taichi and brazilian jiujitsu

[Trixter Streetcat]

hey bums,

 

to tell you the truth, I haven't even begun studying tai chi full on, just very basic basics. but I was also interested in learning something a bit more straightforward like brazilian jiu jitsu. any experienced martial artists who might have any thoughts into how this combination might work?

 

cheerio.

[Stigweard]

hey bums,

 

to tell you the truth, I haven't even begun studying tai chi full on, just very basic basics. but I was also interested in learning something a bit more straightforward like brazilian jiu jitsu. any experienced martial artists who might have any thoughts into how this combination might work?

 

cheerio.

 

Can't comment of BJJ ... but Taiji and Systema work a treat!

[Spirit Ape]

It works well!

[Yuen Biao]

hey bums,

 

to tell you the truth, I haven't even begun studying tai chi full on, just very basic basics. but I was also interested in learning something a bit more straightforward like brazilian jiu jitsu. any experienced martial artists who might have any thoughts into how this combination might work?

 

cheerio.

 

I know a little of BJJ and I do think it compliments Taijiquan well as the two are based on balance, leverage and most importantly evasiveness.

Taijiquan is really a stand up form of grappling, and designed to floor or drop an opponent; when you know the philosophy/system well then it can be applied to grappling on the ground too.

 

In principle the two are very alike as they are founded upon similar foundations.

[Stigweard]

I know a little of BJJ and I do think it compliments Taijiquan well as the two are based on balance, leverage and most importantly evasiveness.

Taijiquan is really a stand up form of grappling, and designed to floor or drop an opponent; when you know the philosophy/system well then it can be applied to grappling on the ground too.

 

In principle the two are very alike as they are founded upon similar foundations.

 

True it is that Taiji can be applied as a grappling style. However if the art is not well rounded with the four categories then it is not complete. These four are: kicking (Ti), striking (Da), wrestling (Shuai), and catching and locking (Na).

[Yuen Biao]

True it is that Taiji can be applied as a grappling style. However if the art is not well rounded with the four categories then it is not complete. These four are: kicking (Ti), striking (Da), wrestling (Shuai), and catching and locking (Na).

 

There are plenty of the above contained within Taijiquan.

[doc benway]

BJJ and Taiji contain similar elements and principles - yielding, neutralizing, balance, leverage, joint locking.

I think the two compliment each other very nicely. In addition, the softness of Taiji form practice is a nice balance to the intensity of grappling drills just like it compliments the martial and competetive components of Taiji training. To really round out a fighter, however, I think a striking art like Muay Thai or something similar is valuable.

[Guest sykkelpump]

.

Edited January 9, 2009 by sykkelpump

[thaddeus]

hey bums,

 

to tell you the truth, I haven't even begun studying tai chi full on, just very basic basics. but I was also interested in learning something a bit more straightforward like brazilian jiu jitsu. any experienced martial artists who might have any thoughts into how this combination might work?

 

cheerio.

You can try thinking of it this way..First you have a martial art principle, from the principle you derive strategies, from the strategy you derive your applications and techniques. The main principle of taichi is returning to balance or wuji. The main strategy is 'no force' or 'not doing'. The applications and techniques are endless. To learn proper taichi, you should be learning it's principles and strategies. To only focus on the applications is missing the main point of this art and will leave you with a limited view of taichi..e.g. taichi is only throws or locks or strikes or limited in some way. Brazilian jujitsu can be one interpretation or application of taichi principles. You can do BJJ with brute force and overcome weaker opponents. I think this is basically low level skill and only focuses on the external strategies that only work because you are bigger, faster, stronger. A deep study of taichi can help you do the BJJ techniques with a higher level of skill and overcome bigger faster opponents.

But this is all academic unless you can find a teacher who will show you this stuff.

 

T

[Guest sykkelpump]

You can try thinking of it this way..First you have a martial art principle, from the principle you derive strategies, from the strategy you derive your applications and techniques. The main principle of taichi is returning to balance or wuji. The main strategy is 'no force' or 'not doing'. The applications and techniques are endless. To learn proper taichi, you should be learning it's principles and strategies. To only focus on the applications is missing the main point of this art and will leave you with a limited view of taichi..e.g. taichi is only throws or locks or strikes or limited in some way. Brazilian jujitsu can be one interpretation or application of taichi principles. You can do BJJ with brute force and overcome weaker opponents. I think this is basically low level skill and only focuses on the external strategies that only work because you are bigger, faster, stronger. A deep study of taichi can help you do the BJJ techniques with a higher level of skill and overcome bigger faster opponents.

But this is all academic unless you can find a teacher who will show you this stuff.

 

T

 

Hmm,sure you know what brazilian jiu jutsu is?

The whole idea behind bjj is to use technique to overecome a bigger stronger opponent.Thats why bjj has been so effective in mma.Tai chi is a standing practice while bjj is mostly on the ground.You certainly have no idea at all what you are talking about.

[thaddeus]

Hmm,sure you know what brazilian jiu jutsu is?

The whole idea behind bjj is to use technique to overecome a bigger stronger opponent.Thats why bjj has been so effective in mma.Tai chi is a standing practice while bjj is mostly on the ground.You certainly have no idea at all what you are talking about.

Why don't you read what i wrote more carefully.

T

[Guest sykkelpump]

Why don't you read what i wrote more carefully.

T

 

I did.Maybe you should take a second look yourself

[thaddeus]

Hmm,sure you know what brazilian jiu jutsu is?

The whole idea behind bjj is to use technique to overecome a bigger stronger opponent.Thats why bjj has been so effective in mma.Tai chi is a standing practice while bjj is mostly on the ground.You certainly have no idea at all what you are talking about.

Doesn't every martial art claim to be able to overcome bigger/stronger/faster opponents? That's the limitation of a technique based perspective. When two opponents know the same techniques, the stronger/faster will prevail. Taichi is beyond technique. Think of it as an abstraction of principles and strategies that can make your BJJ skill higher. For example, if you have two BJJ fighters who know the same techniques, the one that can flow better (meaning relax/yield/listen) can prevail, not the stronger one.

I'm not interested in fighting about this, if you want to have a decent discussion about this i'll continue, if you want to attack me personally for trying to contribute to the thread then i'm done commenting on this stuff.

T

[Starjumper]

When two opponents know the same techniques, the stronger/faster will prevail.

 

 

When two opponents know the same techniques the most sensitive one will prevail =)

 

-------------

 

I met an out of town BJJ master who was visiting my applications class to take some lessons, which teaches the combat applications of tai chi. I said I had been having a debate about the idea that a good tai chi player would be able to slip out of any take down attempt and asked him what he thought. He said it didn't matter because tai chi methods work just as well on the floor as they do standing up.

 

However, any good tai chi person would be able to skip out of any take down attempt, and kill the attacker while they are at it too.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Starjumper7

[Taiji Bum]

I met an out of town BJJ master who was visiting my applications class to take some lessons, which teaches the combat applications of tai chi. I said I had been having a debate about the idea that a good tai chi player would be able to slip out of any take down attempt and asked him what he thought. He said it didn't matter because tai chi methods work just as well on the floor as they do standing up.

 

However, any good tai chi person would be able to skip out of any take down attempt, and kill the attacker while they are at it too.

Why didn't you just let him try and take you down? Experience is king! I've done this with tons of judo guys and its only the BIG black belts who can take me down. I know you have only been at taijiquan a few years but still it is an awesome experience to get "taken down" by a professional who is good enough to not hurt you.... especially when your bones start getting old. LOL I had this one black belt throw me and it just felt magical. He was a black belt in both judo and brazillian jujitsu and I landed like a feather. You can learn a lot by losing.

 

EDIT: Its also magical how fast egos disappear when you take it to the mats all the time. A lot of taijiquan guys dont know how bad they are and think that practicing the form is just going to magically make them a killing machine... and they act like it.

Edited January 10, 2009 by DarinHamel

[thaddeus]

EDIT: Its also magical how fast egos disappear when you take it to the mats all the time. A lot of taijiquan guys dont know how bad they are and think that practicing the form is just going to magically make them a killing machine... and they act like it.

Yes! On a related note, I feel aikido can be improved with better randori.

T

[adam mizner]

taiji has plenty of striking.

 

metta

adam

 

BJJ and Taiji contain similar elements and principles - yielding, neutralizing, balance, leverage, joint locking.

I think the two compliment each other very nicely. In addition, the softness of Taiji form practice is a nice balance to the intensity of grappling drills just like it compliments the martial and competetive components of Taiji training. To really round out a fighter, however, I think a striking art like Muay Thai or something similar is valuable.

 

 

you got it, just get your hands on people loosing is great!!!

 

metta

adam

 

Why didn't you just let him try and take you down? Experience is king! I've done this with tons of judo guys and its only the BIG black belts who can take me down. I know you have only been at taijiquan a few years but still it is an awesome experience to get "taken down" by a professional who is good enough to not hurt you.... especially when your bones start getting old. LOL I had this one black belt throw me and it just felt magical. He was a black belt in both judo and brazillian jujitsu and I landed like a feather. You can learn a lot by losing.

 

EDIT: Its also magical how fast egos disappear when you take it to the mats all the time. A lot of taijiquan guys dont know how bad they are and think that practicing the form is just going to magically make them a killing machine... and they act like it.

[Spirit Ape]

I teach internal kung fu and i also compete in Judo, BJJ and it all works the same the downfall about me training in grappling classes its hard not to hit cause you are used to striking more then grappling in most Kung Fu. But Judo is great fun and let me say ANYONE can be taken down, the best stand up can be takendown fast and submitted very fast.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTi_E78DSK4...feature=related

[Taiji Bum]

and let me say ANYONE can be taken down,

Too true.....

[Spectrum]

As long as your finding and creating new option s then the horizon of possibility does not get limited to the texture or personalities of style. In growing my own game I've focused on fluidity based on dynamic compression/tension of moving framwork that I use to navigate the high and low points of the body with basic triangulation. I think this is why "shrimping" on the ground works. But also the successful dynamic of a "technical stand", also the "X pattern" in guard and from say a tabletop to turtle position. The body is a folding rotating spinning network of fleshly oragami. This basic x pattern thingy combined with the hips ability to figure 8 like a universal joint... opens up so many core movement variations that it's like learning how to surf with your dan tien. I love this. I used to use a fitness ball to try and reproduce some of the movement dynamics your'll find here. You can fly around people if they don't use their hands right, and if they do the moment they lose grip there is an opening in the frame you can "feel" through. I digress. I have also studied the 108 and found universal movement principles present in the classical arts. practice makes perfect no one can take a few moments or a few hours of dedicated training with others. hesitate if one underestimates or undervalues the power of two person drills and face to face accountability.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

Before I left the pdx area for big island i met a female mma fighter we'll call C from seattle area who wanted to roll around at third eye the day I was focusing on the Islands and buying my one way ticket.

 

I had not spent time grappling (on the mat) for approx a month, as at the time I was working in the rock club I was focusing on staying rooted and grounded, finding ways to continue "walking" people through "doors" by redirection technique and setup ie avoiding striking people while using the environment like other people, doorjams, walls, corners, etc to navigate and continue moving people who see themselves as resisting their escort(s).

 

An interesting connection here is C was old roommates with K on Oahu whom I trained a day with at Grappling Unlimited between sessions of getting my ass handed to me by Barret. This was 2001 I think. Anyways, I bought a one way ticket this time so it was a fun circle to complete, with a new connection of C, who is as hot as she is well trained!

 

My point to the story is that I had been focusing on the fundamental differences between wudang and other forums of taiji for the months prior. Fan, whip chain, horse whisk, line drilling 108 principles, snake, crane, etc. Exercises to feel the generative wave and release at the end of any line created through compression/tension.

 

So that day we rolled I was dreaming in wudang and I feel some of those smaller yet substantive spiral movements came to the surface in the form of transiions and textures. In particular that day snake.

 

We had a good session, keepin' things simple, Me Amigo captured some film.

[Starjumper]

QUOTE(Starjumper7 @ Jan 10 2009, 01:09 AM) *

 

I met an out of town BJJ master who was visiting my applications class to take some lessons, which teaches the combat applications of tai chi. I said I had been having a debate about the idea that a good tai chi player would be able to slip out of any take down attempt and asked him what he thought. He said it didn't matter because tai chi methods work just as well on the floor as they do standing up.

 

However, any good tai chi person would be able to skip out of any take down attempt, and kill the attacker while they are at it too.

 

Why didn't you just let him try and take you down? Experience is king! I've done this with tons of judo guys and its only the BIG black belts who can take me down. I know you have only been at taijiquan a few years but still it is an awesome experience to get "taken down" by a professional who is good enough to not hurt you.... especially when your bones start getting old. LOL I had this one black belt throw me and it just felt magical. He was a black belt in both judo and brazillian jujitsu and I landed like a feather. You can learn a lot by losing.

 

EDIT: Its also magical how fast egos disappear when you take it to the mats all the time. A lot of taijiquan guys dont know how bad they are and think that practicing the form is just going to magically make them a killing machine... and they act like it.

 

Hi Darin, I agree with most of that except for a few things, and I'll have to act ego about those. When I said 'good' tai chi person I meant master level, I wasn't referring to myself. As far as the tai chi forms are concerned you are correct pretty much except that I've been practicing the forms for two decades instead of two years. I've impressed a tai chi grand master with my Yang form. My Chen teacher, an 'official national living treasure of China', who would stare at you from two feet away while you did a move and correct the most infinitesimally small mistake, got so she couldn't correct me after I was with her for ten months while she still corrected everyone else, and most of them had been there a lot longer.

 

BUT

 

In the final analysis the form, even though it teaches you how to move with power (if you learn it from the right person, and most don't), is really just like a kind of dance.

 

For some reason you think I only learned the forms, why is that?

 

I also learned extensive yielding exercises and no one can apply more than four ounces of pressure to me EVER, unless they move really fast. I had a master try to shove me by surprise (if anyone can piss off a master it's me) and I just casually yielded as I walked by holding two glasses of pop. I didn't spill my drinks on him nor did I miss a step, I just easily yielded when the pressure got to four ounces and kept right on walking by, and he lost face even more, poor old feller. I can't yield fast enough to dodge a lightning fast punch, but there is no way in hell that some lumbering lumox who is trying to tackle me can get a hold of me OR, if I let him touch me it will be because I just exploded one of his kidneys or vertebrea as he comes in low. Remember the post I wrote, where I did a one inch punch against the door jamb of a big old three story wood school building and the building resounded with a boom?

 

I'm guessing that the BJJ guy who threw you did so when you tried to punch him, is that correct?

 

For some reason you think I haven't been taken down, why is that?

 

I didn't just learn the form, I've learned internal art combat methods from someone who was Bruce lee's equal and his buddy, but who then far surpassed what Bruce could do. Now I'm learning from that guy's senior student.

 

I've been taken down a lot but it's always when I try to punch someone, which is the way it's supposed to work in tai chi, but if you know how tai chi works you will know that there are ways to not allow another to apply force, and that's a FACT. I'm not saying I'm there, but a couple of my teachers are.

 

So that's what happens when you think I've only been doing tai chi for a few years, lots of bragging Just keep in mind, if you want to know what is possible in the arts, I may have seen it =)

Edited January 12, 2009 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

Edited January 13, 2009 by Starjumper7

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Starjumper,

 

You have any clips of your teachers?

 

Thanks

Ape

[Spectrum]

Me Amigo captured some film. The day before I departed for taobumness.

 

Relaxed playing the Dog Way. Easy Kine. I am mainly focusing on maintaining the postural elements of the "ball", I experimented with this alot in free form on the fitness ball, it has been a main theme in taichichuan.

 

eJuHo22VLiY

Edited January 13, 2009 by Spectrum