What happens if you die?

[ToL]

Thank you orb for the correction, that was very interesting.

[Magda]

Now, let me explain briefly from as much a taoist perspective I know (frankly isn't all the extensive).

 

Tao is the way, it is the Truth, it is the driving force that moves everything, it is life, consciousness, etc. It is the everything that there is therefor it is not an individual/separate thing - it is nothing... so it is everything and nothing.

 

Your idea of a self, a personality, an 'image' is just that - an image. Everything you see, taste, touch, all your emotions, your level of energy, etc. create an imprint in your memory. Over time this accumulation you label 'me' or 'self' (when you're very young). All your thoughts are based off your past thoughts. So "you are what you eat".

 

Sounds very alike to buddhism.

 

Once we see what the self really is then we realize that it's not whole, complete, it's fragmented reality, it's tinted by our likes and dislikes, etc. When we realize that, then we see that those things are only partial reality but we are not apart from it. It is what it is. Soooo when those things die, the memories, the body, the bones, what was lost? Nothing. If nothing is lost then it is immortal, ever moving, everything keeps on being everything.

I'm afraid that you're speaking from the perspective of the whole reality. For reality it doesn't matter that it's fragmented or that some fragments die. This reality doesn't die, it's immortal. But we're the fragments, we die, so for us it would be wrong to say that we're immortal...

 

I understand your idea that we can somehow "become one" with this reality and gain immortality. But until that happens, we're mortal!

 

Here's the problem: by me telling you that, I've added a memory and pointed you in a certain direction. To really grasp what immortality is, you have to dig for yourself rather than take my idea and turn it into a belief.

I'm not that gullible, so please don't worry

 

Buddhism only focuses on other planes as it relates to this one though. It has no concept of life, death and rebirth in the astral or causal planes

Does taoism talk about astral or causal planes, what does it say about them?

never talks about ascension because enlightenment is all it takes to trascend the karma of the physical body.

What is ascension?

 

 

From what I've gathered your self (i.e. for me Mal) finishes with the death of the physical body. [full stop] haha Whatever you actually are continues on as it always has. Again from what I've gathered "Taoist immortality" offers a way for the "self" (i.e. Mal) to live longer either physically or spiritually. Which must be a misunderstanding on my part as you come to realise that that self is just an illusion.....

 

A confusing but good topic.

The question is, how does this "whatever you actually are" continue on? Does it reincarnate, does it merge with the Tao, or does it dissolve with time and die once and for all?..

 

About taoist immortality... I heard about "the immortal embryo" that you can make grow up, but don't know much anything else. What are the technicalities? Is this embryo you? Will it survive death while you die, or you both survive?

 

P.S. Thanx for pointing me to that other thread

 

 

 

In Taoism, life and death are merely two aspects of reality, the unchanging Tao. Death is simply a transformation from being to non-being; from yang to yin.

Thank you. I think these quotes deal with death from the point of view of the universe and not people... of Tao, as you say. Not from ours!

 

The question is, why would taoism adopt the point of view of Tao... Maybe it's done so that taoists wouldn't resist an idea of death, as death is natural and to resist it is to resist the natural order of things. So I'm afraid that these quotes don't talk about what happens after death or about immortality, their goal is different, not to show you that what happens, but to show you that resisting death isn't natural.

[mwight]

I remember reading that Gurdjieff said that alot of religions talk about coming back again and again untill you have a good karma, but he said something about you need to create something to survive after death, and that most of the people who die, their (soul?) becomes food for the moon. (any insights about that?)

Those who know Gurdjieff better, please correct if it's wrong.

 

I've had many series of nightmares where I see people die and their soul is half conscious and retarded like an undeveloped child, just wandering around not aware, just like the dream mind being thrust into the real world. I see these souls picked up and devoured by other beings. Not sure if these are just nightmares but I hope so.

[Ya Mu]

This book by Michael Newton has information that corresponds to what I have experientially learned in my Taoist cultivation of raising the energy body's vibrational frequency. I explain some of this in my book but he has case studies that are extremely interesting. He does not express any of this in Taoist terms. Neither do I. I suggest searching for the truth and not limit oneself to any particular tradition. Truth is truth and it doesn't matter where it comes from. Any tradition can have illusions as well as truth. The only way I know of to discern the difference between truth and illusion is to burn through our filters by raising the energy body's vibrational rate.

[Magda]

Books/texts/articles/theories - all this is going to provide you is knowledge, you might be able to get a PHD or smth and become a philosopher at most. If you really want to "KNOW" then you need to "BE" - you need practice and experience and both your questions about imortality and yin/yang will be answered. For that you need a real teacher that has been "THERE" and knows how to take you there. (and frankly - good luck in finding one :/ ).

You slightly contradict yourself First you say that books and texts are of no use because practice is required to understand, but then you say that for practice a teacher is needed! A teacher is a source of knowledge, just like books or texts. Of course it's better to have a teacher than texts, but their function is the same, to explain you what the practice is all about.

 

I agree with you that theoretical knowledge is useless, but practice without any inkling about what you're doing and why is equally useless. If somebody laconically says, stare at the wall for 30 minutes every day and you won't die, it wouldn't be helpful. First you have to learn more about why you won't die if you stare at the wall, to understand some underlying philosophy behind it, otherwise you'll give up pretty soon or your efforts will always be half-hearted. Then you need to understand how to make sure that you stare correctly, otherwise your efforts won't bring the correct result. If there's no teacher, then texts can help you. Otherwise you'll try to fill in the gaps in knowledge with your own subjective ideas and there's not much chance that you'll get any correct result after that.

[Magda]

This book by Michael Newton has information that corresponds to what I have experientially learned in my Taoist cultivation of raising the energy body's vibrational frequency. I explain some of this in my book but he has case studies that are extremely interesting. He does not express any of this in Taoist terms. Neither do I.

I'll see if I can find these books in my country. Newton's name sounds familiar, I'm sure that it was translated.

 

I suggest searching for the truth and not limit oneself to any particular tradition. Truth is truth and it doesn't matter where it comes from. Any tradition can have illusions as well as truth.

This is fitting for somebody whose quest is search for truth I have no curiosity about truth, however, I only search for a working method to survive death. Theoretical search is of no use in this case, you need to look for a method in traditions that claim it as a real possibility and understand what exactly makes it possible in those traditions.

[teopakees]

It sounds like you want to know if,when you die,you retain your individual identity. To be individual there must be other that defines and distinguishes;constructs(noun). From what I (alas,individual again) understand to be immortal is to be one with no-thingness (from my perspective and exposure-- ein sof) and not individual.

Shalom Shabbat, Bob

[Ya Mu]

.. I have no curiosity about truth, however, I only search for a working method to survive death. Theoretical search is of no use in this case, you need to look for a method in traditions that claim it as a real possibility and understand what exactly makes it possible in those traditions.

 

But if you have not a way of recognition of the truth (not saying you personally do or don't), how are you going to know which of the things you find are accurate? By reasoning? I don't think the brain is capable, as the brain is linear and confined to this body/lifetime. But the energy body isn't. So, my opinion is to raise the energy body vibration rate through practice, and burn through the filters of illusion, is the only way to recognize that truth when you find it.

 

 

.. A teacher is a source of knowledge, just like books or texts. Of course it's better to have a teacher than texts, but their function is the same, to explain you what the practice is all about.

 

True with many teaching methods. But not true with all teaching methods. Some teachers, I am one, teach trough the linage art of energy projection to vibrationally imprint information gained through the entire lineage to the student (I have no idea how many books a student would have to read in order to access this same information, but really don't think it is even possible). The student then has to practice and raise his vibrational rate in order to access this information. This information gives the student a way of knowing. But the student STILL has to practice and cultivate his energy body in order to maintain this access.

[asanjuan2008]

After death, you (or at least the info about you) still exists in the Tao ;-)

 

http://www.blueboard.com/quantum/index.htm#death

[Magda]

But if you have not a way of recognition of the truth (not saying you personally do or don't), how are you going to know which of the things you find are accurate? By reasoning?

 

Yes, you're right, I can't recognize truth. This is why I said that I'm interested only in traditions that claim immortality as actual possibility and not in a general theoretical search. If a tradition claims that its adherents did achieve immortality, there's a chance that this tradition holds truth and a working method. It makes more sense to pay attention to it, rather than trying to find truth among those whose knowledge is theoretical and was not ever proven to work.

 

Of course, it's possible that a tradition is false and lies about achievements of its adherents. But traditions that make claims are a better source than general guessing anyway. There's a chance that achievements of its adherents were real and knowledge proven, whereas general guesses were never proven... Last but not least, to invent a working method from a few guesses would be quite an enormous feat for one life-time, while traditions already offer methods.

 

So, my opinion is to raise the energy body vibration rate through practice, and burn through the filters of illusion, is the only way to recognize that truth when you find it.

For that you first need to know how to raise the energy body vibration rate Some preliminary knowledge is needed again... You need to believe that certain practice would raise your energy body vibration rate, and you need to believe that it's going to make you able to discern truth, too. It isn't instantly obvious why this is so. You need some understanding first.

 

Apart from that, there are many traditions, not just one. In order to choose one, you have to have some general knowledge about what it is that they offer and what their differences are.

 

Maybe I'll make myself more understandable if I say that I practiced a variety of things and drew a conclusion that such practice has a very little chance of being successful. The primary obstacle is that you never know what conclusions to make about your practice, whatever you think can very well prove to be wrong. Even in your example with energy vibration rate, you first need to be sure that it's actually higher and that it is the reason for your new understanding. But how can you be sure in something so subtle and hard to judge on your own for sure?

 

Some teachers, I am one, teach trough the linage art of energy projection to vibrationally imprint information gained through the entire lineage to the student (I have no idea how many books a student would have to read in order to access this same information, but really don't think it is even possible). The student then has to practice and raise his vibrational rate in order to access this information. This information gives the student a way of knowing. But the student STILL has to practice and cultivate his energy body in order to maintain this access.

Oh no, I didn't say that if you have information you can get everything without applying any effort!!! . That's too easy and even a little childish to assume that it's possible. I just doubt that you can achieve anything if you start out with general guesses. Maybe you can if you're enlightened or otherwise different from all others, but how many people are like that?

[Ya Mu]

...

For that you first need to know how to raise the energy body vibration rate Some preliminary knowledge is needed again... You need to believe that certain practice would raise your energy body vibration rate, and you need to believe that it's going to make you able to discern truth, too. It isn't instantly obvious why this is so.

 

Even in your example with energy vibration rate, you first need to be sure that it's actually higher and that it is the reason for your new understanding. But how can you be sure in something so subtle and hard to judge on your own for sure?...

 

 

AS you say, it IS difficult to know. What I have found, for both my students and myself, is that through the practice AND the energy transmission real KNOWING does occur. But of course that doesn't mean something a person thought was true remains true, that's what burning through the filters does. Truth remains truth and illusion drops.

And, as you say, traditions are certainly a better place to start than WAG (Wild A** Guessing). But remember that traditions containing truth often pass on illusion as well and it is up to the individual practitioner to practice LISTENING and discernment. And I say that brain oriented reasoning cannot give us that true discernment. Only energetic LISTENING can. And one cannot practice energetic LISTENING without the energetic cultivation practice.

 

You need to believe that certain practice would raise your energy body vibration rate, and you need to believe that it's going to make you able to discern truth, too

This is really the only statement I disagree with. Probably is true for linear practices, but for non-linear practices such as the Stillness-Movement I teach, it really doesn't matter what the person believes, we bypass the linear mind and jump straight to energetics; this works even if a person has strong beliefs in lots of illusions. I don't say that said person would not have to deal with the conflict of the brain-oriented illusions, but with continued practice it is not difficult to do so. Things become self-evident.

 

You have obviously put a great deal of thought in this. Good luck on your journey.

[Magda]

This is really the only statement I disagree with. Probably is true for linear practices, but for non-linear practices such as the Stillness-Movement I teach, it really doesn't matter what the person believes, we bypass the linear mind and jump straight to energetics; this works even if a person has strong beliefs in lots of illusions. I don't say that said person would not have to deal with the conflict of the brain-oriented illusions, but with continued practice it is not difficult to do so. Things become self-evident.

I agree with what you say, and it looks like I wasn't speaking in a clear manner. I didn't mean that belief if needed for practice to work, but that it's needed for it to continue (and even to start).

 

It sounds like you want to know if,when you die,you retain your individual identity. To be individual there must be other that defines and distinguishes;constructs(noun). From what I (alas,individual again) understand to be immortal is to be one with no-thingness (from my perspective and exposure-- ein sof) and not individual.

Shalom Shabbat, Bob

Are you a kabbalist?

[orb]

You slightly contradict yourself First you say that books and texts are of no use because practice is required to understand, but then you say that for practice a teacher is needed! A teacher is a source of knowledge, just like books or texts. Of course it's better to have a teacher than texts, but their function is the same, to explain you what the practice is all about.

 

 

 

I didn't compare a teacher to a book or text - you did . The practice that I am talking about takes the practitioner to a different level. A book can't do that for you as teachings are transmitted in 3 different ways simultaneously while books resonate only in the intelectual center. There are people that believe that they can get somewhere with the help of a book. I've never met a person that achieved a good level of being after following a book, but you are welcome to try.

 

мне кажется уже стало ясно то чего вы ишите, и мои обяснении вам не помогут

[Spirit Ape]

Hi,

 

I work in Emergency Department and see people die alot! Its weird sometimes I feel that there body when dying goes through transitions some people die in pain some very quickly and there death to me is all related to 5 elements.

 

For instance lung, bowel, heart, kidneys, all people die of a certain cancers or accidents trauma to certain organs etc. Since organs relate to 5 elements in Taoism the organs also relate to certain planets maybe possible that you return to a certain planet related to the organ..... lol just throwing out ideas I dont know but its weird how its all related, maybe back to the source of Qi 6to be spat back out into another body or thing!

 

Where do we go after is the biggest question ever!!!

 

Ape

[Magda]

The practice that I am talking about takes the practitioner to a different level. A book can't do that for you as teachings are transmitted in 3 different ways simultaneously while books resonate only in the intelectual center. There are people that believe that they can get somewhere with the help of a book. I've never met a person that achieved a good level of being after following a book, but you are welcome to try.

Initially it all started because I thought that you were completely against any texts or preliminary knowledge Many people in the thread seemed to be opposed to answer in terms of taoism and offered their own opinions instead. Maybe it was my fault, I should've written something like "No opinions, taoism theory only!" in the thread's name. But frankly speaking, I assumed that everybody would think in a uniform way at a taoist forum and that such a question would be no problem.

 

мне кажется уже стало ясно то чего вы ишите, и мои обяснении вам не помогут

 

I work in Emergency Department and see people die alot!

Oh that must be terrible! But you sound as if you already got into habit of seeing people die. They say that people who often see it create a defensive mechanism against shock.

[Spirit Ape]

Its still weird, I cant handle kids dying or badly hurt though that makes me cry maybe cause im a new dad or just feel bad that these kids didnt deserve to die or get so hurt they lose limbs and stuff. Even when you watch the war on TV and see all the people suffering you would think that people would really understand how bad it is but then there is people itching to sign up for armed forces meaning that inside them they are ready to go and kill people if asked to now that is horrible.

 

Anyway seeing the oldies die isnt that bad cause they have had a long life but the grieving families and friends kind of get to me like i said espeically young kids knowing this could happen to your family.

 

REALITY CHECK working in hospitals!!!

 

Ape

[Mal]

REALITY CHECK working in hospitals!!!

 

Yes, plenty of opportunities to confront your emotion and practice compassion.

 

I'm a bit removed from the "death processes" but my partner gets to escort the bodies to and from the morgue. Really bad if they only recently came in alive in the chopper or ambulance. Also not much fun when they bring in someone who has been dead a few days before anyone realized..... its pretty hot here in Queensland

 

On a positive note our mortician is called "Frankie" and is a really cool chap to talk to. As is the hospital Priest.

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Mal,

 

Yeah, I bag and tag them ready for the family to view them also!

 

It can play with your head abit if you are not ready and I understand how some nurses are as hard as iron and not cold hearted but just hard and take alot and not give a sh!t.

 

I saw a bad death the other night but some of the nurses was so cool to watch them work and trying to either save or prepare them as they go.

 

Spirit Ape

[seadog]

Hi Mal,

 

Yeah, I bag and tag them ready for the family to view them also!

 

It can play with your head abit if you are not ready and I understand how some nurses are as hard as iron and not cold hearted but just hard and take alot and not give a sh!t.

 

I saw a bad death the other night but some of the nurses was so cool to watch them work and trying to either save or prepare them as they go.

 

Spirit Ape

Wow that sounds like a real heavy job. I reckon nurses are some of the strongest people I have ever met.

When my brother got injured in a car accident it was the nurses more then anything that kept him alive.

I have always admired how they remain calm in the thick of things and remain empathetic, despite being ridiculously underpaid and over worked.

[Spirit Ape]

They are definetly underpaid and here there is a shortage of nurses in our hospitals!~

[idquest]

They are definetly underpaid and here there is a shortage of nurses in our hospitals!~

 

A registered nurse in Canada gets $110,000 per year PLUS HUGE pension benefits. This is when a median income is somewhat 35 - 40 thou. I would say that pay is adequate comparing to other qualified jobs.

[Lightbringer]

A registered nurse in Canada gets $110,000 per year PLUS HUGE pension benefits. This is when a median income is somewhat 35 - 40 thou. I would say that pay is adequate comparing to other qualified jobs.

 

Yeah, but nurses, teachers and other professionals here have no idea how good they have it compared to their American counterparts. They like to go on strike every other week, but in reality they seem to be the metaphorical spoiled brats who always want another pony because they know they can get it from their parents. It's far less to do with underappreciation and lack of total pay.