How humans are not physically created to eat meat

[mantis]

Humans are not physically created to kill either, and look at us.

"from Smile"

I am still waiting for a reply, please explain....

 

Thanks

 

what needs clarifying?

[h.uriahr]

Humans are not physically created to kill either, and look at us.

"from Smile"

I am still waiting for a reply, please explain....

 

Thanks

 

 

That is opinion based.

[Jedi777]

More food for thought

 

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured by the way in which its animals are treated.

Mahatma Gandhi

 

As long as human society continues to allow cows to be regularly killed in slaughterhouses, there cannot be any question of peace and prosperity.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Refrain from killing knowingly even the trifling insects like a louse, a bug or a mosquito. Use no violence even to gain possession of a woman, wealth or kingdom. Never kill any animals even for the purpose of sacrifice. Non-violence is the greatest of all religions.

Swami Sahajanand, Divine Life Society

 

O lover of meditation, become pure and clean. Observe nonviolence in mind, speech and body. Never break another's heart. Avoid wounding another's feelings. Harm no one. Help all. Neither be afraid nor frighten others.

Swami Muktananda

 

Someone who believes in violence and continues causing injury to others can never be peaceful himself.

Swami Satchidananda

 

To be free from violence is the duty of every man. No thought of revenge, hatred or ill will should arise in our minds. Injuring others gives rise to hatred.

Swami Sivananda

 

By ahimsa, Patanjali meant the removal of the desire to kill. All forms of life have an equal right to the air of maya. The saint who uncovers the secret of creation will be in harmony with Nature's countless bewildering expressions. All men may understand this truth by overcoming the passion for destruction.

Sri Yukteswar to Paramahansa Yogananda

 

If you plant eggplant, you can pluck eggplants. If you sow goodness, you can reap goodness. If you sow evil, you will reap evil. Do good to all. God is there, within you. Don't kill. Don't harbor anger.

Sage Yogaswami

 

We are all of the same race and religion. We are holy beings established in Divinity itself. This truth can be understood only by those who have grasped it through the magical charm of a life of dharma-not by other means. Because of that, sages have emphatically proclaimed again and again that it is necessary to love all existing lives as one's own.

Sage Yogaswami

 

The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all.

Swami Vivekananda

 

Strictly speaking, no activity and no industry is possible without a certain amount of violence, no matter how little. Even the very process of living is impossible without a certain amount of violence. What we have to do is to minimize it to the greatest extent possible.

Mahatma Gandhi, My Socialism, 34-35.

 

You do not like to suffer yourself. How can you inflict suffering on others? Every killing is a suicide. The eternal, blissful and natural state has been smothered by this life of ignorance. In this way the present life is due to the killing of the eternal, pristine Being. Is it not a case of suicide?

Ramana Maharshi, June 1935

 

The mansahari, "meat-eater," is poignantly described in the following passage from the obscure Mansahara Parihasajalpita Stotram:

 

"Those who eat the flesh of other creatures are nothing less than gristle-grinders, blood-drinkers, muscle-munchers, sinew-chewers, carcass-crunchers, flesh-feeders-those who make their throat a garbage pit and their stomach a graveyard-mean, angry, loathsomely jealous, confused and beset by covetousness, who without restraint would lie, deceive, kill or steal to solve immediate problems. They are flesh-feeders, loathsome to the Gods, but friendly to the asuras, who become their Gods and Goddesses, the blood-sucking monsters who inhabit Naraka and deceptively have it decorated to look like the pitriloka, the world of the fathers. To such beings the deluded meat-eaters pay homage and prostrate while munching the succulent flesh off bones."

 

. Must We Kill in order to Live?

 

Vegetarianism, known in Sanskrit as Shakahara, was for thousands of years a principle of health and environmental ethics throughout India. Though Muslim and Christian colonization radically undermined and eroded this ideal, it remains to this day a cardinal ethic of Hindu thought and practice. A subtle sense of guilt persists among Hindus who eat meat, and there exists an ongoing controversy on this issue on which we hope this humble booklet will shed some light.

 

For India's ancient thinkers, life is seen as the very stuff of the Divine, an emanation of the Source and part of a cosmic continuum. They further hold that each life form, even water and trees, possesses consciousness and energy. Nonviolence, ahimsa, the primary basis of vegetarianism, has long been central to the religious traditions of India-especially Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Religion in India has consistently upheld the sanctity of life, whether human, animal or, in the case of the Jains, elemental.

 

The Sanskrit for vegetarianism is Shakahara, and one following a vegetarian diet is a shakahari. The term for meat-eating is mansahara, and the meat-eater is called mansahari. Ahara means "to consume, or eat," shaka means "vegetable," and mansa means "meat or flesh." The very word mansa, "meat," conveys a deep appreciation of life's sacredness and an understanding of the law of karma by which the consequence of each action returns to the doer. As explained in the 2,000-year-old Manu Dharma Shastra, 5.55, "The learned declare that the meaning of mansa (flesh) is, 'he (sa) will eat me (mam) in the other world whose flesh I eat here.' "

 

There developed early in India an unparalleled concern for harmony among life forms, and this led to a common ethos based on noninjuriousness and a minimal consumption of natural resources-in other words, to compassion and simplicity. If homo sapiens is to survive his present predicament, he will have to rediscover these two primary ethical virtues.

 

"Is vegetarianism integral to noninjury?" In my book, Dancing with Siva, this question is addressed as follows: "Hindus teach vegetarianism as a way to live with a minimum of hurt to other beings, for to consume meat, fish, fowl or eggs is to participate indirectly in acts of cruelty and violence against the animal kingdom. The abhorrence of injury and killing of any kind leads quite naturally to a vegetarian diet, shakahara. The meat-eater's desire for meat drives another to kill and provide that meat. The act of the butcher begins with the desire of the consumer. Meat-eating contributes to a mentality of violence, for with the chemically complex meat ingested, one absorbs the slaughtered creature's fear, pain and terror. These qualities are nourished within the meat-eater, perpetuating the cycle of cruelty and confusion. When the individual's consciousness lifts and expands, he will abhor violence and not be able to even digest the meat, fish, fowl and eggs he was formerly consuming. India's greatest saints have confirmed that one cannot eat meat and live a peaceful, harmonious life. Man's appetite for meat inflicts devastating harm on the earth itself, stripping its precious forests to make way for pastures. The Tirukural candidly states, 'How can he practice true compassion who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh? Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires is not to sacrifice and consume any living creature.' "

 

Amazingly, I have heard people define vegetarian as a diet which excludes the meat of animals but does permit fish and eggs. But what really is vegetarianism? Vegetarian foods include grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes and dairy products. Natural, fresh foods, locally grown without insecticides or chemical fertilizers are preferred. A vegetarian diet does not include meat, fish, fowl or eggs. For good health, even certain vegetarian foods are minimized: frozen and canned foods, highly processed foods, such as white rice, white sugar and white flour; and "junk" foods and beverages-those with abundant chemical additives, such as artificial sweeteners, colorings, flavorings and preservatives.

 

In my forty years of ministry it has become quite evident that vegetarian families have far fewer problems than those who are not vegetarian. If children are raised as vegetarians, every day they are exposed to nonviolence as a principle of peace and compassion. Every day they are growing up they are remembering and being reminded to not kill. They won't even kill another creature to eat, to feed themselves. And if they won't kill another creature to feed themselves, they will be much less likely to do acts of violence against people.

 

　

 

II. Five Reasons to Be a Vegetarian

 

In the past fifty years millions of meat-eaters have made the personal decision to stop eating the flesh of other creatures. There are five major motivations for such a decision.

 

1) The Dharmic/Scriptural Law reason

 

Ahimsa, the law of noninjury, is the Hindu's first duty in fulfillment of his religious obligations to God and God's creation as defined by Vedic scripture.

 

2) The Karmic Consequences reason

 

All of our actions including our choice of food have karmic consequences. By involving oneself in the cycle of inflicting injury, pain and death, even indirectly by eating other creatures, one must in the future experience in equal measure the suffering caused.

 

3) The Spiritual Consciousness reason

 

Food is the source of the body's chemistry, and what we ingest affects our consciousness, emotions and experiential patterns. If one wants to live in higher consciousness, in peace and happiness and love for all creatures, then he cannot eat meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs. By ingesting the grosser chemistries of animal foods, one introduces into the body and mind anger, jealousy, fear, anxiety, suspicion and a terrible fear of death, all of which are locked into the flesh of butchered creatures. For these reasons, shakaharis live in higher consciousness and mansaharis abide in lower consciousness.

 

4) The Health reason

 

Medical studies prove that a vegetarian diet is easier to digest, provides a wider range of nutrients and imposes fewer burdens and impurities on the body. Vegetarians are less susceptible to all the major diseases that afflict contemporary humanity, and thus live longer, healthier, more productive lives. They have fewer physical complaints, less frequent visits to the doctor, fewer dental problems and smaller medical bills. Their immune system is stronger, their bodies are purer, more refined and skin more beautiful.

 

5) The Ecological reason

 

Planet earth is suffering. In large measure, the escalating loss of species, destruction of ancient rainforests to create pasture lands for livestock, loss of topsoils and the consequent increase of water impurities and air pollution have all been traced to the single fact of meat in the human diet. No single decision that we can make as individuals or as a race can have such a dramatic effect on the improvement of our planetary ecology as the decision to not eat meat. Many seeking to save the planet for future generations have made this decision for this reason and this reason alone.

 

　

 

III. How to Win an Argument with a Meat-Eater

 

While their numbers are rapidly growing, vegetarians are still a minority, and it is not unusual to be confronted with a meat-eater who not only protects his own right to eat flesh, but argues aggressively that vegetarians should join him in his carnivorous diet. Carnivores may regard nonmeat-eaters as a strange lot who munch on "rabbit food," and whose diet doesn't have the substance to make them strong, productive human beings. The following presentation is designed to turn the tables on such discussions by showing the devastating effects of meat-eating both on individuals and on our planet. It is based on a richly informative poster entitled, "How to win an argument with a meat-eater," published by Earthsave, an organization based in Felton, California, giving facts from Pulitzer Prize nominee John Robbins' book Diet for a New America. Below are eight separate arguments against meat-eating and in favor of a vegetarian diet.

 

1. The Hunger Argument against meat-eating

 

Much of the world's massive hunger problems could be solved by the reduction or elimination of meat-eating. The reasons: 1) livestock pasture needs cut drastically into land which could otherwise be used to grow food; 2) vast quantities of food which could feed humans is fed to livestock raised to produce meat.

 

This year alone, twenty million people worldwide will die as a result of malnutrition. One child dies of malnutrition every 2.3 seconds. One hundred million people could be adequately fed using the land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by a mere 10%.

 

Twenty percent of the corn grown in the U.S. is eaten by people. Eighty percent of the corn and 95% of the oats grown in the U.S. is eaten by livestock. The percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock is calculated by experts as 90%.

 

One acre of land can produce 40,000 pounds of potatoes, or 250 pounds of beef. Fifty-six percent of all U.S. farmland is devoted to beef production, and to produce each pound of beef requires 16 pounds of edible grain and soybeans, which could be used to feed the hungry.

 

2. The Environmental Argument against meat-eating

 

Many of the world's massive environmental problems could be solved by the reduction or elimination of meat-eating, including global warming, loss of topsoil, loss of rainforests and species extinction.

 

The temperature of the earth is rising. This global warming, known as "the greenhouse effect," results primarily from carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels, such as oil and natural gas. Three times more fossil fuels must be burned to produce a meat-centered diet than for a meat-free diet. If people stopped eating meat, the threat of higher world temperatures would be vastly diminished.

 

Trees, and especially the old-growth forests, are essential to the survival of the planet. Their destruction is a major cause of global warming and top soil loss. Both of these effects lead to diminished food production. Meat-eating is the number one driving force for the destruction of these forests. Two-hundred and sixty million acres of U.S. forestland has been cleared for cropland to produce the meat-centered diet. Fifty-five square feet of tropical rainforest is consumed to produce every quarter-pound of rainforest beef. An alarming 75% of all U.S. topsoil has been lost to date. Eighty-five percent of this loss is directly related to livestock raising.

 

Another devastating result of deforestation is the loss of plant and animal species. Each year 1,000 species are eliminated due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses. The rate is growing yearly.

 

To keep up with U.S. consumption, 300 million pounds of meat are imported annually from Central and South America. This economic incentive impels these nations to cut down their forests to make more pastureland. The short-term gain ignores the long-term, irreparable harm to the earth's ecosystem. In effect these countries are being drained of their resources to put meat on the table of Americans while 75% of all Central American children under the age of five are undernourished.

 

3. The Cancer Argument against meat-eating

 

Those who eat flesh are far more likely to contract cancer than those following a vegetarian diet.

 

The risk of contracting breast cancer is 3.8 times greater for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week; 2.8 times greater for women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week; and 3.25 greater for women who eat butter and cheese 2 to 4 times a week as compared to once a week.

 

The risk of fatal ovarian cancer is three times greater for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week as compared with less than once a week.

 

The risk of fatal prostate cancer is 3.6 times greater for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily as compared with sparingly or not at all.

 

4. The Cholesterol Argument against meat-eating

 

Here are facts showing that: 1) U.S. physicians are not sufficiently trained in the importance of the relation of diet to health; 2) meat-eaters ingest excessive amounts of cholesterol, making them dangerously susceptible to heart attacks.

 

It is strange, but true that U.S. physicians are as a rule ill-educated in the single most important factor of health, namely diet and nutrition. Of the 125 medical schools in the U.S., only 30 require their students to take a course in nutrition. The average nutrition training received by the average U.S. physician during four years in school is only 2.5 hours. Thus doctors in the U.S. are ill-equipped to advise their patients in minimizing foods, such as meat, that contain excessive amounts of cholesterol and are known causes of heart attack.

 

Heart attack is the most common cause of death in the U.S., killing one person every 45 seconds. The male meat-eater's risk of death from heart attack is 50%. The risk to men who eats no meat is 15%. Reducing one's consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10% reduces the risk of heart attack by 10%. Completely eliminating these products from one's diet reduces the risk of heart attack by 90%.

 

The average cholesterol consumption of a meat-centered diet is 210 milligrams per day. The chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol is 210 milligrams daily is greater than 50%.

 

5. The Natural Resources Argument against meat-eating

 

The world's natural resources are being rapidly depleted as a result of meat-eating.

 

Raising livestock for their meat is a very inefficient way of generating food. Pound for pound, far more resources must be expended to produce meat than to produce grains, fruits and vegetables. For example, more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S. is consumed in livestock production. The amount of water used in production of the average cow is sufficient to float a destroyer (a large naval ship). While 25 gallons of water are needed to produce a pound of wheat, 5,000 gallons are needed to produce a pound of California beef. That same 5,000 gallons of water can produce 200 pounds of wheat. If this water cost were not subsidized by the government, the cheapest hamburger meat would cost more than $35 per pound.

 

Meat-eating is devouring oil reserves at an alarming rate. It takes nearly 78 calories of fossil fuel (oil, natural gas, etc.) energy to produce one calory of beef protein and only 2 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce one calory of soybean. If every human ate a meat-centered diet, the world's known oil reserves would last a mere 13 years. They would last 260 years if humans stopped eating meat altogether. That is 20 times longer, giving humanity ample time to develop alternative energy sources.

 

Thirty-three percent of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by the U.S. are devoted to the production of livestock, as compared with 2% to produce a complete vegetarian diet.

 

6. The Antibiotic Argument against meat-eating

 

Here are facts showing the dangers of eating meat because of the large amounts of antibiotics fed to livestock to control staphylococci (commonly called staph infections), which are becoming immune to these drugs at an alarming rate.

 

The animals that are being raised for meat in the United States are diseased. The livestock industry attempts to control this disease by feeding the animals antibiotics. Huge quantities of drugs go for this purpose. Of all antibiotics used in the U.S., 55% are fed to livestock.

 

But this is only partially effective because the bacteria that cause disease are becoming immune to the antibiotics. The percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin, for example, has grown from 13% in 1960 to 91% in 1988. These antibiotics and-or the bacteria they are intended to destroy reside in the meat that goes to market.

 

It is not healthy for humans to consume this meat. The response of the European Economic Community to the routine feeding of antibiotics to U.S. livestock was to ban the importation of U.S. meat. European buyers do not want to expose consumers to this serious health hazard. By comparison, U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries gave their full and complete support to the routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock, turning a blind eye to the threat of disease to the consumer.

 

7. The Pesticide Argument against meat-eating

 

Unknown to most meat-eaters, U.S.-produced meat contains dangerously high quantities of deadly pesticides.

 

The common belief is that the U.S. Department of Agriculture protects consumers' health through regular and thorough meat inspection. In reality, fewer than one out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues.

 

That these chemicals are indeed ingested by the meat-eater is proven by the following facts:

 

Ninety-nine percent of U.S. mother's milk contains significant levels of DDT. In stark contrast, only 8% of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT. This shows that the primary source of DDT is the meat ingested by the mothers.

 

Contamination of breast milk due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products found in meat-eating mothers versus nonmeat-eating mothers is 35 times higher.

 

The amount of the pesticide Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant is 9 times the permissible level.

 

8. The Ethical Argument against meat-eating

 

Many of those who have adopted a vegetarian diet have done so because of the ethical argument, either from reading about or personally experiencing what goes on daily at any one of the thousands of slaughterhouses in the U.S. and other countries, where animals suffer the cruel process of forced confinement, manipulation and violent death. Their pain and terror is beyond calculation.

 

The slaughterhouse is the final stop for animals raised for their flesh. These ghastly places, while little known to most meat-eaters, process enormous numbers of animals each years. In the U.S. alone, 660,000 animals are killed for meat every hour. A surprising quantity of meat is consumed by the meat-eater. The average percapita consumption of meat in the U.S., Canada and Australia is 200 pounds per year! The average American consumes in a 72-year lifetime approximately 11 cattle, 3 lambs and sheep, 23 hogs, 45 turkeys, 1,100 chickens and 862 pounds of fish! Bon appetite!

 

People who come in contact with slaughterhouses cannot help but be affected by what they see and hear. Those living nearby must daily experience the screams of terror and anger of the animals led to slaughter. Those working inside must also see and participate in the crimes of mayhem and murder. Most who choose this line of work are not on the job for long. Of all occupations in the U.S., slaughterhouse worker has the highest turnover rate. It also has the highest rate of on-the-job injury.

 

　

 

IV. Humans Have neither Fangs nor Claws

 

A ninth and most compelling argument against meat-eating is that humans are physiologically not suited for a carnivorous diet. The book Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism in the World Religions, summarizes this point of view as follows. "Many nutritionists, biologists and physiologists offer convincing evidence that humans are in fact not meant to eat flesh._" Here are seven facts in support of this view:

 

"Physiologically, people are more akin to plant-eaters, foragers and grazers, such as monkeys, elephants and cows, than to carnivora such as dogs, tigers and leopards."

 

"For example, carnivora do not sweat through their skin; body heat is controlled by rapid breathing and extrusion of the tongue. Vegetarian animals, on the other hand, have sweat pores for heat control and the elimination of impurities."

 

"Carnivora have long teeth and claws for holding and killing prey; vegetarian animals have short teeth and no claws."

 

"The saliva of carnivora contains no ptyalin and cannot predigest starches; that of vegetarian animals contains ptyalin for the predigestion of starches."

 

"Flesh-eating animals secrete large quantities of hydrochloric acid to help dissolve bones; vegetarian animals secrete little hydrochloric acid."

 

"The jaws of carnivora only open in an up and down motion; those of vegetarian animals also move sideways for additional kinds of chewing."

 

"Carnivora must lap liquids (like a cat); vegetarian animals take liquids in by suction through the teeth."

 

"There are many such comparisons, and in each case humans fit the vegetarian physiognomy. From a strictly physiological perspective, then, there are strong arguments that humans are not suited to a fleshy diet."

 

　

 

V. The Health Benefits of Vegetarianism

 

It was only recently that smoking only recently became recognized as a health and environmental hazard. As a result of research and education on a habit once believed to be not only harmless but stylish, most major U.S. cities have banned smoking of cigarettes, cigars or pipes in all public places. Smoking has also been outlawed in government offices and completely eliminated from all domestic U.S. air flights. Now, another, even more devastaing problem is under scrutiny. Its threat to health and the environment is being realized based on overwhelming evidence amassed by recognized authorities over the past fifty years. Recently a group of eminent doctors called the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), themselves members of the American Medical Association (AMA), have gathered to change the U.S. consciousness on human nutrition, particularly among the medical community. The PCRM is a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C., consisting of doctors and laypersons working together for compassionate and effective medical practice, research and health promotion. Founded in 1985, the PCRM is supported by over 3,000 physicians and 50,000 laypersons. PCRM president Newal D. Barnard, M.D., is a popular speaker and the author of The Power of Your Plate.

 

As stated by the PCRM in their 1991 literature, "A vegetarian diet has been advocated by everyone from philosophers, such as Plato and Nietzsche, to political leaders, such as Benjamin Franklin and Gandhi, to modern pop icons such as Paul McCartney and Bob Marley. Science is also on the side of vegetarian foods. A multitude of studies have proven the health benefits of a vegetarian diet to be remarkable.

 

"Vegetarian is defined as avoiding all animal flesh, including fish and poultry. Vegetarians who avoid flesh, but do eat animal products such as cheese, milk and eggs are ovo-lacto-vegetarians (ovo = egg; lacto = milk, cheese, etc.). The ranks of those who eschew all animal products are rapidly growing; these people are referred to as pure vegetarians or vegans (vee'guns). Scientific research shows that ovo-lacto-vegetarians are healthier than meat-eaters, and vegans are healthier than ovo-lacto-vegetarians." It should be noted that the Indian Hindu tradition has always been lacto-vegetarian, permitting the consumption of milk products.

 

The PCRM literature lists a host of health benefits of a vegetarian diet, including the following:

 

Preventing cancer: "Numerous epidemiological and clinical studies have shown that vegetarians are nearly 50% less likely to die from cancer than nonvegetarians."

 

Preventing heart disease and lowering blood pressure.

 

Preventing and reversing diabetes.

 

Preventing and alleviating gallstones, kidney stones and osteoporosis.

 

Preventing and alleviating asthma.

 

　

 

VI. The New Four Food Groups

 

In 1991 the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine submitted a proprosal to change the official "four food groups" which have been promoted by U.S. nutritionists in the U.S. for the past 35 years. Their proposal reflects the fact that the long-held belief in meat as an essential dietary element is being displaced with new findings on the harmful effects of a meat-centered diet. The PCRM Update, May-June 1991, explains, "On April 8, 1991, PCRM unveiled a proposal to replace the Four Basic Food Groups. The Four Food Groups have been part of U.S. government recommendations since 1956, but promote dietary habits which are largely responsible for the epidemics of heart disease, cancer, stroke and other serious illnesses in this country._The old four groups were meat, dairy, grains and fruits/vegetables. The 'New Four Food Groups' are grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits. Meat and dairy will lose their food group status [by this proposal]. The 'New Four Food Groups' represents a nutrition plan that is based on healthy, fiber-rich plant foods rather than the former emphasis on cholesterol-and-fat-laden foods. 'The meat and dairy groups were the principal sources of cholesterol and saturated fat, which is the biggest culprit in raising blood cholesterol,' says PCRM Nutritionist Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. 'These foods are simply not necessary in the human diet.' " PCRM poster offers the following description of the four new food groups.

 

Whole grains includes breads, pastas, rice, corn and all other grains. Note the emphasis on whole grains rather than refined grains. Build each of your meals around a hearty grain dish-grains are rich in fiber and other complex carbohydrates, as well as protein, B vitamins and zinc.

 

Vegetables are packed with nutrients; they provide vitamin C, beta-carotene, riboflavin and other vitamins, iron, calcium and fiber. Dark green, leafy vegetables such as broccoli, collards, kale, mustard and turnip greens, chicory or bok choy are especially good sources of these important nutrients. Dark yellow and orange vegetables such as carrots, winter squash, sweet potatoes and pumpkin provide extra beta-carotene. Include generous portions of a variety of vegetables in your diet.

 

Legumes, which is another name for beans, peas and lentils, are all good sources of fiber, protein, iron, calcium, zinc and B vitamins. This group also includes chickpeas, baked and refried beans, soy milk, tofu, tempeh and texturized vegetable protein.

 

Fruits are rich in fiber, vitamin C and beta-carotene. Be sure to include at least one serving each day of fruits that are high in vitamin C-citrus fruits, melons and strawberries are all good choices. Choose whole fruit over fruit juices, which don't contain as much healthy fiber.

 

　

 

VII. Common Dietary Concerns

 

Those considering a vegetarian diet generally worry about getting enough nutrients, since the belief that meat is a necessary part of keeping strong and healthy is still extremely widespread. Armed with decades of nutritional research data, the PCRM addresses this issue head-on:

 

"The fact is, it is very easy to have a well-balanced diet with vegetarian foods. Vegetarian foods provide plenty of protein. Careful combining of foods is not necessary. Any normal variety of plant foods provides more than enough protein for the body's needs. Although there is somewhat less protein in a vegetarian diet than a meat-eater's diet, this actually an advantage. Excess protein has been linked to kidney stones, osteoporosis, and possibly heart disease and some cancers. A diet focused on beans, whole grains and vegetables contains adequate amounts of protein without the 'overdose' most meat-eaters get."

 

Other concerns are allayed as follows:

 

"Calcium is easy to find in a vegetarian diet. Many dark, green leafy vegetables and beans are loaded with calcium, and some orange juices and cereals are calcium-fortified. Iron is plentiful in whole grains, beans and fruits."

 

Vitamin B12: There is a misconception that without eating meat one cannot obtain sufficient v. B12, which is an essential nutrient. This simply not true. The PCRM advises: "Although cases of B12 deficiency are very uncommon, it is important to make sure that one has a reliable source of the vitamin. Good sources include all common multiple vitamins (including vegetarian vitamins), fortified cereals and fortified soy milk."

 

"During pregnancy one's nutritional needs increase. The American Dietetic Association has found vegan diets adequate for fulfilling nutritional needs during pregnancy, but pregnant women and nursing mothers should supplement their diets with vitamins B12 and D."

 

"vegetarian children also have high nutritional needs, but these, too, are met within a vegetarian diet. A vegetarian menu is 'life-extending.' As young children, vegetarians may grow more gradually, reach puberty somewhat later, and live substantially longer than do meat-eaters. Do be sure to include a reliable source of vitamin B12."

 

Besides the fortified cereals and soymilk mentioned above vitamin B12 sources that are widely available are multiple vitamins, brewers yeast and other potent dietary supplements.

 

Those interested in supporting or learning more about the work of the PCRM should write to PCRM, P.O. Box 6322, Washington, D.C., 20015.

 

　

 

VIII. Vegetarianism in Hinduism

 

Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism and the World Religions, observes, "Despite popular knowledge of meat-eating's adverse effects, the nonvegetarian diet became increasingly widespread among Hindus after the two major invasions by foreign powers, first the Muslims and later the British. With them came the desire to be 'civilized,' to eat as did the saheeb. Those actually trained in Vedic knowledge, however, never adopted a meat-oriented diet, and the pious Hindu still observes vegetarian principles as a matter of religious duty.

 

"That vegetarianism has always been widespread in India is clear from the earliest Vedic texts. This was observed by the ancient traveler Megasthenes and also by Fa-hsien, a Chinese Buddhist monk who, in the fifth century, traveled to India in order to obtain authentic copies of the scriptures.

 

"These scriptures unambiguously support the meatless way of life. In the Mahabharata, for instance, the great warrior Bhishma explains to Yudhishtira, eldest of the Pandava princes, that the meat of animals is like the flesh of one's own son, and that the foolish person who eats meat must be considered the vilest of human beings [Anu. 114.11]. The eating of 'dirty' food, it warns, is not as terrible as the eating of flesh [shanti. 141.88] (it must be remembered that the brahmanas of ancient India exalted cleanliness to a divine principle).

 

"Similarly, the Manusmriti declares that one should 'refrain from eating all kinds of meat,' for such eating involves killing and leads to karmic bondage (bandha) [5.49]. Elsewhere in the Vedic literature, the last of the great Vedic kings, Maharaja Parikshit, is quoted as saying that 'only the animal-killer cannot relish the message of the Absolute Truth [shrimad Bhagavatam 10.1.4].' "

 

　

 

IX. Scriptures Against Killing and Meat-Eating

 

Hindu scripture speaks clearly and forcefully on nonkilling and vegetarianism. In the ancient Rig Veda, we read: "O vegetable, be succulent, wholesome, strengthening; and thus, body, be fully grown." The Yajur Veda summarily dictates: "Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water." The beautiful Tirukural, a widely-read 2,000-year-old masterpiece of ethics, speaks of conscience: "When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it." The Manu Samhita advises: "Having well considered the origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying of corporeal beings, let one entirely abstain from eating flesh." In the yoga-infused verses of the Tirumantiram, warning is given of how meat-eating holds the mind in gross, adharmic states: "The ignoble ones who eat flesh, death's agents bind them fast and push them quick into the fiery jaws of hell (Naraka, lower consciousness)." The roots of noninjury, nonkilling and nonconsumption of meat are found in the Vedas, agamas, Upanishads, Dharma Shastras, Tirumurai, Yoga Sutras and dozens of other sacred texts of Hinduism. Here is a select collection.

 

Vedas and agamas, Hinduism's Revealed Scriptures

 

LET YOUR AIMS BE COMMON, and your hearts be of one accord, and all of you be of one mind, so you may live well together.

Rig Veda Samhita 10.191

 

Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers!

Rig Veda Samhita 10.37.11. VE, 319

 

One who partakes of human flesh, the flesh of a horse or of another animal, and deprives others of milk by slaughtering cows, O King, if such a fiend does not desist by other means, then you should not hesitate to cut off his head.

Rig Veda Samhita, 10.87.16, FS 90

 

Peaceful be the earth, peaceful the ether, peaceful heaven, peaceful the waters, peaceful the herbs, peaceful the trees. May all Gods bring me peace. May there be peace through these invocations of peace. With these invocations of peace which appease everything, I render peaceful whatever here is terrible, whatever here is cruel, whatever here is sinful. Let it become auspicious, let everything be beneficial to us.

Atharva Veda Samhita 10. 191. 4

 

Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices.

Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5. FS, 90

 

If we have injured space, the earth or heaven, or if we have offended mother or father, from that may Agni, fire of the house, absolve us and guide us safely to the world of goodness.

 

Atharva Veda Samhita 6.120.1. VE, 636

 

You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever.

Yajur Veda Samhita 12.32. FS, 90

 

May all beings look at me with a friendly eye. May I do likewise, and may we all look on each other with the eyes of a friend.

Yajur Veda 36.18.

 

Nonviolence is all the offerings. Renunciation is the priestly honorarium. The final purification is death. Thus all the Divinities are established in this body.

Krishna Yajur Veda, Prana Upanishad 46-8. VE, 413-14

 

To the heavens be peace, to the sky and the earth; to the waters be peace, to plants and all trees; to the Gods be peace, to Brahman be peace, to all men be peace, again and again-peace also to me! O earthen vessel, strengthen me. May all beings regard me with friendly eyes! May I look upon all creatures with friendly eyes! With a friend's eye may we regard each other!

Shukla Yajur Veda Samhita 36.17-18. VE, 306; 342

 

No pain should be caused to any created being or thing.

Devikalottara agama, JAV 69-79. RM, 116

 

The Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita, Epic History

 

The very name of the cows is aghnya, indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits the most heinous crime.

Mahabharata, Shantiparva 262.47. FS,pg. 94

 

The purchaser of flesh performs himsa (violence) by his wealth; he who eats flesh does so by enjoying its taste; the killer does himsa by actually tying and killing the animal. Thus, there are three forms of killing: he who brings flesh or sends for it, he who cuts off the limbs of an animal, and he who purchases, sells or cooks flesh and eats it -all of these are to be considered meat-eaters.

Mahabharata, Anu. 115.40. FS, pg 90

 

He who desires to augment his own flesh by eating the flesh of other creatures lives in misery in whatever species he may take his birth.

Mahabharata, Anu. 115.47. FS, pg. 90

 

One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one's own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Yielding to desire and acting differently, one becomes guilty of adharma.

Mahabharata 18.113.8.

 

Those high-souled persons who desire beauty, faultlessness of limbs, long life, understanding, mental and physical strength and memory should abstain from acts of injury.

Mahabharata 18.115.8.

 

Ahimsa is the highest dharma. Ahimsa is the best tapas. Ahimsa is the greatest gift. Ahimsa is the highest self-control. Ahimsa is the highest sacrifice. Ahimsa is the highest power. Ahimsa is the highest friend. Ahimsa is the highest truth. Ahimsa is the highest teaching.

Mahabharata 18.116.37-41.

 

He who sees that the Lord of all is ever the same in all that is-immortal in the field of mortality-he sees the truth. And when a man sees that the God in himself is the same God in all that is, he hurts not himself by hurting others. Then he goes, indeed, to the highest path.

Bhagavad Gita 13. 27-28. BgM, pg. 101

 

Nonviolence, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, serenity, aversion to fault-finding, sympathy for all beings, peace from greedy cravings, gentleness, modesty, steadiness, energy, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, a good will, freedom from pride-these belong to a man who is born for heaven.

Bhagavad Gita 16.2-3. BGM, pg. 109

 

Tirumantiram and other Scriptures

 

Many are the lovely flowers of worship offered to the Guru, but none lovelier than non-killing. Respect for life is the highest worship, the bright lamp, the sweet garland and unwavering devotion.

Tirumantiram 197

 

SPIRITUAL MERIT and sin are our own making. The killer of other lives is an outcast. Match your words with your conduct. Steal not, kill not, indulge not in self-praise, condemn not others to their face.

Lingayat Vachanas

 

AHIMSA IS NOT CAUSING pain to any living being at any time through the actions of one's mind, speech or body. Sandilya UpanishadWhen mindstuff is firmly based in waves of ahimsa, all living beings cease their enmity in the presence of such a person.

Yoga Sutras 2.35. YP, pg. 205

 

Those who are ignorant of real dharma and, though wicked and haughty, account themselves virtuous, kill animals without any feeling of remorse or fear of punishment. Further, in their next lives, such sinful persons will be eaten by the same creatures they have killed in this world.

Shrimad Bhagavatam 11.5.4. FS, pg, 90

 

The Tirukural, Preeminent Ethical Scripture

 

Perhaps nowhere is the principle of nonmeat-eating so fully and eloquently expressed as in the Tirukural, written in the Tamil language by a simple weaver saint in a village near Madras over 2,000 years ago. Considered the world's greatest ethical scripture, it is sworn on in South Indian courts of law.

 

It is the principle of the pure in heart never to injure others, even when they themselves have been hatefully injured. What is virtuous conduct? It is never destroying life, for killing leads to every other sin.

312; 321, TW

 

Harming others, even enemies who harmed you unprovoked, assures incessant sorrow. The supreme principle is this: never knowingly harm any one at any time in any way.

313; 317, TW

 

What is the good way? It is the path that reflects on how it may avoid killing any living creature. Refrain from taking precious life from any living being, even to save your own life.

324; 327, TW

 

How can he practice true compassion Who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh?

TK 251, TW

 

Riches cannot be found in the hands of the thriftless. Nor can compassion be found in the hearts of those who eat meat.

TK 252, TW

 

Goodness is never one with the minds of these two: one who wields a weapon and one who feasts on a creature's flesh.

TK 253, TW

 

If you ask, "What is kindness and what is unkind?" it is not killing and killing. Thus, eating flesh is never virtuous.

TK 254, TW

 

Life is perpetuated by not eating meat.The clenched jaws of hell hold those who do.

TK 255, TW

 

If the world did not purchase and consume meat, there would be none to slaughter and offer meat for sale.

TK 256, TW

 

When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh of another creature, he must abstain from eating it.

TK 257, TW

 

Perceptive souls who have abandoned passion will not feed on flesh abandoned by life.

TK 258, TW

 

Greater than a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires is to not sacrifice and consume any living creature.

TK 259, TW

 

All that lives will press palms together in prayerful adoration of those who refuse to slaughter and savor meat.

TK 260, TW

 

　

 

X. Hindu Religious Leaders on Noninjury

 

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured by the way in which its animals are treated.

Mahatma Gandhi

 

As long as human society continues to allow cows to be regularly killed in slaughterhouses, there cannot be any question of peace and prosperity.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Refrain from killing knowingly even the trifling insects like a louse, a bug or a mosquito. Use no violence even to gain possession of a woman, wealth or kingdom. Never kill any animals even for the purpose of sacrifice. Non-violence is the greatest of all religions.

Swami Sahajanand, Divine Life Society

 

O lover of meditation, become pure and clean. Observe nonviolence in mind, speech and body. Never break another's heart. Avoid wounding another's feelings. Harm no one. Help all. Neither be afraid nor frighten others.

Swami Muktananda

 

Someone who believes in violence and continues causing injury to others can never be peaceful himself.

Swami Satchidananda

 

To be free from violence is the duty of every man. No thought of revenge, hatred or ill will should arise in our minds. Injuring others gives rise to hatred.

Swami Sivananda

 

By ahimsa, Patanjali meant the removal of the desire to kill. All forms of life have an equal right to the air of maya. The saint who uncovers the secret of creation will be in harmony with Nature's countless bewildering expressions. All men may understand this truth by overcoming the passion for destruction.

Sri Yukteswar to Paramahansa Yogananda

 

If you plant eggplant, you can pluck eggplants. If you sow goodness, you can reap goodness. If you sow evil, you will reap evil. Do good to all. God is there, within you. Don't kill. Don't harbor anger.

Sage Yogaswami

 

We are all of the same race and religion. We are holy beings established in Divinity itself. This truth can be understood only by those who have grasped it through the magical charm of a life of dharma-not by other means. Because of that, sages have emphatically proclaimed again and again that it is necessary to love all existing lives as one's own.

Sage Yogaswami

 

The test of ahimsa is the absence of jealousy. The man whose heart never cherishes even the thought of injury to anyone, who rejoices at the prosperity of even his greatest enemy, that man is the bhakta, he is the yogi, he is the guru of all.

Swami Vivekananda

 

Strictly speaking, no activity and no industry is possible without a certain amount of violence, no matter how little. Even the very process of living is impossible without a certain amount of violence. What we have to do is to minimize it to the greatest extent possible.

Mahatma Gandhi, My Socialism, 34-35.

 

You do not like to suffer yourself. How can you inflict suffering on others? Every killing is a suicide. The eternal, blissful and natural state has been smothered by this life of ignorance. In this way the present life is due to the killing of the eternal, pristine Being. Is it not a case of suicide?

Ramana Maharshi, June 1935

 

The mansahari, "meat-eater," is poignantly described in the following passage from the obscure Mansahara Parihasajalpita Stotram:

 

"Those who eat the flesh of other creatures are nothing less than gristle-grinders, blood-drinkers, muscle-munchers, sinew-chewers, carcass-crunchers, flesh-feeders-those who make their throat a garbage pit and their stomach a graveyard-mean, angry, loathsomely jealous, confused and beset by covetousness, who without restraint would lie, deceive, kill or steal to solve immediate problems. They are flesh-feeders, loathsome to the Gods, but friendly to the asuras, who become their Gods and Goddesses, the blood-sucking monsters who inhabit Naraka and deceptively have it decorated to look like the pitriloka, the world of the fathers. To such beings the deluded meat-eaters pay homage and prostrate while munching the succulent flesh off bones."

 

 

Bibliography

 

BgM: Juan Mascaro, The Bhagavad Gita (Baltimore, Penguin Books, 1966).

 

VE: Raimundo Panikkar, The Vedic Experience (New Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass, 1989).

 

RM: Arthur Osborne, ed., The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi (London, Rider, 1959).

 

YP: Rammurti S. Mishra, The Textbook of Yoga Psychology (New York, Julian Press, 1963).

 

TW: Tiruvalluvar, Tirukural: The Weaver (English translation by Himalayan Academy, Concord, California, manuscript).

 

FS: Steven Rosen, Food for the Spirit, Vegetarianism and the World Religions (New York, 1990). Bala Books Inc. 74 Old Westbury Road, Old Westbury, N.Y, 11568

 

John Robbins, Diet For a New America (Walpole, New Hampshire, 1987). Stillpoint Publishing, Box 640, Walpole, NH 03608

[Ryan T.]

I, personally, have explored many different diets. From true vegan to red meat eater.

 

To start, I really try to see all food as sacred and a blessing.

 

While I do agree that many meat eaters over indulge in the flesh and some moderation could be found, I also find most arguments regarding vegetarianism to be flawed.

 

There is much research that shows that plants have just as much ability to think, feel and exist as any other creature. We as humans have only recently been able to start to grasp the slow and subtle nature of these otherly beings. For me, to summarily draw a line in the sand to say that this is life(meat based food) and this is not(plants and such) is akin to when slavery was practiced. Slaves were viewed as savages from the jungle and that was used a rationalization to what was done to them. Those broccoli and lettuce fields in Southern California are just much factory farms with as much suffering attached. We just don't have the senses to observe how these creatures live.

 

To for me personally, I try to be grateful for everything I have to eat. And living where I do in the cold north of Minnesota, I find it necessary to consume flesh-foods in order to maintain my energy levels, especially during the colder months.

 

I see grains as more harmful to spiritual development than meat. From a natural perspective(Taoist?), meat is readily available. Grains take an awful lot of work to create and cook in order to get anything out of them. Taoists from the beginning were wary of agriculture(read: grain production) as it is unnatural food stuffs and requires much more work. We also become a slave to the land.

 

But I do believe every person needs to find a balance of what works best for their own body and actively work to refine those needs.

[Taiji Bum]

Woohoooooo! It's bacon day! Bacon Bacon BACON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[voidisyinyang]

Hey we live in the same city: Minneapolis. Have you taken classes from Chunyi Lin yet? http://springforestqigong.com I just biked from Uptown to near St. Anthony Main. haha. I didn't eat breakfast but I ate a meat sandwich yesterday plus tons of cookies and about 3 BULBS of garlic and 5 bananas. haha. Crazy kungfu. Anyway the magnetic bliss in my brain kept me in full-lotus till 3 a.m. and then I dreamt of being in full-lotus.

 

I, personally, have explored many different diets. From true vegan to red meat eater.

 

To start, I really try to see all food as sacred and a blessing.

 

While I do agree that many meat eaters over indulge in the flesh and some moderation could be found, I also find most arguments regarding vegetarianism to be flawed.

 

There is much research that shows that plants have just as much ability to think, feel and exist as any other creature. We as humans have only recently been able to start to grasp the slow and subtle nature of these otherly beings. For me, to summarily draw a line in the sand to say that this is life(meat based food) and this is not(plants and such) is akin to when slavery was practiced. Slaves were viewed as savages from the jungle and that was used a rationalization to what was done to them. Those broccoli and lettuce fields in Southern California are just much factory farms with as much suffering attached. We just don't have the senses to observe how these creatures live.

 

To for me personally, I try to be grateful for everything I have to eat. And living where I do in the cold north of Minnesota, I find it necessary to consume flesh-foods in order to maintain my energy levels, especially during the colder months.

 

I see grains as more harmful to spiritual development than meat. From a natural perspective(Taoist?), meat is readily available. Grains take an awful lot of work to create and cook in order to get anything out of them. Taoists from the beginning were wary of agriculture(read: grain production) as it is unnatural food stuffs and requires much more work. We also become a slave to the land.

 

But I do believe every person needs to find a balance of what works best for their own body and actively work to refine those needs.

[Jedi777]

have compassion for our little friends dont eat them if you do its your karma

good luck everyone

Edited January 11, 2009 by Jedi777

[Pietro]

You see jedi, when you stop pretending to be scientific, and you stop pretending that you are not preaching, you write mech better posts.

Yes, ethiacal and ecological reasons are a good reason to eat less meat.

 

I also wanted to add that raw meat is very different from cooked meat. So I heard more than one vegetarian that after being vegetarian for many years decided to get back meat because they feel they need. But to avoid the poisoning of it they started eating it raw.

[xakarii]

created? by who?

Jesus, of course. Or aliens. Can't decide today."

 

Haha this reminds me of a song by the three melancholy gypsies...

 

"If god created earth

 

then he ain't from here

 

so what does that make him?"

 

But more on the subject, I think the pharmaceuticals like hormones, antibiotics, etc are more dangerous than any aforementioned "negative karma" or "fear enzymes" and equally harmful toxins can be found in just about all your readily available grocery store fruits and veggies.

 

Also... on some level aren't the animals, like all living beings, part of the same great spirit or unity of consciousness?

 

When we worry about their suffering are we not worrying about our own? Isn't worry the real culprit?

[voidisyinyang]

Worry is actually from too much sugar! haha. When I sit in full-lotus my diet immediately manifests as "negative karma" -- sugar and acidic diet = shit! Thats why I had to eat THREE BULBS OF GARLIC when I ate tons of sugar and meat yesterday for my one meal. But then I also biked 10 miles through the snow and ice in cold weather. Sitting in full-lotus makes the emotions as electrochemical blockages (nutrition) go up into the brain and then get projected as energy -- made conscious. I get the "mind parasites" -- aka that tingling sensation which is perceived by others as the smell of shit. When I pop in a clove of garlic the tingling goes away as does the shit smell. Of course after about 10 minutes that clove of garlic turns into the smell of rotten eggs which is also found in shit anyway so... haha. Amazingly hydrogen sulfide has been found to double strength and endurance -- last week I actually snapped off the freewheel of my bike and I was told it was the power of my legs. haha. Too much fat (meat, alcohol) = anger as liver damage. Too much smoke = sadness as lung damage. Too much caffeine = fear as kidney damage. Sugar, booze, meat, caffeine, smoke -- all the staples of civilization.

 

So let's put pigs on a high tryptophan diet:

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...5d19dc0668fbcde

Edited January 11, 2009 by drew hempel

[agharta]

Diet is a bigger issue than "meat versus not-meat". Healthwise, I'd say it's definitely possible to get by without eating "meat", per se, if you are willing to eat other animal products that have the same or similar nutritional factors.

 

 

 

As far as Dr. Price's work goes, yes, it is outdated...but he showed that crooked teeth are mostly caused by poor nutrition, and he was the very first person (and pretty much the only, for many decades) to say that. If you doubt that particular conclusion, you haven't read his book. If anyone wonders if they should read his book, here are 3 reasons to think his basic conclusion is worth investigating (assuming you doubt his thoughts on crooked teeth):

 

1. Rickets, the curving/weakening/softening of the lower leg bones, is caused by deficiencies of Vitamin D and calcium. Rickets can be cured by supplementing with these two substances.

 

2. Native tribes have much less problem with crooked teeth (and cavities) than people on a modern diet. If you are unsure of this, Google search about evolutionary changes in jaw size in humans. Our jaws have suddenly gotten smaller since we started eating lots of grains, around 10 thousand years ago, but our teeth haven't gotten smaller, and we still, in most cases, have 32 adult teeth, which have not changed size at all, unlike our jaws. Anthropologists think the change is a result of our evolution, but Dr. Price's work shows otherwise. So does common sense. Nature wouldn't try to shove the same number of the same sized teeth into a smaller jaw. We are simply forced, by our poor diets, to have smaller jaws.

 

3. Native diets have much more calcium and Vitamin D than "modern" diets, up to 10 times more.

 

The real question is, exactly what is the ideal human diet, healthwise? After reading Dr. Price's book, it's clear that eating a little seafood/meat and maybe some shellfish/roe is a pretty safe bet, in terms of health. The healthiest tribes he found were the ones that ate either lots of organ meats, lots of fish/shellfish, or both. These groups were much healthier, in terms of bone structure and dental health, than the groups that were less able to get access to lots of meat and seafoods. You should be careful about your sources, but, in general, the fears about mercury in seafood are overblown, as long as you are careful about which fish and which body parts you eat. Ask me, if you don't know which fish and body parts to eat. Most meat is pretty OK, too, as long as the animal is raised on something very close to its natural diet.

 

I'm not saying you HAVE to eat meat to be healthy...but I suggest to ANYONE to read Dr. Price's book and consider it CAREFULLY before making grand pronouncements and sweeping generalizations about health and diet. Seriously. I majorly fucked up my health with a low-fat raw fruits-and-greens chimpanzee-style diet. It screwed up my brain big-time, and it took a couple of years of a high-fat diet with lots of good-quality fish, meat, and animal fats (mostly raw) to get rid of the panic attacks and the constant low-grade fear/worry/dread. That's not even mentioning the terrible tooth sensitivity that I developed, and am still getting over through mineral supplements and good quality fats. We really are meant to eat some animal products to achieve our best health, and the more you limit your personal diet for moral/religious/ethical/emotional reasons, the smarter you had better be in getting the necessary nutrients. I know a LOT of long-term vegans whose brains will probably never recover. Don't believe the anti-animal-fat hype. The raw fat of a healthy animal is a healthy food. The Eskimos had excellent health on their blubber-and-oil diet, They believed that seal oil is a health food, and it is incredibly high in Vitamin A. They didn't know that, but their dietary intuition told them they needed to eat it. Also, you don't have to live in a cold climate to eat a lot of raw animal fat. They Masai of East Africa had excellent health on their meat and milk diet. Their diet was very high-fat, and they had much better teeth and skeletal health on their diet than the Bantu, who ate a lower-fat, mostly-vegetarian diet. The Bantu had 13 times the rate of cavities as the Masai. not 13%. 1300%. People, this is why your teeth suck. You have no idea how to eat.

 

After listening to the Buddhists about eating meat, and listening to the fruitarians about their diet, and the raw foodists, and getting my brain and teeth seriously fucked up, I am WAY TOO FUCKING SMART to follow any dietary ideology too closely. (Experience is a good teacher, but the tuition is high.) I study constantly, and I suggest that anybody who changes their diet better know their shit beforehand, and ask those more knowledgable about what to do and what to read. Go ahead, read the China Study...and then read Dr. Price's book. Particularly, chapters 15-20. Here is a link:

 

Dr. Price's book, the first 20 chapters. Take a long, loooooong look at chapters 15-20. If you want to actually know something about food and health, you need to know chapters 15-20 as well as a bicyclist knows how to pedal a bike. Seriously. It's not the only book you'll need to read carefully about diet, but none of the others make as much sense without it. Again, I'm not an ideologue. I do what works. You want to get a good, basic idea of what works, in terms diet and health? That's one of the best places to to start.

 

I don't want much blowback on this, right now. IF you disagree with me, read those 5 chapters about 3 times. Take a month to think it over, then read it again. If you STILL disagree with me, then post. Otherwise, I'm quite likely to place you firmly in the "might get it right in 10 years" category, and will quite likely ignore anything you say about this. Like I said, read it, give a few weeks or a month, read it again, THEN post. Also, if I get dogpiled by a bunch of vegetarians over this, I'll probably never post about diet here again. I've already had my one-man battle about these issues on another message board, and feelings are still pretty hurt about it, years later. I find that even the fairly idiotic among you has some quality of genius in some cases, and I don't feel like making angry those who might casually teach me a precious thing that I can use for many years hence. I've learned some awesome stuff from you guys, and I don't want to cause a bunch of hurt feelings here, OK? I waited several days before I posted on this thread, so my response would be calmer and cooler, and I think we could all take a page from that book, if we want productive discussions, mmkay? LOL

[Jedi777]

Diet is a bigger issue than "meat versus not-meat". Healthwise, I'd say it's definitely possible to get by without eating "meat", per se, if you are willing to eat other animal products that have the same or similar nutritional factors.

 

 

 

As far as Dr. Price's work goes, yes, it is outdated...but he showed that crooked teeth are mostly caused by poor nutrition, and he was the very first person (and pretty much the only, for many decades) to say that. If you doubt that particular conclusion, you haven't read his book. If anyone wonders if they should read his book, here are 3 reasons to think his basic conclusion is worth investigating (assuming you doubt his thoughts on crooked teeth):

 

1. Rickets, the curving/weakening/softening of the lower leg bones, is caused by deficiencies of Vitamin D and calcium. Rickets can be cured by supplementing with these two substances.

 

2. Native tribes have much less problem with crooked teeth (and cavities) than people on a modern diet. If you are unsure of this, Google search about evolutionary changes in jaw size in humans. Our jaws have suddenly gotten smaller since we started eating lots of grains, around 10 thousand years ago, but our teeth haven't gotten smaller, and we still, in most cases, have 32 adult teeth, which have not changed size at all, unlike our jaws. Anthropologists think the change is a result of our evolution, but Dr. Price's work shows otherwise. So does common sense. Nature wouldn't try to shove the same number of the same sized teeth into a smaller jaw. We are simply forced, by our poor diets, to have smaller jaws.

 

3. Native diets have much more calcium and Vitamin D than "modern" diets, up to 10 times more.

 

The real question is, exactly what is the ideal human diet, healthwise? After reading Dr. Price's book, it's clear that eating a little seafood/meat and maybe some shellfish/roe is a pretty safe bet, in terms of health. The healthiest tribes he found were the ones that ate either lots of organ meats, lots of fish/shellfish, or both. These groups were much healthier, in terms of bone structure and dental health, than the groups that were less able to get access to lots of meat and seafoods. You should be careful about your sources, but, in general, the fears about mercury in seafood are overblown, as long as you are careful about which fish and which body parts you eat. Ask me, if you don't know which fish and body parts to eat. Most meat is pretty OK, too, as long as the animal is raised on something very close to its natural diet.

 

I'm not saying you HAVE to eat meat to be healthy...but I suggest to ANYONE to read Dr. Price's book and consider it CAREFULLY before making grand pronouncements and sweeping generalizations about health and diet. Seriously. I majorly fucked up my health with a low-fat raw fruits-and-greens chimpanzee-style diet. It screwed up my brain big-time, and it took a couple of years of a high-fat diet with lots of good-quality fish, meat, and animal fats (mostly raw) to get rid of the panic attacks and the constant low-grade fear/worry/dread. That's not even mentioning the terrible tooth sensitivity that I developed, and am still getting over through mineral supplements and good quality fats. We really are meant to eat some animal products to achieve our best health, and the more you limit your personal diet for moral/religious/ethical/emotional reasons, the smarter you had better be in getting the necessary nutrients. I know a LOT of long-term vegans whose brains will probably never recover. Don't believe the anti-animal-fat hype. The raw fat of a healthy animal is a healthy food. The Eskimos had excellent health on their blubber-and-oil diet, They believed that seal oil is a health food, and it is incredibly high in Vitamin A. They didn't know that, but their dietary intuition told them they needed to eat it. Also, you don't have to live in a cold climate to eat a lot of raw animal fat. They Masai of East Africa had excellent health on their meat and milk diet. Their diet was very high-fat, and they had much better teeth and skeletal health on their diet than the Bantu, who ate a lower-fat, mostly-vegetarian diet. The Bantu had 13 times the rate of cavities as the Masai. not 13%. 1300%. People, this is why your teeth suck. You have no idea how to eat.

 

After listening to the Buddhists about eating meat, and listening to the fruitarians about their diet, and the raw foodists, and getting my brain and teeth seriously fucked up, I am WAY TOO FUCKING SMART to follow any dietary ideology too closely. (Experience is a good teacher, but the tuition is high.) I study constantly, and I suggest that anybody who changes their diet better know their shit beforehand, and ask those more knowledgable about what to do and what to read. Go ahead, read the China Study...and then read Dr. Price's book. Particularly, chapters 15-20. Here is a link:

 

Dr. Price's book, the first 20 chapters. Take a long, loooooong look at chapters 15-20. If you want to actually know something about food and health, you need to know chapters 15-20 as well as a bicyclist knows how to pedal a bike. Seriously. It's not the only book you'll need to read carefully about diet, but none of the others make as much sense without it. Again, I'm not an ideologue. I do what works. You want to get a good, basic idea of what works, in terms diet and health? That's one of the best places to to start.

 

I don't want much blowback on this, right now. IF you disagree with me, read those 5 chapters about 3 times. Take a month to think it over, then read it again. If you STILL disagree with me, then post. Otherwise, I'm quite likely to place you firmly in the "might get it right in 10 years" category, and will quite likely ignore anything you say about this. Like I said, read it, give a few weeks or a month, read it again, THEN post. Also, if I get dogpiled by a bunch of vegetarians over this, I'll probably never post about diet here again. I've already had my one-man battle about these issues on another message board, and feelings are still pretty hurt about it, years later. I find that even the fairly idiotic among you has some quality of genius in some cases, and I don't feel like making angry those who might casually teach me a precious thing that I can use for many years hence. I've learned some awesome stuff from you guys, and I don't want to cause a bunch of hurt feelings here, OK? I waited several days before I posted on this thread, so my response would be calmer and cooler, and I think we could all take a page from that book, if we want productive discussions, mmkay? LOL

[gendao]

I majorly fucked up my health with a low-fat raw fruits-and-greens chimpanzee-style diet. It screwed up my brain big-time, and it took a couple of years of a high-fat diet with lots of good-quality fish, meat, and animal fats (mostly raw) to get rid of the panic attacks and the constant low-grade fear/worry/dread. That's not even mentioning the terrible tooth sensitivity that I developed, and am still getting over through mineral supplements and good quality fats. We really are meant to eat some animal products to achieve our best health, and the more you limit your personal diet for moral/religious/ethical/emotional reasons, the smarter you had better be in getting the necessary nutrients. I know a LOT of long-term vegans whose brains will probably never recover. Don't believe the anti-animal-fat hype. The raw fat of a healthy animal is a healthy food. The Eskimos had excellent health on their blubber-and-oil diet, They believed that seal oil is a health food, and it is incredibly high in Vitamin A. They didn't know that, but their dietary intuition told them they needed to eat it. Also, you don't have to live in a cold climate to eat a lot of raw animal fat. They Masai of East Africa had excellent health on their meat and milk diet. Their diet was very high-fat, and they had much better teeth and skeletal health on their diet than the Bantu, who ate a lower-fat, mostly-vegetarian diet. The Bantu had 13 times the rate of cavities as the Masai. not 13%. 1300%. People, this is why your teeth suck. You have no idea how to eat.

Patrick Timpone suspects that being on a "fruity" diet for the last year gave him a ton of cavities. So, if you got a similar result from a "similar" diet, I'm wondering how common that is and what might have actually caused it?

 

Lack of fats? Too many carbs? Too much sugars?

 

BTW, what about plant fats? If insufficient fats are the problem, couldn't you just eat more nuts, olive, hemp and coconut oil or something?

[mantis]

 

this is your reply to a well thought out and articulate post regarding diet. of course, however, you have no problem being on the vegetarian bandwagon and "saving the animals" when your own race is killing itself.

 

ae-dlHOmwk4

 

Edited January 12, 2009 by mantis

[Quan Xie]

this is your reply to a well thought out and articulate post regarding diet. of course, however, you have no problem being on the vegetarian bandwagon and "saving the animals" when your own race is killing itself.

 

 

There are more people on this planet than in any other time in history (modern history), how can you say we are killing the race?

[mantis]

There are more people on this planet than in any other time in history (modern history), how can you say we are killing the race?

 

putting toxins in our food, air, water & earth

 

hummm i don't know

[voidisyinyang]

Well the secret of ecology is systems theory which relies on over-correcting a situation in order to make the system go "straight." So the current highest population is actually a sign of system collapse called "carrying capacity" in ecology -- the population peaks and then crashes. The below link states that 80-90% of the destruction of the Earth's main source of water and oxygen (the Amazon) is from cattle ranching. Well that's changed in the past five years due to the soy boom to feed chickens and pigs.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/200901...WpJwCEATAYPLBIF

 

In turn there are more natural fires which then cause more destruction -- so there's a "positive feedback cycle" or acceleration of the destruction.

[Lighttime]

This makes for very interesting reading.

 

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/research/index.shtml

 

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/frank-talk/index.shtml

 

http://www.beyondveg.com/.

[alexandrov]

Diet is a bigger issue than "meat versus not-meat". Healthwise, I'd say it's definitely possible to get by without eating "meat", per se, if you are willing to eat other animal products that have the same or similar nutritional factors.

 

 

 

As far as Dr. Price's work goes, yes, it is outdated...but he showed that crooked teeth are mostly caused by poor nutrition, and he was the very first person (and pretty much the only, for many decades) to say that. If you doubt that particular conclusion, you haven't read his book. If anyone wonders if they should read his book, here are 3 reasons to think his basic conclusion is worth investigating (assuming you doubt his thoughts on crooked teeth):

 

1. Rickets, the curving/weakening/softening of the lower leg bones, is caused by deficiencies of Vitamin D and calcium. Rickets can be cured by supplementing with these two substances.

 

2. Native tribes have much less problem with crooked teeth (and cavities) than people on a modern diet. If you are unsure of this, Google search about evolutionary changes in jaw size in humans. Our jaws have suddenly gotten smaller since we started eating lots of grains, around 10 thousand years ago, but our teeth haven't gotten smaller, and we still, in most cases, have 32 adult teeth, which have not changed size at all, unlike our jaws. Anthropologists think the change is a result of our evolution, but Dr. Price's work shows otherwise. So does common sense. Nature wouldn't try to shove the same number of the same sized teeth into a smaller jaw. We are simply forced, by our poor diets, to have smaller jaws.

 

3. Native diets have much more calcium and Vitamin D than "modern" diets, up to 10 times more.

 

The real question is, exactly what is the ideal human diet, healthwise? After reading Dr. Price's book, it's clear that eating a little seafood/meat and maybe some shellfish/roe is a pretty safe bet, in terms of health. The healthiest tribes he found were the ones that ate either lots of organ meats, lots of fish/shellfish, or both. These groups were much healthier, in terms of bone structure and dental health, than the groups that were less able to get access to lots of meat and seafoods. You should be careful about your sources, but, in general, the fears about mercury in seafood are overblown, as long as you are careful about which fish and which body parts you eat. Ask me, if you don't know which fish and body parts to eat. Most meat is pretty OK, too, as long as the animal is raised on something very close to its natural diet.

 

I'm not saying you HAVE to eat meat to be healthy...but I suggest to ANYONE to read Dr. Price's book and consider it CAREFULLY before making grand pronouncements and sweeping generalizations about health and diet. Seriously. I majorly fucked up my health with a low-fat raw fruits-and-greens chimpanzee-style diet. It screwed up my brain big-time, and it took a couple of years of a high-fat diet with lots of good-quality fish, meat, and animal fats (mostly raw) to get rid of the panic attacks and the constant low-grade fear/worry/dread. That's not even mentioning the terrible tooth sensitivity that I developed, and am still getting over through mineral supplements and good quality fats. We really are meant to eat some animal products to achieve our best health, and the more you limit your personal diet for moral/religious/ethical/emotional reasons, the smarter you had better be in getting the necessary nutrients. I know a LOT of long-term vegans whose brains will probably never recover. Don't believe the anti-animal-fat hype. The raw fat of a healthy animal is a healthy food. The Eskimos had excellent health on their blubber-and-oil diet, They believed that seal oil is a health food, and it is incredibly high in Vitamin A. They didn't know that, but their dietary intuition told them they needed to eat it. Also, you don't have to live in a cold climate to eat a lot of raw animal fat. They Masai of East Africa had excellent health on their meat and milk diet. Their diet was very high-fat, and they had much better teeth and skeletal health on their diet than the Bantu, who ate a lower-fat, mostly-vegetarian diet. The Bantu had 13 times the rate of cavities as the Masai. not 13%. 1300%. People, this is why your teeth suck. You have no idea how to eat.

 

After listening to the Buddhists about eating meat, and listening to the fruitarians about their diet, and the raw foodists, and getting my brain and teeth seriously fucked up, I am WAY TOO FUCKING SMART to follow any dietary ideology too closely. (Experience is a good teacher, but the tuition is high.) I study constantly, and I suggest that anybody who changes their diet better know their shit beforehand, and ask those more knowledgable about what to do and what to read. Go ahead, read the China Study...and then read Dr. Price's book. Particularly, chapters 15-20. Here is a link:

 

Dr. Price's book, the first 20 chapters. Take a long, loooooong look at chapters 15-20. If you want to actually know something about food and health, you need to know chapters 15-20 as well as a bicyclist knows how to pedal a bike. Seriously. It's not the only book you'll need to read carefully about diet, but none of the others make as much sense without it. Again, I'm not an ideologue. I do what works. You want to get a good, basic idea of what works, in terms diet and health? That's one of the best places to to start.

 

I don't want much blowback on this, right now. IF you disagree with me, read those 5 chapters about 3 times. Take a month to think it over, then read it again. If you STILL disagree with me, then post. Otherwise, I'm quite likely to place you firmly in the "might get it right in 10 years" category, and will quite likely ignore anything you say about this. Like I said, read it, give a few weeks or a month, read it again, THEN post. Also, if I get dogpiled by a bunch of vegetarians over this, I'll probably never post about diet here again. I've already had my one-man battle about these issues on another message board, and feelings are still pretty hurt about it, years later. I find that even the fairly idiotic among you has some quality of genius in some cases, and I don't feel like making angry those who might casually teach me a precious thing that I can use for many years hence. I've learned some awesome stuff from you guys, and I don't want to cause a bunch of hurt feelings here, OK? I waited several days before I posted on this thread, so my response would be calmer and cooler, and I think we could all take a page from that book, if we want productive discussions, mmkay? LOL

 

 

 

Hits the nail dead on. It is very hard to argue with evidence that has been consistantly produced from peoples that were/are physically isolated from each other. The problem with many modern studies that bash animal products is that they do not take into account the quality of the animal products.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jedi, why dont you try to give us a little more thought as to why you do not agree with some of the above statements made by Agarthi. Did you look over the book nutrition and physical degeneration? Did you read over the sections agharte mentioned as particularly important? If not I would recommend that you do so, this book contains some very good information that is of interest to even those who might disagree with it. Taking a look at it could not hurt especially since Agartta recommended that those who wished to engage him in debate do so as a prerequisite. Agartha made a valid point using arguments based mostly on logic. Also he obviously put a lot of thought and time into his post, to ridicule what he said without using any form of logic whatsoever seems pointless to me. Why not provide an argument against what he said with some kind of logic or other method of portraying ideas/thoughts that involves a little bit more cerebral activity. How about write an equally thourough post as to why you disagree with some of his points. It would be nice if you shared your personal opinion supported by facts you researched with us on the matter rather then just posting links to information you agree with. You must know a lot of information on this topic to bring it up in the first place, so please share it with us.

[Ya Mu]

Most meat is pretty OK, too, as long as the animal is raised on something very close to its natural diet.

 

It seems to me the diet of the animal is being completely overlooked in this "debate". Unfortunate.

 

 

... The problem with many modern studies that bash animal products is that they do not take into account the quality of the animal products....

 

The 'meat" debate was on another thread just a few weeks ago. Anyone interested should do a search.

 

Besides ignoring the quality of the meat (logically we cannot), as pointed out in the other mentioned thread, everyone seems to be ignoring the HUGE difference obtained by blessing the food.

 

... Agartha made a valid point using arguments based mostly on logic.

 

Points made by logic are too often ignored in this forum. Too many posts are emotional and not logic based.

 

 

I already posted on this in the other thread but here is my summation on the subject.

 

1) When in the "qi state" you can intelligently choose the particular foods your body needs at ANY PARTICULAR NOW. At times, for many people, this includes meat. For others it means no meat. But a person has to practice LISTENING to know.

 

2) Meat should be naturally raised. If eating beef this means, in addition to no growth hormones and antibiotics, healthy pasture fed beef and not grain fed products. It has been shown that the pasture fed beef has a higher omega 3 content.

One may wish to look at venison and buffalo versus eating beef as the fat ratio is significantly different.

 

3) Meat should be properly slaughtered. This means paying attention to cleanliness and the state of the animal upon death. If the animal has fear this energy will be transfered to the meat.

Halal and kosher butchers are the better choices if you are unwilling to do so yourself.

 

4) Meat, as well as anything else one intakes into their body, should be properly blessed. This means cleaning and transmuting the food utilizing higher vibrational energies. Doesn't mean "giving thanks", which is a separate issue.

 

5) As pointed out, if fish is a person's choice, one needs to pay close attention to the mercury content of the fish. It differs significantly depending on the type of fish. Coal fired power plants, the main contributor of mercury pollution, are not going away until we embrace alternative power sources like solar and wind.

 

Jedi brings up many valid points as well. If a person is eating meat at every meal then perhaps health-wise he should review the points that have been brought up.

[Lightbringer]

I was thinking during this whole thread about something that happened to me not too long ago. I found myself in a sort of impulsive two day fast. After the two days, I went out for all you can eat sushi, figuring I'd be starved. I ended up being unable to eat any chicken or beef products. The cooking of the meat and flavouring it with teriyaki, I couldn't make me overcome to repulsion I had to the meat. I thought I was sick at the time, but as soon as salmon sashimi hit the table, I downed it with ease. Normally I have a slight aversion to the texture over time, but not then. It only dawned on me later that the things I wanted to eat were fish (I understand people don't want to kill their food, but the benefits of eating oily fish especially are huge!), brown rice, vegetables and seaweed. Somehow my fast had me eating what was healthiest for me (at that moment) only. Interesting stuff.

 

As far as red meats, another piece of advice would be to try other types of red meat like bison. It's got a much higher omega 3 content than beef and a much better omega 3 to omega 6 balance which are key. Less traditional meats are interesting, feel lighter and more wholesome, and the farmers who are already occupying a slightly more expensive niche have no problem raising their animals naturally (grazing, no antibiotics, no hormones).

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Great article. It makes some interesting points I had not considered before and will now use when ever people question the validity of vegetarianism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Meat should be properly slaughtered. This means paying attention to cleanliness and the state of the animal upon death. If the animal has fear this energy will be transfered to the meat.

Halal and kosher butchers are the better choices if you are unwilling to do so yourself.

 

 

 

Halal and kosher were maybe clean and "humane" in the times they were invented (and in Plauge era Europe... which did not work in the Jews favour). Hence the reason for their invention and people still hold onto them as if they had anything more than a pragmatic purpose.

 

Halal and Kosher meat is still slaughtered in factory farms in most of the west and they do so by hanging the animals of moving conveyer belts of hooks and slitting their throats so that blood does not touch....not exactly a pleasent way to die if you ask me. And they are usaully subject to the same life as other factory farmed animals.

[Ya Mu]

 

Halal and kosher were maybe clean and "humane" in the times they were invented (and in Plauge era Europe... which did not work in the Jews favour). Hence the reason for their invention and people still hold onto them as if they had anything more than a pragmatic purpose.

 

Halal and Kosher meat is still slaughtered in factory farms in most of the west and they do so by hanging the animals of moving conveyer belts of hooks and slitting their throats so that blood does not touch....not exactly a pleasent way to die if you ask me. And they are usaully subject to the same life as other factory farmed animals.

 

Immediately bleeding out, saying prayers, keeping clean, etc is not exactly how conventional slaughtering is done. I was thinking of local Halal butchers, not factory processing.

 

 

"Much like kosher meat, halal meat must be slaughtered and processed under strict religious standards and supervision, and it's won fans even among non-Muslims. At the Fertile Crescent (570 Atlantic Ave. at Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn, 718-797-3066), a Muslim grocery with a butcher counter in the back, owner Hamed Nabawy said he's seeing an increasing number of American customers. "It's a growing part of our business," he said. "When they try it, they recommend it others."

 

"The razor-sharp edge of his knife flashed as it arced through the air. ''In the name of Allah, Allah is great,'' he whispered again. In one swift motion, Mr. Olgun slit the steer's throat. ''In the name of Allah, Allah is great,'' he said a third time.

Mr. Olgun stood still as the slaughtered steer was clamped into a harness and raised about 10 feet above the floor by a winch. Except for wiping his knife clean, he didn't move for the eight minutes it took for the blood to drain from the carcass.

Among Muslims, Mr. Olgun is considered holy. Like every halal butcher interviewed, Mohamed Soliman, who owns Halal Meat Market on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn, said that meat is only as pure as the heart of the one who slaughtered the animal. "

 

 

Notice I said "Halal and kosher butchers are the better choices if you are unwilling to do so yourself."

 

Better as in better than rushed factory processing. They say no prayers. But I do think a person ought to be willing to butcher the meat himself if he wants as pure as possible. And if you eat beef only pasture raised beef. I do not personally like beef or pork.

[Vajrasattva]

Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Lao Tzu, Guru Padmashambhava, Milarepa, Pema Dudal (rainbow Body Master), Buddha, Shiva, Babaji, Dalai Lama, Native Shamans, Powerful tantric Yogis ALL ate & eat meat.

 

I agree that all things should be in moderation and one should fast Often (1x to 3x a week) And at least 30days out of the year (such as Ramadan). Eat Plenty of Veggies, and drink plenty of good HERBAL TEA. For some practices you need the meat otherwise you will loose your Physical body pretty quickly.

 

If you are doing real practices you will be transmuting the energies of what you put in to your system pretty quickly. Also if you are empowered, you can take the negative energy out of the meal before ingesting or transmute it right on the spot. Also there are ways to work out the Karmas of the animal ingested for the benifit of their blood line etc.

 

Anyhow I am not going more into this. This is an argument and a topic we have touched many times.

 

All I know is what my Gurus have blessed me with & my own experience.

 

Peace & God Bless

 

Santiago

[Adj]

I have several family members who lived beyond 100 years.

 

They lived out in the middle of nowhere in Montana.

 

Their diet included the following.

 

Beef

Chicken

Gravy

mashed potatoes

corn

carrots

beans

pasta

bread

on occasion seasonal veggies (squash, spinach, strawberries)

 

Montana is very cold, my mother who grew up there did not eat bananas until she came out here to the east coast. Only a few foods available yet they lived so long.

 

My great uncle Bat lived to 104.

 

He grew up on steak and mashed potatoes with gravy and ice cream and would drink alcohol until he would pass out at the table and fall to the floor.

 

I think longevity has more to do with toxins. See he grew up in a time when foods werent as processed and had more nutrients and absolutely no toxins. Water came from wells, meat straight off the bones of the animals, and grains were whole and hearty. Veggies were hard to raise (drought and cold climate) but they were tasty fresh off the vine unlike the preripe crap you buy at the store.

 

It was also a stress free and calm place to live and ultimately that old guy lived a long ass time.

 

Therefore I think the key to longevity lies in cleansing toxins and addictions from our body(addiction to sugar and carbs from candida), listening to what our body needs and feeding it accordingly and learning to be happy and at peace.

 

If you listen to your body and it says eat meat, then eat meat. If you listen to it and it says dont eat meat, then don't eat meat. Cravings usually are a result of a deficiency of something your body needs. Dont resist them. (unless the craving is an addiction like to fast food, or drugs, or sugar, or refined carbs)

 

Personally I am gonna eat the way my genes are set up to eat, I look at those who lived long in my family, and follow with a few corrections to hopefully make it better.

 

I plan to live to 130. Possible, cause understanding of family dietary history, because of chi gong practice which provides self awareness, energy, stress reduction, and because of toxin reduction with choosing my foods.