Tai Shi ~ Internal Breathing

[Stigweard]

There was some interest in Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, over in the Magic thread.

 

I have seen Tai Shi(Tai Xi is the same, right?) explained in several other places, but it seems (as always with taoism) that different teacher have different definitions. So its hard to understand what is ment by it.

 

Would you be so kind to explain a little more about Tai Shi and what it is all about? Maybe it deserves its own thread?

 

In my experience Tai Shi is internal qi breathing which coordinates with but is much 'deeper' than external breathing. Tai Shi follows the natural pulse, rhythm and flow of qi through the major centres and pathways.

 

There are many different methods. Perhaps accomplished qigong practitioners like Ya Mu could share their views on Tai Shi.

 

Sorry, guys, I know no more than what you have expressed. My Chinese language abilities suck and as such I have more tried to get the inner knowledge than the technical.

 

I believe it refers to the natural inner qi flow that occurs when we practice, or at a lessor rate, when we breathe, possibly has to do with the interaction of the permeating energy body, the energy centers, and the internal circulation. But I really don't have any particular knowledge about it. I think that , in terms of cultivation it just happens and there is no need to really consider it.

It is interesting that the KI3 point is called Tai Xi. This is a "stream point".

 

If anyone has more references or relevant info then your contributions would be appreciated.

[YMWong]

There was some interest in Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, over in the Magic thread.

If anyone has more references or relevant info then your contributions would be appreciated.

 

Meaning and practice of Taixi (Embrional Breathing) changed through times in China, so most modern schools won't agree on its definition since their tradition derive from different periods.

The best research in a foreign language, thou dated, has been done by Henri Maspero in French. I guess some of his works has been translated in english too, so you might want to consider checking him out.

 

YM

[Aetherous]

Based on my experience (take it for what it's worth to you), embryonic breathing isn't a practice you can do. All that can be done is set up the conditions with other practices, which enable it to take place. It's where the breathing stops due to the energy flow, and the mind is in an enlightened state for at least a split second. In the yogic tradition it's called kevala kumbhaka. Not inhaling, not exhaling, not retaining the breath.

 

I don't know how this fits into the historical definitions. It'd be interesting to find out...

[joeblast]

when there is no turbulence in the breath, when all abdominal motion is smooth, slender, regulated, uncontrived...when the heart floats freely, radiantly....the common notion of 'breathing' is entirely different.

[sheng zhen]

Surfing around for Tai Xi and found this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ttx/ttx04.htm

[Stigweard]

Surfing around for Tai Xi and found this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ttx/ttx04.htm

 

 

An excellent find! Well done!

 

[Starjumper]

Surfing around for Tai Xi and found this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ttx/ttx04.htm

 

This seems to be the pertinent part:

 

In the Thirty-six Imbibements the first thing is that the exalation should be very slight; the inhalation very long drawn. Whether sitting or lying, this rule should be alike observed; walking and standing there should be tranquillity. Guard against clamour and crowds; avoid the odour of fish and meat. That which is metaphorically called the Respiration of the Embryo is truly called the Inner Elixir. It not only cures diseases, but confers immortality. He who continuously pursues this practice will have his name inscribed upon the Register of the Immortals.

 

So it seems to me that I've been doing this, something I discovered, and it is the kind of breathing which in me produces hot belly, which feels very pleasant. After recently energizing my heart more I found I can breath like this while focusing on my heart and it produces a feeling of warmth there, which feels NICE.

[Stigweard]

This seems to be the pertinent part:

So it seems to me that I've been doing this, something I discovered, and it is the kind of breathing which in me produces hot belly, which feels very pleasant. After recently energizing my heart more I found I can breath like this while focusing on my heart and it produces a feeling of warmth there, which feels NICE.

 

Nice

 

[Starjumper]

Any ideas about what the thirty six Imbibments means?

 

Notice it is capitalized.

 

Nice

 

I guess. I'm going to see if I can get hot belly, hot solar plexus, and hot heart all at the same time, I think I felt a hint of it earlier, should be fun.

 

To me it seems it would be wrong to feel heat higher than heart level. I don't know if it would be cool to have a hot butt though?.

[Stigweard]

Any ideas about what the thirty six Imbibments means?

 

Notice it is capitalized.

I guess. I'm going to see if I can get hot belly, hot solar plexus, and hot heart all at the same time, I think I felt a hint of it earlier, should be fun.

 

To me it seems it would be wrong to feel heat higher than heart level. I don't know if it would be cool to have a hot butt though?.

 

Thirty-six Imbibements

 

"If the breath be regulated and the saliva [properly] swallowed, the primogenial breath of the Inner Palace may be recruited. The saliva should be swallowed thrice every two hours; to swallow during the period between eleven and one at night will do still more towards the nourishment of Life."

 

3 swallows per every 2 hours through the day = 36 swallows or 'imbibements'.

 

In my training there is a specific practice where the saliva is also swallowed thirty six times.

[Starjumper]

Thanks, I did see that but didn't pay attention to it or do the math because I was looking for 'breathing' type words. My teacher also taught about 'imbibing', and in our 'formles' way it was done without saying a word or any formal non verbal teaching on it either. Learning is all about careful observation and imitation, something only masters do. Wouldn't it be nice to only have masters as students? Dream on.

[sheng zhen]

This seems to be the pertinent part:

Yes, I also had a boost in my breathing when I started doing long in-breaths. I've always had longer outbreath than inbreath. Some months ago there was some talk about here inbreath bringing yin and outbreath bringing yang. So I had to try. When I focused on long and slow inbreath my breathing surprisingly got a lot deeper and longer. My whole respiratory rythm got slower. 2 breaths a minute in meditation is no problem anymore.

Edited January 2, 2009 by sheng zhen

[joeblast]

Yes, I also had a boost in my breathing when I started doing long in-breaths. I've always had longer outbreath than inbreath. Some months ago there was some talk about here inbreath bringing yin and outbreath bringing yang. So I had to try. When I focused on long and slow inbreath my breathing surprisingly got a lot deeper and longer. My whole respiratory rythm got slower. 2 breaths a minute in meditation is no problem anymore.

Good stuff, keep going! There's some pretty interesting things that happen when you get your breaths upwards of 45, 60 seconds.

[Starjumper]

Yes, I also had a boost in my breathing when I started doing long in-breaths. I've always had longer outbreath than inbreath. Some months ago there was some talk about here inbreath bringing yin and outbreath bringing yang. So I had to try. When I focused on long and slow inbreath my breathing surprisingly got a lot deeper and longer. My whole respiratory rythm got slower. 2 breaths a minute in meditation is no problem anymore.

 

I don't know anything about that yin yang stuff as it applies to energy, I'm not sure it even exists, but it appears I discovered this type of breathing, and it is not the same as slow breathing. Could this type of internal breathing be called embryonic breathing or tidal breathing? I don't know.

 

There are times when I practice slow breathing, timing it with chaniting music so that my breaths are 15, 30, 60, or 90 seconds. I can slow it down to one breath every two minutes or 120 seconds but can only keep it up for three or four breaths.

 

If what I have been doing really is this tai shi internal breathing then keep in mind that the quality, the intent, and the focus, are different than just slow breathing. The key is where it says in the text: "the exhalation should be very slight" which is an auqward way of describing it but better than anything else I can think of.

 

The thing I'm wondering about is how it causes heat. Is hot belly supposed to be a result of internal breathing? That's what made me 'notice' this breathing, because it produced the nice feeling of heat.

 

I have read that having hot belly is part of the alchemical cauldron but I wonder how many others feel hot belly? How rare is it or how common among you practitioners out there in Taobum land?

Edited January 2, 2009 by Starjumper7

[sheng zhen]

I can feel the heat in the belly when ever I want if I visualize it. But only a few times have I felt it, like hot water or a hot glowing piece of coal, with high quality Zhan Zhuang or breathing meditation(no visualization). But its not everyday I get such high quality in my practice.... Guess my modern life turbulence is not ideal for cultivation.

[joeblast]

If you can only do that slow of a breath for only 3-4 breaths, you're extending yourself too far with zero benefit. Work on it over time and naturally get your breaths that deep and the benefits are enough to make ya double, triple take at it There's a negative feedback mechanism built into the CNS that triggers an increased heart & respiratory rate if you try to push too far too fast.

 

Embryonic Breathing....breathe like an embryo - embryos dont breathe air, but their abdominal motions help facilitate blood flow from the mother. Work yourself to that stage where you are breathing as an embryo breathes, where you no longer feel as though you are breathing, but respirating.

 

IMO the heat is from proper motion, i.e. a good abdominal breath has an energetically optimal interplay of motion of the abdomen, motion of huiyin, relaxing of rib cage and internal organs, etc..

[Mal]

I have read that having hot belly is part of the alchemical cauldron but I wonder how many others feel hot belly?

Not with a that long inbreath pattern (have not tried) but definitely feel a hot belly from tumo. For me thats a 3 breath per minute pattern, perhaps its related to the frequency of breathing and co ordination of :-

motion of the abdomen, motion of huiyin, relaxing of rib cage and internal organs, etc..

[Riyue]

There was some interest in Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, over in the Magic thread.

If anyone has more references or relevant info then your contributions would be appreciated.

in 抱朴子 Bao4pu3zi 釋滯 shi4zhi4 you can find a definition and a method for practice

....

得胎息者,

de2 tai1 xi1 zhe3

Achieving embryonal breathing

 

能不以鼻口噓吸,

neng2 bu4 yi3 bi2 kou3 xu1 xi1

one is able for not using nose and mouth for slowly breathing in and slowly breathing out

 

如在胞胎之中,

ru2 zai4 bao1 tai1 zhi1 zhong1

like the embryo is breathing in the womb

 

則道成矣。

ze2 dao4 cheng2 yi3

thus one reaches the way to manage the goal.

 

初學行氣,

chu1 xue2 xing2 qi4

beginning... further translation here:

 

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Literature/Daoists/baopuzi.html

Resolving Hesitations - look for ...When first learning

 

鼻中引氣而閉之,

bi2 zhong1 yin3 qi4 er2 bi4 zhi1

 

陰以心數至一百二十,

yin1 yi3 xin1 shu4 zhi4 yi1 bai3 er4 shi2

 

 

乃以口術吐之及引之,

nai3 yi3 kou3 shu4 tu3 zhi1 ji2 yin3 zhi1

 

 

皆不欲令己耳聞其氣出入之聲。

jie1 bu4 yu4 ling4 ji3 er3 wen2 qi2 qi4 chu1 ru4 zhi1 sheng1

 

 

常令入多出少,

chang2 ling2 ru4 duo1 chu1 shao3

 

 

以鴻毛著鼻口之上,

yi3 hong2mao2 zhu4 bi2 kou3 zhi1 shang4

 

 

吐氣而鴻毛不勤為侯也。

tu3qi4 er2 hong2mao2 bu4 qin2 wei2 hou2 ye3

 

漸皆轉增其心數,

jian4 jie1 zhuan3 zeng1 qi2 xin1 shu4

 

 

久久可以至千。

jiu3jiu3 ke3yi3 zhi4 qian1

 

 

至千則老者更少,

zhi4 qian1 ze2 lao3 zhe3 geng4 shao3

 

日還一日矣。

ri4 huan2 yi1 ri4 yi3

_________________________________

 

One has to remember, that the embryo is getting its oxygen by the breathing of the mother - and it is important to know that somebody who stops ones oxygen- supply will die. - Nevertheless this method has a great value seeing that it provides a way to breath in harmony with the rhythm of heaven and earth - seeing that the influence of heaven and earth enables us to breathe... not forcing it - just going in resonance with natural conditions - calming down - swinging in rhythm of natural heartbeat and breathing --- it is a great experience ... one gets in contact with life at its basic point...

Edited January 4, 2009 by Riyue

[Stigweard]

Also from Baopuzi 抱朴子 "The Master Embracing Simplicity"

 

８．釋滯 Resolving Hesitations

 

...When first learning to circulate the breaths, one inhales through the nose ans dloses up that breath. After holding it quietly fo 120 heartbeats it is expelled in tiny quantities through the mouth. During the exhalations and inhalations one should not hear the sound of one's own breathing, and one should always exhale less than one inhales. A goose feather held before the nose and mouth during the exhalations should not move. After some practice the number of heartbeats may be increased very gradually to one thousand before the breath is released. Once this is achieved, the ages will become one day younger each day...

[Riyue]

Also from Baopuzi 抱朴子 "The Master Embracing Simplicity"

 

８．釋滯 Resolving Hesitations

 

...When first learning to circulate the breaths, one inhales through the nose ans dloses up that breath. After holding it quietly fo 120 heartbeats it is expelled in tiny quantities through the mouth. During the exhalations and inhalations one should not hear the sound of one's own breathing, and one should always exhale less than one inhales. A goose feather held before the nose and mouth during the exhalations should not move. After some practice the number of heartbeats may be increased very gradually to one thousand before the breath is released. Once this is achieved, the ages will become one day younger each day...

 

yes - that is the translation of the chinese text given above - you have found it at the link?

[Stigweard]

yes - that is the translation of the chinese text given above - you have found it at the link?

 

Indeed I did

 

Thank you for that.

[joeblast]

Is the 'hold your breath' part of this translation...just a bad translation? IMHO 'lowering yourself down' through proper physical breath (e.g. manipulating the body in a proper manner for an 'energetically optimal' breath...for lack of, ..A term...) and doing the 'one breath' where there is no pause in between inspiration and expiration should be a much more robust way rather than forcing one's respiratory and cardiovascular rates artificially. One breath will most likely take more time to achieve results, but the results achieved will last longer and be more profound. When I focused my practice in doing that, it took me a good 2-3 months to get to the point where I could sit down, calm myself sufficiently after 5-10 minutes and have ~minute long breaths, and subsequently not really even notice that an hour had gone by, began supplanting percentages of sleep because it was more regenerating, stepped up metabolism...

 

Did I miss something?

[sheng zhen]

Also from Baopuzi 抱朴子 "The Master Embracing Simplicity"

 

８．釋滯 Resolving Hesitations

 

...When first learning to circulate the breaths, one inhales through the nose ans dloses up that breath. After holding it quietly fo 120 heartbeats it is expelled in tiny quantities through the mouth. During the exhalations and inhalations one should not hear the sound of one's own breathing, and one should always exhale less than one inhales. A goose feather held before the nose and mouth during the exhalations should not move. After some practice the number of heartbeats may be increased very gradually to one thousand before the breath is released. Once this is achieved, the ages will become one day younger each day...

Hold your breath for 120 heartbeats!!?? I dont think that is possible for us keeping a job, a girlfriend, a dog(you know, all the bad luck that disturbs us dog-owners ), watching tv, answering taobum posts and eating meat.

 

I understand better now why all the masters go into several year long retreats.

[Mal]

Hold your breath for 120 heartbeats!!?? I dont think that is possible for us keeping a job, a girlfriend, a dog(you know, all the bad luck that disturbs us dog-owners ), watching tv, answering taobum posts and eating meat.

 

And that's the beginning what about 1,000. Even assuming a rapid 60 BPM that's over 16 minutes

[rain]

If you can only do that slow of a breath for only 3-4 breaths, you're extending yourself too far with zero benefit. Work on it over time and naturally get your breaths that deep and the benefits are enough to make ya double, triple take at it There's a negative feedback mechanism built into the CNS that triggers an increased heart & respiratory rate if you try to push too far too fast.

 

Embryonic Breathing....breathe like an embryo - embryos dont breathe air, but their abdominal motions help facilitate blood flow from the mother. Work yourself to that stage where you are breathing as an embryo breathes, where you no longer feel as though you are breathing, but respirating.

 

IMO the heat is from proper motion, i.e. a good abdominal breath has an energetically optimal interplay of motion of the abdomen, motion of huiyin, relaxing of rib cage and internal organs, etc..

 

 

my personal experience is that after the experience of fire and water the embryonic breathing sets off by itself through the bodys autonomus moves in spontaneous qigong sessions, the more I do it the easier it kicks in. It seems like mucho power so I dont chase it, to say the least.

I find this article splendid. It divides embryonic breathing into two; the deep skin breathing and the deep marrow breathing, yang energy (good for autumn"/winter) and yin energy, (good for springtime) so soon it's time to breathe more in than out....

 

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=571