasms, see Alan and Donna Bauer's book,

"ESO: How You and Your Lover Can Give Each Other Hours of Extended

Sexual Orgasm"...it's an inexpensive paperback that is carried by amazon.com)

 

Naturally, I ordered ESO a few minutes ago... although I have my doubts that I'll learn anything new. I'm renewing my quest for the "ejaculationless tantric orgasm". If anyone is fluent in this dept. please post any 'how to' tips.

[Yoda]

check it out, if you google "heartgasm" you find your way back to the taobums and my previous attempt at this practice. Any updates from Matt and Turbo?

[sean]

Great follow up points Spyrelx and Yoda. It's been a fun debate. It's helped me bring a lot more focus to my thoughts and feelings on retention. The latest angle I've been pondering, as I've somewhat alluded to, is the magickal value of ejaculation. The Taoist alchemical paths focus mostly on internal development, not on creating external change. "Sex magick" theory, summarized/butchered into my own words, says that any intention you are holding at the point of climax will, basically, manifest an astral child aimed at carrying out this intention. Creepy I know, but magickians tend to anthropomorphize everything so it's no different than saying the spiritual energy exploding out of you at orgasm doesn't just vanish into thin air, it resonates into the universe with a frequency. And if you consciously tune that frequency with a purpose, it will vibrate the world around you in support of your intentions. I think this is what Guy is doing. He is infusing his every orgasm with so much open heart Samadhi love ... for his wife, his life and himself that he just continually manifests high energy, health and bliss despite the "Jing loss" which in this case isn't loss at all, it's investment.

 

So Yoda, apparently this topic has got us both in hot pursuit of more resources for the non-ejaculatory orgasm, heartgasm, valley orgasm, etc. Great finds with the luckymojo site and the Gurdjieff quotes. It lead to a good page I found (first in the list below). Thelerner, thanks for the book reference. I see this book every time I go to Good Vibrations but haven't picked it up yet. You found it useful?

 

Here are some pages I've found in no particular order. Nothing to write home about really, but the first two I found informative. In fact the technique described in the second one, from the unlikely "How to Make Love to a Woman", is the only technique I've ever gotten to work to have a pleasurable non-ejaculatory orgasm. I'll have to pursue that technique more seriously now ...

 

http://www.luckymojo.com/tknorthaustin.html

http://sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16674

http://www.joanelloyd.com/fbmalorg.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4676076/

http://www.multiorgasmic.com/home.html

http://www.tantra-sex.com/EjaculationMastery.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...g=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...g=UTF8&v=glance

 

 

Sean.

[Yoda]

I'm diggin the good Doctor Stockham--she's the one who coined the term Karezza

 

 

 

http://www.luckymojo.com/tkpbrandolph.html

 

http://www.luckymojo.com/tkstockhamkarezza.html

 

 

She's pretty impressive--born on the frontier in MI in 1833, became one of the first female MDs, travelled to India to learn about sexual yoga, saw through the whole "this is a male practice/women are bystanders" thing and then came back and spread the technique in the US as a form of emotional healing and birth control (as contraception was against the law at the time )

 

Amazing.

 

-Yoda

[thelerner]

I over did sexually active retention. I think I'll try a slightly conservative approach. Something like one ejaculation after two sessions of non ejac sexuallity.

 

Try it for a while, see if that feel right and achieves a happy medium.

 

In Kaishan Golden Shield Chi Gung, they did stress that you had to go through a 100 days of celibacy in order to gain real power. You could do it at the beginning or middle, w/ the beginning being easier.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

Grasshopper,

 

Did you shoot someone in the service industry? Chew out a child? It's OK, just part of the learning curve. If the problem was excessive aggression, try out the keysound practice--I've been having luck with it recently.

 

We expect great things from you. Reread Napoleon Hill's think and grow rich sex chapter every so often.

 

I think the big dreamers get "pulled" by their dreams and their excitement about their plans, and the chi naturally moves upwards so that they don't obsess about sex and when they have sex, there isn't as much of an energy loss, just like that passage I quoted in this thread. It's a secondary objective for them, not the primary objective.

 

When there isn't a huge life passion as is typically the case, pushing chi upwards with too much force, can be disadvantageous. That's a nice thing about the keysound vs. the tantric/taoist methods is that it's more of a pull from above than a push from below, and it's easier to stay balanced.

 

-Yoda