Demons

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hello Stigweard,

 

Sorry to be so long in getting back to you Stigweard, but as I note to White Tiger I have been very busy. I did most of my work on this reply, and the previous one to Rain, offline, and more time went into them then would appear from the 'rapid fire' postings here would indicate. I have as usual tried to post 'thoughtful' responses in several senses of the word.

 

In my experience and observation these 'worms' can only gain purchase within one's being through the 'leakages' inherent within a consciousness that has been distorted away from from it's pristine nature. In another topic I have given the descriptive 'psychodiverticuli', these are literally pockets of psycho-energy that, through the artifice of conditioned personality creation, are diversions away from the main stream of one's life force.

 

These 'psychodiverticuli' are the cracks through which we haemorhage vital energy and are also the portals of entry and fertile breeding ground for said 'worms' and other parasites.

 

So to your dual inquiry of "How did they get there?" and "How do I rid myself of this affliction?" then you must look to the root of the problem that being the sum contents of your personality. One must also give oneself in dedication to your Taoist practices, like virtuous fulfillment and nei tan etc, because these practices in my experience are the most direct and effective in resolving these energy abstractions.

 

By now I am sure that you have read my post on the three worms, which I did from the perspective of traditional Chinese views about them. As I mentioned I liked your idea about 'psychodiverticuli' when I came across it in the Magic thread it has lots of interesting connotative connections that are suggestive. That said, the Chinese perspective is that these are part of the body/qi field, and do not 'gain purchase' into the body, though the notion that the body/qi field with all its curious faults, such as hunger and disease and death, and of course the three worms, gains purchase within a consciousness that 'has been distorted away from its pristine nature' is rather interesting. It seems that you are rather talking about things which could be considered parasitic and opportunistic and could be viewed as entering the body/qi field because of flaws in its defensive qi. Kind of like qi parasites, is this more like what you mean?

 

Another interesting belief similar to the three worms is the seven po souls, these again are part of the body/qi field though way more active than the three worms. They are considered to be able to leave the body and run around at night hooting it up with 'real' demons, which they will sometimes bring back in the hope that they will kill the body, because when the body is dead the po souls are free. Since the po souls are part of the body/qi field they also cannot be exorcised, but rather there are a number of Daoist practices designed to 'ground' (as in, 'Whao dude, my parents were so angry about be being out til four in the morning last night, that I am like grounded, dude, grounded for like six months!') them so that they aren't running around wasting ones qi, or, in a worst case scenario wasting ones jing in a nocturnal emission, after a wild night with some slutty fox spirit.

 

In both of these cases one is quite literally dealing with 'personal' 'demons' as would necessarily be the case for any worldview that was as firmly based on the microcosm/macrocosm correspondence model as Daoism is, but this model also necessarily argues for the existence of demons that would be the macrocosmic counterparts of these internal ones. What one believes about these things depends largely on what one has learned in childhood, which become the unexamined presuppositions of ones adult worldview. The tenacity with which people will hold onto and defend these views, usually without the slightest willingness to even question them for a moment, is one of the reasons why in my posts on the historical development of the concept of demons I have attempted to refrained even from speculating about the ontological status of 'demons'. At the level of defending such fundamental preconceptions, often without even realizing what it is that people are doing, people usually just end out in a ridiculous and 'unmanly' name calling match. You can see it here among the Tao Bums, though it is not as bad here, as elsewhere on the internet, and of course it is pandemic to human society at large.

 

In any case, I hope to shortly be able to return to my posts about the historical development of the concept of 'demon'

[Stigweard]

[Zhongyongdaoist]

[WhiteTiger]

So White Tiger what do you want?

 

By the way I was born in the year of the Metal Tiger and I have always identified with the White Tiger of the West, so I am willing to go the distance for you.

 

Donald

 

Well personally I would choose to understand all the different types of explanations you offered.

(As probably noticed once you started to explain almost all those different types, which i should also find some energy to make sure i read through it all)

 

I also just want to point out one thing...

That I'm the Year of the Tiger.

A White Tiger happens to be my favorite animal and my forum name.

After I did a little looking up and cross referenced once through the net i found...

that I'm born as a Red Tiger.

 

I never intended to confuse my actual forum name with my birth.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

If you want a historical answer I can give it, and such an answer may even give some insight into what a 'demon' might be, should such a thing exist. However the answer is going to be long and somewhat involved and I might have to break it up into several parts. So White Tiger what do you want?

 

By the way I was born in the year of the Metal Tiger and I have always identified with the White Tiger of the West, so I am willing to go the distance for you.

Since you quoted me I thought I would add a little context to that quote. Your original question was 'What have you learned Constitutes a Demon?' The question that began this thread. I stated that I could give a historical account and said it might be a long and involved process. I then asked you what you wanted, which in the context was basically a question about what you wanted for an answer to your question about demons, would you like a historical answer. You didn't answer immediately, but both Stigweard and Rain expressed interest so I proceeded. When I said that I was willing to go the distance for you I meant it within the context of providing that historical answer, which I anticipated would require some amount of my time which I was willing to give to you and to the Tao Bums if people were interested.

 

I was surprised at how much time this project and some other topics I chose to post on have taken. Since I find myself with some leisure on my hands I have been able to keep up with the demands and address some other issues such as your own particular case. All I can say now is that after this upcoming week I will probably be forced to cut down on my posts, and may not be able to resume them in the manner that I have been. Regrettably I am not a "'junzi' (gentleman in this case) of leisure" and must return to doing the things that pay the rent and keep food on the table.

 

You do strike me as a person with potential who is having difficulties, but there are several young people who have posted, about whom I also feel concern. I am not sure how I can really help you in particular or others in this forum under my present circumstance, but believe me I am thinking about it.

 

I created Inner Sage Tao in order to help people establish harmony and balance in their lives, and created my site innersagetao.net to spread information about the system, however my work schedule and other things have made it extremely difficult to put the time into the project that it deserves and I almost took it down at the end of November 2008. Less than two weeks ago (somehow it seems much longer) I stumbled on The Tao Bums and decided I would join to see if I could find the inspiration to continue. I have never joined a forum like this before, but The Tao Bums seemed a little different, so I decided to go ahead and join. In the short time I have been posting and reading others post that general impression has remained, that this really is a forum that is worth participating in. I just have not figured out how or in what way I will be able to do so.

 

I am saying all of this because I want you to understand that if I cannot continue as I have been, it is not something that I want to do, but something which I may have to do.

 

Well personally I would choose to understand all the different types of explanations you offered.

(As probably noticed once you started to explain almost all those different types, which i should also find some energy to make sure i read through it all)

So regarding your wish to 'understand all the different types of explanations you offered', I may not be able to do more than finish out my original offer of giving an account of the historical development of the concept of 'demon'. That's not how I wish to leave the matter, but it may come to that. I have been looking at the resources that The Tao Bums provides and thinking about ways that my knowledge could be available to many people and in particular you, because I like the name which you chose for yourself and I think it is more meaningful than you originally thought when you chose it.

 

I also just want to point out one thing...

That I'm the Year of the Tiger.

A White Tiger happens to be my favorite animal and my forum name.

After I did a little looking up and cross referenced once through the net i found...

that I'm born as a Red Tiger.

 

I never intended to confuse my actual forum name with my birth.

It is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out isn't it? Am I correct in assuming that by Red Tiger you mean 1986 the year of the Fire Tiger? This is good because while I always envisioned you in your early 20s, I was a bit concerned that I might be dealing with someone under 18 and I wasn't sure what I would do in that circumstance. Also it is interesting because I began associating you with my favorite Fire Dog demon (well half-demon anyway) Inuyasha. I might have been picking up your fire and associating it with Inuyasha's red kimono. I was born in the month of the Fire Dog and found Inuyasha quite by chance in the episode in which the bandit Onigumo creates Naraku by what I can only characterize as a black magic version of the Tibetan Buddhist Chod Rite, fascinating stuff for an anime! I found myself almost unwillingly drawn into the story, I assume because of some hidden connection resulting from being born in the month of the Fire Dog. As I said at the beginning of this paragraph, it is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out.

 

As always I wish you the best. I hope to get back to my postings on 'demons' shortly, and to work out a way that I can make my knowledge available to you and others on the forum in a more effective manner.

[Spectrum]

This is where Martial Art crosses into Spiritual Art.

[WhiteTiger]

Since you quoted me I thought I would add a little context to that quote. Your original question was 'What have you learned Constitutes a Demon?' The question that began this thread. I stated that I could give a historical account and said it might be a long and involved process. I then asked you what you wanted, which in the context was basically a question about what you wanted for an answer to your question about demons, would you like a historical answer. You didn't answer immediately, but both Stigweard and Rain expressed interest so I proceeded. When I said that I was willing to go the distance for you I meant it within the context of providing that historical answer, which I anticipated would require some amount of my time which I was willing to give to you and to the Tao Bums if people were interested.

 

I was surprised at how much time this project and some other topics I chose to post on have taken. Since I find myself with some leisure on my hands I have been able to keep up with the demands and address some other issues such as your own particular case. All I can say now is that after this upcoming week I will probably be forced to cut down on my posts, and may not be able to resume them in the manner that I have been. Regrettably I am not a "'junzi' (gentleman in this case) of leisure" and must return to doing the things that pay the rent and keep food on the table.

 

You do strike me as a person with potential who is having difficulties, but there are several young people who have posted, about whom I also feel concern. I am not sure how I can really help you in particular or others in this forum under my present circumstance, but believe me I am thinking about it.

 

I created Inner Sage Tao in order to help people establish harmony and balance in their lives, and created my site innersagetao.net to spread information about the system, however my work schedule and other things have made it extremely difficult to put the time into the project that it deserves and I almost took it down at the end of November 2008. Less than two weeks ago (somehow it seems much longer) I stumbled on The Tao Bums and decided I would join to see if I could find the inspiration to continue. I have never joined a forum like this before, but The Tao Bums seemed a little different, so I decided to go ahead and join. In the short time I have been posting and reading others post that general impression has remained, that this really is a forum that is worth participating in. I just have not figured out how or in what way I will be able to do so.

 

I am saying all of this because I want you to understand that if I cannot continue as I have been, it is not something that I want to do, but something which I may have to do.

So regarding your wish to 'understand all the different types of explanations you offered', I may not be able to do more than finish out my original offer of giving an account of the historical development of the concept of 'demon'. That's not how I wish to leave the matter, but it may come to that. I have been looking at the resources that The Tao Bums provides and thinking about ways that my knowledge could be available to many people and in particular you, because I like the name which you chose for yourself and I think it is more meaningful than you originally thought when you chose it.

It is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out isn't it? Am I correct in assuming that by Red Tiger you mean 1986 the year of the Fire Tiger? This is good because while I always envisioned you in your early 20s, I was a bit concerned that I might be dealing with someone under 18 and I wasn't sure what I would do in that circumstance. Also it is interesting because I began associating you with my favorite Fire Dog demon (well half-demon anyway) Inuyasha. I might have been picking up your fire and associating it with Inuyasha's red kimono. I was born in the month of the Fire Dog and found Inuyasha quite by chance in the episode in which the bandit Onigumo creates Naraku by what I can only characterize as a black magic version of the Tibetan Buddhist Chod Rite, fascinating stuff for an anime! I found myself almost unwillingly drawn into the story, I assume because of some hidden connection resulting from being born in the month of the Fire Dog. As I said at the beginning of this paragraph, it is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out.

 

As always I wish you the best. I hope to get back to my postings on 'demons' shortly, and to work out a way that I can make my knowledge available to you and others on the forum in a more effective manner.

 

 

I will offer you this special piece of advice, and of course this is an opened forum so others will obviously get this insight weather i actually want them to or not.

 

The point of me saying this is for the better and not for the worse. Taking that into account I will take the action of Non Action to those whom use this advice to lure me. As I've found people actually do do such things, even on a TAO forum like this, even in buddhist temples.

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Its actually quite interesting on a completely intellectual level why and how people in buddhist temples, tao practitioners do such things.

 

Its even funnier that I am a on the road to be a martial artist because of fact i grew up in a family were the motto for everyone around me was its better to be a bad guy to mess with others so you could possibly get some benefit when you bring down someone.

At the same time me living in a family with that as "The Motto" and that I happen not to choose to follow the "The Family Motto". I've still found while I'm trying to figure out the best way to get rid of others bringing me down for their benefit i continue to fail at it.

 

Its funny because right now in my life I'm realizing everything in my life that i thought was so complicated, is extremely simple and easy. At least only recently. But some how I still fail to figure things out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So back to offering some special piece of insight about me that only has to do about currently where i am on my path:

To drop indirectness and trying to get me to do something, have more hidden intentions no matter how good willed they are for me (I may not actually be interested in them)

Where only expressing "openly through words" sharing some insight of reality (things i'm missing in the picture to help myself out) can change me from doing nothing to help myself to the extremely of helping myself out greatly far and wide.

 

The difference is everyone wants to play a game just to enter into that sort of relationship between two people where two people speak "openly through words" sharing insight of reality that people are missing in the picture.

 

 

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Working for something spending time for something, which is only a external way of doing some sort of energy work to help yourself or others out is a waste of time, at least in the sense when the intention is based upon some BS isn't the type of relationship that i'm interested in.

 

When we sit in meditation (energy work) to benefit ourself, or help others (for whatever energy exchange is going on) we do that intentionally, and taught how to do so.

 

While we are talking and conversing we are inwardly working on ourselves or just keeping everything in tune inwardly while conversing.

[WhiteTiger]

Let me be clear just to be clear for "the sakes of being clear" I can entertain the idea of exchange of energy between two people while interacting for a little while before I start to question and try to understand about whats really going on between the interaction... what kind of relationship am i really getting myself into, before spending time to get to know the persons intentions and their true interactions.

 

I'm a male, and i find its kind of like the interplay of me talking with a female whom of course attraction and flirting is going on. I don't drive immediately into a relationship with them without knowing them and understanding there intentions and interests.

 

I also on the other hand understand my interests and goals may be completely based on superficial things that have little meaning to self growth, and I am not interested in making bad choices. While discovering my arrogance and stupidity of what i have subconsciously produced or tried to I of course would like to take proper action and the right thing which would be the opposite of the superficial thing.

[Spectrum]

A person starts out pretty much in alignment.

Things tug on them from all directions.

The get out of alignment. They hurt.

The realize all the connections.

They let go of attachments.

They feel good a while.

They realize who be.

Mind Inside Out

Out Mind In

Spinning

Orbits

While

Lines

Draw

Tens

ions

toa

po

in

T

[三江源]

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by 三江源

[Stigweard]

Stig, I am sure you know this...but I'll say it anyway, for my own enjoyment and for anyone else who is interested... what you describe above in your personal account is what we would call in psychology a 'complex'.. we all have various complexes, that is to say clusters of unconscious neurotic responses and drivers. A lot of them relate to sex, and to God, as these are our two most vital connections. And in psychology we would believe them to be seeded in our earliest stages of nurturing. The purpose of psychotherapy is to strengthen the ego so that it can recognise the difference between a 'complex' and a genuine, chosen response. We would call this in meditation lingo 'developing the witness' , so that we no longer identify with our thoughts automatically.

Madness is believing our own complexes, and externalising them, and acting them out. Everyday neurosis is living a life driven by unrecognised comlexes.

One of the reasons I enjoy taoist work is because of the understanding of the hun and the po, and the very physical, deeply rooted in the body way of working with the psyche that it offers.

Because when complexes are running the show, the body doesnt get a look in, except as an object to be used for the needs of the complex..as in anorexia, bulimia, excessive body building, the cosmetic surgery that is becoming the norm, sex addiction, etc.

So I am impressed by your working out what was going on with you: top hole, dude.

 

Thank you very much for this Cat. The scientific process is about independent researchers confirming the same emperical frameworks, so it is wonderful to hear of mutually confirming working models such as you have accurately outlined.

 

You say the process is about developing our witness, what is totally intriguing for me was the fact that developing Qi sensitivity gave me this objective perception. I could feel these complexes directly and, over time, could feel them move in relation to the thoughts and feelings I was having. The observation occurred to me that if I could 'witness' the activity of these complexes then the witness was a more essential part of my being with the complexes being an abstraction or diversion away from this core.

 

These observations were also supported by witnessing how after qigong, taijiquan, or nei tan the 'presence' of these complexes were significantly reduced and only became apparent again after I had 'reinvested' thought and behaviour into their establishment.

 

In Taoist teaching it is said that you cannot cure the ills of the mind by using the mind. One translation of this is the consideration that, if the complexes (my psychodiverticuli) were the result of internal stress then by using one part of the mind to 'fix' another we create internal division and even more internal stress that could lead to further divisioning of consciousness.

 

Enter once again my deep love and gratitude to the Taoist arts because the arts of Qigong, Nei Tan etc heal the issue at the core. By purifying the foundation energy centres and by liberating ones Qi the energy 'stuck' in these complexes are released; my personal observations confirm this.

 

Cheers Cat ... I always treasure your comments.

 

Stig

[Zhongyongdaoist]

This is where Martial Art crosses into Spiritual Art.

 

A good observation Spectrum. There is a strong crossover here, because advanced martial artists were sometimes taught Dao Wu, what Saso calls 'Military Magic' in his The Teachings of Taoist Master Chuang. Military Magic consists of several interlocking disciplines including exorcism, magical attack and defense between fellow practitioners, and also the use of powerful spirits to influence the outcomes of military campaigns and battles.

 

It's a good thing that you brought this up because it has helped me focus on how to develop the next few installments of my account of the development of the concept of 'demons'. I hope to get back to posting later today or tomorrow. I am trying to get as much done before next Monday (when I will start to be very busy), as I can. I may even be able to finish it. What was a particular help was thinking about 'Military Magic' in China and Europe. As Idries Shah pointed out in his Oriental Magic, there are some striking similarities, however, there are also some fundamental differences.

[Spectrum]

There is a strong crossover ... to influence the outcomes of military campaigns and battles.

 

A Bow to you Sir Donald.

 

nFOFWD0bjf0

[Zhongyongdaoist]

One of the great tragedies of Chinese history was also a tragedy for the world. This was the great 'burning of the books' instituted by the first Qin Emperor. Vast amounts of ancient Chinese literature was destroyed and of what was preserved, that was endangered during the revolution that overthrew the Qin Dynasty and the subsequent chaos until the Han Dynasty could be established. Granted the survival of ancient literature is always difficult, and who knows what might have happened if all of the literature of Chinese Antiquity had been allowed to survive and a more natural process of preservation and weeding out had occurred, it might have made no real difference but maybe some important information would have survived.

 

One of the results of this was that when early Buddhist missionaries showed up in China in the late Han and for a few centuries thereafter they were welcomed by the Daoists as long lost brothers, even if long lost barbarian brothers. After all in what direction was Laozi headed on his ox when he delivered the Dao De Jing to the border guard Yin Xi? The result was that a lot of Buddhist teachings entered Daoism and became the models for Daoist Scriptures. There were also some interesting forgeries going on such as The Scripture of the Conversion of the Barbarians, which were used to support the Daoist claim to primacy. As Buddhism came more and more into its own in China, the Buddhists 'forged' back and a long cycle of polemical forgeries each lambasting and countering the others pretenses grew up. People with overly romanticized ideas about Buddhism and Daoism think that such things only happened in Western Religions ('The Testament of Orpheus' in the early Hellenistic period and 'The Donation of Constantine' around its end come immediately to mind), but the human proclivity to forge for the sake of 'Truth' is unbounded and reaches across historical and cultural boundaries to indict just about every organized religion in the world.

 

On a practical level the upshot was that the Daoist found themselves adopting Buddhist notions such as hungry ghosts and asuras in whole lots, as well as Buddhists hells and other fun things. While it is easy to identify some forms of Buddhist influence, such as I have mentioned, it is hard to say how much of what became Chinese beliefs and practices about demons was indigenous folklore and how much was derived from Indian folklore brought over in Buddhist sources. The folklore of most cultures is has similar themes and is seldom well documented.

 

Historically after about 500 AD, roughly the end of the Hellenistic period in Europe we find that the conflicts between Buddhists and Daoist were to become more strident. During the Tang dynasty the Buddhists were at something of a disadvantage since the Tang Imperial family considered themselves descendants of Laozi, they really tended to favor Daoism. When the Daoists were in power they would suppress the Buddhists and when the Buddhists were in power they would suppress the Daoists, the Confucians would suppress either or both as needed. This conflict naturally showed up on other levels than political and eventually each side believed, rightly or wrongly, that the other was was using supernatural means to interfere with their own conduct of 'True Religion'. The above hardly does justice to the complex and interesting strands, both those woven together and those torn apart during this period, but then neither did my consideration of the Western Hellenistic Period, some things need to be simplified and others just left out, if for no other reason than to keep these posts down to a few paragraphs as opposed to a small book.

 

As we move into the period from 500 AD to 1500 AD the Buddhist/Daoists conflict was to prove a major stimulus to the development of the lore of demons and the practices related to them, but before we get to that I will make a cross cultural comparison, between the Chinese and Christian notions of Hell and even find the beginnings of the doctrine of Purgatory in the dialogs of Plato. This will then be used to give some insight into the differences that developed in the concept of 'demons' between China and Europe.

[freesun]

Very informative, thank you!

[WhiteTiger]

To others and Zhongyongdaoist

As you see me regress in the amount and/or the way i post, I would like to point out i am spending time reading posts, and don't want to make anyone feel as if i did injustice by not reading the posts.

 

we all have various complexes, that is to say clusters of unconscious neurotic responses and drivers. A lot of them relate to sex, and to God, as these are our two most vital connections. And in psychology we would believe them to be seeded in our earliest stages of nurturing. The purpose of psychotherapy is to strengthen the ego so that it can recognise the difference between a 'complex' and a genuine, chosen response. We would call this in meditation lingo 'developing the witness' , so that we no longer identify with our thoughts automatically.

 

I identify with the meditation lingo "developing the witness".

 

I would like to learn more from anyone on the subject.

[Spectrum]

the ever silent observer. the watcher. the part that experiences change as imminant.

[WhiteTiger]

So regarding your wish to 'understand all the different types of explanations you offered', I may not be able to do more than finish out my original offer of giving an account of the historical development of the concept of 'demon'. That's not how I wish to leave the matter, but it may come to that. I have been looking at the resources that The Tao Bums provides and thinking about ways that my knowledge could be available to many people and in particular you, because I like the name which you chose for yourself and I think it is more meaningful than you originally thought when you chose it.

 

I would not think any less of you if you didn't end up geting me all the explanations offered. Although still very interested I am. So many things have changed since last these posts happened.

 

Anyway, White Tiger was always my favorite animal.

 

I sometimes have Old age reasoning skills and sometimes i have little kid reasonings to things.

 

I am interested in maybe learning the correlation that White Tiger has to do with me? The connections and so forth. But i guess thats more a different topic for a different thread or private messages.

 

It is sometimes odd how these coincidences work out isn't it? Am I correct in assuming that by Red Tiger you mean 1986 the year of the Fire Tiger?

That is correct

 

Is it correct that you saying your of the Red Dog that you in your early 60s?

 

Because its funny, I normally enjoy and very much interested in learning from older people as if their wisdom is sagely like. I don't find many young teachers that willing to give any sage wisdom as if its given in a sagely manor or weather its just some intellectual knowledge that seems dull, AND MOST LIKELY presented in a dull fashion, only at surface value.

 

the ever silent observer. the watcher. the part that experiences change as imminant.

 

Thank you Spectrum.

 

I was talking more like practices instead of insight.

 

Insight is learn through diligent practicing.

 

Plus insight is not exactly what i value the most unless of course without the insight i seem to have a hard time continuing to practice.

 

Like basically there are about three different ways to go about dealing with things in my personal opinion, one is just to do whats ethically right, another is to spend energy to overcome obstacles which deal with enduring while issues happening, and the third is understanding the situation.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The principle difference between the Chinese view of the underworld and the one that came to dominate the west was that it was more like the view of the underworld that Plato portrays in his Gorgias, both of these were like the Roman Catholic Purgatory, but not 'hell'. The difference being that while the Chinese hells and Plato's underworld basically prepared people to be reborn on earth, the Roman Catholic Purgatory prepared people for glorification in heaven.

 

In both the Chinese underworld and in Plato's underworld some souls might be confined forever because they were damaged beyond repair. The cultural differences are interesting, while it is possible that a Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy may never leave Plato's underworld, he specifically mentions the abuse of political power as something that could get you stuck in the underworld forever or at least a very long time. In the Chinese underworld suicide seems to be unforgivable and in some belief systems (though most religious authorities condemned this) accidental death.

 

In Chinese beliefs, proper religious intervention could get you out of hell earlier, but, Plato probably would not allow that because he looked at such intervention as an attempt to 'bribe the Gods' and subvert Justice, and he was extremely critical of that idea. Plato felt that such attitudes encouraged bad behavior because of the 'wiggle room' it left for people to hope that they might get away with their 'crimes'. Religious intervention will certainly mitigate the stays in the Chinese underworld and possibly even help suicides, and of course the religious intervention offered by the pre-Reformation Catholic clergy was one of the 'scandals' that helped to bring about the Reformation itself.

 

Now it was the similarity to Plato's Gorgias that caused Protestant Christians to reject the Catholic view of Purgatory as a 'Pagan error' which had crept into Christianity and subverted true religion and such 'Pagan errors' were part of the reason why the Pope was the anti-Christ, or at least so the early Protestants like to think. There is another much misunderstood part of the Roman Catholic afterlife, and that is Limbo. This is the place where virtuous Pagans such as Socrates (remember what I said in a previous post about Justin Martyr and his belief of Socrates as a pre-Christian Christian?) would hang out, it was also of course the place for unbaptized babies, which having died before they could commit personal sin could not be condemned, but were also not on the Christian fast track to Heaven either. Two interesting literary uses of Limbo are in Dante's Divine Comedy, Limbo is where Dante meets Virgil, a virtuous Pagan if ever there was one, and on the other side of the Protestant divide is Marlowe's Dr. Faustus. In Dr. Faustus fascinating first discussion with Mephistopheles, Mephistopheles does everything he can do dissuade Faustus from following through in his intention, perhaps the demonic equivalent of 'full disclosure', but Faustus believes he '...confounds hell in Elysium', in other words, Faustus is claiming to be a virtuous Pagan and hopes that he will maintain that status and avoid Hell. Marlowe's whole drama is about how there's no such thing as a virtuous Pagan and Faustus cannot avoid fate which he is creating for himself, except through the saving power of Christ whom Faustus denies to the end.

 

So the Chinese and Platonic underworlds have more in common with Purgatory than Hell, and there is something else as well, which is that the Chinese and Platonic underworlds are run as part of the cosmic order for the ultimate benefit of their temporary residents, either to prepare them for a future life reborn on earth or in the case of Purgatory for glorification in heaven. Suffering was viewed almost as a type of 'tough love' therapy for those souls who made poor choices in life.

 

The Roman Catholic Hell, on the other hand, was very different, it was a place of exile, run by those who were exiled there. This one of the reasons why it is not a happy place to be, if you think of a prison run by the inmates, by their rules and for their purposes, well you get the picture. So the myths of the 'rebellious' angels, which I mentioned in a previous post, became the dominant influence in Christian ideas about hell, and here is where we start to get into the notion of 'demons' as they were to develop in the West, in a way quite different from 'daimons', much less the Gods. An important part of their definition is their rebellion and their being against the divinely instituted order. We will take a closer look at both these rebellious spirits in the West and how they differed from their Chinese counterparts next time.

[WhiteTiger]

One of the things I like about the Daoist religious system is that, at least on certain levels it is very systematic, and it is systematic on a fundamental level

 

Very interesting, I think Daoist practices, when learning about Daoism You start to learn the real deal at the systematic fundamental levels. I'm sure as you continue your practice, the actual more deeper (without going crazy) you get into it the more and more you see it as being systematic.

 

My experiencing Daoism, and there was much improper stuff, like practices, teachings and teachers, I had to go through before really grasping some basic fundamentals, but oh my I don't at all feel that i did anything less of a lot of cultivation just to grasp that information.

 

Oddly enough in my experience i'm always seeming to repair my foundation or strengthen it, as if i had important pieces missing about it of course those pieces weren't taught to me. This in my opinion is very unfortunate.

 

In conclusion, I suspect at deeper levels of Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, they are still very systematic.

 

 

As I studied Qabalah its systematic structure became something that I really valued, but Gnostic 'revelations' seemed too scattered and incoherent. Thus Qabalah would remain with me long after I lost any real interest in Gnosticism. I even worked out a 'Platonic' Qabalah long before David Godwin published his Light in Extension.

 

Interesting, to hear Qabalah has a systematic structure.

Edited January 27, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Very interesting, I think Daoist practices, when learning about Daoism You start to learn the real deal at the systematic fundamental levels. I'm sure as you continue your practice, the actual more deeper (without going crazy) you get into it the more and more you see it as being systematic.

Daoist religious meditation/ritual is all based on a simple diagram of nine squares, with the numbers 1 through 9 arranged in it so that added horizontally, vertically, or on the diagonals always add up to 15. This is the simplest of a large family of mathematical objects known as magic squares. This is the basis of the famous Ho t'u diagram, many Tao Bums may know it as the basis of Nine Star Astrology, and in the West it is known as the the magic square of Saturn, part of a family of magic squares of from 9 to 81 squares associated with each of the Planets.

 

This square becomes a means of organizing the primary symbols of Chinese Cosmology, such as the Five Elements, the Eight Trigrams, and the Nine Stars. In Daoist ritual it is combined with the Twelve Earthly Branches to give the basic plan of the ritual Dan (Tan) and is also the basis for the Mudras that the Daoist initiate makes with his left had and uses as part of his ritual and meditation. In these meditations Heaven, Earth and Man are united, for the five elements exist not only in the world around one, but in ones body as the five yin organs, in the earth as the five Directions and the Heavens as the five Planets. These five aspects of the elements are personified by the Emperors of the Five Directions. These Emperors are given a place within each of the Five Yin Organs as well as a space in the Dan, thus indicating the fundamental relation of similarity between man and the cosmos. The Three Pure Ones are the personification of jing, qi and shen and are to be found both within the Lower, Middle and Upper Dan of the initiate, but also along the North Wall of the Dan. Even the Ling Bao True Writs which are the talismanic basis of the meditation/ritual are planted in the cross quarters of Northeast, Southeast, etc. where the four earthly branches that correspond to earth, the Ox, the Dragon, the Ram and the Dog are to be found.

 

This is in part what I refer to as the systematic basis of Daoist rituals and it is very precise. There is more to this systematic aspect but that gives an idea. When I first read about this in Michael Saso's Taoism and the Rite of Cosmic Renewal back around 1976 I was completely fascinated by it and saw ways that it might be integrated with another similar structure to which I had been giving much thought, the Temple patterns of the Golden Dawn initiatory system. They seemed to complement each other nicely since the Golden Dawn system is based on an East/West pattern and the Daoist system a North/South one. In any case such thoughts became the basis of my efforts to integrate Chinese and Western esoteric systems.

 

For those not familiar with it the Golden Dawn was a group formed in the late 19th century, its best know members being the Irish poet William Butler Yeats, and the occultist Aleister Crowley. In one form or another it pretty much dominated the whole of the 20th century esoteric revival in the English speaking world, though Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society was to have a huge influence on a more popular level, making karma and reincarnation notions practically taken for granted by the 'new age movement'.

 

In conclusion, I suspect at deeper levels of Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, they are still very systematic.

 

See Charles Luk Taoist Yoga, p. 4, '...the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolized by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen); the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming), and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality.'

 

Interesting, to hear Qabalah has a systematic structure.

 

Qabalah is a huge subject some of which is very systematic and some of it not, but I was particularly referring to the Tree of Life as understood by the occultists of the Golden Dawn, of course their version has its roots in the Sepher ha Yetzirah, the Book of Formation which goes back to Hellenistic times.

[Spectrum]

Systematical Organix

[Apech]

 

 

So the Chinese and Platonic underworlds have more in common with Purgatory than Hell, and there is something else as well, which is that the Chinese and Platonic underworlds are run as part of the cosmic order for the ultimate benefit of their temporary residents, either to prepare them for a future life reborn on earth or in the case of Purgatory for glorification in heaven. Suffering was viewed almost as a type of 'tough love' therapy for those souls who made poor choices in life.

 

The Roman Catholic Hell, on the other hand, was very different, it was a place of exile, run by those who were exiled there. This one of the reasons why it is not a happy place to be, if you think of a prison run by the inmates, by their rules and for their purposes, well you get the picture. So the myths of the 'rebellious' angels, which I mentioned in a previous post, became the dominant influence in Christian ideas about hell, and here is where we start to get into the notion of 'demons' as they were to develop in the West, in a way quite different from 'daimons', much less the Gods. An important part of their definition is their rebellion and their being against the divinely instituted order. We will take a closer look at both these rebellious spirits in the West and how they differed from their Chinese counterparts next time.

 

 

Apologies for being a late arrival at the demon ball - I have only just discovered this thread. I became so engrossed in reading the various posts that I have missed a meeting I was supposed to attend ... and will have to apologize to them even more than I am doing to you.

 

I am interested in concepts of hell (doesn't hell mean 'light'?) particularly because I think the Christian hell is a distorted version of what the ancient world would have understood to be dimension(s) of the created world accessible particularly after death. The Buddhist hells seem to be the kind of bottom end (and most unpleasant/painful) of the samsaric wheel and simply serve to illustrate how dangerous our projected state of being can become if we are locked into pride, greed and so on.

 

In the Egyptian underworld (Dwat or duat) there is something called the 'lake of fire'. This lake has a dual function. It burns out impurities but it also has the power of renewal. It is nasty for the nasty but beneficial to the good. But the view, really, is functional. Judgement took place in the Judgement Hall by means of the Negative Confession (which I notice someone on here quoted in the Gossamer thread) - these were a mixture of moral statements (like - I haven't killed anyone) and statements about not breaching religious etiquette (like - I haven't looked at the sky while prostrating). Anyway - it seems that this 'hell'- space into which people enter on death has the property of reflecting back onto the individual their own character or state of being. In this life, in this world we have a kind of anchor in our body and have the protection of being involved in an apparently stable(?) outer world. But in the next we are directly subject to consequences of our actions and our nature. For me this gives some impetus to the idea that I should strive to improve myself!

 

A.

[gossamer]

I guess that I should say that in my younger years I experimented with magic as a Gardnerian (so-called) "wiccan", and later as a family/'Traditional witch'.

 

I left all of that because I saw that 98% of it was about power, sex or money.....money, sex or power, sex, money or power, and that most the people involved were not the kind of people that I wanted to associate with, or to have as friends.

 

I have in my later years been pretty involved with Celtic Christianity, Early Aramaic "Christianity", Quakerism, and with philsophical Daoism.

 

Having said all of that, I think that negative entities pretty much need BODIES to work with and through.

 

They USE (in the most literal sense of the word) human beings to work through.

 

A lot of these types of people (but not ALL, by any means) are usually involved in occultic stuff, and don't mind being used, because they get "a charge" by being used.....and a lot of them are involved with the occult because of the three reasons that I spoke about in the second paragraph of this post.

 

So, demons without "hosts", is a kind of oxymoron really.

 

Demons need people=people need demons.

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited March 23, 2009 by gossamer

[Zhongyongdaoist]