Your questions about Virtue

[Stigweard]

If you attended a live presentation on "Taoist Virtue", what questions would you want answered?

 

Thank you in advance for your responses.

 

[Ya Mu]

How do you know that?

 

 

just kidding...

 

 

How about, "Can you show me a way to absolutely know that virtue is important so I can realize the truth of it for myself?"

[rookie]

Well the obvious question is what is virtue from a taoist perspective, contrasted to virtue from a western perspective (assuming most listening will be westerners).

This would require something of the world view of doaism to be presented as well, I would think.

[Stigweard]

Thank you Ya Mu and Rookie, excellent questions both. I am hunting quite a few more so keep em coming

[Starjumper]

OK, I'll take a stab at this. If I was a question asking type I would wonder how to know: How can we know what is (Taoist) virtue and how can we 'do it' if good and bad are relative and ultimately there is no good or bad?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Starjumper7

[cheya]

Does Taoist "Virtue" have anything at all to do with concepts of good and bad, human morality?

 

Is it something we do/practice, something we become/achieve, some essence of what we already are that has been obscured by socialization/conditioning, or?????

 

I love what Waysun Liao says about Te:

"In the case of humans, there is a tiny piece, one identical unit force of the power of Tao. It mimics the living being of the Tao, which is also a conscious being. It is wrapped inside our life, and forms the core of human life energy. Lao Tzu called it the power of Te. Te is no longer the same as Tao, but it behaves and works very similarly to the power of Tao. When it finally blooms into the mind's activity, it radiates out all over the universe, looking to rejoin the mother power." (Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, Delux Edition glossary)

 

So another question: what has that got to do with "Virtue"?

 

(GREAT thread! When do we get the answers?)

[Stigweard]

My List of Questions:

 

What is virtue?

What is virtue from a Taoist perspective?

How do we cultivate virtue?

What is the role of virtue in the modern world?

What are the benefits of virtue?

What virtues are most important?

What is the effect of negative virtue?

Shouldn't we gave both positive and negative virtues to be balanced?

Are there any specific practices to cultivate virtue?

How long would it take to achieve virtuous fulfillment?

How does virtue contribute to the path of enlightenment?

Do we need virtue to achieve the higher arts and accomplishments of Tao?

What can we do to help create more virtue in the world?

How do we change our bad habits into positive behavior?

What are the effects of virtue. Will virtue attract more fortuity? Will it attract higher beings?

How does our virtue interact with subtle beings?

How do we maintain our virtue in discordant environments?

Does the practice of qigong dao in taiji nei tan etc enhance ones virtue?

How does qi and virtue relate?

If virtue is the emanation of our true nature how do we get in touch with our true nature? Where is the road map to reunion with our true nature?

What are the best environments to develop virtue?

Who are the best people to be around?

Should a Taoist have virtues at all?

Isn't virtue just a set of artificial morals and ethics?

Is it just about being good?

Is it aspects of your character that you want to enhance?

 

~~~

 

And from a friend:

 

Hmmm... Virtue...

 

1) What is the nature of Virtue?

2) Is virtue a good thing?

3) Is Virtue something external to us?

4) To be virtuous, must we let go of other aspects of our lives?

5) How do I emulate virtue in my life?

 

~~~

 

Feel free to add more questions ... or even try and answer a few if you want

[Ya Mu]

Stig,

 

We have inquiring minds; do you plan on posting your answers to those questions? I really like these:

:

What are the effects of virtue. Will virtue attract more fortuity? Will it attract higher beings?

How does our virtue interact with subtle beings?

Edited January 20, 2009 by Ya Mu

[Unconditioned]

What is the cause of Virtue?

Can one be virtuous without effort?

Can one strive for virtue and still remain in humility?

What is the motivation in us to be virtuous?

What is the motivation in us to 'run' from virtue?

Can virtue be objective?

[zanshin]

What's the role of guilt?

What is the virtuous response to lack of virtue in others?

 

would like to hear the answers also.

[Stigweard]

Cheers for the questions, I really appreciate it

 

Yes I do plan to answer them as best I can ... what I am aiming at is to work up a spoken presentation that I could provide as a guest speaker.

 

Cheers again ... anymore questiosn?

[Wayfarer64]

Is it better to be humble and flawed or virtuous and self-rightious?

[Unconditioned]

Is it better to be humble and flawed or virtuous and self-rightious?

 

That's what I was getting at with a few of mine, but you stated it much better.

 

I think it all starts with a deep/good definition of virtue...

[mat black]

I don't see the word 'Tao' as being different or seperate from virtue. It encompasses it in essence. To practice 'the way' is to accord with virtue and abide with it.............which leads us back to the undifferentiated source.

 

The Book of Plain Words, by the Yellow-Stone Elder

Now TAO, Virtue, Benevolence, Rectitude and Decorum,--these five things are all one Principle. As regards the Way of TAO, it is the Way that all men should walk in; making use of all things, they yet know not the source from which they spring. Virtue is what all men should obtain; then everyone will have what he naturally needs. The Benevolent are such as all men love; for where there is a merciful, liberal, sympathetic disposition, there will be a systematic compliance with the mutual wants of others

~~~

Venerable Master Hsuan Hua says

"Why is it that we say that one should take the two words "Way" and "virtue" and place them beneath one's feet? It is because [the concepts represented by] the two words "Way" and "virtue" constitute the foundation of what it is to be a person. They are just like the roots possessed by a tree. If we possess the Way and virtue, then we are able to succeed in standing upon on our own two feet....."

~~~

 

My own 2 (australian) cents

I understand virtue as a way of being. Continually being aware of perfecting our conduct:

To be kind, non-selfish, honest, compassionate, sincere with all that we encounter. To attain wisdom and use it to arrive at and emanate harmony.

 

Virtue transcends time, eras and places. By that I mean tht virtue is not influenced by circumstance, rather virtue will be a catalyst that changes dischord onto peace, arguments into co-operation, fighting into peace in any time and any place.

 

Is it better to be humble and flawed or virtuous and self-rightious?

To be self-rightous would be a type of arrogance which only clouds ones wisdom, and would therefore impede virtue. I don't think they can mutually exist - just my guess anyway

Edited January 21, 2009 by mat black

[Spectrum]

ahNfhUysehk

[林愛偉]

Thank you Ya Mu and Rookie, excellent questions both. I am hunting quite a few more so keep em coming

 

 

 

 

When presented with the teachings of Virtue, people oppose it, and find all types of

reasons why its not important.

 

Yet tell them its not important and they praise you as they

would a wise sage.

 

 

Enjoy!

 

Lin

Edited January 21, 2009 by 林愛偉

[cheya]

And yet another view, from Wayson Liao, taken from his book, Nine Nights with the Taoist Master. This is native speaker Liao's direct translation of the Tao Te Ching, embedded into a teaching novel, which expands on the actual text. (Liao claims that his translation of the TTC is informed by the oral tradition, which supplies essential keys to accurate understanding.) Here is Lao Tzu expanding on TTC 38 (lines 1 &2).

Lao Tzu says:
"One who possesses the power of Great Te doesn't follow the social virtue; he therefore possesses the true power of Te. Does that puzzle you? Some people can realize that social conscience, and so-called goodness, kindness, justice, righteousness, and ritual are all merely man-made rules, not the way the eternal Tao flows. These wise ones try to shut down their sense of that which is false, and dedicate their consciousneess to the feeling of the original Te. When they succeed, they allow the Te to change back again and become restored and thus connected back to the power of Tao. These men possess Great Te. One who possesses low or no power of Great Te follows the social virtue firmly; he therefore has no true power of Te."

So for Liao, social virtue�working at being good�prevents you from developing Te!

Heresy?

cheya

PS: I tired to underline the actual TTC embed, but it didn't work. In the book, you can tell what is from Liao's spartan TTC translation, and what Liao has added in his story to clarify the meaning.

Liao's translation of TTC Ch 38, 1&2:
"One who possesses the Great Te doesn't follow the social virtue, he therefore possesses the true Te.
One who possesses low Te follows the social virtue firmly; he therefore has no Te."
 

Edited August 23, 2016 by cheya

[thelerner]

Some times you know things by there opposite. So one question might be, 'What takes you off the path?'

 

How far should a man go to be virtuous?

 

How does virtue navigate us when we are faced with decisions between two wrongs?

 

 

Michael

[Stigweard]

If there is partial or contrived virtue and true innate virtue how can we practically know the difference in real time so that we can guide ourselves further in the direction of our true nature?

 

Surely partial virtue is better than no virtue, so is partial, social or contrived virtue merely a necessary step along the way toward wholeness?

[cheya]

Hi Spectrum,
Could you post/PM the direct youtube link for the video you posted? My antiquated computer can't seem to load it from TTB.

Thanks,
 

Edited August 23, 2016 by cheya

[cheya]

Another translation of TTC, Ch 38:

When Tao is lost one must learn the rules of virtue
When virtue is lost, the rules of kindness
When kindness is lost, the rules of justice
When justice is lost, the rules of conduct

And when the high-blown rules of conduct are not followed
people are seized by the arm and it is forced on them

The rules of conduct
are just an outer show of devotion and loyalty�
quite confusing to the heart

And when men rely on these rules for guidance�
Oh, what ignorance abounds!

The great master follows his own nature
and not the trappings of life

(Tao Te Ching, The Definitive Edition,
by Jonathan Star)

 

[Unconditioned]

This is from the Tao Te Ching translated by J. Legge

 

29

 

If any one should wish to get the kingdom for himself, and to

effect this by what he does, I see that he will not succeed. The

kingdom is a spirit-like thing, and cannot be got by active doing. He

who would so win it destroys it; he who would hold it in his grasp

loses it.

 

The course and nature of things is such that

What was in front is now behind;

What warmed anon we freezing find.

Strength is of weakness oft the spoil;

The store in ruins mocks our toil.

 

Hence the sage puts away excessive effort, extravagance, and easy

indulgence.