Kunlun/Yogani

[fiveelementtao]

Its not an attack on you persay but since the "Shamanic" methods became "Institutionalized" they lost a lot of their roots and power.

I disagree with you. You are only "Categorizing" one Shakti - Earth's Shakti. This is a GREAT Shakti Power indeed but not the "End" of Kundalini awakening. As Far as I am concerned and as many who have experienced Kundalini that is when you really start your actual training.

 

Santiago,

You're not reading my posts thoroughly or objectively. Once again, you have taken my observations on your use of the word Kundalini as an attack against your practice and you. I am saying that I think your practice results in the raising of kundalini. so, can we get rid of the defensiveness? You are OK. You're practice is OK. Got it? But, according to the original use of the terms in kundalini yoga, you are simply using these terms incorrectly and in the wrong order. However, Just because you are using the term incorrectly doesn't reflect on your practice or you.

 

So, attacking my experience and attempting to compare it to yours doesn't change the original use of these yogic terms. These terms are very specific and have very specific meanings in their original systems. These are not my personal definitions. These are the definitions of the terms invented by yogis thousands of years ago. I am not creating these definitions. Nor am I trying to use them to fit into my personal agenda. You can check with any Yogi and they will tell you the same thing...

 

But, since it seems that you have an emotional attachment to the way these words are used in your system, I will probably not be able to have a reasonable, objective conversation with you about this, so I will let it go. As does happen with language, the meanings of words change to fit the culture or time. It seems that Shakti and Kundalini are in the process of changing to fit the definitions of modern, non-yogic systems. Ultimately it doesn't matter what terms you use or how you use them. So, If your system works, that's all that matters. Your does,... so, enjoy.

[Vajrasattva]

Santiago,

You're not reading my posts thoroughly or objectively. Once again, you have taken my observations on your use of the word Kundalini as an attack against your practice and you. I am saying that I think your practice results in the raising of kundalini. so, can we get rid of the defensiveness? You are OK. You're practice is OK. Got it? But, according to the original use of the terms in kundalini yoga, you are simply using these terms incorrectly and in the wrong order. However, Just because you are using the term incorrectly doesn't reflect on your practice or you.

 

So, attacking my experience and attempting to compare it to yours doesn't change the original use of these yogic terms. These terms are very specific and have very specific meanings in their original systems. These are not my personal definitions. These are the definitions of the terms invented by yogis thousands of years ago. I am not creating these definitions. Nor am I trying to use them to fit into my personal agenda. You can check with any Yogi and they will tell you the same thing...

 

But, since it seems that you have an emotional attachment to the way these words are used in your system, I will probably not be able to have a reasonable, objective conversation with you about this, so I will let it go. As does happen with language, the meanings of words change to fit the culture or time. It seems that Shakti and Kundalini are in the process of changing to fit the definitions of modern, non-yogic systems. Ultimately it doesn't matter what terms you use or how you use them. So, If your system works, that's all that matters. Your does,... so, enjoy.

 

 

I am a Yogi : ).

 

As I said before becareful with what is "Defined" in books its not always what it really is in experience.

 

I know many who claim to be Yogis cause the have read the pradipika or a tantra or a sutra, or cause they are members of an Advanced Yogic website mean while have never really experienced anything out side of the volumes of theory they have ingested. Reading about Yoga and memorizing terms DOES not make you a Yogi. Nor will bring you closer to true Yoga. Also folks that are FLEXIBLE are not always Yogis either. Otherwise every circus gymnast would be a Sage. There is a fine line between what is and what isn't. The real Juice is in very subtle practices that at 1st glance would not be "considered" yoga. The Real Yogi is the one that can do 24/7 and generate tons of juice for many positive things (healing, Meditation, Enlightenment, helping others etc) with out needing a cave a yoga mat an Ashatanga DVD or book. I do not mean this as an attack towards you. Its just a general statement that is True. The real Yogas are hidden. The real Yogis are not what most would expect as a Yogi.

 

Again do not get stuck on terms just experience.

 

I really do not care how you categorize etc. I do however care that if folks are sincere in learning about Kundalini that they learn properly cause it can "fuck you up" if you are not careful just like any energy system that works on a high caliber.

 

Peace to you and do not take what i have said as offense.

God Bless you : )

 

Santiago

[fiveelementtao]

 

I am a Yogi : ).

 

As I said before becareful with what is "Defined" in books its not always what it really is in experience.

 

I know many who claim to be Yogis cause the have read the pradipika or a tantra or a sutra, or cause they are members of an Advanced Yogic website mean while have never really experienced anything out side of the volumes of theory they have ingested. Reading about Yoga and memorizing terms DOES not make you a Yogi. Nor will bring you closer to true Yoga. Also folks that are FLEXIBLE are not always Yogis either. Otherwise every circus gymnast would be a Sage. There is a fine line between what is and what isn't. The real Juice is in very subtle practices that at 1st glance would not be "considered" yoga. The Real Yogi is the one that can do 24/7 and generate tons of juice for many positive things (healing, Meditation, Enlightenment, helping others etc) with out needing a cave a yoga mat an Ashatanga DVD or book. I do not mean this as an attack towards you. Its just a general statement that is True. The real Yogas are hidden. The real Yogis are not what most would expect as a Yogi.

 

Again do not get stuck on terms just experience.

 

I really do not care how you categorize etc. I do however care that if folks are sincere in learning about Kundalini that they learn properly cause it can "fuck you up" if you are not careful just like any energy system that works on a high caliber.

 

Peace to you and do not take what i have said as offense.

God Bless you : )

 

Santiago

Yes, technically, any person using energy to achieve Yoga (union) is a yogi.

Dude, you are making alot of assumptions about me. You know very little of my experience. In terms of yoga, You do not know where I have learned or how I have learned or from whom. You also know nothing of what I have experienced. I have not made any judgements on you, your experience or your practice. I am simply stating that at times you are using Indian yogic terms in a taoist context inaccurately. That is all. I am done with this as it is getting ridiculous...

Edited January 7, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Yoda]

Cat,

 

Thanks for bringing us up to speed!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[fiveelementtao]

You big tease!

So does the downwards flowing kundalini also originate in the base of the spine? (or the crown?)

 

I realise you're trying to keep the theorising to a minimum and experience to a maximum! It just makes me feel less lonely knowing that someone has had experience in what I'm just beginning to discover in myself.

 

Thanks

 

 

Kundalini flows from the Root chakra UP first. After reaching the crown, it then flows downward back to the root chakra. Kundalini by definition always starts at the Root chakra. If the energy is starting somewhere else it is not kundalini.

It takes many years for kundalini to flow through the chakras. So, if someone is having a quick energy experience, it is probably not kundalini. It should be noted that Yogic energy systems are VERY different than taoist systems.

There are inconsistencies with yoga that do not work in taoist systems.

Kundalini in yoga is categorized as Shakti (feminine power). Yet it is VERY hot. It is always referred to as Fire. In Tao, Fire is always Yang. If someone is experiencing a cool energy, it is not Kundalini

 

Kundalini is not just any power. It is the spiritual gravitational force of the human personality. Enlightenment in Yoga is when this power of Personality (kundalini) moves up through the chakras and evolves.

 

I think what has happened is that in Yoga, kundalini is viewed as the highest form of energy so people in other systems who do not understand exactly what kundalini is want to use a term which gives their experience the highest reputation. So, we have alot of people ascribing the word kundalini to a powerful energy experience.

In my experience, Kundalini is not part of the taoist equation. and for those who want to make it part of the taoist equation, they end up making up their own definitions of it in order to fit in their experience...

[Vajrasattva]

Yes, technically, any person using energy to achieve Yoga (union) is a yogi.

Dude, you are making alot of assumptions about me. You know very little of my experience. In terms of yoga, You do not know where I have learned or how I have learned or from whom. You also know nothing of what I have experienced. I have not made any judgements on you, your experience or your practice. I am simply stating that at times you are using Indian yogic terms in a taoist context inaccurately. That is all. I am done with this as it is getting ridiculous...

 

Peace to you,

 

Santiago

[rain]

Kundalini flows from the Root chakra UP first. After reaching the crown, it then flows downward back to the root chakra. Kundalini by definition always starts at the Root chakra. If the energy is starting somewhere else it is not kundalini.

It takes many years for kundalini to flow through the chakras. So, if someone is having a quick energy experience, it is probably not kundalini. It should be noted that Yogic energy systems are VERY different than taoist systems.

There are inconsistencies with yoga that do not work in taoist systems.

Kundalini in yoga is categorized as Shakti (feminine power). Yet it is VERY hot. It is always referred to as Fire. In Tao, Fire is always Yang. If someone is experiencing a cool energy, it is not Kundalini

 

Kundalini is not just any power. It is the spiritual gravitational force of the human personality. Enlightenment in Yoga is when this power of Personality (kundalini) moves up through the chakras and evolves.

 

I think what has happened is that in Yoga, kundalini is viewed as the highest form of energy so people in other systems who do not understand exactly what kundalini is want to use a term which gives their experience the highest reputation. So, we have alot of people ascribing the word kundalini to a powerful energy experience.

In my experience, Kundalini is not part of the taoist equation. and for those who want to make it part of the taoist equation, they end up making up their own definitions of it in order to fit in their experience...

 

I disagree that kundalini flows from the root. I believe it is initiated in the true dan tien and then goes down even deeper than the root as it turns its electricmagnetic fierce willpower and goes upwards through all chakraes to split and merge through back, - side and front channels of the scull opens the third eye, then goes up through the crown and connects to higher intelligens before it returns down as evxpanded consciousness and this energy that descends..is not hot. It makes empty space.

Edited January 7, 2009 by rain

[fiveelementtao]

This brought up the question for me "Is Kundalini a particular energy?"

 

Maybe it's just that I am so content to view the WHOLE spectrum of energy in the terms Jing-Qi-Shen. I want to fit Kundalini (and Kunlun for that matter) into this spectrum. Often it seems that Kundalini is discussed as if it were something entirely other than a powerful Qi manifestation. The model of seeing Kundalini as a core obstacle/blockage to be opened up just FITS better in the cosmology as I understand it.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig, Yes, kundalini, in my experience, is a specific energy. I respect the article that Sean posted, but I disagree with it as does most tantric yogis. I agree with the end result which is that when kundalini has arisen, it will disintegrate the blockages up through the chakras. But, in my experience it is a very definite, specific type of energy. Kundalini is about burning through karma. Nothing else. This is what most people do not realize about kundalini. Kundalini is highly overrated as an energy. It is alot of hard work and not much fun. Tao is much faster and more fun.

 

In my experience, Taoist energy systems are SO different than yogic. Kundalini Yoga (which is not the same as your average Hatha Yoga) is a completely different method of energy enhancement than Tao. In my experience, Kundalini is not Kunlun or Jing or Chi or Shen. It is definitely in the spine and it is much more difficult to awaken than most people think. Chi likes to flow and will flow very quickly if asked. Kundalini is very resistant and takes alot of work to get it to move. And it falls back down very quickly. So, to make any real progress with kundalini takes alot of discipline for many years. That is why mantra meditation and yoga have very strict rules. Because if you miss practice or screw up, kundalini falls back down and you have to start all over again. In my opinion if I were to try and fit Kunlun and other downward flowing energy into yogic terms. Kunlun is the Shiva power. Y The effects of Kunlun and Mao Shan meditations are (IMHO) Shiva power. Kundalini is manifested earthly incarnated human experience. She is your Karma. In order to evolve she has to forget her attachment to personality and incarnated existence to make any progress. There is a definite progression with Kundalini as she moves through the chakras. At first, she ONLY moves up. If someone is saying that kundalini moves all over etc... it is not kundalini or they are experiencing the nerves REACTING to kundalini. She only moves up the spine and then back down after unifying with Shiva in the crown. When she moves through a specific chakra, the person has to learn the lessons of that chakra before She will move up to the next chakra.

 

For me, I prefer the Shiva path of Tao, descending into reality rather than struggling to ascend.

Bottom line, for me, is that kundalini is not part of the Taoist equation. And I prefer it that way. Kundalini is alot of hard work burning through karma. In tao, we don't spend all that time burning through karma. We seek release from Karma. Specifically for you and I in the downward path, instead of trying to rise up to heaven by burning through our karma, we are simply calling down Shiva to earth. It's alot faster and avoids all that karma burning.. That is why I abandonded kundalini yoga for Tao.

Edited January 7, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[三江源]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by cat

[VCraigP]

5 ET

 

You obviously took the time to read and understand what I was trying to say.

 

Thanks for the clear perception of the questions I was asking and thanks for trying to answer those questions.

 

I really appreciate it.

 

Craig

[fiveelementtao]

So my question which has evolved from this pondering is - to 5elTao, primarily, whose ideas these are - :

 

what is the difference between 'burning through karma' ( kundalini) and 'seeking release from karma' ( taoist work)... ?

 

Is that answerable?

 

I am most interested indeed to know what you think. Not just scratching my arse, here.

 

Good question Cat... you're making me think here and my understandings are changing as I try to answer.... I will answer from what I know which is spirit fighting. In the art that I was taught, in order for the Spirit Fighting energy to flow, I need to see my opponent as not having any power or substance. If I see him as having solidity or power, I will be vulnerable to his attacks and my energy will not cut through him. If however, I do not give him any power, the spirit fighting energy will slice through his aura and physical defenses. It all starts with mindset. I think the same is true with karma. In kundalini yoga, we are taught that our karma has weighed us down and has to be burned off in order to be released. In tao, we hear alot about how we can choose our own fate. So, If we don't wrestle with our karma, we are less likely to struggle with it. It's not a question of ignoring it, I think it is a question of just simply choosing to transform ourselves energetically. Instead of wrestling with our karma, we simply choose to transform it.

 

The Buddha (who was operating from and Indian energy system standpoint) died an old, sick man. BUT he had burned through all his karma. Taoist masters are said to transform their energy and bodies so they can live forever or transport themselves bodily into the next dimension. The goals of Yogic and Toaist uses of energy are completely different. But in our modern, micro-wave new agey sweeping generalizations of energy work, we have blended everything together and many things have lost their original meanings and contexts.

 

Kundalini is our karma. The state we achieve after burning through karma is one of awareness and compassion. That is why it is seen as the highest energy. Not because of it's physical power but because to be free of illusion and attachment, to be full of awareness and compassion is the best our souls can achieve. That is why it is seen as the highest energy. It isn't. Having alot of kundalini isn't necessarily good. It means you have alot of karmic crud burning up and releasing alot energy. The highest state is to be FREE of kundalini. I guess I am now understanding sean's quote now and I agree. Once karma has been burned through, we are free and our Chi can flow unhindered at it's highest level.

 

When people have a powerful energy experience from Kundalini moving, it is because when karma is burned through it releases ALOT of energy that was previously being used to store karma. When we let it go, we are able to use that energy freely. So, that is why people have either blissful of frightening experiences when kundalini moves. Because kundalini never moves without karma being burned. So, many times when karma is burned people feel alot of energy and make the mistake of attributing the power to kundalini. The power is only a side effect of karma being released. It is possible for people to have kundalini move and not have a powerful energetic experience. So, in a way, if we have a powerful energy experience due to kundalini, it may only mean that we have more crap to burn through. It is the same with kunlun. Many times the people who have the strongest experience with kunlun are the people who have the most blockages.

 

Most of us hear about kundalini out of context and we take the surface understanding of what kundalini is and try to make it fit into taoism because we want to have the "Best" energy. Taoism does not deal with karma directly like Hindu or buddhist systems do. So, taoist systems are not designed to deal with karma. We only deal with kundalini if we want to address karma. If Karma is not our focus, there is no need to awaken kundalini.

 

This would explain partly why doing kundalini yoga and kunlun don't mix. The two energy systems were not designed to work together. They are seeking to accomplish two different things.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by cat

[Vajrasattva]

Hi Craig, Yes, kundalini, in my experience, is a specific energy. I respect the article that Sean posted, but I disagree with it as does most tantric yogis. I agree with the end result which is that when kundalini has arisen, it will disintegrate the blockages up through the chakras. But, in my experience it is a very definite, specific type of energy. Kundalini is about burning through karma. Nothing else. This is what most people do not realize about kundalini. Kundalini is highly overrated as an energy. It is alot of hard work and not much fun. Tao is much faster and more fun.

 

In my experience, Taoist energy systems are SO different than yogic. Kundalini Yoga (which is not the same as your average Hatha Yoga) is a completely different method of energy enhancement than Tao. In my experience, Kundalini is not Kunlun or Jing or Chi or Shen. It is definitely in the spine and it is much more difficult to awaken than most people think. Chi likes to flow and will flow very quickly if asked. Kundalini is very resistant and takes alot of work to get it to move. And it falls back down very quickly. So, to make any real progress with kundalini takes alot of discipline for many years. That is why mantra meditation and yoga have very strict rules. Because if you miss practice or screw up, kundalini falls back down and you have to start all over again. In my opinion if I were to try and fit Kunlun and other downward flowing energy into yogic terms. Kunlun is the Shiva power. Y The effects of Kunlun and Mao Shan meditations are (IMHO) Shiva power. Kundalini is manifested earthly incarnated human experience. She is your Karma. In order to evolve she has to forget her attachment to personality and incarnated existence to make any progress. There is a definite progression with Kundalini as she moves through the chakras. At first, she ONLY moves up. If someone is saying that kundalini moves all over etc... it is not kundalini or they are experiencing the nerves REACTING to kundalini. She only moves up the spine and then back down after unifying with Shiva in the crown. When she moves through a specific chakra, the person has to learn the lessons of that chakra before She will move up to the next chakra.

 

For me, I prefer the Shiva path of Tao, descending into reality rather than struggling to ascend.

Bottom line, for me, is that kundalini is not part of the Taoist equation. And I prefer it that way. Kundalini is alot of hard work burning through karma. In tao, we don't spend all that time burning through karma. We seek release from Karma. Specifically for you and I in the downward path, instead of trying to rise up to heaven by burning through our karma, we are simply calling down Shiva to earth. It's alot faster and avoids all that karma burning.. That is why I abandonded kundalini yoga for Tao.

 

 

well you go with what feels right. Again do not take this as an ATTACK towards you. Its not I am just speaking in general based on my experience. Take it or leave it...... Either way I send you peace & love.

 

There is a "Balance" in things. You can not have Shiva with out Shakti and you can not have Shakti with out Shiva. Even in Tao these principles and flows exist.

 

You are again "terming" & categorizing one thing over the other etc. TAO is not just Down Flow or "SHIVA" Power.

 

Technically in TAO...

 

"Man Follows Earth (SHAKTI) Earth Follows Tao (Shiva)."

 

And also becareful with Categorizing Shakti as just "Earth" or just Kundalini = Earth up through man energy etc. Do not try to "box" Shakti. ; ). There is infact a "MAHA KUNDALINI". So do not try to box it as the energy in your spine or the energy of the EARTH alone.

 

There are greater things that exist on a Macro Cosmic level as well as greater things that exist on a very very very subtle MICRO level.

 

 

Peace & God Bless to you,

 

Santiago

[三江源]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by cat

[Eric23]

If this is not one of the best threads in TTB's history, I'd be really surprised. I bow in gratitude to all participants for the teaching. Thank you.

[Vajrasattva]

Different kinds of wisdom!

 

We appreciate the thrust away from fuzzy mindedness, and want to avoid the inchoate massing together that leaves us in a cloud of unknowing.

 

And also we know that relying solely on the logos mind will ultimately let us down. Logocracy -the rule of, or government of, by words, is not the tao!

 

 

Cat I did not want to talk about your ass burn in public but i know what you are taking about. We will continue that in PM.

 

Santi : )

[fiveelementtao]

well you go with what feels right. Again do not take this as an ATTACK towards you. Its not I am just speaking in general based on my experience. Take it or leave it...... Either way I send you peace & love.

 

There is a "Balance" in things. You can not have Shiva with out Shakti and you can not have Shakti with out Shiva. Even in Tao these principles and flows exist.

 

You are again "terming" & categorizing one thing over the other etc. TAO is not just Down Flow or "SHIVA" Power.

 

Technically in TAO...

 

"Man Follows Earth (SHAKTI) Earth Follows Tao (Shiva)."

 

And also becareful with Categorizing Shakti as just "Earth" or just Kundalini = Earth up through man energy etc. Do not try to "box" Shakti. ; ). There is infact a "MAHA KUNDALINI". So do not try to box it as the energy in your spine or the energy of the EARTH alone.

 

There are greater things that exist on a Macro Cosmic level as well as greater things that exist on a very very very subtle MICRO level.

Peace & God Bless to you,

 

Santiago

Santiago, my friend.... Until you and I agree on what the words Kundalini, Shakti, Shiva etc... mean we cannot have an intelligent conversation. In order to communicate, we need to have a common understanding of terms. I have trained with tantric Yogis in the Indian traditions. They have different definitions for these energetic terms than you do. But that is irrelevant because your students and teachers share your same definitions and it works, so it's really none of my business. I am sure if we were to only speak in Taoist terms to explain your experiences, I have no doubt we would be in total agreement. I could once again spend many paragraphs explaining your misunderstanding of terms like Shakti etc.. according to the context of the yogic tradition in which I learned them... But I really have no beef with you or your teaching and I have no desire to continue to play word games or argue about nonsense. I have the deepest respect for your traditions and for you as taoist and From now on when I see you use those terms I will do my best to put my history with those terms away and translate them into taoist terms so I can understand them and enjoy your wisdom...

Edited January 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Aetherous]

fiveelementtao wrote:

 

When people have a powerful energy experience from Kundalini moving, it is because when karma is burned through it releases ALOT of energy that was previously being used to store karma. When we let it go, we are able to use that energy freely. So, that is why people have either blissful of frightening experiences when kundalini moves. Because kundalini never moves without karma being burned. So, many times when karma is burned people feel alot of energy and make the mistake of attributing the power to kundalini. The power is only a side effect of karma being released. It is possible for people to have kundalini move and not have a powerful energetic experience. So, in a way, if we have a powerful energy experience due to kundalini, it may only mean that we have more crap to burn through. It is the same with kunlun. Many times the people who have the strongest experience with kunlun are the people who have the most blockages.

 

Even though I'm not going to take sides as to which theory is right...this is a very interesting theory and correlates with my limited experience.

[fiveelementtao]

It is a stance of the mind.. not a hard slog...? However, you may need a hard slog to get to the position of allowing yourself to hold that stance of mind..

well said!

this is the main hurdle to Shang Ch'ing taoist energy practices. acquiring and maintaining that mindset in Spirit Fighting is the most difficult. Once you arrive there, it is a whole different universe!

[Yoda]

I remember Max saying that "Taoists don't do karma."

 

Really great thread y'all!!

[Vajrasattva]

I remember Max saying that "Taoists don't do karma."

 

Really great thread y'all!!

 

 

True which is why i didn;t get Mak tin Si 's business with all this karma talk : )

 

 

 

 

Santiago, my friend.... Until you and I agree on what the words Kundalini, Shakti, Shiva etc... mean we cannot have an intelligent conversation. In order to communicate, we need to have a common understanding of terms. I have trained with tantric Yogis in the Indian traditions. They have different definitions for these energetic terms than you do. But that is irrelevant because your students and teachers share your same definitions and it works, so it's really none of my business. I am sure if we were to only speak in Taoist terms to explain your experiences, I have no doubt we would be in total agreement. I could once again spend many paragraphs explaining your misunderstanding of terms like Shakti etc.. according to the context of the yogic tradition in which I learned them... But I really have no beef with you or your teaching and I have no desire to continue to play word games or argue about nonsense. I have the deepest respect for your traditions and for you as taoist and From now on when I see you use those terms I will do my best to put my history with those terms away and translate them into taoist terms so I can understand them and enjoy your wisdom...

 

Spoken from the heart and accepted through my heart.

 

Peace to you my friend.

 

Santi

[Trunk]

Sean,

 

To strip out some of the contentious terminology ...

 

Is it your view, regardless of terminology, that there are not various vast high-octane energies at all? That would seem to be one possible progression (though not necessarily) from the view that you posted on kundalini. Or is it that you think that there are such energies, but that kundalini just isn't one of them?

 

I mean, fer instance, Mark Griffin (and other teachers that I've met who teach through transmission). He can transmit to ... well, at least, to a room full of people at once - as much (and more) purity and quantity of energy as they can stand. There's a number of things that come together that make that possible... but certainly part of it is the existence of "pure energies" or whatever you want to call them.

 

And I'd say that some of those energies are "extraordinary". Meaning, an average person might do a great deal of work to open the tissues of their body, be able to stretch in every direction with flexibility and strength and flow. Might have gotten all kinds of acupuncture and massage and be very healthy, have their channels open... but not necessarily have blatantly extraordinary light and purity blazing all around them.

 

Keith

 

p.s. I'm not mentioning MG as an authority~trump, and the conversation is not about authoritatively trying to pin down exactly what is going on w/ him. I'm not trying to get all nose-in-the-air by bringing his name up. Just an example, common experience.

 

p.p.s. *shameless plug*

HardLight (Mark Griffin) now has streaming audio so that you can hear the meetings and be plugged into the energy live, in real time. High-tech darshan.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Trunk

[Jedi777]

[fiveelementtao]

For all the grief I gave to Mak Tin Si, I have to agree with him on one thing: There are alot of people in the west who dabble in taoism, hinduism, buddhism and throw them all together into one pot not realizing what each tradition means and is designed to do. As one gets deeper and deeper into these traditions, it becomes important to better understand the purpose and focus of each. And it may become necessary to make critical choices as to what one wants to focus on. Because each accomplishes different goals.

I know there are some on this forum who will disagree with me sharply and possibly take offense to what I will share. But these terms have specific definitions within a specific context of a specific energetic tradition. Kundalini, karma, shakti etc cannot be fully understood if taken from their original context.

As I have said already, there is alot of misconceptions about what kundalini is even among most yogis. If someone has a powerful experience with energy and it is labeled as kundalini for you by someone else, then that is what kundalini is for you. If you have a powerful energy experience and you yourself label it as kundalini based on your understanding, it does not mean that the energy you have experienced is kundalini in the original context of the meaning. If you HAVE had an experience with kundalini and it is the most powerful energy in the Universe for you, then that says something about your focus and state of existence. Because Kundalini is NOT the all powerful force in the Universe. It is only ONE force. It is not God. It is not Universal energy etc... If it is that for you, either you are mistaking it for something it is not or your entire focus in your existence is still limited. When we understand the true defintion of kundalini you will see what I mean. I want to stress that the definitions I will share with you are not MY definitions. These are the definitions of the terms as understood by indian tantric masters.

The point of all Yogic work is to move kundalini through the chakras and burn off karma so the aspirant can be free of illusion and attachment and not have to be reborn. The Chakras in Indian traditions do not correspond with daoist energy centers. Because they accomplish COMPLETELY different goals.

Dan tiens in Daoism are the energy centers where the energy is stored, mixed and processed for higher development. (there are many others on this forum who can describe the function of the dan tiens better than I so I will leave it to them to explain) Chakras have a much different energetic function than dan tiens ot meridian points. What I am about to explain in the following response is the Yogic understanding of Kundalini and the chakras. I am not trying to state fact. Just the context of that tradition to better understand the function of kundalini, karma and chakras in the Indian traditions.

[fiveelementtao]

Kundalini is the accumulated Karma or human consciousness of the Soul of the individual. It is not the Soul. It is the karma consciousness of the person, the "self" consciousness of the Soul. It is the force that allows the Divine Soul of the person to become weighed down and incarnated into a limited human body. Without kundalini, our Souls would identify with the Infinite and not be able to be crammed into a limited human body. Kundalini is the compressing force of Karma that defines us enough to be able to have a personality. That is why Kundalini is called the "Mother". Because She "created" us and gave birth to our identity and person. So, if Kundalini is the most powerful force in the Universe for you, that is because you identify with your limited personality and it defines your entire existence..

The Chakras: The seven Chakras are not simply energy refinement centers. They are portals to the seven levels of reality. ( it is said that in whatever chakra your kundalini is when you die, that is the realm of existence your Soul will go to before reincarnating.)

1st Chakra: Earth-Base of Spine. This corresponds to the Earhtly realm of existence. Things, stuff, Authority figures. People who operate from this Chakra seek physical comfort. They relate to authority and parental figures. They are like small infants who need the love and approval of Mom and Dad. They are great workers who just want safety and security and guidance through life.

2nd Chakra: Sexual center. people in this realm want to express themselves and begin to relate to others. Through sex and romantic relations. This is also the beginning of creative impulses.

3rd chakra: Navel. Individuality, power, control. This is the realm of the warrior. The personality begins to seek independence. This person seeks to lead and control. This is the realm of the General. business tycoon, plitical leader. This is the realm of the soldier who bravely defends his family and friends.

4th Chakra: Heart. This is the realm of the religious zealot. The self has realized that it is not an island. So, it seeks to commune with Infinte Through the community. This is the realm of selfless religious love. The self seeks to commune with other people and Unite with "God".

5th Chakra: Throat. Here the Self begins to individuate again. It has realized the limitations of group consciousness and seeks to commune with "God" alone. This is the realm of the celibate hermit monk. This person is seen as a very wise and mysterious Guru.

6th Chakra: 3rd Eye. Here the Self has dissolved most of the boundaries between itself and the Universe. Here opposites begin to merge and ther is no more"I" and "You". The kundalini (Self) has moved through all 5 elements. Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Ether and has command over the elements. This is the Realm of the great wizard Gurus,

7th Chakra: Crown. This is the realm of Samadhi. Perfect union with the Divine. Here, the Self has release all attachments and is One with the Infinite. This realm is beyond description.

At this point the Kunndalini (self) begins to descend back through the Chakras. When the Self has reached the Root chakra again, the person is considered fully enlightened. Now the person can mix with all peoples and relate to to them on any level without attachment. This is the "Siddha" the Rishi.

Edited January 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao