La Petite Mort

[sean]

[Cameron]

In his chapter on sexuality in his book " The Way of Qigong" Ken Cohen states that serious qigong practitioners should practice retention and only ejaculate every so often(depending on your age and health). Excessive loss of jing through ejaculation makes it hard if not impossible to develop the other 2 of the 3 treasures. I think the way Ken says it is for optimul qi development ejaculate only every so often.

 

However, and this is as big a however as I can think of, he then goes on to say " If ejaculation is immenent, instead of trying to inhibit the natural process, it is better to seek a harmonious exchange of energies with one's partner. This way no energy is lost. Rather, each individual becomes more whole:the man accumulates yin and the woman gathers yang. It is also important to remember what Wile calls the "exemption clause" in the Chinese sexual classics. The more the harmony and chemistry between the man and woman, the less need to be concerned about losing semen".

[Cameron]

Also, to borrow Ron Teeguarden's explanation of the 3 treasures which I love, Jing is akin to a candle, qi to the flame and shen to the light produced. If we as men ejaculate several times a day without restraint as this gentleman suggests, this might be like taking a torch to the candle rather than letting it gently burn.

 

Perhaps it is true that by torching the candle more light might be momentarily produced but this would severely hurt the LONGEVITY of the candle. Taoists figured out by not hurting ones jing but protecting it and taking care of one's body, this would allow a person to have great health and longevity and allow them to naturally develop the 3 treasures. Higher awareness Taoists call 'Shen' and this shen is the unconditional love and acceptance in our heart. It is our higher nature. It is our light.

 

It is hard to judge one's health over a discussion board and I have no doubt there have been people that achieved levels of shen realization without necissarily practicing retention but that does not mean that that way is better or there health was not effected.

 

Your flame may be burning brightly and alot of light may be realized but that may also mean you are burning up jing reserves. I remember when I used to do drugs as a stupid teenager and having all these so called higher experiences and mind blowing visualizations but then waking up feeling depleted and physicially drained.

 

But perhaps this gentleman has tapped into the "Exemption clause" Douglas Wile was talking about.

[thelerner]

Glenn Morris also said Kunaliniesque experience wasn't based on retention. Western thinking is mostly devoid of its usefulness, w/ sports stars mostly but not always taking retentions side, at least before a game.

 

I don't think retention is much needed for the young. Other then for self imposed disciplinary practice. When you get older, it may be more of a missed meal, or two, older still and loss of a meal and some sleep. Maybe.

 

Peace

 

Michael

[Yoda]

the key phrase is that after ejaculation "he spends the rest of the evening making love."

 

So either he was born with great reserves and/or he doesn't lose much energy the way he does an ejaculation. His orgasm is probably more like a woman's. Only he is able to judge his own energy levels.

 

As for me, when I go I'm TKO-d, so I really can't mess with ejaculation and am teaching myself how to have non-draining heartgasms.

 

-Yoda

[spyrelx]

I'm assuming he's 23-25. Which means he's got close to peak sexual energy. And which also means he hasn't had that much experience with his sexuality (I don't mean jacking off since with you were 13, I mean living with your own sexual ebbs and flows for 20 or 30 years).

 

So I don't think he has the level of experience necessary to make the statements he's making.

 

I also distrust anyone who declares they've acheived all sorts of fantastic spiritual things by the time they're in their early 20's.

[sean]

I also distrust anyone who declares they've acheived all sorts of fantastic spiritual things by the time they're in their early 20's.

 

spyrelx, that might be a good rule of thumb but you also would have had to ignore Ramana Maharshi who achieved full realization at age 16 and is one of the most universally respected saints.

 

In this case I do think the age factor is an important consideration. Most of us probably didn't start noticing lowered energy levels from jing loss until a little after mid-20's, true?

 

Perhaps Guy will step in and respond in this regard.

[thaddeus]

Hi, I'm new here posted a couple times and mostly lurked. I have some comments in no particular order. First off, the guy may have a point. Building up sexual energy *may* be similar to exercising, in that you can build up the strength. How much of the energy loss is psychological? At the same time, I noticed as a 13 year old that i had less spiritual energy the next day after jacking off and it took a day to get it back. I'm not talking a physical tiredness, that's why I think most people who don't cultivate chi don't really notice or understand what this energy drain is. Another thing some of you have missed is that the classics state that everyone is different, just like there are guys who never lift weights can be stronger than guys who spend hours at the gym. The classics say if you feel tired afterwards, you are doing too much. But some guys just don't feel tired. This guy is young, but probably just blessed with that extra jing from good karma, good genes or just really happy and in love parents when he was conceived. How funny would it be to see a 90lb weakling cry that it's impossible for someone to bench press 225 lbs without proper training. That's what you guys who are crying about energy loss are kinda saying. Sorry, I guess that sounds a bit mean, I hope you don't take offense at it. But just think about what you're saying.

With all that said, I have a decent BS detector and I think that guy is full of it. Just my two cents.

I guess I said a lot of BS myself But I just want to add one more controversial point. Whenever I hear any of these taoists master spouting off, I look at them. Do you really think these guys look that great or that healthy? I won't name names, but seriously, sometimes you have to take a step back and ask why are we listening to some old looking fat poser spouting off about the tao. Then take a look at some of the top yoga people and draw your own conclusions..

thaddeus

[spyrelx]

spyrelx, that might be a good rule of thumb but you also would have had to ignore Ramana Maharshi who achieved full realization at age 16 and is one of the most universally respected saints.

 

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I won't ignore Ramana Maharashi so long as you don't ignore Jesus of Nazareth, who is even more universally believed to have attained divinity at birth, performed miracles as a teen and died for your sins.

 

For that matter, neither of us should ignore Halle Selassie I (King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah), who tens of thousands of Rastafarians (at least) believed to be divine, much to Mr. Selassie's bemusement.

 

These are all matters of pure, totally unprovable faith. And believing doesn't make anything so, even if most people believe it to be true.

 

But even if I WERE to give weight to claims of enlightenment/spirituality because lots of other people believed it, that's NOT the case with this guy. He appears to be the only one who believes in his attaintment.

 

The rule of thumb is a fine one and I'm sticking to it.

[spyrelx]

Whenever I hear any of these taoists master spouting off, I look at them.  Do you really think these guys look that great or that healthy?  I won't name names, but seriously, sometimes you have to take a step back and ask why are we listening to some old looking fat poser spouting off about the tao.  Then take a look at some of the top yoga people and draw your own conclusions..

thaddeus

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I agree with the general point, but it's worth noting that some of this may depend on the daoist and what they're going for. Most of the daoist martial arts guys look like they're in great physical shape. A lot of the meditator types (at least the caucasian ones) look healthy but a bit thick around the middle, perhaps because they're spending less time on their physicality. It's also an open question whether the western conception of "in shape" applies to someone who is trying to attain inner alchemy.

 

I'm not sure which way you were going with the yoga reference. But every yogi I've ever seen who was the head of school or lineage looked incredibly fat and out of shape. They'll say "yoga is a boat to get you across the river, and once there, you don't need the boat any more" but I've always viewed their physical condition as evidence that something fundemetal was missing from their system (feel the same about lots of buddhists too).

[thaddeus]

I agree with the general point, but it's worth noting that some of this may depend on the daoist and what they're going for.  Most of the daoist martial arts guys look like they're in great physical shape.  A lot of the meditator types (at least the caucasian ones) look healthy but a bit thick around the middle, perhaps because they're spending less time on their physicality.  It's also an open question whether the western conception of "in shape" applies to someone who is trying to attain inner alchemy.

 

I'm not sure which way you were going with the yoga reference.  But every yogi I've ever seen who was the head of school or lineage looked incredibly fat and out of shape.  They'll say "yoga is a boat to get you across the river, and once there, you don't need the boat any more" but I've always viewed their physical condition as evidence that something fundemetal was missing from their system (feel the same about lots of buddhists too).

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I think general health is a universal concept. Youthful vitality, ruddy complexion and vibrancy is valued and crosses all cultural lines. Fat around the middle and a pale complexion is just not sexy anywhere. The alchemy stuff I read always refers to a state of extended youth and vibrancy when you do this stuff right. I really can't think of any commercial taoist person right now that looks vibrant. Even mantak chia is showing his age (i saw him a couple months ago, sagging facial skin and dyed hair). Now look at some of the contemporary yoga people like rodney yee. Compare Rodney Yee and Ken Cohen. I agree the old yoga people don't look so hot but they are at advanced ages like BKS Iyengar and the Ashtanga guy (forgot his name)...but either way, the ashtanga guy's son is a total babe magnet. Now that's what I expect from internal training--a youthful, magnetic, overflowing sexual vitality. I just don't see that from any of the commerical taoist people right now. Name one if I'm wrong.

I guess what I'm saying is someone spouting taoist health stuff in their 20s and 30s is easy. Let's see how they look in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Anyway, just spouting off

[sean]

I won't ignore Ramana Maharashi so long as you don't ignore Jesus of Nazareth, who is even more universally believed to have attained divinity at birth, performed miracles as a teen and died for your sins.

I guess you have a point although I wasn't presenting the quantity of his believers as proof of his attainment, just more as support for the idea that it's not impossible for individuals to awaken early. My statement just wouldn't have been the same if I said "spyrelx you would have to ignore this guy down my street who is like 17 and I'm pretty sure is enlightened."

 

Anyway, if you haven't already you should read up on Ramana Maharshi, his words are way more powerful than statistics on how widely acknolwedged he is. (In fact, PM me if you are interested and I will lend you one of my favorite spiritual texts, Talks With Ramana Maharshi.)

 

...

 

Staying on topic, I think it's really interesting how most of us, most of the time myself included, are convinced of the near absolute truth of semen retention as pre-requisite for spiritual growth. And there seems to be a lot of evidence for this, from our own direct experiences with lowered energy and diminishing results in our practice, to the extremely common injunctions against against it in many mystical-religious texts, and even the scientific evidence supporting the significant physiological drain on the body produced by ejaculation.

 

Still I'd like to crack this subject open as much as possible.

 

First off, we should all be personally clear on what we mean when we say "spiritual progress"? What are we trying to achieve here? There are probably more answers than members since each of us has many layers of desires for why we approach this Work. I think it's important though, to be reminded every now and then to stop and clarify our highest intentions.

 

Are we seeking Wisdom? Health? Freedom? Sex? Selflessness? Power? Love? Happiness? A less bumpy ride through life?

 

Next, how does avoiding ejaculation fit into our primary intention(s)?

 

To me it seems obvious that semen retention without proper cultivation is either pointless or dangerous. Most Catholic priests don't strike me as the pinnacle of spiritual awakening and frankly neither do any of the die-hard Taoist/Buddhist "retentionists" I see online. Maybe I am being too judgemental, but I am at least twice as judgemental of my self.

 

Is it possible that we are just seriously deluding ourselves? Maybe even dangerously? Do we really have access to authentic cultivation teachings concerning sexually active retention? Is it possible that, like many ancient beliefs, retention teachings are at least partially rooted in superstition. And that we, the sexually confused West, have latched on to as dogma?

 

Is it a requirement or not? And if so, what is it a requirement for? I think these are serious questions that may be taken for granted despite how deeply the way we answer, and the attitudes, beliefs and behaviors that arise from the way we answer, impact our lives and relationships.

 

IMO spiritual progress is marked by the search for and acceptance of experiences that awaken us from the self-imposed dream of separation. Separation from what? I don't know how to word it, so I say One, Tao, God, True Self, Being, Now, Love. The impulse for physical sexual union can be thought of, metaphysically, as an impulse toward spiritual Oneness. I think the process of safely learning to experience sexual pleasure without ejaculation is a useful tool for teaching men a lesson (that they probably need more than women, especially in bed), namely the value of the Now. The value of goal-less Love. Action within Being and without lust for result. Qualities I believe are at the heart of awakening. I think the main idea is to stimulate spiritual experience, not save our load so we can be tough and maybe live 10 extra years. So at this point I'm not sure I buy the idea that ejaculation, regardless of context, and intrinsically in and of itself leads to lessened energy and spiritual regression. Maybe a lot of this draining effect has to do with our beliefs and our practice. But I'm also not quite ready to jump into Guy Johnson's experiment either. I think I'll stick with my latest jing refinement practice and also my search for the elusive Heartgasm.

 

 

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading ...

Sean.

[farooq]

Hi everyone,

 

If i understand his experience correctly, he used the kundalini energy to arrive at the stage he is in.

 

 

That stuff is far beyond the jing (the candle)

that is normally used.

 

For any of you that have experienced that energy, you know it is almost impossible to control in the beginning - so hats off to this guy for being able to use his intent to get so far so soon.

 

His 'condition' reminds me of the story in ancient times when a group of fallen angels were allowed to roam the earth and pissed off the 'normal humans' cuz they were able to have multiple ejaculations and keep going all night long with the woman.

 

The 'puny humans' were in larger number though and they got together and killed the fallen angels one by one.

 

Thanks Sean for bringing his experience to our attention.

[Cameron]

Ok a couple things. To the guy who mentioned Ken Cohen, I met Ken last year and for a 55 year old guy he appeared to be in great shape to me . Now, he is not ripped and chiselded like Pavel Tsatsouline or Randy Couteur or anything like that but he had alot of vitality, a brightness in his eyes that showed his glowing health, and a lightness of heart and sense of humor that was almost childlike. Besides, he teaches QIGONG. Relaxing meditation and maybe a little Tai Chi . Yoga as a practice is much more physical than qigong. If Ken or other qigong teacher get to a state of radiant health through there practices who cares if they have a little bit of a belly? That is more cosmetic than healthful I can go to the gym and find you 20 guys who are ripped to the bone and muscualr with out anywhere near the vitality Cohen has.

 

As far as retention. I have no doubt that retention is required to develop what you might call FULLNESS of Qi. Jing is the essential energy and foundation energy(the candle) if you don't build up alot of jing through retention how can your qi and shen develop? Besided this is no theory if I don't develop my Qi to a state of fullness(which i would define as building up your Qi through Qigong, Tonic herbs etc. that allows the 3 treasures to develop naturally) You are constantly cutting off the root of the tree . How can your tree grow without a root?

 

I don't think complete retention is necissary(Unless perhaps you are a monk or something) but ejaculating 3 times a day without restraint? No. And it is not akin to a 90 lb guy telling a strong guy he can't lift a heavy weight . Please.

[Cameron]

BTW, I didn't mean to imply the first gentleman was lying or full of crap if that is his experience fine. beleive me, If I could ejaculate all day and night without worrying about the ramifications to my cultivation I would do so also!

[thaddeus]

Ok a couple things. To the guy who mentioned Ken Cohen, I met Ken last year and for a 55 year old guy he appeared to be in great shape to me . Now, he is not ripped and chiselded like Pavel Tsatsouline or Randy Couteur or anything like that but he had alot of vitality, a brightness in his eyes that showed his glowing health, and a lightness of heart and sense of humor that was almost childlike. Besides, he teaches QIGONG. Relaxing meditation and maybe a little Tai Chi . Yoga as a practice is much more physical than qigong. If Ken or other qigong teacher get to a state of radiant health through there practices who cares if they have a little bit of a belly? That is more cosmetic than healthful I  can go to the gym and find you 20 guys who are ripped to the bone and muscualr with out anywhere near the vitality Cohen has.

 

As far as retention. I have no doubt that retention is required to develop what you might call FULLNESS of Qi. Jing is the essential energy and foundation energy(the candle) if you don't build up alot of jing through retention how can your qi and shen develop? Besided this is no theory if I don't develop my Qi to a state of fullness(which i would define as building up your Qi through Qigong, Tonic herbs etc. that allows the 3 treasures to develop naturally) You are constantly cutting off the root of the tree . How can your tree grow without a root?

 

I don't think complete retention is necissary(Unless perhaps you are a monk or something) but ejaculating 3 times a day without restraint? No. And it is not akin to a 90 lb guy telling a strong guy he can't lift a heavy weight . Please.

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Hello, I think you missed my point. I'm not saying that chisled abs means great health. Obviously we're not all going to agree on what exuberant health means. And it's not fair to really argue about who has exuberant health or not. I'm just pointing out that many of these commercial taoists really don't look the part. You're supposed to look young and vital, there are no excuses. You're not supposed to look like a 55 year old guy that looks good for his age, get my point?

There are plenty of guys out there that do *nothing* and look and feel fantastic. Which leads to my second point. All of you saying semen retention is a *must* because they are believing in this theory are just weak. Myself included, so no disrespect. I'm also looking for ways to increase this energy. We are the 90 lb weaklings complaining about it. There are people who don't feel weak and who are not requiring this retention. They naturally have an overabundance of jing, can cum several times a day for years and still look and feel young and vital. That's just the way it is. Arnold Schwarzenneger said of his competitor Lou Ferrigno, "What I could do with a body like that"..meaning he felt Lou had better raw material. THat's just the way it is. So retention is a *must* for only some people--the weaklings. I don't need to believe a theory to say this, just simple observation of my surroundings--which in essence is taoist. Taoism is not *believing* rules about jing, and shen. It's observing and learning through direct experience. Anyway, i guess that's enough yapping from my mouth..

Me

[Cameron]

I don't think you have a clear understanding at all. It is not that Taoists who are into retention or into meditation are weak. It is because they are into meditation or qigong in the first place that they can even feel that there is a loss. Young people ejaculate all over the place and don't feel a loss because A). These people don't cultivate in the first place and They don't really know what it means to have alot of qi.

 

It is not that someone who does qigong and does retention is weak, on the contrary they are probably mostly very strong . I am far stonger than most people becasue of qigong and excercise so if I ejaculate I can FEEL THE LOSS. If I stopped doing Qigong today and never worried about it again I would have probably a normal level of energy and never feel a great loss from ejaculation.

 

Actually, it's probably too late for me becasue I have felt Fullness of qi. Energy throbing up and down my channels so I couldn't just accept a 'normal' level of qi devleopment. I want to have a full supply of Qi as much as possible.

 

Most advanced qigong people say once you develop in qigong retention is better not because you will lose more qi than an avergae, non pracitioner but ebcasue you become so SENSITIVE TO THE LOSS . People who don't do qigong or meditate have no clue they are losing any qi frome ejaculation and it doesn't matter anyway since they dont' know what having a full supply of qi feels like.

 

Athletes have alot of eenrgy through excercise but it's not the same as qi develped through Qigong or meditation. I am talking about subtle energy.

 

Anyway, fun topic that's good we can start to clarify these things.

[Cameron]

However, I don't want to ignore your point that many people probably get into Taoism or qigong due to things like Chronic fatigue, weakness. What I think of mostly as depletion. Then, of course they need to rebuild there jing, practice qigong and take herbs and good food and give the body time to build the jing back up.

 

But I still think if you would ask long time Qigong practitiners the primary reason why they don't ejaculate is probably becasue they are so senseitve to the energy loss.

[spyrelx]

I really can't think of any commercial taoist person right now that looks vibrant.  Even mantak chia is showing his age (i saw him a couple months ago, sagging facial skin and dyed hair).  Now look at some of the contemporary yoga people like rodney yee.  Compare Rodney Yee and Ken Cohen.  I agree the old yoga people don't look so hot but they are at advanced ages like BKS Iyengar and the Ashtanga guy (forgot his name)...but either way, the ashtanga guy's son is a total babe magnet.  Now that's what I expect from internal training--a youthful, magnetic, overflowing sexual vitality.  I just don't see that from any of the commerical taoist people right now.  Name one if I'm wrong.

I guess what I'm saying is someone spouting taoist health stuff in their 20s and 30s is easy.  Let's see how they look in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Anyway, just spouting off 

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Chia's an interesting case. I saw him 3 years ago and he looked awesome. I also saw him 3 months ago and he didn't look great, but it was hard to tell his physical shape because he was wearing this god awful jogging suit. Someone who is close to him told me that diabetes runs in his family, and that diabetes makes you loose muscle mass. He said he thought Chia looked like he might be getting hit with diabetes.

 

About the skin, he hangs out in the Thailand sun all the time. That takes it's toll on appearance and has nothing to do with inner health.

 

About the hair. A few years ago I said on the HT board that I though chia dyed his hair. One of his inner circle, who I know and is an honest person, said they didn't think he did. I also know Masahiro pretty well, and he's probably in his late 40's (or older) and has only the faintest of gray. So I don't know.

 

What Cameron says above about Ken Cohen is well taken. Cohen is a vibrant guy. I also think guys like Winn, Masahiro, Ron Diana (pre-cancer) and even Chia (though he's quite a weird guy) come of as middle aged men with pretty good vitality.

 

Taoism is, among other things, supposed to make you live longer and better, not turn you into a model. The real issue is how physically healthy and internally vibrant these guys are in their 60's, 70's and beyond. How long do all these old yoga guys live by the way? Taoism is replete with people active into their 90's (I'm talking verifiable modern day taoism, not tales of 200 year old masters). I'm not up on my yogis.

[spyrelx]

You're supposed to look young and vital, there are no excuses.  You're not supposed to look like a 55 year old guy that looks good for his age, get my point?

 

There are people who don't feel weak and who are not requiring this retention.  They naturally have an overabundance of jing, can cum several times a day for years and still look and feel young and vital. 

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I think your dead wrong on the first point. To quote Douglas Wile: "The taoist ideal of eternal youth is the best of both worlds, a youthful glow on an old man". Everyone gets old. Everything decays. People who are out in the sun a lot look significantly older, regardless of their true condition of health. When I saw chia a few years ago he looked like a man in his 50's WHO WAS IN GREAT SHAPE. He looked his age, AND vital (in contrast to many in their 50's).

 

The point is inner vitality with a corresponding measure of superior health. It has very little to do with physical appearance other than the fact that these people (because of their inner vitality) tend to have a certain attractiveness and magnetism about them.

 

Regarding your second point, yes, there are certainly people who are born with greater stores of jing. But it is axiomatic in chinese medicine that semen loss (among other things) depletes the jing.

 

I know NO ONE who is over 30 who has the ability to ejaculate to the level they did in their early 20's.

 

I know NO ONE over 30 who ejaculates and then can just get it up and do it again.

 

I know NO ONE over 30 who is in touch with their body who says ejaculating doesn't drain them.

 

There's a lot of sexual adventurers on this site. I don't think we're all "90 pound weaklings". SEMEN RETENTION IS ENERGY RETENTION, even for people with lots of jing.

[spyrelx]

Staying on topic, I think it's really interesting how most of us, most of the time myself included, are convinced of the near absolute truth of semen retention as pre-requisite for spiritual growth. 

 

Still I'd like to crack this subject open as much as possible.

 

First off, we should all be personally clear on what we mean when we say "spiritual progress"? What are we trying to achieve here? There are probably more answers than members since each of us has many layers of desires for why we approach this Work. I think it's important though, to be reminded every now and then to stop and clarify our highest intentions.

 

Are we seeking Wisdom? Health? Freedom? Sex? Selflessness? Power? Love? Happiness? A less bumpy ride through life?

 

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Lots of good stuff in Sean's post above (I've just quoted a bit and would suggest people read the whole thing). I just want to address the above portion from a certain angle.

 

The daoist point of semen retention is NOT spiritual progress per se. It is really about building up a certain level of energy, from which you can do all manner of things.

 

Semen retention was reccomended for EVERYONE as a general health tonic. My guess is that part of this prescription was to shoot your load once in a while, so as not to get into any physical, mental or energetic trouble.

 

Semen retention for spiritual development was so that you could take the base fuel of sexual energy and convert it into another form of energy to fuel the alchemical process. "Enlightenment" and "spiritual progress" is connected to semen retention only in the same way that they are connected to eating good food. It provides the alchemist with certain raw material to move along the path, nothing more.

 

The idea that people on this board or elswhere who are big retainers don't appear any more "spiritually enlightened" or even "healthy" than anyone else is actually proof of this point. Unless you are converting all that stored jing and going through some HEAVY and consistent alchemical processes -- or frantically exercising it away (see Yoda) -- you are going to warp yourself.

 

No one that I'm aware of on this board or the HT board (myself included) appears to be consistently engaged in this sort of alchemical transformation. We are just messing with the beginnings of the process.

[Yoda]

Great post...

 

 

To that may I add that there is no need for any spiritual progress whatsoever.

 

Everyone is spot on perfect.

 

 

Very waywooway of you, Yoda.

 

Why thank you, Yoda.

[MatthewQi]

This is really quite a simple topic. Experiential understanding is different than hypothetical thoughts about what one has not experienced.

 

Guy's experience is echoed by many Kundalini awakened people and people I have met who have "gone through" all of One Clouds formulas. If you are not awakened your perspective will not be the same. This is why this topic becomes complicated for people when they hear about others saying they can ejaculate all the time and still be in bliss most of the time.

 

Actually, as I posted here before, Chia's sexual practices were not part of what he learned from One Cloud. One Cloud taught him inner alchemy - never taught him H&E or Reunion though, just gave him an outline on a knapkin with all the formulas which his wife took when the Chia's got divorced. So if you are practicing the sexual practices from HT, you are practicing a form of Tantra which is in itself a path. One Cloud did assume that one practicing his formulas had enough jing for alchemy. In otherwords had the sexual energy situation in check.

 

My later (post awakening experience) has been like Guy's. Pre-awakening it wasn't, and I needed to stop the leakage so I could successfully practice inner alchemy. Chia was quite thoughtful in his system trying to prepare one for the journey in everyway he knew. Well, that was me who need to stop the jing lose. Guy awoke years ago and I beleive is in a tantric relationship, which is in my opinion very powerful if not the most powerful experience except that with the Tao itself. This can be dual cultivation with intercourse or dual subtle body exchange without it. I still wouldn't beleive it to this day if I hadn't experienced subltle body exchange first hand which was spontaneous without any sex. This blows Kan and Li out of the water! but again this was after awakening and experienced with other awakened people and it is not sex, it is beyond sex. This happens when two or more awakened people are around each other or even place their attention on each other no matter where they are physically.

 

So this further adds to the experience of awakened ones in a loving relationship. Lucky guy!!!

 

Most people do not understand this becuase they haven't experienced it. So in summary, I am saying that there is more to the world than I or anyone knows and people have experienced what Guy describes.

 

Matt

[Cameron]

Matt, I have read you say several times that you have experienced the Tao using Internal Alchemy and then going beyong internal alchemy. If it interests you, I am sure people would enjoy it if you wrote an essay all about your experiences with the different practices and where they left off. Perhaps put it in the personal essays or create your own online cultivation journal.

 

One of the drawbacks I have experienced from those in your position(Eric Yudelove also told me he had achieved Immortality) is there is alot of talk about "being on a higher level others can't understand" just "Trusting the Tao" or some other way of explaining which honestly comes off as interesting but not neccissarily helpful.

 

Like when we had a chat in the chat room one night and I told you I do mostly Standing Meditation and you told me you don't really need Standing Meditation or anything when you merge with Tao. In any case, didn't mean to hijack the retention thread but this seems to be something you keep bringing up so if you care to ellaborate that would be interesting.

 

If not, that's fine too.

[sean]

The daoist point of semen retention is NOT spiritual progress per se.  It is really about building up a certain level of energy, from which you can do all manner of things. 

 

Semen retention was reccomended for EVERYONE as a general health tonic.  My guess is that part of this prescription was to shoot your load once in a while, so as not to get into any physical, mental or energetic trouble.

Ahhh... great clarification. Thanks for posting that.

 

...

 

So I really want to keep jing=semen conservation theory out of the "unverifiable truths" category, which is where it goes if we dismiss examples of men who are able to frequently ejaculate into their old age without complaints of energy loss as simply them being born with ... uh, unverifiably large reserves. This should still be a testable theory. At the very least a man born with enormous reserves of Jing should still be capable of being given proper instruction in how to notice the subtle energetic regression that occurs following ejaculation.

 

Also, that it's rare to find men over 30 who have not noticed the post-ejaculation energy drain phenomenon and/or who cannot perform after ejaculating does not mean jing=semen conservation theory is true. Other things could follow this fact. I would bet it's probably statistically true that men over 30 have significantly less sex (or masturbation), and therefore also statistically, less orgasms than men under 30. So this could just as easily support Guy Johnson's ejaculation=exercise theory.

 

Another consideration is that the quality of sex probably declines for many men. Decreasing comfort level in the body, more carried stiffness, pain, trauma. Lack of exercise, poor nutrition. Sex itself losing it's novelty. Same position, same partner. Increased emotional baggage. Barely bringing any consciousness to sex. Maybe these factors create the psychological and emotional context in which ejaculation becomes a drain. Doesn't Winn talk about this context-as-vital concept when he says that if you do dual cultivation correctly you can actually ejaculate with very little jing loss because you've already extracted the jing from the semen and converted it to Chi?

 

Other possibilities: What if perceived energy-drain is a result of the bliss of orgasm being in such disparity to our ordinary miserableness we experience a "coming down" effect and blame the bliss? Or what if orgasm has positive physiological virtues but that, like a raw food diet, can lead to short-term detox effects that would dissipate if we rode them out instead of misdiagnosing the problem as the orgasm itself? Or perhaps orgasm just starts to exceed our often increasingly shrinking "pleasure threshold" as adults. So we create psychosomatic symptoms around it to allow us to withdrawal from heights of pleasure we have difficulty tolerating.

 

I also want to run with the exercise analogy for a minute. Let's say you rarely ever run. Let's also say that day in and day out you see advertisements for how running is,basically, the entire point of life. It's the hottest, taboo topic in your country. Every other song is about it. You think about running all the time. The morality of running is frequently discussed. The largest religious sect in your country believes running, especially running for just the sheer pleasure of running, is a sin. Also, whenever you run, your performance is being evaluated. Now go for a run for the first time in three months in this context. Maybe you will have a fantastic run and come home energized and proud. You'll probably be sore for a few days afterwards though. And what about when your run isn't stellar? You are out of shape and you huff and puff. You cross the finish line with a whimper and trudge home. You are tired and worn out and also sore and a bit depressed for the next three days. Couldn't you eventually draw similar conclusions about running? "Only walk, never get to the endorphin high", or something ... I dunno, my analogy is kind of falling apart at the end here but I think you get my point. I think my point is that there are a ton of social, psychological and emotional factors influencing our experience of sex so it's difficult to say what is really the cause of what.

 

I'm really thinking about trying a completely insane experiment in a few weeks. Meditate / chi kung / yoga my way into a nice samadhi-buzz and then either have sex or self-stimulate for at least 30 minutes leading up to ejaculation every single day, twice a day for two weeks. I'll keep a detailed journal on what happens. I already know what happens when I have sex every day for this long without ejaculating, so in the interest of Taoist science I will be the guinea pig that puts jing and longevity on the line.

 

 

The Devil's Advocate,

Sean.