Kunlun/Yogani

[fiveelementtao]

Gopi Krishna defines kundalini energy as "evolutionary energy." Which is similar to the concept of "gong," as in, e.g., qi gong, far as I can tell. Kundalini or qi gong, we're facilitating our evolution by means of qi cultivation.

This is true but only in a general sense. Gopi Krishna's definition is a generalized definition of Kundalini. It is true that Kundalini and Chi are both Energy. Both Chi and kundalini facilitate evolution. But they are not the same energy.

In Yoga, there are two types of general energies. Kundalini and Prana. But yogis do not interchange these names. When they want to talk about Chi they use the word Prana, when they want to talk about kundalini, they use the word Kundalini. They are very specific terms and are not interchangeable. Becuase awakening kundalini is seen as the highest energy to be awakened, it is understandable that people who are in other systems want a word to define the highest energy possible, so they slap the word Kundalini on it. Although I understand the desired meaning in that context, it is an inaccurate definition of the word. In Yoga, if someone means Prana , they do not say kundalini. However in today's new age definitions people have lumped all energy as Kundalini.

 

All energetic work stimulates the movement of Chi (prana). But not all energetic work directly stimulates kundalini. Kundalini is an energy that is coiled at the base of the spine and is directly related to psychological evolution. Chi is the bio energy of life. So, it is possible that someone can have alot of Chi energy built up and Kundalini will still be unawakened. So, many people do breathing or Chi kung and feel energy move up their spine or feel heat in their hands and assume they have awakened Kundalini. But, they are simply mistaking the signs of Chi as Kundalini awakening.

 

I have worked extensively with both Indian and taoist arts. and in my experience, neither kundalini or Chi will bring enlightenment. They can be helpful, but people with awakened kundalini can still be crazy and cruel as can Taoist masters...

 

So, I do not subscribe to the notion that awakened Kundalini means enlightenment. It is just another energy.

 

I just now read the KAP site, so I have a better understanding of what KAP is. It seems to me based on what little I read, that in KAP they are simply interchanging the word Kundalini with Chi. I have no issue with people calling Chi whatever name they want. But it is not accurate.

 

So, I agree that both Prana and kundalini are energies that can aid in personal evolution. But they are not the same thing.

[TTT]

I highly agree with this post.

 

Enlightenment does not remove all ones emotional issues nor all psychological suffering. It actualy does remove some of it. (Jack Kornfield) and Daniel Ingrams free e-book (google him).

 

Anyway best of luck:)

 

Many thanks for this advice. You remind me that enlightment is not going to be the end of all suffering, which I actually would like to believe in. This down to earth advice will help me, because I was supposing that the spiritual life would actually resolve most of my questions regarding questions about the unknown. It seems enlightment is not interchangeable with knowledge. Besides I thought I thought it would end most suffering, but I don't care much about suffering. I think I learn most during suffering.

 

I still am interested in in the KAP path, because I want to see some more progress. I presume it will help me more in understanding.

 

 

This is true but only in a general sense. Gopi Krishna's definition is a generalized definition of Kundalini. It is true that Kundalini and Chi are both Energy. Both Chi and kundalini facilitate evolution. But they are not the same energy.

 

 

Chi, Kundalini, Kunlun -> the thing which connects them together is not wasting semen during orgasms in the sex act.

 

Fiveelement thanks for your extensive advices, but I have a question. What do you think enlightment is? Are you doing a special path? Are you cultivating a kind of energy?

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[Trunk]

Harder to read when you guys always quote the whole freakin' previous post!

Please just quote small pertinent snippets.

* / end grumble *

[fiveelementtao]

I still am interested in in the KAP path, because I want to see some more progress. I presume it will help me more in understanding.

I don't know a whole lot about KAP. But, based on all the positive testimonials I've read on this site, it seems like a very good discipline.

 

Chi, Kundalini, Kunlun -> the thing which connects them together is not wasting semen during orgasms in the sex act.

It doesn't necessarily "connect them together." It is something they all have in common. You are right about witholding semen in the beginning. In both Taoist and Yogic energetic practices it is a good idea to remain celibate (No ejaculation) for one hundred days. After a while, you can enjoy sex. But, being able to transform semen into the higher centers will aid in energy cultivation. But it is best to have a teacher to guide you through this process safely.

Fiveelement thanks for your extensive advices, but I have a question. What do you think enlightment is?

IMHO, enlightenment is the ability to go through the journey of life, while being aware of all your feelings and desires. all the pain and joy. embracing everything that life gives you and be able to act and react to all circumstances from a place of awareness, understanding and compassion. Basically, IMHO, there is nothing more profound than the Golden Rule. "Treat others as yourself." In my experience, energy will not guarantee this. Little old ladies with no chi or kundalini are still able to be kind and helpful and understand their feelings and take appropriate action... and Yogic and Taoist masters that can levitate and create magnificent states of bliss for themselves and others can still be emotionally immature, selfish and cruel. For me, bottom line is whether or not, you can act from a place of love...

Are you doing a special path? Are you cultivating a kind of energy?

 

I spent some years practicing Kundalini Yoga, tantric (not sexual) Yoga, Sanskrit mantra meditation.

 

I have also been practicing Shang Ch'ing Taoist internal martial arts and nei kung for about 16 years. I am in the same Shang Ch'ing taoist lineage as Max (we learned from different teachers). Max has incorporated a couple other taoist lineage practices into his kunlun but it is mostly from the Shang Ch'ing school.

 

I have found that kundalini and Shang Ch'ing energies do not work well together. So, I stopped all Kundalini exercises.

 

I am now focusing almost exclusively on Shang Ch'ing Taoist practices combined with two Wu Tang exercises.

 

I have tested a few different energy disciplines. I have chosen a set of energy disciplines that work very well for me. That is why I say there is no "Best" path. We are all different and have different purposes in life and have different needs. I have found what works best for me and helps be a happier person. But, I also understand what it is. Energy is only a tool. When my life is over, I will be a naked soul in front of the Infinite Universe. I will only have my awareness based on the actions and observations from this earthly life. Enlightenment, IMHO is not a destination but a journey. There is no finish line. After this life, if I am lucky enough to move into a "higher" dimension, I will still have to learn and grow. I guess for me, enlightenment is growth...

[Ya Mu]

...Enlightenment, IMHO is not a destination but a journey. There is no finish line. After this life, if I am lucky enough to move into a "higher" dimension, I will still have to learn and grow. I guess for me, enlightenment is growth...

 

Bravo!

There are ALWAYS Higher Levels!

[TTT]

I don't know a whole lot about KAP. But, based on all the positive testimonials I've read on this site, it seems like a very good discipline.

 

Thank you for your point of view on the spiritual life. It seems you are a high-attainer, while still being modest. You are the first high attainer which I "met".

 

To me it seems like the energetic work is the "science" and the enlightment itself is subjective.

Although in the end the energetic work supports the enlightment. Only the Tao will know.

 

I just wrote a lot of words, but I deleted them afterwards. It feels like I need to quit reading and talking and I need to start thinking/practising. I have many questions about life still, but I am confused, sleepy and I think this is not topic related. Thereby I will end my participation in this topic.

 

I want to thank you all for helping me out!

 

Goodnight,

 

Thijs

Edited January 6, 2009 by TTT

[ryansmith]

I have been doing KAP since September 7 and have noticed profound changes in my energy levels. I am also much more confident, loving, and happy. Tao is an amazing instructor and each Shaktipat left me with a type of blissful feeling and aliveness comparible to when I went skydiving. My little brother will be taking the course with Santiago in a few weeks and I am very pleased this is a path he has chose for himself.

 

All the best in your decision.

[sean]

I like this view (emphasis mine).

 

Via The Heart of Yoga

by T. K. V. Desikachar

 

"If we want to understand hatha, kundalini, and tantra yoga, we must look closely at a concept that is central to all three, namely, the concept of kundalini. The fundamental idea, shored by all types of yoga that talk about kundalini, is that there are certain channels or nadi in the body through which prana can enter and leave. There are many nadi, but in the context of kundalini we need only concern ourselves with the three most important ones: ida , pingala, and sushumna, all three of which run along the spine. Sushumna runs straight up the spinal column, whereas ida and pingala cross over the spinal column and back a number of times. The ida nadi passes the left nostril and the pingala nadi passes the right nostril. Both have other names such as ha and tha, the two syllables that make up the word hatha. Ha represents ida and the cool energy of the moon (candra); tha represents pingala and the hot energy of the sun (surya). The nadi meet at the six points in the body recognized as the cakras. Figure 33 (see book) shows the locations of the cakras along the central axis of the spine. There is one between the eyebrows, one in the throat, one in the heart region, one in the navel, one just above the base of the trunk, and one at the base of the spine.

 

Ideally, prana flows unhindered along all these passages, but this can only happen when they are not blocked by impurities and rubbish. Normally prana cannot reach sushumna but only flows through the ida (ha) and pingala (tha) nadi, and often insufficiently at that. When it is possible for the prana to enter the sushumna nadi, the prana of ha and tha unite (yoga), which is why we call the process of getting there hatha yoga.

 

The sushumna or central nadi is regarded as the ideal path for prana. If prana flows through this central passage, it is concentrated in the body to such a large degree that its effects can spread throughout the body in an ideal way. None of it gets lost outside the body. When I was describing the purpose and effect of pranayama, I said that the state in which prana leaks out of the body is one in which avidya prevails. How and where prana flows in the body, therefore, has direct consequences for our state of mind: if we cannot keep enough prana in the nadi, if blocks hinder its flow and it cannot keep flowing in the right direction, it dissipates outside the body and results in the mind becoming dark and restless. Conversely, the collection of prana in the body brings about inner peace and true understanding. The free flow of prana in the sushumna is not normally possible because something blocks the passage. This block is symbolized by a coiled snake, the kundalini.

 

The concept of kundalini is confused by many imprecise definitions, and even a text such as the Hatha Yoga Pradipika contains contradictory descriptions of it. The definition that follows is derived from what in my opinion is the best, the clearest, and the most coherent text on this subject, the Yoga Yajnavalkya. There kundalini is defined unambiguously as an obstacle. What is to enter the sushumna at some stage or other through your yoga practice is, according to this text, not the kundalini itself, but simply prana. Many books say that it is the kundalini itself that rises up through the sushumna, but this does not make sense if we follow the Yoga Yajnavalkya, one of the oldest texts that deals with this aspect of yoga. One of its central concepts is that prana and the various forms it takes in the body are linked to the practice of yoga, and it says that if we are successful in our practice, the kundalini is burned up, making the way clear for prana.

 

A snake killed while lying in a curled position unfolds and stretches out, the muscles no longer able to keep it coiled. It is said that when the fire in the body, agni, has killed the snake, the kundalini unrolls and the passage is open to the flow of prana. This does not happen overnight. Even when parts of the kundalini are destroyed, it remains capable of blocking sushumna for a long time.

 

If you closely consider this image, it becomes clear that kundalini is another way of depicting what we call avidya. In the same way that avidya can become so powerful that it totally prevents us from seeing purusa, kundalini blocks the prana and prevents it from rising through the sushumna. The moment the kundalini is burned is the same moment that avidya ceases to exist. Then prana is able to enter the sushumna and slowly move upward. We can also understand hatha yoga as part of raja yoga, which is defined as the process in which prana, the friend of purusa, gradually rises upward. When it gets to the top, purusa unfolds and the king within us emerges. When the emphasis is primarily on the concept of kundalini, then we speak of the practice as kundalini yoga. Hatha yoga is so named when our practice focuses on removing the division between ha and tha.

 

Lastly, the term tantra yoga may be used in describing a yoga practice based on kundalini. In tantra yoga the emphasis is on certain energies that are normally squandered being directed in such a way that they can reduce the blocks that stand in the way of the prana. The practices of tantra yoga are distinctive; indeed, the word tantra translates as "technique" in the positive sense, meaning a skill or craft. In tantra yoga the focus is on the body, and a wide range of connections and relationships between the body and other aspects of the world and cosmos is made."

[Creation]

I just now read the KAP site, so I have a better understanding of what KAP is. It seems to me based on what little I read, that in KAP they are simply interchanging the word Kundalini with Chi.

 

I'm not so sure about this. Have you read KAP founder Glenn Morris' description of his kundalini awakening? It certainly does not sound like ordinary prana/chi. Check it out:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=_meUf86FO...tcover#PPA29,M1

[Vajrasattva]

This is true but only in a general sense. Gopi Krishna's definition is a generalized definition of Kundalini. It is true that Kundalini and Chi are both Energy. Both Chi and kundalini facilitate evolution. But they are not the same energy.

In Yoga, there are two types of general energies. Kundalini and Prana. But yogis do not interchange these names. When they want to talk about Chi they use the word Prana, when they want to talk about kundalini, they use the word Kundalini. They are very specific terms and are not interchangeable. Becuase awakening kundalini is seen as the highest energy to be awakened, it is understandable that people who are in other systems want a word to define the highest energy possible, so they slap the word Kundalini on it. Although I understand the desired meaning in that context, it is an inaccurate definition of the word. In Yoga, if someone means Prana , they do not say kundalini. However in today's new age definitions people have lumped all energy as Kundalini.

 

All energetic work stimulates the movement of Chi (prana). But not all energetic work directly stimulates kundalini. Kundalini is an energy that is coiled at the base of the spine and is directly related to psychological evolution. Chi is the bio energy of life. So, it is possible that someone can have alot of Chi energy built up and Kundalini will still be unawakened. So, many people do breathing or Chi kung and feel energy move up their spine or feel heat in their hands and assume they have awakened Kundalini. But, they are simply mistaking the signs of Chi as Kundalini awakening.

 

I have worked extensively with both Indian and taoist arts. and in my experience, neither kundalini or Chi will bring enlightenment. They can be helpful, but people with awakened kundalini can still be crazy and cruel as can Taoist masters...

 

So, I do not subscribe to the notion that awakened Kundalini means enlightenment. It is just another energy.

 

I just now read the KAP site, so I have a better understanding of what KAP is. It seems to me based on what little I read, that in KAP they are simply interchanging the word Kundalini with Chi. I have no issue with people calling Chi whatever name they want. But it is not accurate.

 

So, I agree that both Prana and kundalini are energies that can aid in personal evolution. But they are not the same thing.

 

?

Well I would say you would need to actually train with someone who has GONE through actual Kundalini Awakening to really "Better Understand" KAP. To see what we are "simply" interchanging to see what is "Accurate". There is a BIG difference to "just doing " Chi Kung & doing Kundalini based Work. In my humble opinion Chi Kung was Part of "Kundalini training" in the ancient days. But Thanks to TCM and "Institutionalized" methodolgy, you probably lost the "ACCURATE". Anyhow proof is in the pudding & actual occurrences in the training.

 

Yes Shakti is 'ENERGY"

yes CHI is energy.

 

But for the "most part" Chi in TANTRIC terms is considered "Prana" or "Lung".

 

But once CHI + Jing + Shen (Prana, Ojas, Bindu), (Tsal Lung Thigle) mix....you have something much "Different" than just the "Chi" one gets from lets say doing a "Form" etc.

 

 

THere are many "Shaktis"

 

Earth has one, Universe has one, you have one. The key is Awareness and how to actually start with your "own" (Lesser Kan & Li) & then gradually move to the Mother/Father's Earth & Heaven's Kundalini (Greater Kan Li). And then moving to something even much "Deeper" typically found in "nirbija Samadhi", Taoist "Dissolving in the Void states, Dzogchen states etc.

 

and as in all training you have an "Outer, Inner & Secret" aspect to all things.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

Edited January 7, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[fiveelementtao]

Santiago, I have no criticism of your system. It seems like a very good taoist energy system. So, first let me say that if you are doing Kan and Li practices effectively, the Kundalini shakti in the spinal column will be raised. If this is the case then you can correctly call it KAP. I agree with almost everything you have said. My post had nothing to do with analyzing or criticizing the effectiveness of KAP. If it works, then great. But, if someone inaccurately uses the term "Kundalini" in a taoist context, I will point it out.

But Thanks to TCM and "Institutionalized" methodology, you probably lost the "ACCURATE"

I don't know what the attempted attack is for, I'm not TCM....

I do know something of Yoga and yogic terms in energy systems. You are using some yogic terms incorrectly and applying them to taoist systems.(It's OK to apply them to taoist systems, but as a former tantric yogi, I prefer to see the yogic terms used accurately.)

 

The key is Awareness and how to actually start with your "own" (Lesser Kan & Li) & then gradually move to the Mother/Father's Earth & Heaven's Kundalini (Greater Kan Li).

 

Kan and Li are not kundalini. This is a good example of the inaccurate use of the word "Kundalini". In yoga, There are two major types of Prana. Prana and Apana. Kan (water) is Apana (descending Yin Chi) and Li (fire) is Prana (ascending Yang Chi) Kundalini is awakened as the RESULT of the mixing of Prana (Li) and Apana (Kan) in the navel chakra (dan tien). That is when kundalini shakti is awakened and rises up Sushumna in the spinal column. This process is similar to Kan and Li in taoist systems. The yogis go about it somewhat differently but the end result is similar. So, if that is your understanding, we are in total agreement there... There is no Outward "heavenly" kundalini. There is only the kundalini in the spine and it is 100% earthly, feminine Shakti power (yin). The Heavenly is Shiva (yang). Shakti is earth (yin). Heaven is Shiva (yang). Kundalini rises to reunite with Shiva in the Crown Chakra. This is the problem when people try to use Yogic energetic terminology to Taoist systems. There are alot of similarites between Yoga and Taoism, but there are also alot of differences between the two energy systems. It is a romantic, comforting idea to postulate that Taoism came from Ancient yoga. But the evidence indicates that Yoga and Tao evolved separately.

 

In my humble opinion Chi Kung was Part of "Kundalini training" in the ancient days.

Chi Kung still IS part of Kundalini work. All yoga is Chi Kung. Chi Kung means "Breath, Energy or Spirit Work" Chi is prana. In yoga, we call Chi Kung "pranayama". which has a similar meaning to Chi Kung. So, by definition any work with breath, movement and prana is Chi Kung.

 

Anyhow proof is in the pudding & actual occurrences in the training.

I agree. And it sounds like your system is a proven energy system. No need to defend your system. I'm not attacking it the validity of your system. I am only pointing out your inaccurate use of Yogic terminology. Edited January 7, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[TTT]

Kan and Li are not kundalini. This is a good example of the inaccurate use of the word "Kundalini". In yoga, There are two major types of Prana. Prana and Apana. Kan (water) is Apana (descending Yin Chi) and Li (fire) is Prana (ascending Yang Chi) Kundalini is awakened as the RESULT of the mixing of Prana (Li) and Apana (Kan) in the navel chakra (dan tien). That is when kundalini shakti is awakened and rises up Sushumna in the spinal column. This process is similar to Kan and Li in taoist systems. The yogis go about it somewhat differently but the end result is similar. So, if that is your understanding, we are in total agreement there... There is no Outward "heavenly" kundalini. There is only the kundalini in the spine and it is 100% earthly, feminine Shakti power (yin). The Heavenly is Shiva (yang). Shakti is earth (yin). Heaven is Shiva (yang). Kundalini rises to reunite with Shiva in the Crown Chakra. This is the problem when people try to use Yogic energetic terminology to Taoist systems. There are alot of similarites between Yoga and Taoism, but there are also alot of differences between the two energy systems. It is a romantic, comforting idea to postulate that Taoism came from Ancient yoga. But the evidence indicates that Yoga and Tao evolved separately.

Chi Kung still IS part of Kundalini work. All yoga is Chi Kung. Chi Kung means "Breath, Energy or Spirit Work" Chi is prana. In yoga, we call Chi Kung "pranayama". which has a similar meaning to Chi Kung. So, by definition any work with breath, movement and prana is Chi Kung.

 

 

I very much like this part, because it makes my mind a lot clearer. Thanks!

[Ya Mu]

I like this view (emphasis mine).

 

Via The Heart of Yoga

by T. K. V. Desikachar

 

"If we want to understand hatha, kundalini, and tantra yoga, we must look closely at a concept that is central to all three, namely, the concept of kundalini. The fundamental idea, shored by all types of yoga that talk about kundalini, is that there are certain channels or nadi in the body through which prana can enter and leave. There are many nadi, but in the context of kundalini we need only concern ourselves with the three most important ones: ida , pingala, and sushumna, all three of which run along the spine. Sushumna runs straight up the spinal column, whereas ida and pingala cross over the spinal column and back a number of times. The ida nadi passes the left nostril and the pingala nadi passes the right nostril. Both have other names such as ha and tha, the two syllables that make up the word hatha. Ha represents ida and the cool energy of the moon (candra); tha represents pingala and the hot energy of the sun (surya). The nadi meet at the six points in the body recognized as the cakras. Figure 33 (see book) shows the locations of the cakras along the central axis of the spine. There is one between the eyebrows, one in the throat, one in the heart region, one in the navel, one just above the base of the trunk, and one at the base of the spine.

 

Ideally, prana flows unhindered along all these passages, but this can only happen when they are not blocked by impurities and rubbish. Normally prana cannot reach sushumna but only flows through the ida (ha) and pingala (tha) nadi, and often insufficiently at that. When it is possible for the prana to enter the sushumna nadi, the prana of ha and tha unite (yoga), which is why we call the process of getting there hatha yoga.

 

The sushumna or central nadi is regarded as the ideal path for prana. If prana flows through this central passage, it is concentrated in the body to such a large degree that its effects can spread throughout the body in an ideal way. None of it gets lost outside the body. When I was describing the purpose and effect of pranayama, I said that the state in which prana leaks out of the body is one in which avidya prevails. How and where prana flows in the body, therefore, has direct consequences for our state of mind: if we cannot keep enough prana in the nadi, if blocks hinder its flow and it cannot keep flowing in the right direction, it dissipates outside the body and results in the mind becoming dark and restless. Conversely, the collection of prana in the body brings about inner peace and true understanding. The free flow of prana in the sushumna is not normally possible because something blocks the passage. This block is symbolized by a coiled snake, the kundalini.

 

The concept of kundalini is confused by many imprecise definitions, and even a text such as the Hatha Yoga Pradipika contains contradictory descriptions of it. The definition that follows is derived from what in my opinion is the best, the clearest, and the most coherent text on this subject, the Yoga Yajnavalkya. There kundalini is defined unambiguously as an obstacle. What is to enter the sushumna at some stage or other through your yoga practice is, according to this text, not the kundalini itself, but simply prana. Many books say that it is the kundalini itself that rises up through the sushumna, but this does not make sense if we follow the Yoga Yajnavalkya, one of the oldest texts that deals with this aspect of yoga. One of its central concepts is that prana and the various forms it takes in the body are linked to the practice of yoga, and it says that if we are successful in our practice, the kundalini is burned up, making the way clear for prana.

 

A snake killed while lying in a curled position unfolds and stretches out, the muscles no longer able to keep it coiled. It is said that when the fire in the body, agni, has killed the snake, the kundalini unrolls and the passage is open to the flow of prana. This does not happen overnight. Even when parts of the kundalini are destroyed, it remains capable of blocking sushumna for a long time.

 

If you closely consider this image, it becomes clear that kundalini is another way of depicting what we call avidya. In the same way that avidya can become so powerful that it totally prevents us from seeing purusa, kundalini blocks the prana and prevents it from rising through the sushumna. The moment the kundalini is burned is the same moment that avidya ceases to exist. Then prana is able to enter the sushumna and slowly move upward. We can also understand hatha yoga as part of raja yoga, which is defined as the process in which prana, the friend of purusa, gradually rises upward. When it gets to the top, purusa unfolds and the king within us emerges. When the emphasis is primarily on the concept of kundalini, then we speak of the practice as kundalini yoga. Hatha yoga is so named when our practice focuses on removing the division between ha and tha.

 

Lastly, the term tantra yoga may be used in describing a yoga practice based on kundalini. In tantra yoga the emphasis is on certain energies that are normally squandered being directed in such a way that they can reduce the blocks that stand in the way of the prana. The practices of tantra yoga are distinctive; indeed, the word tantra translates as "technique" in the positive sense, meaning a skill or craft. In tantra yoga the focus is on the body, and a wide range of connections and relationships between the body and other aspects of the world and cosmos is made."

 

Good post. In light of the fact that it appears not many teachers (posting here as well as the many books written) agree on exactly what kundalini is this post seems very relevant. It is the view I share.

 

In the end, as someone posted, the proof is in what happens to the practitioner. To me, if the system poses danger, then it is not a great system. If it is safe and the practitioner arrives at a Higher Level state, then it is a good system and doesn't really matter what we call any particular thing.

Any particular thing is what it is regardless of what we call it or who agrees with it.

[Vajrasattva]

Santiago, I have no criticism of your system. It seems like a very good taoist energy system. So, first let me say that if you are doing Kan and Li practices effectively, the Kundalini shakti in the spinal column will be raised. If this is the case then you can correctly call it KAP. I agree with almost everything you have said. My post had nothing to do with analyzing or criticizing the effectiveness of KAP. If it works, then great. But, if someone inaccurately uses the term "Kundalini" in a taoist context, I will point it out.

I don't know what the attempted attack is for, I'm not TCM....

 

Its not an attack on you persay but since the "Shamanic" methods became "Institutionalized" they lost a lot of their roots and power.

 

 

I do know something of Yoga and yogic terms in energy systems. You are using some yogic terms incorrectly and applying them to taoist systems.(It's OK to apply them to taoist systems, but as a former tantric yogi, I prefer to see the yogic terms used accurately.)

 

 

Am I?

 

What is terms over actual experience?

 

I am glad you know of "Terms" but always remember an ounce of theory is worth a ton of practice. I have had Kundalini since i was 18 years of age going to my crown center. I learned to open it fully with Glenn Morris when I was in my early 20s. At this time I was already Circulating it appropriately so I get the most out of the experience and life. I am 32 now I have been experiencing Kundalini & Real Yoga & not "terms" for well over 14 years.

 

I have learned in my research and training that most of what is out there in Books and written material for the most part is inaccurate to actual experiential knowledge. There are exceptions to this but in most but in most cases this is correct.

 

Kan and Li are not kundalini. This is a good example of the inaccurate use of the word "Kundalini". In yoga, There are two major types of Prana. Prana and Apana. Kan (water) is Apana (descending Yin Chi) and Li (fire) is Prana (ascending Yang Chi) Kundalini is awakened as the RESULT of the mixing of Prana (Li) and Apana (Kan) in the navel chakra (dan tien). That is when kundalini shakti is awakened and rises up Sushumna in the spinal column. This process is similar to Kan and Li in taoist systems. The yogis go about it somewhat differently but the end result is similar. So, if that is your understanding, we are in total agreement there... There is no Outward "heavenly" kundalini. There is only the kundalini in the spine and it is 100% earthly, feminine Shakti power (yin). The Heavenly is Shiva (yang). Shakti is earth (yin). Heaven is Shiva (yang). Kundalini rises to reunite with Shiva in the Crown Chakra. This is the problem when people try to use Yogic energetic terminology to Taoist systems. There are alot of similarites between Yoga and Taoism, but there are also alot of differences between the two energy systems. It is a romantic, comforting idea to postulate that Taoism came from Ancient yoga. But the evidence indicates that Yoga and Tao evolved separately.

 

I disagree with you. You are only "Categorizing" one Shakti - Earth's Shakti. This is a GREAT Shakti Power indeed but not the "End" of Kundalini awakening. As Far as I am concerned and as many who have experienced Kundalini that is when you really start your actual training.

 

But as I stated before there are many Shakti manifestations & Ultimately there is one "Universal Shakti".

 

In the Tibetan Systems and Shamanic systems you have a Downward Kundalini & an Upward Kundalini Flow.

 

 

Also As I have states before Most of Tao work can be found in "Prana Mudra" form the Tantric & Also in Bon Po. Its not "Romantic". Its there if you research. Also Many of the Native traditions have their "form" of Chi Kung/ Nei Kung.

 

It has been stated to me by great teachers and also my belief that it may becoming from Ancient Persia. Taoism does have Unique things but again you have to dig further to roots. When you find that one thing is a great thing if you dig deeper you find something even greater. It doesn't matter to much where it comes from but do not get stuck in a "Box".

 

Peace & God Bless

Santiago

Edited January 7, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Vajrasattva]

It comes down to this:

 

 

Posture + Breath control + Intent + Awareness and then going beyond all of this into one integration that works ALL the time. Not just when one is "meditating" or Doing Yoga etc....

 

That is Real Yoga & the Fuel & the Expressor is true SHAKTI.

 

Do not read this do not "Term" it

 

Experience it.

 

Love

 

Santiago

[VCraigP]

I like this view (emphasis mine).

 

The free flow of prana in the sushumna is not normally possible because something blocks the passage. This block is symbolized by a coiled snake, the kundalini.

 

One of its central concepts is that prana and the various forms it takes in the body are linked to the practice of yoga, and it says that if we are successful in our practice, the kundalini is burned up, making the way clear for prana.

 

A snake killed while lying in a curled position unfolds and stretches out, the muscles no longer able to keep it coiled. It is said that when the fire in the body, agni, has killed the snake, the kundalini unrolls and the passage is open to the flow of prana. This does not happen overnight. Even when parts of the kundalini are destroyed, it remains capable of blocking sushumna for a long time.

 

 

Sean, et al.

 

This is certainly revelatory to me!

 

According to the quoted text Kundalini is NOT an energy at all!! Therefore 99% of the references to Kundalini as a distinct ENERGY are wrong. This is a HUGE shift in definition of terms.

 

When dealing in the written language as we do here I always find it helpful when those involved have some fundamental agreement upon terms. I often have discussions wherein I find myself needing to clarify what the other is talking about and make clear what I am trying to say as well. But if this view of Kundalini is accepted it really does cut through a lot.

 

Can we just toss out "kundalini" as a term for energy? Is Kundalini awakening merely a clearing out of the main pipe(s) so that the energy can flow freely? I like the simplicity. If this is so then we Taoist based energy workers can go back to doing our thing knowing that our terms (and also more importantly our practices) do cover all the same ground as the Indians and others. I always felt kind of left out as a practitioner when Kundalini discussions arose. In my mind "Well, gee, hmm we don't have that Kundalini thing. Sounds pretty interesting, but, um, err, we are fine without all that....aren't we??"

 

Is Kundalini psychosis merely Qi sickness?

 

This whole concept Sean throws out here so casually turns so much on it's ear I can't believe I am the only one whose bell has been wrung

 

Vajrasattva/Santiago despite your statement about the value of terms vs. practical experience about which I fully agree, we do find ourselves on a forum which necessitates such definitions. I would think this definition would merit some discussion.

 

Anyone??

 

Craig

[freeform]

In the Tibetan Systems and Shamanic systems you have a Downward Kundalini & an Upward Kundalini Flow.

 

That's very interesting! - would you mind telling us more about this?

 

The downwards kundalini I've only heard of in Kunlun - where it's not really called kundalini.

 

Are these mutually exclusive? - do you either go for one or the other? or do you use both? (or one then both when more advanced?)

 

In KAP do you stimulate the upwards flow or the downwards one?

 

sorry for all the questions - you just piqued my curiosity!

[Vajrasattva]

That's very interesting! - would you mind telling us more about this?

 

The downwards kundalini I've only heard of in Kunlun - where it's not really called kundalini.

 

Are these mutually exclusive? - do you either go for one or the other? or do you use both? (or one then both when more advanced?)

 

In KAP do you stimulate the upwards flow or the downwards one?

 

sorry for all the questions - you just piqued my curiosity!

 

You Use Both : )

 

 

You need both otherwise no balance.

[sean]

This whole concept Sean throws out here so casually turns so much on it's ear I can't believe I am the only one whose bell has been wrung

Yeah, hah, I've thrown this same quote up before without much response. To me the implications are pretty profound. Perhaps Kundalini is simply a word for a certain kind of result/symptom that can arise from a certain kind of approach to core channel purification. Other approaches (ie more classically Taoist) reach the same level of purification but via means that do not create a Kundalini-esque response.

 

Sean

[Vajrasattva]

Sean, et al.

 

This is certainly revelatory to me!

 

According to the quoted text Kundalini is NOT an energy at all!! Therefore 99% of the references to Kundalini as a distinct ENERGY are wrong. This is a HUGE shift in definition of terms.

 

When dealing in the written language as we do here I always find it helpful when those involved have some fundamental agreement upon terms. I often have discussions wherein I find myself needing to clarify what the other is talking about and make clear what I am trying to say as well. But if this view of Kundalini is accepted it really does cut through a lot.

 

Can we just toss out "kundalini" as a term for energy? Is Kundalini awakening merely a clearing out of the main pipe(s) so that the energy can flow freely? I like the simplicity. If this is so then we Taoist based energy workers can go back to doing our thing knowing that our terms (and also more importantly our practices) do cover all the same ground as the Indians and others. I always felt kind of left out as a practitioner when Kundalini discussions arose. In my mind "Well, gee, hmm we don't have that Kundalini thing. Sounds pretty interesting, but, um, err, we are fine without all that....aren't we??"

 

Is Kundalini psychosis merely Qi sickness?

 

This whole concept Sean throws out here so casually turns so much on it's ear I can't believe I am the only one whose bell has been wrung

 

Vajrasattva/Santiago despite your statement about the value of terms vs. practical experience about which I fully agree, we do find ourselves on a forum which necessitates such definitions. I would think this definition would merit some discussion.

 

Anyone??

 

Craig

 

There are Distinct Biological, Mental & Spiritual Signs that occur when actual Kundalini (The energy coming from the BASE of the Spine Through all your Chakras) begins to Manifest in one's life.

 

Kundalini is NOT Chi Sickness.

 

Now Kundalini Syndrome /psychosis can be the same and or similar to Chi Sickness.

 

But again actual Kundalini is a Spiritual & Biological Process.

[rain]

Yeah, hah, I've thrown this same quote up before without much response. To me the implications are pretty profound. Perhaps Kundalini is simply a word for a certain kind of result/symptom that can arise from a certain kind of approach to core channel purification. Other approaches (ie more classically Taoist) reach the same level of purification but via means that do not create a Kundalini-esque response.

 

Sean

 

It hit me yesterday, hadnt even read this thread, just the articles posted by me and rex..

I suddenly understood why I stop when the energies start to take over..when the ebryonic

breath takes over, and I'm skinbreathing, sometimes it feels like its about to shift gear..into marrow breathing

I suppose thats the next level in qigong for me because we are doing skin/bodybreathing poses now.

My chest fills with fear, fear that the energy will be overwhelming again. I want it slow this time.

[freeform]

You big tease!

 

The energy coming from the BASE of the Spine Through all your Chakras

 

So does the downwards flowing kundalini also originate in the base of the spine? (or the crown?)

 

I realise you're trying to keep the theorising to a minimum and experience to a maximum! It just makes me feel less lonely knowing that someone has had experience in what I'm just beginning to discover in myself.

 

Thanks

 

[VCraigP]

There are Distinct Biological, Mental & Spiritual Signs that occur when actual Kundalini (The energy coming from the BASE of the Spine Through all your Chakras) begins to Manifest in one's life.

 

Kundalini is NOT Chi Sickness.

 

Now Kundalini Syndrome /psychosis can be the same and or similar to Chi Sickness.

 

But again actual Kundalini is a Spiritual & Biological Process.

 

Never said Kundalini was Chi sickness. I think I am really clear about that. But when people talk about issues they have had with Kundalini awakening and various difficulties it often seems to be put forward in terms of "my kundalini caused such and so to happen" What I am trying to say is that maybe it would be more useful to see issues as being a result of incomplete clearing of the Kundalini.

 

"Kundalini begins to Manifest..."

 

"...is a Spiritual & Biological Process."

 

Check and check, but did you read the article Sean posted? This brought up the question for me "Is Kundalini a particular energy?" Or is it a process? The article in question seem to say that it is a process of removing blockages, or especially of removing the core blockage at the BASE of the Spine.

Can we agree then that "Kundalini" is not a word meaning a type of energy, but a process of freeing up the flow of energy?

 

Does this make a big difference to anybody but me?? Maybe it's just my attempt to control the world through language

 

I definitely do not reject the Kundalini process as a real thing. Way too much written and experienced by others to begin to deny it.

 

Maybe it's just that I am so content to view the WHOLE spectrum of energy in the terms Jing-Qi-Shen. I want to fit Kundalini (and Kunlun for that matter) into this spectrum. Often it seems that Kundalini is discussed as if it were something entirely other than a powerful Qi manifestation. The model of seeing Kundalini as a core obstacle/blockage to be opened up just FITS better in the cosmology as I understand it.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Craig

[三江源]

.

Edited July 18, 2014 by cat

[Trunk]

Can we agree then that "Kundalini" is not a word meaning a type of energy, but a process of freeing up the flow of energy?

 

Does this make a big difference to anybody but me??

Disagreed.

Huge difference.

 

So does the downwards flowing kundalini also originate in the base of the spine? (or the crown?)

It emerges, contacts, the human system at the base of the spine, and initially rises. There follows a period of integration (tends to be wrathful and harrowing) of the new energy into the human form, after which there is more flexibility in its expression (up/down, etc.).

 

For an additional source of information on kundalini, check out various of the Hard Light podcasts.

 

(Like we need another source, now. This thread has gone totally higgledy-piggledy. )