Sexuality and Taoism

[Vigilant3]

Hello All

 

I am wondering what the taoist practice is generally for sexuality. I have staved off sexuality so much mentally, that i've caused problems in my social life (I think). Even when I am in a relationship with an attractive woman, I can't always seem to find a way to become interested in sexuality. I find it more productive to do something else... which is odd

 

I guess what I would need in order to rekindle my sexual energy, is to feel that sexuality is accepted and encouraged through taoist practice. Is there anything anyone can share on this subject? I know the question/comment is a bit odd... but I really would like to break the mental confusion I have about sexuality and whether it should be fully embraced or denied. I guess i'm too black and white in my mentally which I am slowly changing.

[Riyue]

Hello All

 

I am wondering what the taoist practice is generally for sexuality. I have staved off sexuality so much mentally, that i've caused problems in my social life (I think). Even when I am in a relationship with an attractive woman, I can't always seem to find a way to become interested in sexuality. I find it more productive to do something else... which is odd

 

I guess what I would need in order to rekindle my sexual energy, is to feel that sexuality is accepted and encouraged through taoist practice. Is there anything anyone can share on this subject? I know the question/comment is a bit odd... but I really would like to break the mental confusion I have about sexuality and whether it should be fully embraced or denied. I guess i'm too black and white in my mentally which I am slowly changing.

 

you can find people like mantak chia who think sexuality as help

and you can find schools thinking chastity as necessary...

-

using your sane mind you can conclude :

you can find harmony of yin and yang by balancing both.

nature has given yin and yang - it is against nature to say no to one part...

-

that is the key for me:

swing for balance

[altiora]

Hello All

 

I am wondering what the taoist practice is generally for sexuality. I have staved off sexuality so much mentally, that i've caused problems in my social life (I think). Even when I am in a relationship with an attractive woman, I can't always seem to find a way to become interested in sexuality. I find it more productive to do something else... which is odd

 

I guess what I would need in order to rekindle my sexual energy, is to feel that sexuality is accepted and encouraged through taoist practice. Is there anything anyone can share on this subject? I know the question/comment is a bit odd... but I really would like to break the mental confusion I have about sexuality and whether it should be fully embraced or denied. I guess i'm too black and white in my mentally which I am slowly changing.

 

 

Well it depends by what you mean by "sexually". I know this is the sort of smarty pants thing to say. But I think it's very important we get clear about it.

 

I'll tell you why: I stumbled some work some years back when I was doing my thesis on disability and the law. It had nothing to do about that topic other than disability. It was a study examining sexual responses in people paralyzed from the waist down. The amazing thing they discovered was that they were fully sexual beings. The popular cultural assumption was that they had to be asexual due to the disability. Not so said the evidence of disabled peoples' lives. The fact that they had no response in the genitals was no impediment to have fulfilling sexual lives. The reason being is that many of them had developed such sensitivity to touch in the sensate areas of their bodies -- indeed some were able to have the seemingly mythical body orgasm.

 

Now the reason I mention this is that currently people equate "sexuality" with genitals. As the study I've just been referring to indicates, this is a load of nonsense -- sexuality is about intimacy, of which genital can play a negligible, and (in some cases) no, role.

 

So returning to your question: when you say you need to rekindle your "sexual energy" do you mean as expressed through the genitals? If so, then perhaps you might like to first explore the possibility that sexuality can be expressed in other ways and ways that you might be more comfortable with.

 

Just a thought. I'm all for challenging our western culture's obsession with genitals -- whether of the "they're the fruit of satan" or the "they're the fruit of Eden" schools of thought.

 

For my two cents worth advice: forget Chia and fancy Taoist practices, light those candles, sit facing one another, gaze into her eyes, and just recall EVERY blessing she's bought you, and then embrace until your breathing and heart beats are united. If you or her can't be content with that, then I'm afraid that there's nothing one could ever be content with.

Edited January 4, 2009 by altiora

[markern]

Very interesting Altiora!

 

 

I am no expert on Taoism but I do know that there is definitively a room in it for using sexuality to your benefit in culivation. By having orgasms that are non ejaculatory one keeps the energy wich is normaly lost through ejaculation (a lot) and that energy has tremendous benefit for ones cultivation. Meditation for example quickly becomes deeper.

 

There apears to be disagreement over wether the most efficient thing energy wise is to abstain completly from sexuality or wether it is more efficient to have non ejaculatory orgasms. What is clear is that it is more efficent to be celibate than to have ejaculatory orgasms. However if you practice retention of sperm and have multiple orgasms you get some benefits wich you do not get from celibacy. By having such powerfull energy cursing through your body and by bringing the orgasmic energy higher up in the chakras thereby transforming it to a different more subtle kind of orgasm you are actualy doing work on opening and cleansing your energy body. If you are also able to circulate and transform the energy to a less dens form (sexual energy is very dens and crude and yang and difficualt to deal with) you will have more beneficial energy than if you did not have an orgamsm at all. Circualting energy in general is benefical. If you your partner also learns some taoist techniques you can practice dual cultivation. This can be very beneficial and quickens your path especialy because you will benefit a lot from her Yin energy. I would therefore argue that sexual activity with good technique is a faster path than celibacy.

 

In AYP people talk about three different types of orgasms. Ejaculatory. multiple orgasms without ejaculation and pre orgasmic sex. THe difference between normal multiple orgams and pre orgasmic sex is that in pre orgasmic sex on stays further away from teh edge of orgasm. This creates blissfull streaming sensations without the extra bang of a conventional multiple orgasm. These sensations becomes more subtle than the normal orgasms and generaly gets you into the higher chakras and feels more spiritual in nature. Most people find the pre orgasmic sex more fullfilling and pleasurable than the normal multiple orgasms. The pre orgasmic sensations once you get realy into them in a way is a kind of orgasm only less explosive and more spiritual. Many people in AYP find that ejaculatory orgasms make them lose a lot of energy, dry multiple orgasms makes them lose a little bit and pre ejaculatory sex increases their energy and makes it more subtle and spiritual. However, many people find that conventional multiple orgasms increases their energy as well. IT apears to me that the more advanced one is on the path the more likely it is conventional multiple orgasms and even ejaculatory orgasms are not especialy draining and might even give more energy. My theory is that those very advanced even without knowing it actualy circulates the energy so well that even ajacualtion does not lead to much loss of energy. In general in AYP pre orgasmic sex and tantra is seen as beneficial for the spiritual path. The word in yoga wich is often taken to mean celibacy is Bramacharya. However, Bramacharya actualy does not mean cellibacy but conservation and cultivation of your energy for a higher purpose, reaching samadhi. An active sex life with the right technique will often do this job better.

 

Beyond the mere energetic there are more philosphical views of sexuality that can put it in a more beneficial spiritual light. In Sufism and Kabbalah sexuality, love and intimacy between couples and orgasms is viewed as divine because although not the same as the true divine love and bliss of enlightenemnt and god it is closer to it than other human experiences and points in this direction. They also have the view that the "small" love of two people are training for the big love of one person towards the whole of humanity.

 

There are also plenty of budhist traditions where monks after a time are alowed to mary, have sex and have children while still being a monk. In Zen this is normal and not uncommon in India either. The revered Zen master Shunryui Suzuki was married. Also enlightened yoga master B.K.S. Iyengar was married untill his wife died and he belives sexuality should continue after enlightenment. Krisnamacharya, the father of modern yoga was married with children and his son the famous yoga teacher Desikachar says that sexuality and family life should continue after enlightenment.

 

I have personaly not seen a shread of credible evidence that the desire for sex ever dispaers naturaly by itself even at the highest levels of enlightenment. Actualy the evidence points in the other direction since a huge number of monks officialy recognized as highly enlightened and preaching celibacy has been found to be fucking their students. Spritual teachers Jack Kornfield interviewed over 50 masters of meditation and their students about sexuality. I don`t remember the exact numbers but around 10 were in fact celibate. The rest, while usualy preaching celibacy outwardly still had active sex lives. Some of them were married and faithfull, some married and cheating, some openly promiscuos, some were gay, some had kinky sex lives some did not. In general Kornfields conclusion was that these teachers were no more enlightened in their sex lives than most people and the reason was that they had kept sexuality out of their spiritual practice and therefore not realy worked on evolving it spiritualy.

 

Anyway desire does not die at enlightenment, clinging to desire does. There is a story of the budha sitting and admiring a beutifull flower, realy soaking in its beuty, when he had to go and do something else however, he did not experience the suffering conected to clinging to his desire for beauty. I belive this is a good illustration of what enlightenment does with desire in general. Since it does not take it away one enjoys what there is to enjoy in life, sexuality for example, however one does not cling to it and so does not experience the suffering connected with being attatched to having the desire fullfilled. There is a huge difference between detatchment and non attatchment. Detatchement removes any feeling towrds an object what so ever, in ieffect it makes you cold and machine like. Non attatchemnt just makes you not cling and hold on to things.

 

I realy recommend you read a wise heart by Jack Kornfield about budhist psychology. It clears up a lot of these misunderstandings. A path with heart and after the exctacy the laundry are also very good but I think especialy a wise heart would be good for you to read to clear up musconceptions about what eastern spirituality (at least budhism) actualy thinks about desire and attatchment.

 

I also reccomend you read what Daniel Ingram says about models of enlightenment in his free e-book. You can find it by googling him.

Edited January 4, 2009 by markern

[Vigilant3]

 

 

Well it depends by what you mean by "sexually". I know this is the sort of smarty pants thing to say. But I think it's very important we get clear about it.

 

I'll tell you why: I stumbled some work some years back when I was doing my thesis on disability and the law. It had nothing to do about that topic other than disability. It was a study examining sexual responses in people paralyzed from the waist down. The amazing thing they discovered was that they were fully sexual beings. The popular cultural assumption was that they had to be asexual due to the disability. Not so said the evidence of disabled peoples' lives. The fact that they had no response in the genitals was no impediment to have fulfilling sexual lives. The reason being is that many of them had developed such sensitivity to touch in the sensate areas of their bodies -- indeed some were able to have the seemingly mythical body orgasm.

 

Now the reason I mention this is that currently people equate "sexuality" with genitals. As the study I've just been referring to indicates, this is a load of nonsense -- sexuality is about intimacy, of which genital can play a negligible, and (in some cases) no, role.

 

So returning to your question: when you say you need to rekindle your "sexual energy" do you mean as expressed through the genitals? If so, then perhaps you might like to first explore the possibility that sexuality can be expressed in other ways and ways that you might be more comfortable with.

 

Just a thought. I'm all for challenging our western culture's obsession with genitals -- whether of the "they're the fruit of satan" or the "they're the fruit of Eden" schools of thought.

 

For my two cents worth advice: forget Chia and fancy Taoist practices, light those candles, sit facing one another, gaze into her eyes, and just recall EVERY blessing she's bought you, and then embrace until your breathing and heart beats are united. If you or her can't be content with that, then I'm afraid that there's nothing one could ever be content with.

 

Sage advice, thank you kindly for your response. I believe you are correct with relation to there being more to sexuality than genital stimulation. Perhaps I am locked into that view. I feel maybe I am psychologically cognizant of what you are saying, but because I have been "trained" by society to view sexuality as an emotional connection, I am unsure how to. I would very much like to learn any practices there may be to deeper explore sexual intimacy beyond intercourse. If you have any further concepts I would be eager to listen

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway desire does not die at enlightenment, clinging to desire does. There is a story of the budha sitting and admiring a beutifull flower, realy soaking in its beuty, when he had to go and do something else however, he did not experience the suffering conected to clinging to his desire for beauty. I belive this is a good illustration of what enlightenment does with desire in general. Since it does not take it away one enjoys what there is to enjoy in life, sexuality for example, however one does not cling to it and so does not experience the suffering connected with being attatched to having the desire fullfilled. There is a huge difference between detatchment and non attatchment. Detatchement removes any feeling towrds an object what so ever, in ieffect it makes you could and machine like. Non attatchemnt just makes you not cling and hold on to things.

 

I realy recommend you read a wise heart by Jack Kornfield about budhist psychology. It clears up a lot of these misunderstandings. A path with heart and after the exctacy the laundry are also very good but I think especialy a wise heart would be good for you to read to clear up musconceptions about what eastern spirituality (at least budhism) actualy thinks about desire and attatchment.

 

 

Thank you for your posting. I enjoyed the comparison of non-attachment vs. detachment. How would you say this applies to physical intimacy? Are you implying that one should view the sexual pleasure as something one takes in at a spontaneous moment, and that we should not be focusing on it during the day or otherwise when the other partner involved is not present?

[markern]

 

Thank you for your posting. I enjoyed the comparison of non-attachment vs. detachment. How would you say this applies to physical intimacy? Are you implying that one should view the sexual pleasure as something one takes in at a spontaneous moment, and that we should not be focusing on it during the day or otherwise when the other partner involved is not present?

 

I think one should basicly just be aware. If you are having sexual thoughts be aware of it and everything else that is happening at the time. If you are having sexual thoughts and shamefull feelings be aware of that and everything else that happens in that moment. If you are having sexual desire and are enjoying it withoput any shame just be aware of that etc. That would be the basic aproach. Then one can differentiate between more wholesome and unwholesome desires. Budhist psychology says one should try to let go off unhealthy desires and keep and cultivate healthy desires but hold them lightly (not cling to them). If your sexual desires are for your partner just let them be and cultivate them. If they are for the 17 year old babysitter try to let go off them. Repressing them however would be damaging no matter what. What to do is much better explained in Kornfields book than I can explain. In general I would not take advice on sexuality from monks and other celibate reclusive people but rather from practicing householders like Desikachar, IYengar and Kornfield.