How humans are not physically created to eat meat

[Taomeow]

^ Lol, I took a pinch the other day, obviously can't tell much effects from that small quantity either way, though...

 

Here's some interesting info on boron, though. Apparently it may help boost testosterone, fight arthritis and strengthens bones. But, 1-10mg is considered safe...while 50mg or more may start showing some toxicity.To get 10 mg then, you'd have to eat 15 oz of raisins or prunes. Although, some say 3mg/day is plenty and 10mg is excessive.Anyhow, for supplementation, Sooo, I'm guessing the safest way would be to eat sufficient dietary sources of boron.

Next might be to supplement with maybe 3mg/day on a periodic flush cycle.

Next would be to supplement with more continually.

 

Borax may not really be that dangerous in small doses, but to err on the side of caution, I think I'd rather just take a safer form instead.

Guys, please do not ingest boric acid. It was used as a folk cockroach killer where I come from -- successfully. Better than any pesticide. It was mixed into a raw egg and the critters were offered a meal of it, ate it, and then whoever survived told everybody else to stop eating in this house if you care for your health and life itself, and off they went. Keep in mind that it's much harder to kill a cockroach with food than a human.

 

It was also used as a topical disinfectant but a study showed it easily penetrates through the skin and accumulates in the body (much like fluoride you're trying to counteract) and the toxic effects are cumulative.

[gendao]

Guys, please do not ingest boric acid. It was used as a folk cockroach killer where I come from -- successfully. Better than any pesticide. It was mixed into a raw egg and the critters were offered a meal of it, ate it, and then whoever survived told everybody else to stop eating in this house if you care for your health and life itself, and off they went. Keep in mind that it's much harder to kill a cockroach with food than a human.

 

It was also used as a topical disinfectant but a study showed it easily penetrates through the skin and accumulates in the body (much like fluoride you're trying to counteract) and the toxic effects are cumulative.

For the last 200 years, boric acid has often been used as a food preservative but this use has been recently stopped because it tended to disguise food that was unfit for consumption. People most likely ingested considerable quantities without any ill effect during this period. It has been widely used as a simple home remedy for stings and burns, and as a powder to prevent rash.

 

Boric acid and borax in a 2-3% solution will prevent the growth of most bacteria and will kill many fungi. These substances are readily absorbed by damaged skin and by mucous membranes. 50% of borate is eliminated via the kidneys in the first 12 hours, and 90% of the remainder is gone within a week, in all but extreme doses.

 

In many countries, a boron supplement is being used as a food supplement, and no claims are made, but satisfied users soon tell other people who need it. Over 250,000 people have used a particular supplement with the claim that it corrects between 80 and 90% of all arthritis.

 

The prevalence of arthritis seems to follow inversely the availability of boron in the soil.

epidemiologic evidence that in areas of the world where boron intakes usually are 1.0 mg or less/day the estimated incidence of arthritis ranges from 20 to 70%, whereas, in areas of the world where boron intakes are usually 3 to 10 mg, the estimated incidence of arthritis ranges from 0 to 10%

From what I've read though, it doesn't bioaccumulate and excess gets excreted rapidly:

The results of the trial showed that boron can reduce excretion of calcium by 44%, and activate estrogen and vitamin D.

 

Once intake of boron has ceased though, a rapid drop in bone boron levels is seen with any excess boron being quickly excreted from the body in urine, faeces, bile and sweat. As extra boron is not stored in the body, a regular of intake of the mineral is therefore required for optimal health.

So, I think it is beneficial in safe forms (dietary or safe supplements, but not boric acid or perhaps borax) and in safe dosages (let's say at least 1mg/day up to 10mg/day - so maybe 3mg is a good amount).

 

I think I may try a cheap $3.57 bottle just to give it a run.

Edited January 23, 2009 by vortex

[Yoda]

Where was Taomeow 2 hours ago???

 

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I've got quite the headache!!

 

But if I can score a few o at a d's then it'll all be worth it!

[mantis]

man, this is tempting. i have read people using it with no ill effects but then some people say it's toxic and somewhere else it says 50% is gone in the first 12 hours.

 

decisions, decisions

 

[gendao]

man, this is tempting. i have read people using it with no ill effects but then some people say it's toxic and somewhere else it says 50% is gone in the first 12 hours.

 

decisions, decisions

 

Actually, I think the potential toxic effects are more for over 10mg/day of boric acid or borax.

 

But if you stick with <10mg/day of dietary or intended supplemental forms of boron, you should be able to derive health benefits and not risks...

 

Well, I've got a $5 coupon at Vitamin Shoppe so may pick up one of these:

Vitamin Shoppe Boron 100 tabs

TwinLab Tri-Boron 100 caps

 

Unless I can find a good safety report on small doses of borax, why risk it when safer forms are still plenty cheap?

Edited January 23, 2009 by vortex

[Anabhogya-Carya]

It is not merely a claim -It is a fact. And convenience has nothing to do with my beliefs. If they are not your beliefs it does not disturb me in the least.

 

I have compassion for the beasts I eat and the homeless I try to house and the hungry I try to feed -in my work as the founder of two not for profit organizations. If I were to insist that the people I try to help get food -only eat vegetables -they would dislike it. As I stated I have been a vegetarian for several reasons. I am not a vegitarian now because I have worked thru my emotional responses to life and and am now more mature in my thinking.

 

Yr lack of compassion for meat eaters is just astounding to me! Yr value judgements are absurd. Life is far too complex to put your values above other's values. Compassion for animals is a great good, but it is not the only tool in the box.

 

And when it come to the food chain- intelligence is what brought us to the top. We are built to be omnivores not vegetarians that is obvious not convenient.

 

That your moral center is reliant on not eating meat is merely a state of mind being led by yr emotions, that you try to make it out to be some intellectual & compassionate triumph -just does not hold water. It is still just yr belief. It does not fit with my view of the cosmic order. I am willing to be food. Why aren't you?

 

You say it is a fact, and second it by saying it is a belief. These are very different things my friend. I never put my values above yours, personally I do not believe in an objective moral standard. Unlike your view of karma (which is a moral system) I don't hold certain things to be objectively right or wrong. But this does not work well in a pragmatic sense. I am merely addressing the mystical justification used for eating animals in this on-going topic, opposed to one based on compassion. Maturity does not bring specific moral conclusions.

 

Again, intelligence is not an unqualified superiority. Superiority is a social construct based of subjective values and factors (ex: my race is better than yours, my country is better than yours, my species is better than yours, etc.). And yes our bodies and nature are probably designed to eat both animals and plants, but in our modern age (and throughout most of history, but especially now) there are alternatives that are just as good as an omnivorus diet. Thus through our intelligence we can overcome our "natures". The naturalization argument is a rather weak one, especially on a spirituality and religion forum. Many things are claimed to be part of our nature, killing each other, polygamus relationships, spreading our seed, fighting over resources, the will to power, etc. But yet many of our systems focus on overcoming these things (Taoism, Buddhism, Democracy, Communism, etc). We are built to do lots of things, but many of them are restricted to achieve "higher" goals.

 

Of course a moral center is a state of mind. All ideaological and value systems are a state of mind based on perceptions. No cosmic order view holds water (in the most general sense) when you admit that this view is merely a state of mind. I respect your beliefs and meat eating is so prevelent I have little choice not to, and if I did I would anyways. I do not believe in forcing or dictating. But that does not mean that when you express your views on an open internet forum that they will not be challenged. There is no need to get angry.

 

I am fine with it being your belief, I have many friends that eat meat, my girlfriend eats meat, my entire family eats meat, obviously I don't have a "lack of compassion to meat eaters." It is not necessarily the eating of meat that bothers me, it is the life that meat animals live that bothers me.

 

As for being eaten, if I am eaten then I am eaten. Do I try and avoid being eaten? Of course. But I would object to raising humans for the sole purpose of being food just as I do animals. If a hunter in some village goes out and kills a deer to feed his family I do not care, this seems natural and necessarly in a society in which survial is based on such things. But when an industrial society commits the horrors that are carried out in mechanized factory farms and the wholesale breeding of animals, who lead miserable lives, for the satisfaction of its meat craving customers (and yes, as the article states, the obsession with meat has erupted in the last few centuries), this I have a problem with. I would not wish this life for any human, nor do I for any animal.

 

Thanks. And we can end this here since it has been established that we have our different beliefs or you can respond of course.

[Yoda]

So headache gone... I couldn't tell if it was a detox thing or I'm-a-dying-cockroach thing but it seems to have passed whatever it was. If I read the test results correctly, the ld50 of borax is much safer than the corresponding asprin score I took to deal with it, but it still may well qualify as a don't-try-this-at-home type of a thing...

[Lightbringer]

...personally I do not believe in an objective moral standard. Unlike your view of karma (which is a moral system) I don't hold certain things to be objectively right or wrong.

 

Just wanting to add that this common fallacy caught my eye. Karma is no more a moral system than the law of gravity. It designates not right and wrong but action that results in suffering and action that does not. There is no right or wrong as when someone experiences suffering, they are compelled to seek out the path that frees them from that suffering. It's the method by which we learn, and learning what doesn't work is no more "wrong" than learning what does. Not too much moral superiority to be had with such a system

 

Even the Tao (along with many other belief systems) speaks of the karmic nature of our existence and the transcendence of it.

[Ryan T.]

 

If a hunter in some village goes out and kills a deer to feed his family I do not care, this seems natural and necessarly in a society in which survial is based on such things. But when an industrial society commits the horrors that are carried out in mechanized factory farms and the wholesale breeding of animals, who lead miserable lives, for the satisfaction of its meat craving customers (and yes, as the article states, the obsession with meat has erupted in the last few centuries), this I have a problem with. I would not wish this life for any human, nor do I for any animal.

 

So aren't you kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water? It sounds to me as if you are against inhumane treatment of animals. If that is the case, then you could surely eat the myriad of organic, free-range, grass-fed, cruelty-free meats that have been made available more and more in recent years.

 

All of my studies seem to indicate that eating grains is far more unhealthy and unnatural for humans to consume.

 

And I still don't understand how you can talk about compassion for the animals with no real consideration for the plants. I pretty sure the only "karma-free" diet(Sorry, only word I thought appropriate) would be of fruit that dropped from a tree that you would only eat a portion of to still allow the seeds of the fruit enough nutrition and protection to potentially grow to its potential. The plants think. The plants feel. Where is your compassion for their suffering?

[Yoda]

It looks like borax goes by peng sha in tcm.

[mantis]

Actually, I think the potential toxic effects are more for over 10mg/day of boric acid or borax.

 

But if you stick with <10mg/day of dietary or intended supplemental forms of boron, you should be able to derive health benefits and not risks...

 

Well, I've got a $5 coupon at Vitamin Shoppe so may pick up one of these:

Vitamin Shoppe Boron 100 tabs

TwinLab Tri-Boron 100 caps

 

Unless I can find a good safety report on small doses of borax, why risk it when safer forms are still plenty cheap?

 

makes sense, let us know how it goes i am VERY interested in de-fluoridation.

 

So headache gone... I couldn't tell if it was a detox thing or I'm-a-dying-cockroach thing but it seems to have passed whatever it was. If I read the test results correctly, the ld50 of borax is much safer than the corresponding asprin score I took to deal with it, but it still may well qualify as a don't-try-this-at-home type of a thing...

 

 

thanks for being the lab rat for a moment, here.

[Yoda]

no problem! Whether borax ends up being good or bad, I definitely took too much.

 

Read one guy who said that taking borax cured his arthritis, but it was just him licking his fingertip and sticking it in the borax box (he said that was his '30mg' dose).

 

I read about borax mining and per my reading, the only solvent they use is water to separate the borax from clay so that's good.

 

Will pick up some boron, though.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

The plants think. The plants feel. Where is your compassion for their suffering?

 

That is still debated. It is not as simple as you claim.

And I ask do you eat only things that fall from a tree? Put it on a scale, there are healthy altenatives to eating meat, the healthy alternatives to not eating plants are few and far between.

 

So aren't you kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water? It sounds to me as if you are against inhumane treatment of animals. If that is the case, then you could surely eat the myriad of organic, free-range, grass-fed, cruelty-free meats that have been made available more and more in recent years.

 

 

Again, since there are healthy alternatives why would I?

 

Just wanting to add that this common fallacy caught my eye. Karma is no more a moral system than the law of gravity. It designates not right and wrong but action that results in suffering and action that does not. There is no right or wrong as when someone experiences suffering, they are compelled to seek out the path that frees them from that suffering. It's the method by which we learn, and learning what doesn't work is no more "wrong" than learning what does. Not too much moral superiority to be had with such a system

 

Even the Tao (along with many other belief systems) speaks of the karmic nature of our existence and the transcendence of it.

 

Fair enough. But that does not mean it is not a social construct. ex: "Do this because it generates good karma, don't do this because it generates bad karma." ex2: "do this and you go to heaven, do this and you go to hell." (the other traditions). I agree that suffering is not a matter of right or wrong, and neither is the transcendance of it. But that does not mean that "karma" is in fact a universal law. It may be, but it is not necessarily.

[WestwardMonkey]

Going back on what I said earlier I guess you can be more compassionate to plant life by only eating fruits and seeds instead of the plant itself but then do you get all your nutrients? Should we fear every step we take not to step on an ant or something smaller we can not see? Now I am not saying that I am just going to go around stepping on ants deliberately. In the end when we die are bodies break down in to the soil it can be eaten by plants or animal same with all living thing. Heck if you look at it deeper even when you eat an apple it probably can be traced back as an act of canibalism. All the energy of the universe is constantly flowing here flowing there circulating in a great Tia Chi every living thing having its seasons everything connected as one and if we are all connected as one who are we eating? I lost my train of thought what were we talking about?

[Taiji Bum]

This thread is like sitting at a table where three different converstations are going on!

[Unconditioned]

This thread is like sitting at a table where three different converstations are going on!

 

Can someone pass me the butter? Wait is that good or bad Karma? Or is it not even ok to use a by product of an animal? *head explodes*

 

Really though, at the end of the day if you live by your belief and it presents no conflict for you, I say go for it. Unless you like to eat white-guys from the north east

 

In short, we should all lighten up a bit

[Wayfarer64]

I am glad that the basic premise of humans being evolved as non-meat-eaters has been debunked and thus resolved. It is just that sort of pseudo-science that got me started... As long as we can agree that eating meat is as natural as any other activity, there is no arguement.

 

Eating meat in most of the world is a great treat and not something to be ascewed... But here in the USA we are ( in many cases) more concerned with dieting than finding enough to eat!

 

What we discussed is a matter of choice and morality much as abortions are. I will grant that any taking of any life is a negative part of our experience, -it is the reasons and the seriousness of how we go about the harder choices that dictate our morality.

 

The hardest thing I ever had to do on an emotional level was ok the vet to put my dog down when he was 16 years old and suddenly in pretty poor shape. It was the right thing to do. I have paid for two abortions -niether one was from my seed, that too was a difficult call to make. But again the best thing to do under the circumstances...

 

Life often offers us dire choices. The cycle ( as others here have aptly stated) makes us each a part of all others, molecularly speaking at least...

 

The desire to be good and kind is a wonderful mind-set, but it is not morality in the strictist sense, it is just how we behave. One can kill and remain moraly uncorrupted in some cases. Life goes on...

 

 

as for the borax thing - YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTIN ME??!! I USE BORAX AS INSECTICIDE AND WOULD NEVER INGEST THAT SHIT!!!!! YIKES???!!!

That reminds me of when I used bleach to rinse my mouth out after an accident with manure... A long story that will be funny one day I'm sure...

 

PS the frown on my previous post regarding compassion was meant as a joke-so we can lighten up some here ...

 

 

love to all- Pat

[thelerner]

A person far wiser then me explained their vegetarianism this way. If you don't have to hurt things then don't.

 

Thats why they were veggie. They didn't need to kill animals to live, so they didn't. I have great respect to that argument and can find no flaw in it. It rings simple and true to me.

 

Course I'm a weak willed culturally conditioned insipid individual who eats meat cause its cheap, plentiful and fulfills carnal transient desires. Probably at the expense of my future health and spiritual level.

 

 

Michael

member of WWCCII since '64

[seadog]

Killing an animal is a real hard thing to do. Skinning it, takeing out its bowels,takeing out the various organs still warm with blood in your bare hands is a hard task. Makeing an effort not to be wasteful or disrespectful is a real challenge.

I really think that if people had to kill and slaughter their own meat,the world would have a lot more vegeterians.

[mantis]

Killing an animal is a real hard thing to do. Skinning it, takeing out its bowels,takeing out the various organs still warm with blood in your bare hands is a hard task. Makeing an effort not to be wasteful or disrespectful is a real challenge.

I really think that if people had to kill and slaughter their own meat,the world would have a lot more vegeterians.

 

do you really think so? people back then raised the animals and THEN killed them, yet they still did it because they recognized meat is essential.

[Wayfarer64]

Sure -As I wrote - raising 3 pigs: "Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner" for future slaughter is what allowed me to eventually remove my emotions from the equation. Having hunted and fished before that- was the precurser to that evolution. I feel a pang of loss when killing, and am moved to show my respect for all I eat because of those experiences.

 

We have moved away from the Earth on so many levels as a society. Our heads are in the air about many issues. Taking emotional responsibility for all of our actions is an important part of re-claiming ourselves away from the super-structure of society. Doing what is natural for us - not what is expected by our myth-laden lore & social imperitives.

 

We need protiens to thrive. Taking the time to respect what we eat is part of respecting who we are.

[voidisyinyang]

Boron pills are 3 mg while the scientific toxic limit is 18 mg a day -- with the nutritionist stating that 100 mg is the toxic limit:

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...4868feae154c080

[Jedi777]

LOL wow some funny stuff here--

[Gerard]

The Buddha died at the age of 80 after he ate a special delicacy, Sukaramaddava, literally translated as "soft pork". LOL!

 

It is not what you eat (as long as it is not a junk processed food typical of the modern society we all live in) but how you train your mind what it really matters.

 

I eat meat sometimes and love it.

[voidisyinyang]

Well then there's the "laughing budda" which as Master Ni, Huai-chi points out is just FOLK religion -- the big, fat buddha. Seriously if you sit in full-lotus all the time then any diet impurities are leached through the brain and gums. I just read a book on ayahuasca in S. America and strictly there's a training of no meat, no salt and no sugar - (including fruit in the jungle!) for several months. It's just like yoga training. STRICT. I haven't followed this which is why I smell like shit! haha. Tea tree oil, garlic, peppermint spirits, cilantro -- poor cover-ups for a meat-sugar diet. haha.