[Agape]

Edited December 31, 2008 by Agape

[joeblast]

there's no paradox here...within the concept of 'awake'

 

no mind isnt utterly devoid of thought. just unnecessary, fleeting thought. when one needs to ponder, by all means, do so. in moderation

[thelerner]

I think you may be over simplifying Zen's no mind philosophy. I tend to see it as being mind/thoughts/plans are tools. Good tools needed to live, but we forget to drop them.

 

If we go through life-hammer hammer hammer hammer hammer hammer hammer. We don't see whats going on around us and forget what important. They're a tool we don't need most of the time, but we've forgotten how to drop them

 

 

Michael

[Aetherous]

Third that.

[rookie]

[flow]

In and of itself thought is not harmfull. As humans, it's only natural for us to think. When thought does not distort truth there is no harm done and as you suggested, in some cases thinking is a very valuable tool.

 

The various practices are just trying to point out that thoughts used to create and support unnecessary belief structures, make justifications and provide ongoing mental commentary will be a hindrance in realizing our spirituality. A somewhat quiet mind is pretty much a basic requirement to wake up - some empty space is needed.

[exorcist_1699]

I wonder if any Zen monk goes to see a doctor because of getting a cold, and he can't cure it himself,we can still call him a master of any kind .

 

From the Taoist point of view, the minimum criterion of being called a master is his capability of freeing himself from illness and aging. Because of such view, we are criticised by some narrow-minded "Buddhists" as attaching to physical body... frogs living in a well actually can't be told the immensity of the sea .

 

In fact, when you carefully read just several pieces of Buddhist classics, you can clearly be told that attaining Enlightenment /Buddha also means free of the sufferings of life: life(sex), aging, sickness and death . However, the "Buddhists" just ignore those teachings, saying that all are illusory and unimportant .... .

 

Instead of noursishing a vigorous "dragon" from that pool of mindlessness, people are delighted at stucking in a pool of stagnant water and think that peace and unity with the universe is already attained ; how naive they are.

 

When Taoists ask seriously about the way of getting rid of noctural release of jing and its importance , their concern is dismissed by the "Buddhists" as paying too much attention to physical body .Here I can't refrain from thinking of a famous western proverb: " what I sowed were seeds of dragon , what I harvset is those louses ", maybe this is what Buddha will say.

Edited January 1, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Agape]

Interesting comments.

 

Thanks.

 

Flow, I like this particularly: The various practices are just trying to point out that thoughts used to create and support unnecessary belief structures, make justifications and provide ongoing mental commentary will be a hindrance in realizing our spirituality. A somewhat quiet mind is pretty much a basic requirement to wake up - some empty space is needed.

[Apech]

Zen is a citta mattra (mind only) / yogacara school of Buddhism which denies the essential reality of anything other than the mind (or experience). Thoughts as well as all experiences and indeed external objective reality is fleeting and transient and lacks independent and autonomous existence. There is only mind (citta) which has mental events within it. The essential nature of mind is empty (void) and it is necessary to still the mind to realize this. Mental events, thoughts, feelings and appetival drives arising in the mind do not have independent existence and are also empty, in the sense that they have no real self-hood. So ultimately the realization of the nature of the mind is not different to the realization of the nature of thought.

 

As we are in a confused state where we no longer recognise the nature of our minds and are caught up in our self centered view of reality we need to learn to settle the mind and to stop clinging to our thoughts and feelings and so on. But a blank thoughtless mind is not the goal as this would be to fall into a false duality. By stilling the mind and letting go our awareness becomes sharper and more 'discriminating' (in the sense of telling truth from b/s). Intellectual understanding and active thought processes are helpful in arriving at a clear understanding of what we are doing but should not be held on to.

[Ya Mu]

"The rational mind is a faithful servant and the intuitive mind a sacred gift. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift" Einstein

 

"The practice of Stillness-Movement awakens our sacred gifts." Wang Juemin

 

"Our minds are our worst enemies." A lot of awakened folks

 

The key is to turn the mind into our slave instead of us being the slave to the mind. By awakening to the knowledge of who we really are and attuning our "here and now" self to our Higher Level self, we realize that we are actually multi-dimensional beings simultaneously operating in many worlds. This, and not indulging in thoughts that are non-sense, such as anything whatsoever to do with yesterday or tomorrow (everything is NOW), along with aligning ourself with the Higher Levels, allows us to walk in the "flow".

[rookie]

"The rational mind is a faithful servant and the intuitive mind a sacred gift. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift" Einstein

 

"The practice of Stillness-Movement awakens our sacred gifts." Wang Juemin

 

"Our minds are our worst enemies." A lot of awakened folks

 

The key is to turn the mind into our slave instead of us being the slave to the mind. By awakening to the knowledge of who we really are and attuning our "here and now" self to our Higher Level self, we realize that we are actually multi-dimensional beings simultaneously operating in many worlds. This, and not indulging in thoughts that are non-sense, such as anything whatsoever to do with yesterday or tomorrow (everything is NOW), along with aligning ourself with the Higher Levels, allows us to walk in the "flow".

 

I agree with all you have said.

The key, however is in the doing, or being.

Not the thinking.

This is why I am adjusting my communication to reflect more actual experience rather than repeat concepts.

I'm not implying that you (or anyone else) is doing that YaMu, but that is a trap for me.

Once you become good at it, or maybe even before relating to the world through your "schema" rather than direct experience is a hard habit to break.

 

I remember a Star Trek episode where an alien species communicated in stories.

This seems to be a better way to relate experience.

I think that goes for poetry as well.

 

 

I agree with all you have said.

The key, however is in the doing, or being.

Not the thinking.

 

What I mean by that is one can hear or read words, understand them in the mind, let it become a part of your understanding or "model of the world" = schema, and stop there thinking you have it.

 

That is the thinking.

 

The doing or being is to experience it.

 

This is where communication in stories or poetry may convey a feeling, a resonance can occur. Then there is knowing through experience.

 

I'm such a rookie

 

 

 

 

Interesting comments.

 

Thanks.

 

Flow, I like this particularly: The various practices are just trying to point out that thoughts used to create and support unnecessary belief structures, make justifications and provide ongoing mental commentary will be a hindrance in realizing our spirituality. A somewhat quiet mind is pretty much a basic requirement to wake up - some empty space is needed.

 

Yes, I like that too and think the part about unnecessary belief structures and justification is particulartly true.

 

I think a somewhat quiet mind is also necessary, but that alone didn't get me there. I'm not completely sure what helped make the shift occur. But there is another component there.

[rookie]

Agape,

Are you finding that thinking about these issues is fruitful for you?

Is there a draw, a pull, something leading you in this direction?

 

Sometimes reflection, something like correlating experience with the ideas, beliefs, or mental map, can be useful at integrating my experience, or more correctly, at adjusting my map

 

But as you can tell, I'm quite into the experiental side right now.

 

I'm wondering how this is working out in your experience.

 

Peace

[Ya Mu]

I agree with all you have said.

The key, however is in the doing, or being.

Not the thinking.

This is why I am adjusting my communication to reflect more actual experience rather than repeat concepts.

I'm not implying that you (or anyone else) is doing that YaMu, but that is a trap for me.

Once you become good at it, or maybe even before relating to the world through your "schema" rather than direct experience is a hard habit to break.

 

...

 

The doing or being is to experience it.

...

T

 

I probably didn't make it clear what I was trying to say.

Everything I teach is about removing the mind from the equation. Linearity will never allow one to reach the Higher Levels. I was just pointing out that it is far better to make the mind our (the real self, not who our mind tells us we are) slave than be slave to the mind. When it is our slave instead of the other way around, we then can remove it from getting in the way.

 

The key, however is in the doing, or being.

Not the thinking.

 

Absolutely 100% agreed. That is what I was trying to say. A person can intellectualize for 10,000 years and never get anywhere. An hour of experience is worth far more.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I probably didn't make it clear what I was trying to say.

Everything I teach is about removing the mind from the equation. Linearity will never allow one to reach the Higher Levels. I was just pointing out that it is far better to make the mind our (the real self, not who our mind tells us we are) slave than be slave to the mind. When it is our slave instead of the other way around, we then can remove it from getting in the way.

 

The key, however is in the doing, or being.

Not the thinking.

 

Absolutely 100% agreed. That is what I was trying to say. A person can intellectualize for 10,000 years and never get anywhere. An hour of experience is worth far more.

 

Assuming of course that their is a "yourself" outside of the mind. If not, than your theory fails.

 

And your comment about intellectualizing for 10,000 years; You assume of course that meditation/enlightenment/cultivation are an unquailified good. If after 10,000 years of intellectualizing you come to the objective conclusion that life/existence/everything is inherintly meaningless, than an hour of experience is worth no more. It all depends on what you perceive the goal to be; while not knowing what the goal actually is.

 

And I am merely giving the other side. I think their is great value in meditation, awareness, etc. but maybe not for the same reason that you do

Edited January 1, 2009 by Anabhogya-Carya

[Ya Mu]

Assuming of course that their is a "yourself" outside of the mind. If not, than your theory fails.

 

And your comment about intellectualizing for 10,000 years; You assume of course that meditation/enlightenment/cultivation are an unquailified good. If after 10,000 years of intellectualizing you come to the objective conclusion that life/existence/everything is inherintly meaningless, than an hour of experience is worth no more. It all depends on what you perceive the goal to be; while not knowing what the goal actually is.

 

And I am merely giving the other side. I think their is great value in meditation, awareness, etc. but maybe not for the same reason that you do

 

You surely make a good point.

My experience tells me, after practicing with no particular goals, that the true self is different than what the mind tells us. I have SEEN this. But I really have not sat around for 10,000 years to determine if what I said was absolute (or at least I sure as heck hope I didn't )

 

But I wonder how 10,000 years of intellectualizing could possibly bring an OBJECTIVE conclusion, as the mind is involved. Seems to me the conclusion, because it was involving the mind, would be limited to the linearity of the mind, unless the mind superseded itself and jumped to the non-linear. In this case the conclusion, I would think, would be the same as the conclusion derived from removing the mind from the equation.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

But I wonder how 10,000 years of intellectualizing could possibly bring an OBJECTIVE conclusion, as the mind is involved. Seems to me the conclusion, because it was involving the mind, would be limited to the linearity of the mind, unless the mind superseded itself and jumped to the non-linear. In this case the conclusion, I would think, would be the same as the conclusion derived from removing the mind from the equation.

 

Well yes, I agree. Objectivity is a hard thing to come by no matter your method. The mind is a restriction, but I have problems with the self/mind separation. It is possible that the idea of an independent self, outside the mind, is merely a construct of the mind. As the mind, body, thought centers are all needed to reach such a conclusion in the first place. No doubt there is a driving energy behind the mind (i.e. electricity), but whether this constitutes a 'self' I don't know.

[rookie]

Well yes, I agree. Objectivity is a hard thing to come by no matter your method. The mind is a restriction, but I have problems with the self/mind separation. It is possible that the idea of an independent self, outside the mind, is merely a construct of the mind. As the mind, body, thought centers are all needed to reach such a conclusion in the first place. No doubt there is a driving energy behind the mind (i.e. electricity), but whether this constitutes a 'self' I don't know.

 

Hey there

I can assure you that the mind is to the true self just as the body is to the true self. Without it you wouldn't be human, or just in a vegitative state. They are both required for functioning in the world.

 

What is normally considered the self is just a collection of beliefs and thoughts. It is your "self-image" or persona, or what you think you are. Well, that can change radically. Has your true self then changed radically too? Hope not

 

I probably shouldn't have said "assure" in there, because you must find this in your experience.

 

Realize that I have not equated awareness with mind. You can be aware without thinking. Mind is what thinks as I use the word here.

 

If you try and separate awareness from the self, then you have a problem

 

peace

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Hey there

I can assure you that the mind is to the true self just as the body is to the true self. Without it you wouldn't be human, or just in a vegitative state. They are both required for functioning in the world.

 

What is normally considered the self is just a collection of beliefs and thoughts. It is your "self-image" or persona, or what you think you are. Well, that can change radically. Has your true self then changed radically too? Hope not

 

I probably shouldn't have said "assure" in there, because you must find this in your experience.

 

Realize that I have not equated awareness with mind. You can be aware without thinking. Mind is what thinks as I use the word here.

 

If you try and separate awareness from the self, then you have a problem

 

peace

 

Well thanks, but you did not solve the problem at all.

[Spectrum]

Edited January 5, 2009 by Spectrum

[Unconditioned]

In and of itself thought is not harmfull. As humans, it's only natural for us to think. When thought does not distort truth there is no harm done and as you suggested, in some cases thinking is a very valuable tool.

 

The various practices are just trying to point out that thoughts used to create and support unnecessary belief structures, make justifications and provide ongoing mental commentary will be a hindrance in realizing our spirituality. A somewhat quiet mind is pretty much a basic requirement to wake up - some empty space is needed.

 

To expand on this, when we are able to think unconditionally - without any bias of our previous experience, without the bias of future expectations (which are also built upon the past), without bias from our physical make up and dispositions, etc. Then we are able to clearly see what the next step should be, then we are able to be intuitive/creative, then we can experience true freedom.

 

As stated in the thread, we use the goals as a tool. When we've lit the match to start our fire we can throw it into that fire but the match is still useful if we're sitting in the dark shivering.

 

As far as what to think? I really don't know. I've heard some say technical knowledge is ok.. it puts food on the table, etc. but where do you draw the line of what is 'ok' to focus your energy on and what is 'not ok'? ... more division/comparison.

 

Being as I'm not in that state of non-judgment, I really don't know but I don't worry about it either.

 

...ever heard the saying "get outta your head?" physical disciplines aid spiritual cultivation by quieting dialog through coordinating the elements of your humanity into a unity or alignment, like tuning an instrument if you will....

 

... just standing... just moving... taijiquan as well as indian (movement) systems possess interwoven structure patterns of classical elements conducive to inspiring nurturing and cultivating spiritualmentalphysical growth because we are humans and these are the shoulders of art that we stand upon... to hone you as a humanbeing. qigong is the medical system used to develop health first then prowess. This is where survival mechanism is unified with the rationality of the experience. the common sense of that this the now. For instance you can not draw a "perfect circle" with your hand, but when you relax into the flow (tune) of the universal field these circles take care of themselves as a fractalization of kinesthetic movement experience, and often from an external observers perspective the practitioner "flows"... this is not "doing" rather relaxing into what does not need to be done, and what is of the utmost neccessity. these extremes, between stillness and movement create waves in our life, this means we must surf these seemingly dualistic tensions drawn between the single point of our consciousness. taijiquan and other classical movement meditation/health (and yes martial) systems refine human experience by letting go of mental dialog while continuing the physical dialog to it's absolute. Like being inthe water all day, at night you still feel the waves washing over you. Sleep well.

 

Very beautifully said, thank you

 

Edit: double post, clicked too fast

Edited January 5, 2009 by Unconditioned

[thelerner]

 

I remember a Star Trek episode where an alien species communicated in stories.

This seems to be a better way to relate experience.

I think that goes for poetry as well.

 

 

I too have learned many things from Star Trek:

 

Kill the aliens

Sleep with their woman

Play loose with the Prime Directive

 

kidding, kidding or am I.

 

I agree with you on stories. In many ways the best learning is only done through metaphor.

 

Michael

[teopakees]

I am reminded of; "the joy is in the journey".

And I too have wondered how the self ,of its self ,can deny the self ecxept for brief glimpses of the journeys end. How can one who seeks unity with "no-thing ness" unite with it by trying to leave part of it behind?

"if a tree falls...and no one hears it;does it make a sound ; is human kind truly the center,the defining quality of reality? I don't think so. If so then what meaning are we(humans) seeking? Isn't our "job" to seek virtuously ; to tread lightly our path of life leaving behind,as much as possible only good.

[Apech]

I am reminded of; "the joy is in the journey".

And I too have wondered how the self ,of its self ,can deny the self ecxept for brief glimpses of the journeys end. How can one who seeks unity with "no-thing ness" unite with it by trying to leave part of it behind?

"if a tree falls...and no one hears it;does it make a sound ; is human kind truly the center,the defining quality of reality? I don't think so. If so then what meaning are we(humans) seeking? Isn't our "job" to seek virtuously ; to tread lightly our path of life leaving behind,as much as possible only good.

 

 

IMO Being human is a function of the power that made us. Our nature is that power. If we realize this then everything we do becomes spontaneously 'good', in the sense of good for something - but not in the sense of the duality of good and evil.

[Agape]

Some good replies here.

 

Yea I like tai chi cos of its 'all inclusive' nature, being the 'supreme utimate' and all youd expect it to be if it li es up to the name .

 

'IMO Being human is a function of the power that made us.' I haden't thought of it like that before. In this way I guess 'God' is always with us we just need to tune into the correct frequency.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Agape

[Stigweard]

Does a seedling 'plan' on becoming a mighty oak? Or does the joyful expression of it's true nature make it so?