Magic

[gossamer]

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

 

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

 

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").

 

 

2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").

 

 

 

 

Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

 

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.

 

I think that magic is like electricity, or even atomic power, and can plainly be used to do good or evil.

 

I think that most chaos magic doesn't work very effectively, because most of it is done with a totally impure heart, and I frankly don't think that people who's who lives are in a mess are very effective magicians.

 

How can their words contain all that much power, if they can't tell the truth about anything?

 

Am I saying that negative magic has NO power, nope, but OK so you screw up someone's sleep, well OK, but that's not the same thing as killing them.

 

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

 

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?

 

On the other hand, to want someone to be raised to higher level of awareness or consciousness, and to have a better understanding and grasp of goodness, love, compassion, and virtue..........well, how can that NOT be a positive thing?

 

I suppose if you violate their freewill it might be, but aside from that, if you perform magic on their behalf and they are aware of it, and agree with it, then I would see that as positive magic.

 

I think these days that I find myself not drawn to ANY kind of magic, but only to more growth spiritually.

 

And I personally find spirituality, a whole different kind of critter then magic.

 

Religious Daoism seems to have a whole lot of various kinds of magic to it, and I personally find that not a part of the kind of Dao life that I'm interested in, or that I'm looking for.

 

And that's not meant as an offense to anyone on this forum either.

 

 

And maybe there's another kind of magic that I missed above, and that's defensive magic.

 

Is it either positive or negative?

 

Neither really, it's maybe a kind of shield, like the Purple Bubble that YaMu taught me.

 

It's seems that if someone aims negativity or negative (chaos) magic at you, and gets harmed in return. Well, that's not really your fault. Is it now?

 

Maybe we who are Seekers need to learn some good defensive magic, because the places that we walk are so fraught with danger, and we potentially can (or WILL) run into people that are out of balance (it's still "A Question of Balance", just as 'The Moody Blues' said so many years ago).

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts about magic.

 

It's ALL in the belief, or NOT, of both the sender, *and* the receiver.

 

Just one opinion, and I'd be interested to hear more.

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited December 28, 2008 by gossamer

[h.uriahr]

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

 

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

 

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").

2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").

Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

 

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.

 

I think that magic is like electricity, or even atomic power, and can plainly be used to do good or evil.

 

I think that most chaos magic doesn't work very effectively, because most of it is done with a totally impure heart, and I frankly don't think that people who's who lives are in a mess are very effective magicians.

 

How can their words contain all that much power, if they can't tell the truth about anything?

 

Am I saying that negative magic has NO power, nope, but OK so you screw up someone's sleep, well OK, but that's not the same thing as killing them.

 

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

 

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?

 

On the other hand, to want someone to be raised to higher level of awareness or consciousness, and to have a better understanding and grasp of goodness, love, compassion, and virtue..........well, how can that NOT be a positive thing?

 

I suppose if you violate their freewill it might be, but aside from that, if you perform magic on their behalf and they are aware of it, and agree with it, then I would see that as positive magic.

 

I think these days that I find myself not drawn to ANY kind of magic, but only to more growth spiritually.

 

And I personally find spirituality, a whole different kind of critter then magic.

 

Religious Daoism seems to have a whole lot of various kinds of magic to it, and I personally find that not a part of the kind of Dao life that I'm interested in, or that I'm looking for.

 

And that's not meant as an offense to anyone on this forum either.

And maybe there's another kind of magic that I missed above, and that's defensive magic.

 

Is it either positive or negative?

 

Neither really, it's maybe a kind of shield, like the Purple Bubble that YaMu taught me.

 

It's seems that if someone aims negativity or negative (chaos) magic at you, and gets harmed in return. Well, that's not really your fault. Is it now?

 

Maybe we who are Seekers need to learn some good defensive magic, because the places that we walk are so fraught with danger, and we potentially can (or WILL) run into people that are out of balance (it's still "A Question of Balance", just as 'The Moody Blues' said so many years ago).

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts about magic.

 

It's ALL in the belief, or NOT, of both the sender, *and* the receiver.

 

Just one opinion, and I'd be interested to hear more.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

A really cool and great man once said "whether you believe in qi or not, qi works, if someone doesnt believe it will just take a bit longer to work than someone who does believe"

[Mal]

Mostly, in my opinion, magic has to be believed in to be very effective.

 

That's the key in chaos magic, I think. Can you get someone to believe in your BS, and began to get them to doubt themselves?

 

I'd use different terminology to chaos magic, but I like your thinking.

[h.uriahr]

A really cool and great man once said "whether you believe in qi or not, qi works, if someone doesnt believe it will just take a bit longer to work than someone who does believe"

Qi can be just like a gun....

Belief, IMO doesnt affect anything.

 

If you were raised to believe guns cant hurt you and you end up getting shot...does the bullet penetrate?

[Stigweard]

Edited December 29, 2008 by Stigweard

[Mak_Tin_Si]

In Taoism, the FAAT is translated as "magic" already. The white and black is only for those in western, it is a western way of categorizing their "magic".

 

In Chinese, these western magic like wicca and witchcrafts are called "Mo Sut" 巫術, and Taoism's magic is called "FAAT sut" 法術. FAAT sut is higher than MO sut because MO sut is what FAAT sut comes from. I mean that MO sut is a more native form of magic, while FAAT sut is a more advanced form.

 

The energy used for western magic or any native magic (Mo sut) is qi from 5 elements, things on earth but nothing else higher than that.

 

For FAAT, we use energy in universe, and outside universe etc,. Which is more pure and condensed.

 

Even these magic in wicca and witchcrafts also try to call in the energy from moon and sun, it is really NOT the energy from moon and sun that they have used.

 

I do know wiccans who are in a very high level training in black magic (western style) But what they do is really not as powerful. If you compared these black magic to the "gong tau" in thailand, they are really no match. If you compare the power to taoism magic.. no need for furthur discussions.

 

The only pros about magic (wicca and witchcrafts) is that it is easy to learn and they do not have much restrictions for a person. But from experience, you gained bad health from practising these. Your health, luck and also way of thinking changed. More negative thoughts, less control over your mind.

 

 

Mak Tin Si

[Taoist81]

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

 

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

 

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").

2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").

Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

 

Your terms are off a bit here. "Chaos Magick" is simply magick performed within the Chaos Magick "system", if you can call something as disjointed as Chaos Magick a system. Most westerner magick practitioners differentiate between white and black magick depending on how the magick is used.

Aleister Crowley defined magick as "Causing change to occur in conformity to Will", with Will being a divine or True Will, not just whatever one wants at the moment. He also claimed that the union with ones Holy Guardian Angel or Higher Self was the one true goal of all magick, and that any magick performed without this as its goal was "Black Magick". So, while the want for power may draw some into the study of the occult, one cannot (as you and Mak point out) get very far without higher goals in mind.

[rene]

.

Edited August 14, 2013 by WhiteMoon

[sheng zhen]

[Stigweard]

Hello Stigweard.

 

Wonderful post! Thank you. I love the word psyhcodivertivuli

 

I have seen Tai Shi(Tai Xi is the same, right?) explained in several other places, but it seems (as always with taoism) that different teacher have different definitions. So its hard to understand what is ment by it.

 

Would you be so kind to explain a little more about Tai Shi and what it is all about? Maybe it deserves its own thread?

 

 

In my experience Tai Shi is internal qi breathing which coordinates with but is much 'deeper' than external breathing. Tai Shi follows the natural pulse, rhythm and flow of qi through the major centres and pathways.

 

There are many different methods. Perhaps accomplished qigong practitioners like Ya Mu could share their views on Tai Shi.

[maximolevel]

A friend asked me about magic the other day.

 

Most of what I've seen is magic of two kinds.

 

1. Chaos magic ("Black magic").

2. Or magic where someone is helped in raising the level of their spiritual awareness ("White magic").

Now, truly I think that I've seen more chaos magic here on the internet, then any kind of positive magic.

 

Neither do I like the terms "black" or "white" magic.

 

 

 

 

 

I do know wiccans who are in a very high level training in black magic (western style) But what they do is really not as powerful. If you compared these black magic to the "gong tau" in thailand, they are really no match. If you compare the power to taoism magic.. no need for furthur discussions.

 

The only pros about magic (wicca and witchcrafts) is that it is easy to learn and they do not have much restrictions for a person. But from experience, you gained bad health from practising these. Your health, luck and also way of thinking changed. More negative thoughts, less control over your mind.

Mak Tin Si

 

First let me say that there is not a such thing as black or whit magic! Because it is the same magic! Only amateurs use the worlds or know only the words white and black magic!

 

not only less control of mind some, have become crazy and wanted to be more crazy, because they then knew Satan powers were more stronger, in short they were not they any more

 

Regards

 

Edited December 30, 2008 by maximolevel

[maximolevel]

Magic is the occult force of nature that the magician can know and use!

Because is like a spider net everything is connected!

Magic is good and bad at the same time, only in the year 1400 whit church problems over all Europe did people begun to talk about Black magic ( that they talked or have communication whit Satan and his spirits) or White magic (people that use methods against black magic) Man in fact have a kind of war agains these Black magicians people! ( Note these were not the highest magicians!!)

 

After these period people begun in Europe to develop a magic call : magia naturalis!

 

Well if we return to the root: Magic have connections about what you think, feel etc.

 

The Magicians were in 1400 and 1500 after Christ very respectable members in society and they were very intelligent people, some read many books on the subject in their life, ( to many difficult ones like the Key of Solomon that i said before in this forum etc) They knew many languages and that is why they could read many ancient secrets found in very limited occult books! They could also read signs and strangers numbers , they knew very much about the space ( stars, planets etc) They could read the destiny of the village using the stars and many stuff!

 

They knew alchemy, they knew the power of herbs etc! So when you think about these ancient Magicians just remember they were people so much high in knowledge that we are not near or can imagine how they indeed could! Many of these secrets are gone now and are only write in books ( that little part of the big Magic part that is the no write word) many of which no body understand today, or stuff write in the walls of the piramids and place like that! Some signs are even in a unkown language!

 

They were man and women and they could in a kind of way get inspiration whit angels and knew the difference between bad and good spirits ( no human spirits) The magicians were many times in the King council and generals councils until the church begun to ( now i speaking about the area of Europe) said that only God could and give the power of goodness and from then they said that magicians were under the power of Satan and then they (the magicians) were running away and hidden themselves! Many Magic books were burn by Church people!

 

Questions and comments are very much welcome

anima mundi

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2008 by maximolevel

[sheng zhen]

In my experience Tai Shi is internal qi breathing which coordinates with but is much 'deeper' than external breathing. Tai Shi follows the natural pulse, rhythm and flow of qi through the major centres and pathways.

 

There are many different methods. Perhaps accomplished qigong practitioners like Ya Mu could share their views on Tai Shi.

I see. Thanks!

 

Then I hope Ya Mu would like to contribute too

[Ya Mu]

I see. Thanks!

 

Then I hope Ya Mu would like to contribute too

 

Sorry, guys, I know no more than what you have expressed. My Chinese language abilities suck and as such I have more tried to get the inner knowledge than the technical.

 

I believe it refers to the natural inner qi flow that occurs when we practice, or at a lessor rate, when we breathe, possibly has to do with the interaction of the permeating energy body, the energy centers, and the internal circulation. But I really don't have any particular knowledge about it. I think that , in terms of cultivation it just happens and there is no need to really consider it.

It is interesting that the KI3 point is called Tai Xi. This is a "stream point".

Edited December 30, 2008 by Ya Mu

[rex]

Aleister Crowley's Twenty-Eight Theorems of Magick have a distinct clarity about them:

 

Twenty-Eight Theorems

 

Even though I admire Crowley's intellectual brilliance I bear in mind Matthew 7:16 and don't view him as a reliable or safe source of refuge.

[thelerner]

I admire Rawn Clarks writings about Franz Bardon (abardoncompanion.com). The magical system is work. Lots of self analysis. The focus is hugely on knowing, controlling and the process of perfecting oneself. Spells and whats considered magic are by far secondary, his Magician is first and foremost a complete human being.

 

The 'trap' is by the time you've spent the years on the first few levels the desire for power and control over people and things tends to vanish

 

 

Michael

[maximolevel]

the dangerous in Magic is not knowledge but the aplications! It is ourselves that bewitch us or let us bewitch us!

 

The I Ching and the knowledge of Yin and Yang is the oldest magic in Chinese history! I guess Shamanism had also something to do whit I Ching and Yin Yang?

 

PS. all i had said in this thread about magic, i had read in the book Magia! ( a spanish book about magic, that is a translation of a book of Germany!

 

Thanks

 

[Mak_Tin_Si]

I-Ching is a theory that was made with yin and yang theory. Yin and Yang is a theory that explains nature, these are NOT MAGIC.

 

Taoism the religion used magic by using these i-ching and yin yang. Like using fu and mantras with these to achieve higher level power.

 

But I-ching and yin yang are not magic itself.

 

the dangerous in Magic is not knowledge but the aplications! It is ourselves that bewitch us or let us bewitch us!

 

The I Ching and the knowledge of Yin and Yang is the oldest magic in Chinese history! I guess Shamanism had also something to do whit I Ching and Yin Yang?

 

PS. all i had said in this thread about magic, i had read in the book Magia! ( a spanish book about magic, that is a translation of a book of Germany!

 

Thanks

 

[Stigweard]

I-Ching is a theory that was made with yin and yang theory. Yin and Yang is a theory that explains nature, these are NOT MAGIC.

 

Taoism the religion used magic by using these i-ching and yin yang. Like using fu and mantras with these to achieve higher level power.

 

But I-ching and yin yang are not magic itself.

 

Totally depends on your definition of 'magic'. For instance, the original act of translating the great changes into the I Ching triagrams could be seen as a stupendous act of magic. And I consider the Taijitu, the symbolic representation of Yin and Yang to be one of the most potent talismatic characters known to humanity.

 

But I do respect your particular point of perception in this matter.

 

Blessings,

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Maybe it is the language problem here.

 

In chinese Magic have different types.. but usually we call magic "Faat Sut" 法術

 

In western magician tricks stuff we call "Mor Sut" 魔術

 

Wicca and Witchcrft is call "Mor Faat" 魔法

 

The FAAT is the word for magic power.

 

Mor is the word for "devil"

 

That is how is it translated in chinese.

 

Totally depends on your definition of 'magic'. For instance, the original act of translating the great changes into the I Ching triagrams could be seen as a stupendous act of magic. And I consider the Taijitu, the symbolic representation of Yin and Yang to be one of the most potent talismatic characters known to humanity.

 

But I do respect your particular point of perception in this matter.

 

Blessings,

[Mal]

I admire Rawn Clarks writings about Franz Bardon (abardoncompanion.com). The magical system is work. Lots of self analysis. The focus is hugely on knowing, controlling and the process of perfecting oneself. Spells and whats considered magic are by far secondary, his Magician is first and foremost a complete human being.

 

The 'trap' is by the time you've spent the years on the first few levels the desire for power and control over people and things tends to vanish

Michael

 

Actually I though the "trap" was the good part.

 

Magic for power and control sounds cool (or scary) yet by the time you can do that sort of stuff, it doesn't seem important anymore

[maximolevel]

Edited December 31, 2008 by maximolevel

[adam mizner]

franz bardons system is exellent and it is work. for those interested a good teacher will make it acheivable.

 

it was my training in thbis system that has enabled me penatrate other systems.

 

metta

adam

 

Actually I though the "trap" was the good part.

 

Magic for power and control sounds cool (or scary) yet by the time you can do that sort of stuff, it doesn't seem important anymore

 

 

for my friends on the list, i recomend that you stay away from crowleys work.

for those of you that can see, take all look at where he is now...

 

metta

adam

 

Aleister Crowley's Twenty-Eight Theorems of Magick have a distinct clarity about them:

 

Twenty-Eight Theorems

 

Even though I admire Crowley's intellectual brilliance I bear in mind Matthew 7:16 and don't view him as a reliable or safe source of refuge.

[Taoist81]

for my friends on the list, i recomend that you stay away from crowleys work.

for those of you that can see, take all look at where he is now...

 

metta

adam

 

For some of us Crowley's work has been the most helpful of all of the systems we have come across. In Western traditions even those who despised Crowley as a person (like Israel Regardie for example) respected the depth of his knowledge and spiritual "power". For someone wishing to get the most out of the Western Tradition, his work ranks near the top, and the A.'.A.'. is among the few existing orders with real practical training under teachers who have been actually tested in their abilities (not just their memorization), possibly the only one.

 

... The magical system is work. Lots of self analysis. The focus is hugely on knowing, controlling and the process of perfecting oneself. Spells and whats considered magic are by far secondary, his Magician is first and foremost a complete human being.

 

The 'trap' is by the time you've spent the years on the first few levels the desire for power and control over people and things tends to vanish

Michael

 

This expresses the point of Magick very well. Anyone who really works on the Great Work finds this to be true.

 

Aleister Crowley's Twenty-Eight Theorems of Magick have a distinct clarity about them:

 

Twenty-Eight Theorems

 

Even though I admire Crowley's intellectual brilliance I bear in mind Matthew 7:16 and don't view him as a reliable or safe source of refuge.

 

Which fruits are you basing that judgment on?

[rex]

Which fruits are you basing that judgment on?

Those close to him got burnt: nervous breakdowns (Victor Neuburg; Leah Hirsig; Charles Stansfeld Jones); death (Raoul Loveday); suicide (Ione de Forest); madness (Rose Kelly).