kunlun book questions

[Trixter Streetcat]

hey bums,

 

i recently received the Kunlun book by post, and am looking forward to beginning practice. I do however, have some questions, and probably many more to come that I will post on this thread.

 

as I understand, level one (which seems pretty simple) must be practiced for at least 6 months before going ahead. I understand one must be celibate for at least 100 days.

firstly, what would happen if I wasn't celibate? would this have a terrible effect on the practice?

secondly, I see there is a chapter on semen retention using the old hui-yin pressure point at the moment of orgasm. is this (by unanimous opinion) safe? any energetic or sexual problems that may ensue from that practice?

 

so, as i'll be going ahead with level one right away, I guess we can skip 2 and 3 level questions. now, from chapter 11 onwards, there is a bunch of chapters with complementary practices. when is a good time to start these practices (Jongs, Maoshan traveling hands and secret of the golden flower, five elements, Red Sun, travelling the peaks of Mt Kunlun etc...)? are these practices supposed to begin at level 1, or should I focus on the main practice and leave these for the other levels?

 

I guess that's all for now. thanks for your replies.

 

streetcat.

[Yoda]

the celibacy thing for guys is for going hardcore. Just play with K1 for the moment and see if you like it first.

[Trunk]

To add a tad to Yoda's excellent response,

I see there is a chapter on semen retention using the old hui-yin pressure point at the moment of orgasm. is this (by unanimous opinion) safe? any energetic or sexual problems that may ensue from that practice?

Nope and yup, respectively.

Michael Winn's write-up on this topic.

[Trixter Streetcat]

ok, so that officially puts the huiyin technique out of the question. would there be similar problems if, say, I was to retain ejaculation using the mula bandha constriction at the point of orgasm, thus having sex while retaining seed? is there the same risk of "congestion" if i simply have sex without ejaculating?

 

don't think i'll remain celibate though

[farmerjoe]

I'm wondering why it's in the book then. Are there those that practice Kunlun and this technique that feel that it is safe? Joe.

[Aetherous]

I think it's a useless technique...besides being dangerous. Aroused "jing" does nothing for me personally.

[Mal]

[farmerjoe]

[joeblast]

the biggest issue with the hy press is stagnation..prostate, vas defs, etc...dont wanna get those clogged. you'd better be doing a shitload of ab breathing exercises if you're doing any of that stuff, but if you're concerned with safety, just do like the rest of us and dont do it at all

 

streetcat, for starters, do the jongs and 5e standing, before your k1 sessions. kinda 'ramps up the energy potential', so to speak. make sure you do enough closedown when you're done!

 

I dont know that (m)any of us have done the 100 days and actually finished. doing that is supposed to help the energy reach a critical mass of sorts and makes it easier for you to recognize what the kunlun energy is, feels like, how to activate it. group practice every so often definitely helps, seems to be collective in a way. not that I've done any outside of the two seminars I've been to...but the second seminar it just kinda clicked with me, how to recognize and use it. to do that you need to let go of any expectations of what it is or might be, because that will only get in the way of you actually experiencing it.

 

joe, while max isnt on the forum all the time, he does pop on occasionally, and there are a bunch of us there that have been practicing a while and can answer questions. perhaps not quite as thoroughly or authoritatively as Max, but there's still help...I dont know about messing yourself up with the huiyin press though as far as normal aspects of practice, as long as you follow recommendations like closing down properly & sufficiently, smile and dont furrow the brow, stay calm and relaxed, dont force things...you should be fine - hence the teacher showing you that you dont need a teacher. you initially need the teacher, but once you are familiar with the practice and get to know yourself better, most discussion between pupils is plenty sufficient.

[farmerjoe]

[joeblast]

hahaa...yeah, we asked Max about that and he responded that if we attend a seminar, its just as good because the transmission he gives is sort of a jump start. But if you cant make it to a seminar, 100 days should be able to 'build that mass of energy enough to awaken the kunlun energy'...so to speak. I think the thing is, some people have messed themselves up by overusing the huiyin technique, so every once in a while probably wont hurt you, but if you're punchin the clown 3x a day and doing the press every time...well, extrapolate from there

 

the thing with some people not resonating with kunlun is...well, no single practice is perfect for everyone. if the shoe fits, wear it, and it might just be strong enough to turn goat piss into gasoline!

 

as far as other practices max teaches, it depends what your goals are with your own practice. there's a bunch he taught us that I dont do even though I know how to, simply because through practice you get to know yourself better, and some of them I am simply not ready for, have other things to digest first, etc...

[Trunk]

is there the same risk of "congestion" if i simply have sex without ejaculating?

For all newbies: browse alchemicaltaoism.com.

 

I'm wondering why it's in the book then.

Because incomplete / incorrect information re: sexual practices is rampant. Lots and lots of books, some of them with pieces of the puzzle, none of them with reliable complete information. It's that bad.

[Trixter Streetcat]

thank you joeblast for the advice and information, those jongs do look pretty interesting, i think i'll start with i-jong and add the other 5 later on. i'm interested in i-jong for the martial arts benefits, do you know anything about this?

 

also, what's the deal with the closedown? what's it for, what does it do and what would be the effect of skipping it?

 

i started the kunlun L1 today. Not the full hour, just like twenty-minutes half-an-hour just to see what it was about. the shaking began almost right away but i felt silly and thought it was imply an offshoot of the position. I spiralled from the thigh for a while (clockwise? counterclockwise? both?) and since I wasn't feeling anything I stopped after a while. afterwards, while closing down, i did feel a very mild tingling feeling in the belly and a very faint sensation in the crown area, which I checked from the book were expected sensations after the set. i think those were the first signs. i liked it, will try it again tomorrow for the full hour, maybe with i-jong to prepare.

 

any additional advice, anyone?

[farmerjoe]

For all newbies: browse alchemicaltaoism.com.

 

Because incomplete / incorrect information re: sexual practices is rampant. Lots and lots of books, some of them with pieces of the puzzle, none of them with reliable complete information. It's that bad.

Okay. I have to say that all of this hasn't made me feel good about learning from the Kunlun book.I'm going to wait to order it until there's a new updated version that details the problems with the hui-yin technique and offers more user friendly ones. Thankyou joeblast and special thanks to Trunk. I got my copy of the "Bushman Shaman" and will read that in the meantime as well as try a couple of things Yoda mentioned in another thread to get me started. Joe.

[Aetherous]

Trixster,

 

I'll give my opinions here. I'm not a teacher or anything, just a fellow practitioner:

 

i'm interested in i-jong for the martial arts benefits, do you know anything about this?

 

Relaxation in the postures is the key. Using the minimum amount of effort and tension. If you're feeling pain or stress, and you're using too much of your muscles, you need to relax and release more. Maybe your alignment is off, too, if you're feeling pain and tension. Change your posture so that it's easier if necessary. Also, make sure your spine is straight and open and that your body is stacked from the feet up (the bottom being the foundation, and the upper parts of the body simply sit on the lower parts, like a mountain). Get "The Way of Qigong" by Kenneth Cohen and apply all of the aspect of standing meditation to it...it's the best resource I've ever found on the principles of standing.

 

The martial benefits come entirely from being able to use the whole body as one unit with the least amount of effort or strain. This is made possible by having the correct alignment, and releasing of unnecessary tension.

 

also, what's the deal with the closedown? what's it for, what does it do and what would be the effect of skipping it?

 

It stores excess energy in the lower dan tien area, by putting the palms on the navel. The effect of skipping it could be that you get too much energy than your body can handle, and you can become ungrounded by that energy being too stuck in the head. It helps to drain the energy down from the head.

 

An effect I had of doing it for too long was feeling run down and tired. So there's a healthy medium to closing down. Do it so that you feel normal. If you find that you need more grounding and have too much energy outside of practice, you can simply put your hands on the belly and do more closing down...there's no rule that says you have to do it all at the end of your session. Experiment!

 

i started the kunlun L1 today. Not the full hour, just like twenty-minutes half-an-hour just to see what it was about.

 

Go with what feels right. I don't think it's necessary to do the full hour. That can bring up too much stuff than your body can handle. If that's the case, drink more water...to help the body deal with the imbalance better. You should feel good and normal in your life outside of practice. If not, then something might need to be changed. And most likely you'll get the guidance from within on what to do...just go with what you think is right. Trust your intuition. And never be afraid to ask your fellow practitioners for help.

 

the shaking began almost right away but i felt silly and thought it was imply an offshoot of the position. I spiralled from the thigh for a while (clockwise? counterclockwise? both?) and since I wasn't feeling anything I stopped after a while. afterwards, while closing down, i did feel a very mild tingling feeling in the belly and a very faint sensation in the crown area, which I checked from the book were expected sensations after the set. i think those were the first signs. i liked it, will try it again tomorrow for the full hour, maybe with i-jong to prepare.

 

Whatever the body does is good. The point is not to hold the posture. If you move out of it, then go with that. The posture is only to jump start the inner energy (which you might not be able to feel right away, but after a few months you will be able to kind of understand), which makes the body move to adjust itself towards balance. The adjustment is the key, not the building of the energy...so let it happen.

 

any additional advice, anyone?

 

Don't try to feel anything, or make anything happen. Just keep it to the very basics: go into the posture and let whatever happens happen. Distinguish your control of the body, and let it go.

 

Relax all day...and realize that trying to relax isn't relaxing. Stop trying to do things...any effort we put forth towards achieving things keeps us from achieving them. On this path, the less we try - the quicker we advance. All that's required is practice and the knowledge that we can't force anything...this is a water path, so the more we're adaptable and fluid like water, the more the power will flow downward into us. The more we're firey and tense, trying to force things, the less room and openness there is for the downward flow.

 

Surrender to love and peace, which will naturally rise in you more and more. Follow your heart/your feelings, and don't give up your ability to make rational decisions and think clearly. It's good to trust your inner guidance above what anyone says...even Max.

[Trunk]

I'm going to wait to order it until there's a new updated version that details the problems with the hui-yin technique and offers more user friendly ones.

If you're waiting on your spiritual work until someone is really clear on the sexual issue... you might go your whole life waiting. It's a complex subject, and people vary: the right advice for one person can be very detrimental to another. The "100 days" thing, as a blanket statement and taken out of complex context, is reckless advice. And most young people are not given a good foundational understanding about what a healthy sex life is, so they're too impressionable - and often very dedicated to their spiritual path. It's tricky.

 

The best short pieces of "advice for everyone" I've heard is:

1. From a SunDo teacher, "just be natural" + "we're trying to build energy so, don't be excessive" but mostly just be natural.

- and -

2. Someone here (hagar?, I think hagar said it) at TTBs said something like, "most important that you're relaxed and happy".

 

The basic kunlun method is one of the best methods that this community has found, with many people here in the cyber-community searching all over for quite some years. Really the advice/warnings around it are mild: 1) relax into it and 2) don't go gonzo with it, that is - don't go too fast. It's a pretty sweet technique. Super simple.

 

Contrary to myth, no teacher/school is perfect. (We all have our foibles.) Best to learn from what a school is providing well. (Learning to sort that out takes some practice but, like everything else, experience adds up. Live & learn.)

 

cheers,

Trunk

Edited January 9, 2009 by Trunk

[Mal]

[lino]

[de_paradise]

I dont see the issue with *just* 100 days. Is it really that long to not jerk off?

 

 

If you have a partner you must service, its more complicated of course. Master Nan and Bodri are constantly emphasizing the need for not wasting jing in order to acheive rapid spiritual progress. They may be wrong, but I would rather not err on the side of the pro-wankers.

[joeblast]

*looks at mole hill, decides not to call it a mountain*

[Trunk]

I dont see the issue with *just* 100 days. Is it really that long to not jerk off?

I'll say it again: people vary.

Gender, genetics, body type, age, energetic configuration, (astrology, if you believe in that), acquired conditioning, development (and/or injuries) from practice...

For many men, not ej'ing for 100 days will be physically impossible and a dedicated attempt will only cause disharmony. For some others, it will be successful and a real boon towards their development.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Trunk

[joeblast]

curious timing...reposting an amusing story I read on the FT board (with poster's permission, of course )

 

 

A story...

 

There was once a group of monks living in a monastery somewhere deep in china. One day a newly recruited monk came to the grand abbot and asked, "Abbot, I spend all day copying text after text from the library but never once have i read the original. How do we know what we are writing is accurate?"

 

"That is a good question." The Abbot said, "Why dont you go down into the archives and find the original?"

 

The Abbot chuckled as he watched the newly appointed monk descend the long winding staircase down into the cellars.

 

It took three days before people began to notice that one of the monks was missing from the monastery. People began to ask the abbot and all he remembered was having sent the monk down to look for the original text.

 

After six days the abbot himself became worried and sent another monk down to find him.

 

After nine days he sent another to find the one he had sent.

 

And after 12, another...

 

15, another...

 

18 another...

 

After 21 days the Abbot was fed up and went down to find out himself what was going on. As he descended the final stairs he was shocked to see the monks in a delirious state. One was crying, another dancing, another praying and on and on. The abbot grabbed one monk and shook him, yelling at him he asked, "What is going on down here that I have missed?!"

 

The monk answered him crying, "We missed the R! We missed the R!"

 

Confused the abbot asked, "What R?!"

 

The monk responded, "It said celebrate!.. CELEBRATE!"

 

Immediately the Abbot broke down in tears and was enlightened.

[Aetherous]

[farmerjoe]

Funny! From what I've read so far it feels like it's good to be cautious especially if it could lead to health problems. I'm just not going to go there right now. I'm in no rush for any of this. Thanks to everyone for the great advice. Joe.

[Trixter Streetcat]

that was a good story.

 

scotty, thanks you for your comments, you've been very helpful. i will not hesitate to ask more questions in the future