Another proposed change to The Tao Bums

[sean]

I had some ideas for changing the registration and forum setup for membership to The Tao Bums a little and I would love some feedback.

 

Here is a loose sketch of what was on my mind for forum structure:

 

Tao Lounge

----Open Bar - Anyone, even people w/ out usernames can see this forum. Only members can post.

----Inner Cauldron - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

----Personal Practice Discussion - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

 

Basement

----Forum and Technical Support - Anyone, even people w/ out usernames can see this forum. Only members can post.

----Off Topic - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

 

The process of validation I was thinking about, was the same as that on Scott Sonnon's forum. I don't think we need to go as extreme as forcing real names, but at least we can require that, if you want access to the deeper areas of The Tao Bums, you gotta register with a valid email address, and you gotta at least say Hi to us in the Lobby and tell us a little about yourself and what your intentions are here.

 

My idea behind this is that it will help get people out of their shells that come here often but maybe are hesistant to say hello for some reason. And also it will prevent the stupid stuff that I'm sure you can imagine goes on in the back end ... multiple usernames from the same IP, dozens of logins not validated because they used a fake email address, etc., etc.

 

The process of validating existing users would have to be determined. I could turn all members that have never posted into "waiting for validation" status and send them an email to let them know about the update. Maybe there are other options...

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Sean.

[Yoda]

I don't think it makes a difference to us users, if it makes your life easier as a webmaster do it. I thought the sign in at Scott's forum was hokey.

 

-Yoda

[Cameron]

Pay no mind to Master Yoda!! He was a hippie!! A Goddamn tree huggin' acid trippin' fun lovin' Georgia hippie!!

 

Implement the changes Sean! We need CONTROL!!

 

seriously whatever the consensus it's all good

[Trunk]

I don't like the idea of adding new forum section/s. It confuses me. The fewer places to look, the better, imo. In this case, the only difference between "Open Bar" and "Inner Cauldron" is the level of user that can see/post-in the areas. There's no real difference of meaning of the sort of posts I might look for in those areas... so it seems like duplicate areas in that sense, and would just confuse me. ("where do I look?, where do I look?.. gosh, one more place i gotta look")

 

I think the intent of validating users is good, though. Maybe there are ways that you can do that without creating extra forums?

 

Tao Lounge

----Open Bar - Anyone, even people w/ out usernames can see this forum. Only members can post.

----Inner Cauldron - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

----Personal Practice Discussion - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

 

Basement

----Forum and Technical Support - Anyone, even people w/ out usernames can see this forum. Only members can post.

----Off Topic - Only validated, logged in members can see and post in this forum.

[BobD]

Whatever works is fine by me (yup, I'm still here, vaguely wandering around in the background!)

 

But how great is the problem of multiple user names, fake emails etc (just out of interest)?

 

As Yoda says anything that makes your life easy has got to be OK, especially if it doesn't make ours harder.

 

Multiple forums won't make too much of a difference as long as View New Posts catches them all, which it would.

 

My idea behind this is that it will help get people out of their shells that come here often but maybe are hesistant to say hello for some reason.

Not convinced this would work though. They might just read what they could and stay lurking (not that I can say anything about that at the moment )

[sean]

Yoda, you mean the whole Welcome Mat thing you found hokey? I thought it was a good idea to get people involved right out of the gate. I mean, we have 66 members here who have never posted. These people could have great insights and stories if we just asked .. if members were required to post introductions and say "Hey I'm taichidude and I'm XYZ town and I train with this form and I'm into this and that ..." we would know we had a tai chi player from XYZ town on the site to shoot the shit with, ask questions, etc.

 

Cam -

 

Trunk, you know about View New Posts, Right? Up at your top right, next to "My Controls" ... I don't really navigate the forum any other way. Shows you all the latest topics and topics with new posts. And after you pull up that page, at the bottom of the list on the right you can alter the time frame and "Get active topics for" the last week, two weeks, months, etc. Indispensable feature.

 

The distinction between Open Bar and Inner Cauldron is that Open Bar would basically just be for required Introduction posts and the discussions (ie: us saying Hi and welcoming new user, etc.) these introductions might generate. I could call it The Lobby or something ... and then in the description clarify that it's realy just for ice breakers. I think you might underestimate how shy some people can be about starting a new topic in a Forum that is designated for a specific type of discussion (ie: Taoist Discussion) just to introduce themselves.

 

BobD - nice to see you around man! I'm not sure how many fake emails/users there reallly are. I just turned on email verification for new members recently and right now there are about five or six that I can confirm are fake. It's only a part of my reasoning though, mainly the above points to Yoda about getting people involved, discussions moving, wine flowing, etc. are what I'm interested in.

 

Sean.

[BobD]

BobD - nice to see you around man!

Thanks! Its been (and still is) a very busy time of year me right now, but I do plan to find some more free time (from somewhere!). I'm always lurking though!

 

I'm not sure how many fake emails/users there reallly are. I just turned on email verification for new members recently and right now there are about five or six that I can confirm are fake. It's only a part of my reasoning though, mainly the above points to Yoda about getting people involved, discussions moving, wine flowing, etc. are what I'm interested in.

Fake emails can be for (at least) two reasons. One is so that you can flame and flood away without fear, and the other is just privacy. Even believing a site wont abuse your email, you can still rather not give away your email address.

 

I'm also not sure that this is a way to get people to post. I think that encouraging them to post by someother means is better than hiding things from them untill they do. Its a friendly place here, but I can still see why people may not want to join in. We have many people who are fairly advanced in many ways, and so others might feel intimidated and not want to post. I don't know though really. Its perhaps the more Off Topic posts that might attract new posters, as these posts may show the more friendly, less focussed, less "experience required" kind of interests/areas/lifestyles. (I'm thinking out loud here, so this is all probably tosh!).

 

Perhaps the glossary that has been mentioned elsewhere would help too, as a way of introducing stuff.

 

In many ways this is hard to do without knowing who these non-posters are. Are they people with a passing interest looking for a bit of friendly advice, or pointers, or are they higher level practitioners looking for somewhere to hang out? Without knowing, its hard to know what would attract them in more.

 

Perhaps making it so that it is possible to post anonymously might help. People could then post knowing that they wont look foolish as no-one will know it was them.

 

Perhaps add a new forum that asks for these non-posters to post why they havent posted (again anonymously) would give us some clues.

 

Its a tricky topic. I don't think its worth changing the forum structure unless we are fairly sure that it will encourage people to join in (which I am all in favour of), but we cant be sure until it does (or doesn't). But, as I say, from my point of view, it matters little, as I just use View New Posts.

 

Cheers

[sean]

Thanks! Its been (and still is) a very busy time of year me right now, but I do plan to find some more free time (from somewhere!). I'm always lurking though!

No sweat man. Yeah we all go through busy/lurk periods, it's all good.

 

Fake emails can be for (at least) two reasons. One is so that you can flame and flood away without fear, and the other is just privacy. Even believing a site wont abuse your email, you can still rather not give away your email address.

Good points. What I used to do (before I found the best webmail in the world - Gmail) was to have separate email addresses, one for more public registrations where I was concerned they might abuse my email or that they might make it available to spammers, etc.

 

Your other points are well taken. One thing is that I definitely don't want to turn on anonymous posting. That is just literally asking for trouble. Just check out HT and taobum ... people posting in other people's names, etc. etc.

 

Also, my intention is no so much about hiding the other sections, although being given access to these sections does provide a little extra motivation for a member to say hello, it's just a little courtesy to be a part of the club ... say a brief hello and tell us a tiny bit about yourself so we can "meet" you. Then you can lurk all you want after that. It won't even really prevent determined multiple-persona holders because they could just register under different email addresses at different IP's and say hello as different people. And hell, if they are that bored and get that much excitement out of it, go for it.

 

Perhaps the glossary that has been mentioned elsewhere would help too, as a way of introducing stuff.

Definitely on the to do list. I know I've been slacking with a lot of stuff. I've been stuck on some technical details of the shop I've been trying to get live.

 

In many ways this is hard to do without knowing who these non-posters are. Are they people with a passing interest looking for a bit of friendly advice, or pointers, or are they higher level practitioners looking for somewhere to hang out? Without knowing, its hard to know what would attract them in more.

Well I'd write all users with 0 posts and ask them to say Hi to get membership. Then we'd find out.

 

Its a tricky topic. I don't think its worth changing the forum structure unless we are fairly sure that it will encourage people to join in (which I am all in favour of), but we cant be sure until it does (or doesn't). But, as I say, from my point of view, it matters little, as I just use View New Posts.

How about we try it out for a few or two and see what happens? Is anyone violently against giving it a test run?

 

 

Sean.

[BobD]

Good points. What I used to do (before I found the best webmail in the world - Gmail)  was to have separate email addresses, one for more public registrations where I was concerned they might abuse my email or that they might make it available to spammers, etc.

I have to admit, when it doesn't really need an email but asks for one anyway, I do make up false ones (eg on product registrations, where I know all I'm going to get is sales emails)

 

Your other points are well taken. One thing is that I definitely don't want to turn on anonymous posting. That is just literally asking for trouble. Just check out HT and taobum ... people posting in other people's names, etc. etc.

Oh yeah, good point . I was just thinking of allowing it for well-behaved people

 

Definitely on the to do list. I know I've been slacking with a lot of stuff. I've been stuck on some technical details of the shop I've been trying to get live.

If there is any help I can give, let me know (can always find time to try to help out!)

 

Well I'd write all users with 0 posts and ask them to say Hi to get membership. Then we'd find out.

How about we try it out for a few or two and see what happens? Is anyone violently against giving it a test run? 

Fine by me, I can always just point the finger at someone else, and say "it was their idea"!

[thelerner]

I dont like the whole Inner Sanctum idea. IMHO it makes us look too secretive and exclusive. If people have anything to say in sort of confidence we can PM or write people in there Personal Area.

 

But I'll got w/ the flow, could be some advantages.

 

Michael

[DaoWaDiddy]

My idea behind this is that it will help get people out of their shells that come here often but maybe are hesistant to say hello for some reason. And also it will prevent the stupid stuff that I'm sure you can imagine goes on in the back end ... multiple usernames from the same IP, dozens of logins not validated because they used a fake email address, etc., etc.

 

Sean,

 

I'm not sure that I agree with the proposed structure - I think that keeping unregistered people from reading the "Inner Cauldron" will be counter-productive for having new people register and post. I think this is especially the case if the "Open Bar" or lobby is used just for intros and welcom messages

 

If as a new user I can't see the forum where the meat of the site is located, what would entice me to go through the effort of a registration and an intro? I lurked around for a few months before actually posting something and might not have bothered without getting the flavor of the site through following what people had to say and having a sense of what they were up to.

 

What other enticements would work for getting people to post?

 

My two cents -

 

Charlie

[sean]

Hey, I hear your guys' points and I've been mulling them over a lot today. I kind of just want to try this out for an experiment and see how it works but please keep the honest feedback coming, I am chewing on it all seriously.

 

I think there are pros and cons to both sides. Right now if you were to join this forum you would see a list of all the forums/subforums but would not be able to read any posts until you made just one single post in the Lobby saying "hi" or whatever and then you would get full access right away. It's a fairly modest request and it's less about creating an "inner sanctum" as just requesting a courtesy nod. Many many forums online, including many spiritually oriented forums, have even harder requirements than this (and for reason) and I personally have not been deterred from joining for it. In fact it almost makes a forum seem more sincere to me that there are established guidelines for membership instead of just a complete free for all. RMAX for instance requires introductions with full real names and the quality of posts there is not only very very high, but I've never seen a single flame.

 

IMO much good can come out of what can at first seem like imposing structure whereas complete anarchy, which I don't really think is being suggested, can often degenerate to least common demominator unfortunately.

 

So far I think the experiment is going well. We've gotten to see a few introductions from really cool members here that may have put off posting indefinitely, as well as learning a lot more about existing active members from the great bios they've volunteered.

 

On the other hand I think there is definitely an argument that there will be less motivation to join this forum without the ability to preview it's contents first. And also frankly I just feel kind of bad about the requirement in a way. It's conflicting with my determined laid-back lifestyle and I feel like I am making people jump through hoops or something.

 

It's all kind of a catch-22. What is the motivation to say Hi or even register if you don't need to? When the chaos with "Ron" broke out a few weeks back I temporarily made it so that new users had to be approved by me for about 4 or 5 days. But by accident I misconfigured the settings so that Guests (users not logged in) could not browse the forum anymore. I think there were like 20 something new registrations in those 5 days. People used to surfing without logging in finally decided to join because they had to. But back to the catch-22 again, would those users have registered if they hadn't seen the quality of discussion first?

 

As an aside I want to interject that I'm not really all about pumping up the numbers for their own sake or forcing members that would rather lurk to become active. I am not trying to scheme ways to more effectively "market" The Tao Bums. As I've stated before, one of my main intentions here, and one that I happily feel is finally building a bit of momentum, is in creating a relatively safe place to discuss the deeper, sometimes sensitive and personal issues that arise from a serious committment to a spiritual path. IMO, almost by definition this kind of work is somewhat "inner circle" in that you are not necessarily going to share your jing retention issues with your local butcher. A group like ours especially comes together for a fairly specific purpose and to me at least, it's comforting to feel that everyone here has at least said hey to the group and affirmed that their intention is relatively aligned with it's core.

 

Personally I would argue that anyone who stumbled across The Tao Bums forum here and saw the list of forums and their descriptions and did not just leap at the opportunity to say Hi to have at least a window into the discussions occuring here would probably never have joined to begin with. But I've had a few beers (hey! it's Friday ) and maybe that is just my temporarily inflated opinion of what we are doing here.

 

There are various compromises though. For example, configuring it so that anyone can read all the posts here but you can only reply or start new posts after you've posted an introduction. And there could be other subtleties, like for example, configuring it so you can only read/reply in Personal Practice Discussion after you've posted an introduction.

 

Final point, just for the record, I've currently configured it so that even though Guests can't read posts, Google spiders can and have full membership to index the site. So people using Google to search for various keywords can still find this site through the contents of our posts. They will just have to register to read the whole post/thread.

 

Time for bed, but like I said keep the honest feedback flowing and I think we can come up with something creative that is win/win.

 

Sean.

[TwoTrees]

I think that letting all read the board but disallowing replies until they do the 'hello at the open bar' is done first...you could even direct them to that page when they click reply without being logged on...just a thought

 

two pieces, but it'll do...

[sean]

I thought about this much more over the weekend, mulling over the feedback and I made some changes:

 

Guests and Members without introductions can read the whole board except for Personal Practice Discussion.

 

Only Members with an introduction can post/reply and see/read all the forums including Personal Practice Discussion.

 

Feedback still welcome as always ....

 

Sean.

[DaoWaDiddy]

I thought about this much more over the weekend, mulling over the feedback and I made some changes:

 

Guests and Members without introductions can read the whole board except for Personal Practice Discussion.

 

Only Members with an introduction can post/reply and see/read all the forums including Personal Practice Discussion.

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Sean,

 

Thanks for the work that you do on TaoBums and for the thought that you put into improving the site. I appreciate the collaborative process that you are using during this continued evolution.

 

I think the most recent changes hit just the right balance in giving new visitors/lurkers a chance to taste the meal so that they'll want to come into the restaurant and join the party -- it will make them more willing to pay the cover.

 

All the best,

Charlie

[thelerner]

I ditto Daowaoditty Experimentation is good.

 

 

Michael

[sean]

Thanks guys, yeah I feel a lot better about the most recent change/relaxation of the setup. As much as it made sense to me in my head the first way, my gut just couldn't rest with things being so locked down. I think this setup strikes a nice balance.

[thelerner]

I was thinking of starting a discussion topic on Children. A number of us have kids. I wonder where the best place would be. Off Topic or a special place in Personal Discussion?

 

What do you think?

 

Michael

[sean]

Sorry for the delay there Michael. I say trust your judgement. I do. Just put it where you think it fits. If it's about having children and a family and being on a path and you want to generate a public discussion definitely stick it in Taoist Discussion. If it's more of a personal reflection you'd rather just keep in your journal, stick it there. If it's like "Hey does anyone know of a good christmas present to buy my 14 year old?" probably Off Topic.

 

Cheers,

Sean.

[thelerner]

Here's a wild and crazy idea. What about a collaborative book effort here. The subject that gets the longest and most interesting threads is lets face it sex.

 

I wonder if we (collectively) would be able to create The Taobums manual on sex, w/ sections on retention, romance, refraction etc. Anything that starts with the letter R would be fair game. (just kidding, other letters welcome).

 

Anyone would be able to edit it. At some point we would need a final editor. What do you think? Should we put it up for a vote as a poll?

 

If it worked (a big if) we could start ones on active meditations, esoteric practices etc. Then let them free as e-books.

 

 

Michael

[thelerner]

Here's a wild and crazy idea. What about a collaborative book effort here. The subject that gets the longest and most interesting threads is lets face it sex.

 

I wonder if we (collectively) would be able to create The Taobums manual on sex, w/ sections on retention, romance, refraction etc. Anything that starts with the letter R would be fair game. (just kidding, other letters welcome).

 

Anyone would be able to edit it. At some point we would need a final editor. What do you think? Should we put it up for a vote as a poll?

 

If it worked (a big if) we could start ones on active meditations, esoteric practices etc. Then let them free as e-books.

 

 

Michael

[TwoTrees]

That's a pretty awesome idea there, buddy.

[sean]

It's an awesome idea. I've been chewing on how to implement it from a technical perspective since the site's inception. A Wiki approach might be a good idea. But not entirely open to anyone to edit/delete. More like with a core team of articulate, dedicated volunteers.

[DaoWaDiddy]

It's an awesome idea. I've been chewing on how to implement it from a technical perspective since the site's inception. A Wiki approach might be a good idea. But not entirely open to anyone to edit/delete. More like with a core team of articulate, dedicated volunteers.

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Given moderately recent history, I understand your concern.

 

Maybe some type of versioning is the answer - think open source software. Anyone can post a modified version of the software, but unless the core team approves of it the mod never makes the main line.

 

Along that same line, we may want to use a copyleft rather than a copyright on the resulting book. Or, we may not.

 

I just think it will be useful to discuss some of this stuff and come to a common understanding rather than have it bite us on the ass later.

 

Charlie

[thelerner]

We probably have about 30 or 40 pages right now. If we could ever intelligently edit all the various posts. One unusual technique might be throwing spaghetti style of journalism. Throw the best linked posts together, then slowly let people edit and add to them intelligently.

 

It is to bad we need security from pranksters on it, but we probably would.

 

Michael