What happens if you die?

[Magda]

I'm interested in death and immortality a lot, please enlighten me what taoism has to say about this topics!

 

If you die, then do you reincarnate or do you just die forever along with your physical body?

 

And I heard that if you practice taoism you can survive death... But what happens to you at the end of your life in that case, what happens to your physical body and where do you find yourself?

[Aetherous]

Very good questions; and I think no one actually knows the answers.

[Magda]

There must be answers or at least hints in taoist texts... Or something told on these topics by modern teachers.

[phore]

i think that the real you cant die. love

 

other than that i think most taoists suscribe to reincarnation.

 

the taoist immortal retains an energy body and lives in the astral plane until she reaches the level where she can merge with the tao. the nothing and the everything. the way

[bindo]

watch the documentary posted here yesterday by mwight; The Boy Who Lived Before.

 

He said he was big, then he fell thru a portal and he was little again.

[Bum Grasshopper]

When you die you return to the source, where you came from. Taoists do not pretend to know where this is, trusting the tao to do what is necessary to keep the universe running smoothly as it always has.

[Magda]

So opinions are different. Phore thinks that we reincarnate, Bum Grasshopper thinks that we return to the source. But judging by the fact that these opinions are different and that both persons are into taoism, these opinions must be subjective... Isn't there something in the texts or taught by teachers that could clarify taoism's take on dying?

the taoist immortal retains an energy body and lives in the astral plane until she reaches the level where she can merge with the tao. the nothing and the everything. the way

Is it in some texts or a real taoist teacher said so?

 

Well, I'm sorry to be so insistant, but I'm really interested in taoism's take on it, and as far as other opinions are concerned, they're easy to find, I even have plenty of my own, too

[Lightbringer]

Buddhism, Zen and Taoism all seem to share a view that all they must focus on and explain is that which relates to our plane. I assume they do this so that they don't distract their members from their common goal of enlightenment with esoteric knowledge of the afterlife and the nature of God. I guess they figure there are enough shiny distractions along the road already

 

Anyways, I tend to look at ancient Indian traditions for more esoteric things because their metaphysical views are fairly in line with Buddhist/Taoist/Zen ideas. Christianity has hints that they originally possessed similar knowledge thank to Jesus, but that knowledge is now only in fragments and mostly is ignored. From the Hindu perspective, after one deals with karmic issues (lessons that need to be learned that manifest as suffering) relating to this plane (the first 3 chakras) this results in enlightenment. This allows them to go on to the astral and continue their journey. When one dies in the physical plane, their spirit goes up to the astral plane as it waits for a new body (I've heard varying accounts of how long this takes, but 50-60 years seems to be an average). Then, they return and continue the back and forth until they reach enlightenment. Then they live in an astral body, die, bounce between the astral and the next higher plane (causal plane) and so it goes on until all karma is resolved in all planes.

[Unconditioned]

I'm interested in death and immortality a lot, please enlighten me what taoism has to say about this topics!

 

If you die, then do you reincarnate or do you just die forever along with your physical body?

 

And I heard that if you practice taoism you can survive death... But what happens to you at the end of your life in that case, what happens to your physical body and where do you find yourself?

 

Depends on your definition of "you", "death", and "immortality". I'm sure you'll find a lot of different responses.

 

At the end of the day, find out what/who dies and you'll find your answer.

[Magda]

Buddhism, Zen and Taoism all seem to share a view that all they must focus on and explain is that which relates to our plane.

Zen is a sect of buddhism, so we're left talking about buddhism and taoism...

 

Let me disagree with you that buddhism is focused on this plane, it has a large philosophy of dying. This philosophy is not esoteric, it's supposed to explain the premises of buddhism, like karma or dependant origination.

 

My knowledge of taoism is too superficial, from reading Tao Te Thing only. I didn't notice anything about dying there.

 

Maybe you know about taoist texts\articles\books on this topic?

[zanshin]

Whether we are immortal or not, we are immortal. I don't know about our individual conciousness or astral body, lots of traditions have ideas about that and I'm not ready to find out yet.

 

But something does go on. Most obviously through our descendants if we have them, but all actions and interactions. Like the saying about planting trees so your descendants can enjoy the shade. Going to the park and sitting under a big old tree, contemplate- the person who planted the tree may have died before you were born, over the years people took care of the tree, even kids who played under it and animals and insects had a part in the small legacy you are experiencing in present reality. Some day the tree will die too and maybe the wood will be used for something ot it might be reabsorbed into the earth and help something else grow. Our lives and everything we do makes myriad ripples in the fabric of time and space, but nothing is ever really gone, it just spreads out and flows into something else.

[Magda]

Depends on your definition of "you", "death", and "immortality". I'm sure you'll find a lot of different responses.

Well, I'm not interested in a lot of different responses, they're all subjective. I'm interested in taoist philosophy and its definitions of "you", "death", and "immortality". Can you help me find them out? Tell me what taoism's definitions are.

 

At the end of the day, find out what/who dies and you'll find your answer.

That calls for starting to practice! But what am I going to practice, if I have not the vaguest idea what this path leads to? I don't need miracles or powers, I'm interested in immortality, therefore this is what I'm trying to get information about. As it's known that taoism offers a chance to survive death, there must be some explanations about it in it!

[Unconditioned]

Well, I'm not interested in a lot of different responses, they're all subjective. I'm interested in taoist philosophy and its definitions of "you", "death", and "immortality". Can you help me find them out? Tell me what taoism's definitions are.

That calls for starting to practice! But what am I going to practice, if I have not the vaguest idea what this path leads to? I don't need miracles or powers, I'm interested in immortality, therefore this is what I'm trying to get information about. As it's known that taoism offers a chance to survive death, there must be some explanations about it in it!

 

Ok here goes:

 

You are what you eat, death of your 'self' is immortality.

 

Now, let me explain briefly from as much a taoist perspective I know (frankly isn't all the extensive).

 

Tao is the way, it is the Truth, it is the driving force that moves everything, it is life, consciousness, etc. It is the everything that there is therefor it is not an individual/separate thing - it is nothing... so it is everything and nothing.

 

Your idea of a self, a personality, an 'image' is just that - an image. Everything you see, taste, touch, all your emotions, your level of energy, etc. create an imprint in your memory. Over time this accumulation you label 'me' or 'self' (when you're very young). All your thoughts are based off your past thoughts. So "you are what you eat".

 

Once we see what the self really is then we realize that it's not whole, complete, it's fragmented reality, it's tinted by our likes and dislikes, etc. When we realize that, then we see that those things are only partial reality but we are not apart from it. It is what it is. Soooo when those things die, the memories, the body, the bones, what was lost? Nothing. If nothing is lost then it is immortal, ever moving, everything keeps on being everything.

 

Here's the problem: by me telling you that, I've added a memory and pointed you in a certain direction. To really grasp what immortality is, you have to dig for yourself rather than take my idea and turn it into a belief.

[Lightbringer]

Zen is a sect of buddhism, so we're left talking about buddhism and taoism...

 

Let me disagree with you that buddhism is focused on this plane, it has a large philosophy of dying. This philosophy is not esoteric, it's supposed to explain the premises of buddhism, like karma or dependant origination.

 

Buddhism only focuses on other planes as it relates to this one though. It has no concept of life, death and rebirth in the astral or causal planes, and never talks about ascension because enlightenment is all it takes to trascend the karma of the physical body. Also, Buddhism is like Christianity in that it has had it's history and message changed to aid political and personal ambitions. I am only referring to the knowledge of the Buddha himself, and the Buddhas that came after him, not a text. Anyone can write a book, change a book or burn a book. Reliance on such texts will give you no understanding, only more questions about the inconsistencies. Only choosing to become a Buddha, one with the Tao, will provide real insight into what's fabrication and what is universal truth.

[phore]

i think that the best way that ive heard it put is

"nothing that is real can die"

 

as for the disagreement between my view and grass hoppers

you are only subject to reincarnation until you become enlightened enough to merge with the scource or tao.

 

the goal of the reincarnation process is to attain wisdom.

 

where you reincarnate too depends on whats inside you. your emotions.

 

my view comes mainly from taoist teachers, and contemplation. I dont like pouring over ancient texts too much.

 

zen is a combination of buddhism and taoism.

 

unconditioned's second post seems dead on, if youll pardon the expression

[Mal]

Well, I'm sorry to be so insistant, but I'm really interested in taoism's take on it

 

It good to be insistent because this topic comes up a bit and it never really gets answered, at least not in a way that I really understand and not with many Taoist references. We tend to have to fall back on Buddhism. Unlike Christianity Taoism just does not seem to say anything about what happen after you die. Thanks for the good explanation Unconditioned. It helped me.

 

About the only real "Taoist quote" I remember about death is to do with grieving [looking for chang tzu] actually it's in a post on the 2nd page here http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...%20tzu&st=0 that thread is related to this topic

 

From what I've gathered your self (i.e. for me Mal) finishes with the death of the physical body. [full stop] haha Whatever you actually are continues on as it always has. Again from what I've gathered "Taoist immortality" offers a way for the "self" (i.e. Mal) to live longer either physically or spiritually. Which must be a misunderstanding on my part as you come to realise that that self is just an illusion.....

 

A confusing but good topic.

[Unconditioned]

It good to be insistent because this topic comes up a bit and it never really gets answered, at least not in a way that I really understand and not with many Taoist references. We tend to have to fall back on Buddhism. Unlike Christianity Taoism just does not seem to say anything about what happen after you die.

 

About the only real "quote" I remember about death is to do with grieving [looking for chang tzu] actually it's in a post on the 2nd page here http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...%20tzu&st=0 that thread is related to this topic

 

From what I've gathered your self (i.e. for me Mal) finishes with the death of the physical body. Whatever you actually are continues on as it always has. Again from what I've gathered "Taoist immortality" offers a way for the "self" (i.e. Mal) to life longer either physically or spiritually. Which must be a misunderstanding on my part as you come to realist that that self is just an illusion.....

 

A confusing but good topic.

 

Very well said, and honest!

 

I wonder the reason death isn't talked about as much in Taoist texts as it is others.. hmm.

[phore]

Very well said, and honest!

 

I wonder the reason death isn't talked about as much in Taoist texts as it is others.. hmm.

 

the only explanation ive seen for it not being mentioned much is that taoists focus on the now.

it seems like a shaky explanation to me.

 

i assume that a lot of different options open up depending on what youre expecting.

 

in taoism the body soul and spirit are different. I think the event we call death only affects the body. the soul and spirit are unaffected.

i guess it would be the physical body. The mind/soul and the spirit/tao.

 

 

"to the well prepared mind, death is just the next great adventure"

-albus dumbledore

[orb]

Zen is a sect of buddhism, so we're left talking about buddhism and taoism...

 

Let me disagree with you that buddhism is focused on this plane, it has a large philosophy of dying. This philosophy is not esoteric, it's supposed to explain the premises of buddhism, like karma or dependant origination.

 

My knowledge of taoism is too superficial, from reading Tao Te Thing only. I didn't notice anything about dying there.

 

Maybe you know about taoist texts\articles\books on this topic?

 

 

Books/texts/articles/theories - all this is going to provide you is knowledge, you might be able to get a PHD or smth and become a philosopher at most. If you really want to "KNOW" then you need to "BE" - you need practice and experience and both your questions about imortality and yin/yang will be answered. For that you need a real teacher that has been "THERE" and knows how to take you there. (and frankly - good luck in finding one :/ ).

 

Now about buddhism or taoism being esoteric or not here's my take on it. Make sure you make the difference between Esoteric and Exoteric. Any religion Buddhism / Taoism / Christianity / Islam etc ... have an esoteric as well as an exoteric side to it. 99 % of what you see and find is exoteric. For the esoteric part of it you have to dig and pay and sweat and sacrfice and it's very rare and very limited.

[ronp]

I'm interested in death and immortality a lot, please enlighten me what taoism has to say about this topics!

 

If you die, then do you reincarnate or do you just die forever along with your physical body?

 

And I heard that if you practice taoism you can survive death... But what happens to you at the end of your life in that case, what happens to your physical body and where do you find yourself?

 

 

Below are a couple of quotes from the Zuangzi and some commentary from Guo Xiang on the Zuangzi that will perhaps help. Not sure where the last one comes from.

 

 

ron

 

 

"The true men of old did not know what it was to love life or to hate death. They did not rejoice in birth, nor strive to put off dissolution. Unconcerned they came and unconcerned they went. That was all. They did not forget whence it was they had sprung, neither did they seek to inquire their return thither. Cheerfully they accepted life, waiting patiently for their restoration (the end). This is what is called not to lead the heart astray from Tao, and not to supplement the natural by human means. Such a one may be called a true man. Such men are free in mind and calm in demeanor." Zuang Zi

 

"Since life and death are each other's companions, why worry about them? All beings are one." Zuang Zi

 

"In Zuang Zi as interpreted by Guo Xiang (d. 312 C.E., credited with the first and most important revision of the Zhuangzi) both life and death were but different states in which all things existed. To life, life is life, but to death, life is death; to life, death is death, but to death, death is life. So whenever life or death is mentioned, people just give out different views from different viewpoints. Since life and death are both states in which all things exist, when living, one should live in composure and, when dying, one should die in composure."

 

In Taoism, life and death are merely two aspects of reality, the unchanging Tao. Death is simply a transformation from being to non-being; from yang to yin.

[Mal]

"The true men of old did not know what it was to love life or to hate death. They did not rejoice in birth, nor strive to put off dissolution. Unconcerned they came and unconcerned they went. That was all. They did not forget whence it was they had sprung, neither did they seek to inquire their return thither. Cheerfully they accepted life, waiting patiently for their restoration (the end). This is what is called not to lead the heart astray from Tao, and not to supplement the natural by human means. Such a one may be called a true man. Such men are free in mind and calm in demeanor." Zuang Zi

 

Anyone have a chapter reference? I'll post one when I find them but could take a while. As soon as I start reading Chang Tzu I'll usually go off on another tangent

[seadog]

Thank you for posting those excellent quotes ronp

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Anekantavada

[ToL]

I remember reading that Gurdjieff said that alot of religions talk about coming back again and again untill you have a good karma, but he said something about you need to create something to survive after death, and that most of the people who die, their (soul?) becomes food for the moon. (any insights about that?)

Those who know Gurdjieff better, please correct if it's wrong.

[orb]

I remember reading that Gurdjieff said that alot of religions talk about coming back again and again untill you have a good karma, but he said something about you need to create something to survive after death, and that most of the people who die, their (soul?) becomes food for the moon. (any insights about that?)

Those who know Gurdjieff better, please correct if it's wrong.

 

I've never hear Gurdjieff talk about karma that way. However about people's soul - he was saying that soul is a luxury and very rare - only a few people have it - and that's because they worked for it and built one. Once you have one then you can "FEEL" your soul and you "KNOW" something that other people don't. Also there are many levels and a lot of completely misinterpreted phenomena. Just because somebody has an out-of-body experience doesn't mean that the person has a soul - and just because somebody remembers to have lived before - doesn't mean that everybody lived before and everybody reincarnates and they just forgot about it. Also people might have an energetic/astral body - but that's not necessarily an imortal soul and it dissipates shortly after death.

It was interesting to see that Kostas refers to that condition in one of his books and talks about the people's soul like - a very weak dark shadow which doesn't retain much from the person's characteristics and seems kinda brainless. That fits G's teaching about the necessity of building a mental body , an emotional body etc...

 

Also a lot of sacred texts - are meant to be read by a certain group of people and it just cannot be applied to everybody - it's like trying to fix a car following the technical manual of a supersonic jet. However we are very naive and we assume everything, also we think that all people are the same and they are not.

 

The theory about "food for the moon" is quite different from the usual type of esoteric ideas and cannot be explained without practice.