meg Posted January 13, 2009 hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwight Posted January 13, 2009 I would say the universe, but I'm no Tao Te Ching expert. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) At least in part the laws of heaven are Astronomical, (& interpreted/seen as somewhat astrological also). The changes of the sun and moon and planets that have such a pull on our earth's seasons etc...The Tao moves the heavens from a broader base of creativity and receptivity...Wheels within wheels as it were... But also within ourselves we are potentially guided by higher-(heavenly) ideals that are in turn generated by the Tao...So thats how I see what is being addressed here- love to all-Pat Edited January 13, 2009 by Wayfarer64 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted January 13, 2009 hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg I'm guessing Earth = physical 3rd planeHeaven = spiritual astral planes Tao = the Creator, not the created Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gossamer Posted January 13, 2009 I'll tell you how to actually SEE what the Dao de Jing describes as "Heaven". Go to an airport, to where you can watch the arrivals, and simply watch the exchanges between people who obviously care for and Love each other. This is especially true when military folks come home from Iraq and Afghanistan, the beauty of the Love displayed is absolutely "Heaven". I've actually DONE this, and it's overwhelmingly beautiful, and I encourage YOU to do it too. Another place to see the "Heaven" described in the DDJ/TTC: Go to your local hospital's birthing floor, and watch new parents exchange with their new arrivals, through the glass. This is touching down to your toes! "Heaven" on earth! It doesn't get any BETTER! Peace, gossamer/Albion hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 13, 2009 Religious Taoism has a heaven just like Christians do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggie Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) heaven. imo = anything that isn't here on the earth. the whole spectrum, from tangible planets and energies to very low or very high frequencies, some of which some can see and some can not see, (and as far as the concept of "true" and "truth" goes) anyone who can see more than anyone else, sees more and knows more than anyone who does not. and not is it that if a majority does not see it that the majority is right, on the contrary, "special"/(and)individual people (in this case) may be more right than anyone else in any matter. it may seem as a contradiction, and it is. but really it is not. (for your consideration) i.e. the (developed) individual knows much more than any consensus group can know because of: A. people not wanting to believe another (or pretending not to believe another). and B. people not wanting to be not believed. and C. other factors. i.e. it is better to take someone who is sincere seriously than it would be not to. c.q. not everything that is commonly believed is true. (a mistake that has been made a lot so far and is still made some times. i.e. a lot of people don't still yet see this intrinsic Value.) Edited January 13, 2009 by froggie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lightbringer Posted January 13, 2009 Religious Taoism has a heaven just like Christians do. Buddhism has a big fat guy whose belly you rub for good luck, but I think we all know the idea of the Buddha has more to it than a metaphor for a wishing well. I wonder if "Religious Taoism" falls under the same line of thinking as belly-rubbing of deities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anabhogya-Carya Posted January 14, 2009 Buddhism has a big fat guy whose belly you rub for good luck, but I think we all know the idea of the Buddha has more to it than a metaphor for a wishing well. I wonder if "Religious Taoism" falls under the same line of thinking as belly-rubbing of deities. I would say most of it does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 14, 2009 I think heaven has to do with the higher planes and those who dwell there such as ascended beings and whatever native things are from there. But, who are we to say there is no Jade Emperor ruling the Chinese heavens? Whats so bad about the idea of a heaven? Can fish understand a monkey? Can humans understand an angel? I've been OBE so many times I can see how a heavan can exist but to be honest, I have never seen it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lightbringer Posted January 14, 2009 I would say most of it does. I was expecting disagreement so I figured I would phrase my statement ambivalently. Turns out I really should have just said "religion is spirituality mixed with superstition, and the latter has no use". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adam mizner Posted January 14, 2009 heaven or the heavens are just other planes, higher ones if you will. when you know them directly it is simple untill then it is just a waste of thought. the heavens of the religions are real just not ultimate. if you can OBE ( not a great discription) then you can visit higher planes. the skill is related, just a few other keys to the formula. metta adam I think heaven has to do with the higher planes and those who dwell there such as ascended beings and whatever native things are from there. But, who are we to say there is no Jade Emperor ruling the Chinese heavens? Whats so bad about the idea of a heaven? Can fish understand a monkey? Can humans understand an angel? I've been OBE so many times I can see how a heavan can exist but to be honest, I have never seen it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted January 14, 2009 hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading. the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live... - daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion... it points to the network of nature. humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not... earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth tian is rebound to dao dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 14, 2009 I was expecting disagreement so I figured I would phrase my statement ambivalently. Turns out I really should have just said "religion is spirituality mixed with superstition, and the latter has no use". You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy. The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites. Too bad you see only superstition..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anabhogya-Carya Posted January 14, 2009 You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy. The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites. Too bad you see only superstition..... And would it not be nice if thats all there was, and a general understanding of what it is. Unfortunatly this is rarely the case amongst the practitioners of mass religions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lightbringer Posted January 15, 2009 You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy. The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites. Too bad you see only superstition..... To say I ONLY see superstition is to say I see only dirt in a puddle of cloudy water. A few particles of sediment doesn't mean affect the existence of the water molecules in any way. They're simply in a cruder state, like the ore or a metal. But I am not blind to the fact that certain limiting beliefs such as "Jesus died for my sins, so now if I confess to a priest and say 20 Hail Marys, I am absolved of guilt" are superstition. I've done extensive study on many holy books though, from activities of the angelic beings in the Old Testament to the motivations behind Mohammed's teachings. The New Testament has always been my favourite though. Just enough magic thrown in with plenty of good lessons. It's too bad it is always seen as the sequel to the Old Testament, as if the messages of the two books are even remotely similar... And don't get my started on alchemy, I could talk for days! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted January 15, 2009 if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading. the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live... - daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion... it points to the network of nature. humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not... earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth tian is rebound to dao dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself Makes sense to me... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phore Posted January 15, 2009 if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading. the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live... - daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion... it points to the network of nature. humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not... earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth tian is rebound to dao dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself its important to remember that heaven is a term used to describe the universe. EX. "god created the heavens and the earth" heavens refers to space and the bodies within space. ive always thought that this is the way that heaven is used in taoist literature. when practicing chikung and gathering heaven qi it means to gather the qi in the universe. the planets can sometimes be refered to as angels or dieties. astral deva, planetar, solar angel. so heaven in this sense could have a symbolic meaning. the quoted post seems to be a good explanation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meg Posted January 23, 2009 wow! thanks everyone. i'm still not sure where i stand with the whole thing, but that's ok i read this last night: "There was a man who was so worried that heaven and earth might collapse, and that he would have nowhere to go, that he forgot to eat and sleep. He had a friend who was greatly worried about him, and went to reassure him. The friend said: 'Heaven is nothing but air; it cannot collapse.' The man said: 'If heaven is air, then the sun, the moon and the stars are liable to fall out of heaven, and hit people on earth.' The friend replied: 'The sun, the moon and the stars are simply lights inside air; they cannot fall down.'" But really i suppose, what does it all matter, right? but even as i say that, i'm anxious about the answer. but following the Way does not involve anxiety. so.........yah, i guess you know what im getting at lol. thank you all for your imput meg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meg Posted January 23, 2009 its important to remember that heaven is a term used to describe the universe. EX. "god created the heavens and the earth" heavens refers to space and the bodies within space. ive always thought that this is the way that heaven is used in taoist literature. when practicing chikung and gathering heaven qi it means to gather the qi in the universe. the planets can sometimes be refered to as angels or dieties. astral deva, planetar, solar angel. so heaven in this sense could have a symbolic meaning. the quoted post seems to be a good explanation. yah yah...that's it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted January 23, 2009 hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg Perhaps it means more than one thing. One thing it refers to is the alchemical transmutation law As Above , So Below Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted January 23, 2009 hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote? People conform to the Laws of the Earth. The Earth conforms to the Law of Heaven. Heaven conforms to the Way (Tao) The Tao conforms to its own nature. -Lao Tzu I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven". thanks meg Your Dao De Jing chapter 25 quote looks like this in all versions (including the Guodian Laozi): ren2 fa3 di4 people standard earth di4 fa3 tian1 earth standard heaven tian1 fa3 dao4 heaven standard Dao dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2 Dao standard self so Put in short: fa3 standard was the non-confucian solution to rectifying names. The confucian policy was, that the ruler, using either an innate or acquired intuition, was supposed to settle the correct language use. Shen Dao had the sociological point of view, that the ruler will influence usage. The mohists agreed with him, but maintained that tian1 heaven should be taken as the ultimate fa3 standard. Dao De Jing has four fa3 standards. tian1 heaven is involved in two of the standards. That's why there is no single answer to your question, because the answer depends on the fa3 standard used! Or put in other words: earth standard sky and heaven standard Dao. lienshan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.HenryCheesecake Posted January 23, 2009 Im not quite sure that there is any definite interpretation. As you already know this journey is yours, so define heaven as you may. Listen to many different views without prejudice, without resistance caused by your current convictions, and absorb each peice without choosing one as the answer. You will probably realize that your unrefined outlook, your initial outlook that is, was more precise than any other. Go with that deep down feeling. Use your eyes to study, but after gathering the input, do not resort to reasoning or words. It is very dificult not to contaminate those intial feelings, those feelings that are characteristic of awareness. We allow are thoughts and lodged emotions to interfere with that process of inborne truth, but do not worry, inevitably we will harness the truth, if we havent already. Well, I kinda went off the deep end here and ended up giving advice, maybe it will help, maybe it wont, but either way it will. Back to Lao: " There are ways but the way is uncharted, there are names but not nature in words" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meg Posted January 24, 2009 Im not quite sure that there is any definite interpretation. As you already know this journey is yours, so define heaven as you may. Listen to many different views without prejudice, without resistance caused by your current convictions, and absorb each peice without choosing one as the answer. You will probably realize that your unrefined outlook, your initial outlook that is, was more precise than any other. Go with that deep down feeling. Use your eyes to study, but after gathering the input, do not resort to reasoning or words. It is very dificult not to contaminate those intial feelings, those feelings that are characteristic of awareness. We allow are thoughts and lodged emotions to interfere with that process of inborne truth, but do not worry, inevitably we will harness the truth, if we havent already. Well, I kinda went off the deep end here and ended up giving advice, maybe it will help, maybe it wont, but either way it will. Back to Lao: " There are ways but the way is uncharted, there are names but not nature in words" oh i love you! (ok, a bit dramatic lol), but that is just what i needed to hear I may have posted something similar to this a while back, but I've been taught since I was little, that Jesus was It. that you had to believe in Him in order to go to heaven. So now that i am older (41), i sometimes feel, "ugh, it's just all too confusing, fine, i believe........." you know? Or i get afraid that i will be a fraud and on my death bed be scared and admit (?) that Jesus is the answer. Do you follow me? I NEED to have confidence in my inner feelings. you are so right that "it is difficult not to contaminate those initial feelings". Jesus/the new testament has many many similarities to the tao te ching. i just have a hard time swallowing the idea that you HAVE to believe "In Him"...or else. It just doesnt seem right. But i dont mind if others believe that. I just need to find a place that i am confortable with. i found taoism a long time ago, and i believe it is my Home :) Thanks (everyone) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Franky Posted January 24, 2009 I think there would be different layers of heaven. Like Tibetan Buddhism speaks of Bardos. Well, I think that that John Changs description of heaven from the book "The Magus of Java" is the most common sensical description. He mentioned a spirit, whom was haunting a house, being a muslim that was offended by the non muslim ways of it's new household. The narrator asked john how a spirit could be a muslim and john explained that the spirit wasn't ready to part with it's earthly ways yet. He later mentioned how he was meditating and was taken through different levels of heaven and hell. One of the layers of heaven had ghosts feasting on imaginary food. John also claimed that God talked to him during that meditation and told John that the purest heaven is when you come to God. God told John that he was not clean enough to go to God. Then he visited spirits in what could be a hell, which he described as a cold dark place. The spirits told john that they hurt. It frightened John and he fled those realms quickly. It's also interesting to note that pretty much every mainstream religion informs that every soul will eventually return to heaven. Even Christianity when read in Greek, which was the origional language of the New Testament. The word for Eternity in Greek actually means ages. Heaven and Hell are just purification processes to make the spirit pure for assimilaiton into the creator. They teach spirits to shed worldly connections. Actually, people probably create these layers themselves with thier addiction to form. Most people cannot understand the truly abstract. That's why god is given names and fomrs, and split into many gods. To graduate to the next level, the spirit must become aware of the illusions. As far as what determines where we go after death, I believe it's determined by a combination of karma and spiritual development. I think we actually go through the layers that we want to, on a subconscious level. The shadow (Jungian) gets what the shadow wants. Insecurities will put you through the hell bardos, whereas good intent and courage puts one through heavenly bardos. I think that most, if not all, will go through both the hells and heavens, because nobody is perfect. But this is just my oppinion based on my logic, Even if I am right, then intellectual knowledge is still just the beginning. One must truly know it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
