Kunlun/Yogani

[TTT]

At the moment I am doubting which path I should follow. It will be either Kunlun or Yogani. They

both seem appealing to me. I will put the most important pros and cons beneath.

 

Pros Yogani:

1) You constantly feel being in love and you see the whole world as such. You have

much love for others. I think divinine love is the highest englightment you can get?

 

Cons:

Its a very long path and requires long practises. I like a "quick quick" path like the Kunlun practises.

 

Pros kunlun:

Quick path, seems to be the fastestes and a complete englightment according to Max.

 

Cons:

Does he mean you will get a feeling of divinine love? What does he mean with enlightment? Does he mean only great bliss, is that bliss comparable with divinine love?

 

In the end I think I still have questions and desires after these enlightments, but these two paths seems most applicable and valuable to me. My main question to you is thus what the real differences are between the Yogani and Kunlun path, I hope you could help me out.

[Yoda]

You can't go wrong. Maybe give them each a month and see how it goes. I know of great success stories with both. Done both about a year each. K is funner imo.

[thelerner]

I have respect for both. Personally I find kunlun to be a good side practice. Its nice and fast, no studying. It feels like it burns off excess tension in my body and gives a sense of peace.

 

But that fast no studying is also its weakness. Yogani's system is one of learning and bettering yourself. There is much progression and self learning. Thats indespensibly important. He teaches a well rounded system and is available online for questions, his many students are too. His path in some ways is well worn (some ways its not).

 

In Kunlun there's little instruction other then seminar and book. There is good feedback on the Kunlun site and a mixed bag here .

 

So..unless you feel a very strong kunlun attraction, I'd say first go Yogani. Give it a long honest period and you're sure to see results (though highest enlightenment may be a few lifetimes away ).

 

I'd also say later when its convenient you should go to a Max seminar. It should be experienced, its high energy, nice people and totally different, that you can choose to do or not.

 

You'll get more from it, by experiencing Yogani's system. Kunlun has plenty of lift to it, but Yogani is a very strong platform.

 

Michael

[TTT]

Quote:

You can't go wrong. Maybe give them each a month and see how it goes. I know of great success stories with both. Done both about a year each. K is funner imo.

 

 

I am not doing them for fun. I want to know what the ultimate reality is. I am confused.

Enlightment must be a state where you know that ultimate reality, where you do not seek

any other things anymore. It has to be union with God in Love, what else could you seek more?

 

But to me it seems that Kunlun does not provide this. I have bought his book, I have read many topics here on taobums and besides kunlunbliss.com as well. But it seem to be different.

 

Kundalini is sex energy. I know that sex energy has to do with love (also with a woman) This is why you have to save your sex energy in Yogani's path (divine love). Everything is internal Yogani says.

 

But the Kunlun path doesn't talk about an ultimate reality. And it is not kundalini energy as well. Max is married and in his practise you need a girl to "open up". To me this does not seem as an ultimate reality like Yogani (divine love). So is Max enlightment to a lesser extent?

 

Max talks about great magnetic potential. He talks about vacuum energy from the zero point field. But Yogani talks about making vacuums as well. The higher chakras in vacuum attract the kundalini energy from lower chakras. If it is still an other energy which Max uses I totally lose my mind. How many energies are there? Does every other energy provides you with an other enlightment?

Edited January 5, 2009 by TTT

[de_paradise]

I'd do a KAP first, while relaxing with Yogani, and trying out Kunlun. I dont think your pro's and con's list will matter much when you get going and your understanding changes. The reason for KAP first is to get the Kundalini ignited earlier. This is a more daring path however. Love works, that can start now.

[TTT]

I'd do a KAP first, while relaxing with Yogani, and trying out Kunlun. I dont think your pro's and con's list will matter much when you get going and your understanding changes. The reason for KAP first is to get the Kundalini ignited earlier. This is a more daring path however. Love works, that can start now.

 

Thank you a lot. I have read some of your daily experiences. Your world looked like the mine sometimes : )

A mess! Altough I am interested in spirituality for only 3/4 year. That is why I want to follow a stable route now.

 

However, I have a question, what does KAP mean? Are you are saying that I should mix Kunlun and kundalini? Thats not good advice according to Max.

Edited January 5, 2009 by TTT

[Trunk]

~ side note ~

Kundalini is sex energy.

Wha???

Kundalini does not = sex energy. Kundalini is a vast primordial energy that enters the human form near the base of the spine, below the sexual center. It's just that it happens to pass through the sexual area, very near-by, on it's way up. They are not identical. For instance, just because one feels sexy, that does not mean that "kundalini is awakened" nor that one is manipulating kundalini.

[TTT]

Yoda and Michael thanks a lot as well! I am going more in for Yogini system now!

 

 

~ side note ~Wha???

Kundalini does not = sex energy. Kundalini is a vast primordial energy that enters the human form near the base of the spine, below the sexual center. It's just that it happens to pass through the sexual area, very near-by, on it's way up. They are not identical. For instance, just because one feels sexy, that does not mean that "kundalini is awakened" nor that one is manipulating kundalini.

 

Yogani says himself that kundalini is sex energy. I had confusions about this as well, but now I have seen Yogini writing about it, I think it is just sex energy. I quote him from a book. You should see lesson 54 in the content. This lessons is called: "Kundalini a code word for sex". I thought I had read it somewhere else as well, but I cannot find that so fast.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KdpoNv07E...result#PPR10,M1

Edited January 5, 2009 by TTT

[de_paradise]

Thank you a lot. I have read some of your daily experiences. Your world looked like the mine sometimes : )

A mess! Altough I am interested in spirituality for only 3/4 year. That is why I want to follow a stable route now.

 

However, I have a question, what does KAP mean? Are you are saying that I should mix Kunlun and kundalini? Thats not good advice according to Max.

 

 

When you start a practise, you may find your phenomena or path may take its own course. I started with kundalini. (KAP is kundaliniawakeningprocess.com taught by our own beloved Vajrasattva, and I have not taken, but do know that his powerful transmissions plus the qigong techniques will get the K going fast) Max only says mixing the practises simultaneously is wrong, not the kundalini shakti energy with kunlun energy. I think you can decide your own pace after you get more experience with the methods and how your body responds. Its impossible to know in advance.

[Trunk]

I stand by my previous statement. No disrespect meant towards Yogani and his generally excellent writing.

[Hawk Over Water]

I thought that I would chime in here as I did alot of AYP and have just finished KAP. I found that AYP did get my kundalini going, but because they dicourage all that is "under the hood" and dicribe all experiances as "scenery" - to be enjoyed but not paid much attention to, I was suffering more and more from chi sickness. I joined KAP out of desperation, and Tao sorted me out in no time, and I have learned much useful stuff in the meantime. With all due respect to yogani, I vote for KAP - there is nothing like having a personal instuctor to help you understand what is happening to you when Shakti starts to awake.

[TTT]

Thank you guys, I am going to look out at kundaliniawakeningprocess.com as well.

Altough the prices for all three levels together >$700 is expensive for a 19 year old student.

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[Hawk Over Water]

Thank you guys, I am going to look out at kundaliniawakeningprocess.com as well.

Altough the prices for all three levels together >$700 is expensive for a 19 year old student.

 

Who says you have to do all three levels? Try KAP1, see how you get on. KAP1 is all you need to get going. Think of it as $25 a lesson for 3 months, with skype and email support.

 

[TTT]

Quote:

Who says you have to do all three levels? Try KAP1, see how you get on. KAP1 is all you need to get going. Think of it as $25 a lesson for 3 months, with skype and email support.

 

 

Oke, that is a good idea. In general I have learned from this topic that I should choose my own

ways to enlightment and that different paths fits different people better. Mixing some practises could

help as well.

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[freeform]

Kunlun is a mainly downwards path.

 

When I do K1 practice the energy and vibrations start in the stomach. It gets very hot - the energy is intense and feels like lightning... then my stomach muscles start pumping and the energy moves up to the heart - this is when I tend to perform strange, intricate movements and get into different positions - this is where the big Love you talk about resides.

 

The overall path is a downwards flow - there is a practice that Max teaches that begins this flow - so even though in K1 the energy flows up from the belly to the heart, with the other practices added there is a general flow from the top of your head downwards... the downwards flow is cool and 'magnetic' - sometimes it meets with the hot energy in the heart and 'steaming' occurs.

 

So energetically speaking the heart is a major focus. As a 'quick quick' path the 'problem' is that very quickly you will be challenged with whatever is not Love inside - and this is can be frightening, confusing, painful etc.

 

The bliss comes from an open, vibrating, loving heart... if you're content with that, then that's fine, or you can go on further - the ultimate destination is said to be the Golden Dragon Body - similar to Rainbow Body...

 

You've had some great advice - I just wanted to add that connecting to divine Love is definitely part of the Kunlun path - it's just not as easy as it sounds.

 

If I was not doing Kunlun I would definitely be doing KAP!

 

[TTT]

Kunlun is a mainly downwards path.

 

When I do K1 practice the energy and vibrations start in the stomach. It gets very hot - the energy is intense and feels like lightning... then my stomach muscles start pumping and the energy moves up to the heart - this is when I tend to perform strange, intricate movements and get into different positions - this is where the big Love you talk about resides.

 

 

Thank you very much for this advice. I get a lot of good advice here on taobums. I really see the value

of a community connecting together for sharing such "obscured" knowledge.

 

In autobiography of a yogi, Yogananda tells about the ultimate. He says that it is merging with the consiousness of God. It seems pretty similar to merging with the Tao and I have read about the same description in an African religion (I thought it was merging with the Tongo or something) To me it seems logical that this could be the ultimate state (if there is one of course) In this state you loose your ego in the ocean of (divine) awareness. My question now is if the rainbow body is comparable to this state?

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[freeform]

He says that it is merging with the consiousness of God. It seems pretty similar to merging with the Tao and I have read about the same description in an African religion (I thought it was merging with the Tongo or something) To me it seems logical that this could be the ultimate state (if there is one of course) In this state you loose your ego in the ocean of (divine) awareness. My question now is if the rainbow body is comparable to this state?

 

With all due respect to Yogananda, from my very limited understanding the 'merging with God' is not the ultimate.

 

I'm no scholar but from what I understand once you've merged you can then become individuated again, but now as a microcosm of God.

 

Like a drop of water returning to the ocean - then re-emerging as a drop containing the whole of the ocean.

 

 

But this is all conjecture and has as much relevance to us as when 4 year olds saying what they want to become when they're older.

[Yoda]

Ah... choosing between AYP, KAP, and Kunlun!!

 

What a happy day we have arrived at!!!

[TTT]

Ah... choosing between AYP, KAP, and Kunlun!!

 

What a happy day we have arrived at!!!

 

I see, I am indeed very happy I have found the spiritual life and this website. Besides I could even choose out of these wonderfull spiritual paths! Now I need to start the practise.

 

With all due respect to Yogananda, from my very limited understanding the 'merging with God' is not the ultimate.

 

I'm no scholar but from what I understand once you've merged you can then become individuated again, but now as a microcosm of God.

 

Like a drop of water returning to the ocean - then re-emerging as a drop containing the whole of the ocean.

But this is all conjecture and has as much relevance to us as when 4 year olds saying what they want to become when they're older.

 

Hmmm this seems pretty difficult indeed. Thanks anyway and I understand Yogananda has no authority on the spiritual life, although I very much like the autobiography of a yogi.

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[fiveelementtao]

I am not doing them for fun. I want to know what the ultimate reality is. I am confused.

Enlightment must be a state where you know that ultimate reality...

 

Put on the brakes! Wanting to know the "ultimate reality" is a huge red flag. You already are in ultimate reality. It would be best not to do anything until you gain some comfortability with yourself! Kunlun, kundalini yoga, or any other spiritual discipline is JUST A TOOL. There is no such discipline that will lead you to ultimate reality. You are already a part of ultimate reality. If you go into any discipline looking for "ultimate reality" you will be either very disappointed or easily deceived.

 

Kundalini is sex energy.

 

This is not accurate. Kundalini is NOT sex energy. I would suggest more study about different energy paths. Each energy, whether it is kundalini or Chi or what have you have very different vibrations and achieve different results. If you mix certain energies, it can be harmful. If you are confused... take your time. there is no timer. If you feel like you need to rush to make a decision on which path to take, this indicates a desperation that is unhealthy.

 

Take your time and maybe take a path for now which does not involve a powerful energy experience. These energy paths are not a super happy pill. They are serious business. I have seen alot of people with emotional issues seek to use energy paths as a way to run away from their personal issues and it only made them nuts. and eventually when reality kicked back in (because it will) they were much worse off than before... With powerful energy paths it is extremely important that one already have the tools to handle their emotions. Because powerful energy exercises can increase emotional states. If you are running from emotions they will be brought to the surface much faster....So, take your time... investigate why you feel the need to find ultimate reality so quickly. Get comfortable with yourself first, then choose a pathway based on a place of stability.... And in your case, I strongly suggest a path where you can have access to a teacher in your area who can guide you.

[TTT]

Put on the brakes! Wanting to know the "ultimate reality" is a huge red flag. You already are in ultimate reality. It would be best not to do anything until you gain some comfortability with yourself! Kunlun, kundalini yoga, or any other spiritual discipline is JUST A TOOL. There is no such discipline that will lead you to ultimate reality. You are already a part of ultimate reality. If you go into any discipline looking for "ultimate reality" you will be either very disappointed or easily deceived.

 

I am seeking the ultimate reality because I see reality shape shifting so often. I have been grown up with science and after I discovered that life is spiritual as well and after doing yoga for more than half a year, I have seen strange things happen (miracles). So now my view of reality is even more changed. So I have started asking what the whole spiritual life is about. What is the reality? How does the world works? Is life just a dream? Why can people change worldy happenings just by their thoughts? What is the relation between inducing altered states by drugs and spiritual practises? Is there something as a God? What is the end of the spiritual life or does it change shape just like any dream? Various systems offer a ultimate reality, but for me it seems hard to find it. That is why I am still looking for it. You say we are already living in the ultimate reality, but what happens after death?

 

In fact I am not rushing into a system. I have been looking for a good system for almost half a year.

I just liked to receive taobummers' opinons on it. I received them and I am very thankfull for them.

 

But still I think I just need to begin somewhere. The spiritual life is more about practising and not just reading This is why I think I need to begin with a valid path. At the moment I prefer KAP, so I think I begin that path soon. I have experienced with kundalini already for some time on my own, but I think I need a teacher indeed. However, there are no teachers in my place (Netherlands) as far as I know, thus distance learning seems to be a valid option. (http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com)

 

About my emotions. That is indeed sometimes hard. The hardest part are the wet dreams, because they are very dissatifying in it self, but they also increase sexual desire for the next couple of days. I usually fail after three weeks or so.

 

Besides I sometimes disconnect from the world because my family and friends seem to live in a world which is based on illusion (as I try to find out what is not illusion) But on average, I have not really problems with my emotional control.

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[Taomeow]

Gopi Krishna defines kundalini energy as "evolutionary energy." Which is similar to the concept of "gong," as in, e.g., qi gong, far as I can tell. Kundalini or qi gong, we're facilitating our evolution by means of qi cultivation.

 

Now kunlun energy is something else and the stage I'm at clearly indicates to me that it isn't something that "is" but something that "does"

 

and what it does is, it unblocks the energy of yi -- as in Yi Jing, aka the I Ching, the energy of irregular changes. (We are changed from our evolutionary blueprint, we are not what we would be if we were fully what we are... I don't mean "fully" as something metaphysical, I mean, as human beings. We aren't fully human due to irregular changes that happened to us and/or were perpetrated by us, or by someone/something else who molested our collective and/or individual destiny, or all of the above.) Which is different from regular changes of tao that are business-as-usual, the law and nature of tao-in-motion -- cyclic, seasonal, cosmic-seasonal (conception, growth, fruition, consummation in the grand scheme of things), eternal and so on. Yi of the Yi Jing refers to changes in the human being and the human society that are locally-irregular and at odds with the universally-regular changes. That's what the Yi Jing/I Ching navigates one's mind through, and that's what kunlun navigates one's body through before getting elsewhere. The energy of this elsewhere is the energy of tao-as-business-as-usual regular. (Or, to put it differently, meaningful at all times.) It is the energy of "what tao does," and it can't really be defined in terms of what it "is." It isn't an "is," is what it is.

 

So... kunlun will unblock the irregular changes that have occurred in someone, these will release tremendous energy, this energy will be gone, outta here, no need for the energy of repression anymore, thank you, let go, let's go elsewhere. Elsewhere... that's where things start getting interesting. The caveat of the quick-quick path being that people who aren't "elsewhere" AT ALL yet tend to jump the gun, believing they "already" are. Which may result in great confusion... a grand delusion... but these are dangers of ANY powerful practice, they are not kunlun-specific. "The path is steep and narrow and sharp as the razor's blade."

Edited January 6, 2009 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

Put on the brakes! Wanting to know the "ultimate reality" is a huge red flag. You already are in ultimate reality.

 

Whoaa he's right. That was easy

 

Just kidding, you make some very good points

 

"Take your time and maybe take a path for now which does not involve a powerful energy experience. These energy paths are not a super happy pill. They are serious business. I have seen alot of people with emotional issues seek to use energy paths as a way to run away from their personal issues and it only made them nuts. and eventually when reality kicked back in (because it will) they were much worse off than before... With powerful energy paths it is extremely important that one already have the tools to handle their emotions. Because powerful energy exercises can increase emotional states. If you are running from emotions they will be brought to the surface much faster....So, take your time... investigate why you feel the need to find ultimate reality so quickly. Get comfortable with yourself first, then choose a pathway based on a place of stability.... And in your case, I strongly suggest a path where you can have access to a teacher in your area who can guide you."

 

 

 

Michael

 

The KAP program is very good. I'm just finishing up KAP1 myself. Like 5 Elements says its a relatively high energy esoteric style program. Starting slow with a live teacher is often the best.

[markern]

Put on the brakes! Wanting to know the "ultimate reality" is a huge red flag. You already are in ultimate reality. It would be best not to do anything until you gain some comfortability with yourself! Kunlun, kundalini yoga, or any other spiritual discipline is JUST A TOOL. There is no such discipline that will lead you to ultimate reality. You are already a part of ultimate reality. If you go into any discipline looking for "ultimate reality" you will be either very disappointed or easily deceived.

This is not accurate. Kundalini is NOT sex energy. I would suggest more study about different energy paths. Each energy, whether it is kundalini or Chi or what have you have very different vibrations and achieve different results. If you mix certain energies, it can be harmful. If you are confused... take your time. there is no timer. If you feel like you need to rush to make a decision on which path to take, this indicates a desperation that is unhealthy.

 

Take your time and maybe take a path for now which does not involve a powerful energy experience. These energy paths are not a super happy pill. They are serious business. I have seen alot of people with emotional issues seek to use energy paths as a way to run away from their personal issues and it only made them nuts. and eventually when reality kicked back in (because it will) they were much worse off than before... With powerful energy paths it is extremely important that one already have the tools to handle their emotions. Because powerful energy exercises can increase emotional states. If you are running from emotions they will be brought to the surface much faster....So, take your time... investigate why you feel the need to find ultimate reality so quickly. Get comfortable with yourself first, then choose a pathway based on a place of stability.... And in your case, I strongly suggest a path where you can have access to a teacher in your area who can guide you.

 

 

I highly agree with this post.

 

Enlightenment does not remove all ones emotional issues nor all psychological suffering. It actualy does remove some of it. A way of saying it might be that it removes the suffering of suffering (wich is a hell of a lot) but does not remove the initial suffering. It also does give you a sort of ground state of complete contentment, bliss, love etc. wich you are always in contact with once enlightenemt is stabilized but while that aspect is always there it will be there together with the whole range of ordinary human suffering. Actualy quite a lot of suffering is enhanced by such a path because one by learning to let go of resistance to that wich is experienced at every moment, experiences ones suffering fully in comparision to before when one numbed down the feeling of pain by pushing it away. But then again combined with feeling the pain more one is ok with the pain in a fundamental way wich makes it less of a problem. Enlightenment does not not make you a perfect being either altough it does have some extra potential for making you good that not being enlightened does not have.

 

When embarking on any path towards enlightenment it is very important to either have your emotions pretty well sorted out or to use the techniques of spirtual life to sort your emotions out before you embark on the heavy stuff. The energies one encounters and the psychological changes one goes through are so powerfull one needs a certain initial stability not to break apart during the process.

 

In almost all traditions character building has also been heavily emphasized to build a personality that is suited to handle the changes and to be able to utilize them well. Without this the personal risks are much higher and the likelyhood that your enlightenment will be of much benefit to yourself and especialy to others is much less. Without partaking in a tradition that proviedes this (Tibetan budhism for example) the alterantive and replacement for westerners practicing on their own is largely to do psychological work that is conducive to their spiritual path. Jack Kornfields book "a Wise heart" explains budhist psychology for the west and is one good source to rely on for that kind of work. The diamond aproach of A.H. Almaas is another.

 

That being said it apears that those doing AYP, Kunlun or KAP do manage to keep resonably stable so I will not advice against any of those paths. I will however, say that I think you should slow down your desire for quick results a lot, that you should look more into psychological stuff and not expect spiritual practice to magicly sort all that stuff out but only to be an aid, and I will also advice you to focus a lot on those techniques that are most beneficial for day to day psychological balance and health in the begining rather than the heavy energetic stuff. An example of such a practice is the six healing sounds wich works very directly with creating emotional health. Basic mindfulness, very basic work on freying the breath and making it long and deep, the inner smile, structural alignement of the the body, grounding, five animals, five emotions, and fusion of the five elements are other examples of such practices as opposed to a heavy set of pranayama wich althought it has potentialy very good psychological effects might easily just be destabilizing.

 

In general a strongly recomend AYP. If you want a quick quick path it apears that KAP is the quickest thing and also is good at keeping you grounded and having the process be fairly smooth. No matter what path you choose read about yoganis concept of self pacing.

 

For a big dose of reality about enlightenment and the spiritual path read "Halfway up the mountain" and After the exctacy the Laundry and a Path with Heart (Jack Kornfield) and Daniel Ingrams free e-book (google him).

 

Anyway best of luck:)

[TTT]

Gopi Krishna defines kundalini energy as "evolutionary energy." Which is similar to the concept of "gong," as in, e.g., qi gong, far as I can tell. Kundalini or qi gong, we're facilitating our evolution by means of qi cultivation.

 

 

 

Thanks for this extensive answer on the difference between Kunlun and Kundalini. At this video: http://www.kunlunbliss.com/video.html Max tells that his energy comes from a vacuum. A vacuum (black hole) is Ying. I read that somewhere (maybe in Costa Danaos book). So if I understand you correctly it is this Ying vacuum energy which is going to release the blocks?

 

Besides at the end of this video: http://www.kunlunbliss.com/video.html Max tells that there is so much in this room. I have seen this movie a couple of times and his last words "You think the room is empty, but there is so much..." really make me curious now. Does someone maybe knows what there is in that room?

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT