Wuji Qigong and Wudang Hun Yuan Qigong

[Ya Mu]

Yes, makes me sick when white guys doing bad taiji or qi kung and nei gung make money off people that will be sucked into marketing.

 

As well as Chinese Guys in Business Suits calling themselves "Master"; can make you one in a weekend.

[ronp]

well bums

 

seems that this thread has taken a slightly different direction than i originally intended - which is okay by me - and gives me a chance to rant a bit.

 

as a rank beginner (only two lessons in nei kung - learning four forms) i have no particular axe to grind - since i don't have a "system" or an allegiance or belief in a certain teacher. at any rate, if i did i wouldn't see much use in defending one or denigrating another.

 

as such, my search is driven only by what i am drawn to (expression of beauty through movement within a series of forms that eventually leads to direct experience of and cultivation of chi while producing better health and overall balance). since i live much of the year in france (and don't speak the language so well yet) and i am financially limited, i am at this point going to be relatively dependent upon what little i can learn from DVD's and very little from hands on instruction.

 

after reading thousands of posts on TTB's, I got a feeling of trust from some and not from others - drawn to the opinions of some and not others. at the same time knowing that this counter point of polarities is necessary and useful in pointing me in the right direction.

 

bought the kunlun book - interesting! based on input gleaned from reading vCraigP and Hundun (only via my reading - i don't know either of them), i bought the Shamanic Tiger of Master Wu. High quality production - seems easy to follow - hopefully i can learn something. if not, i still find his presence, energy and movements beautiful to watch.

 

that said, i ask a couple of questions:

 

Craig -

 

forgetting for a moment that you have worked with Michael and know him personally and putting yourself (as much as possible) into the empty mind mindset of a noob (like me) "how would you compare the quality of the video and more importantly the quality of the teaching that comes from within this video of Michaels, to that of the Shamanic Tiger video of your other teacher Master Zhongxian Wu?"

 

Spectrum -

"Seeking "WUJI" is at the core here. That is the point. Wuji. Many forms claim wuji, but until you see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji, it's all smoke and mirrors."

keeping in mind my limitations, what or how, in your opinion is the way to "see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji?"

 

Ape and Sheng and other tao bums -

feel free to answer the above as well!

 

i appreciate that each person walks their own path and comes to their conclusions about what is best in their own way. yet i also know that without worst, there is no possibility of best. oh yeah, still looking for any input on Jiang Jian-ye and Master Bingsong. thanks also Spectrum for the links to Master Bing and to 5element and Dcup for the review of Winn.

 

be well

 

ron

[Ya Mu]

 

....

"Seeking "WUJI" is at the core here. That is the point. Wuji. Many forms claim wuji, but until you see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji, it's all smoke and mirrors."

keeping in mind my limitations, what or how, in your opinion is the way to "see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji?"

 

Ape and Sheng and other tao bums -

feel free to answer the above as well!

 

i appreciate that each person walks their own path and comes to their conclusions about what is best in their own way. yet i also know that without worst, there is no possibility of best. oh yeah, still looking for any input on Jiang Jian-ye ...

be well

 

ron

 

I think you are correct that many forms claim Wuji but until it takes you there it means not much.

I do like the wuji form that Teacher Duan passed on but I don't practice it. To me, the Stillness-Movement that I practice takes me there instantly. But here is the thing, I believe each person has to resonate with any particular form for it to be able to take them there.

As far as Jiang goes, he is a super nice guy that I really like. His forms are very good, he has produced over 300 DVD's. I have seen him demonstrate some amazing Kung Fu. I think his Kung-Fu is better than his Qigong; his Qigong is good for body enhancement.

[sheng zhen]

Spectrum -

"Seeking "WUJI" is at the core here. That is the point. Wuji. Many forms claim wuji, but until you see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji, it's all smoke and mirrors."

keeping in mind my limitations, what or how, in your opinion is the way to "see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji?"

 

Ape and Sheng and other tao bums -

feel free to answer the above as well!

I dont know exactly what Spectrum means by "psychophyiological state of wuji", but I think it is not to mean the same as meditation. Anyone can get into a meditative state, alpha levels of the the brain, slower breathing, relaxed muscle, increase of pleasure hormones, etc.

 

I dont know about the real wuji state because I dont think I have ever experienced it. I know about the meditative state, and if the high level masters and practitioners say wuji is the same as meditation, I simply wont trust them. Based on my recent level of understanding i would say wuji is the total and unlimited transcending of duality. Mind is not able to exist in such a state. Not experience either.

Edited January 30, 2009 by sheng zhen

[VCraigP]

well bums

 

seems that this thread has taken a slightly different direction than i originally intended - which is okay by me - and gives me a chance to rant a bit.

 

as a rank beginner (only two lessons in nei kung - learning four forms) i have no particular axe to grind - since i don't have a "system" or an allegiance or belief in a certain teacher. at any rate, if i did i wouldn't see much use in defending one or denigrating another.

 

as such, my search is driven only by what i am drawn to (expression of beauty through movement within a series of forms that eventually leads to direct experience of and cultivation of chi while producing better health and overall balance). since i live much of the year in france (and don't speak the language so well yet) and i am financially limited, i am at this point going to be relatively dependent upon what little i can learn from DVD's and very little from hands on instruction.

 

after reading thousands of posts on TTB's, I got a feeling of trust from some and not from others - drawn to the opinions of some and not others. at the same time knowing that this counter point of polarities is necessary and useful in pointing me in the right direction.

 

bought the kunlun book - interesting! based on input gleaned from reading vCraigP and Hundun (only via my reading - i don't know either of them), i bought the Shamanic Tiger of Master Wu. High quality production - seems easy to follow - hopefully i can learn something. if not, i still find his presence, energy and movements beautiful to watch.

 

that said, i ask a couple of questions:

 

Craig -

 

forgetting for a moment that you have worked with Michael and know him personally and putting yourself (as much as possible) into the empty mind mindset of a noob (like me) "how would you compare the quality of the video and more importantly the quality of the teaching that comes from within this video of Michaels, to that of the Shamanic Tiger video of your other teacher Master Zhongxian Wu?"

 

Spectrum -

"Seeking "WUJI" is at the core here. That is the point. Wuji. Many forms claim wuji, but until you see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji, it's all smoke and mirrors."

keeping in mind my limitations, what or how, in your opinion is the way to "see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji?"

 

Ape and Sheng and other tao bums -

feel free to answer the above as well!

 

i appreciate that each person walks their own path and comes to their conclusions about what is best in their own way. yet i also know that without worst, there is no possibility of best. oh yeah, still looking for any input on Jiang Jian-ye and Master Bingsong. thanks also Spectrum for the links to Master Bing and to 5element and Dcup for the review of Winn.

 

be well

 

ron

 

how would you compare the quality of the video and more importantly the quality of the teaching that comes from within this video of Michaels, to that of the Shamanic Tiger video of your other teacher Master Zhongxian Wu?"

 

 

Ron

 

Video quality.

OK this is easy. Master Wu's Shamanic Tiger video was produced by Dragondoor and is VERY professional, one might even say "slick". It is made in such a way as to really facilitate learning each segment seperately.

The only thing missing for me is that nowhere does Wu teach with his voice. It is a female voice over describing the moves and an intro by John Du Cane. But that is minor and Wu has a fairly strong accent so it might be difficult for some.

 

Winn's video is not so clear on the audio and not a really professional job overall. That's just the video. As far as whether you can learn the form from the video, you definitely can. That said I must add that I learned the form personally prior to seeing the vid, so I don't have the experience of learning it from the video.

 

Teaching quality.

 

First of all the Shamanic Tiger Qi gong form is totally different in almost every way from Winns Primordial Qi gong form.

The tiger is very challenging physically, and has much of the martial aspect about it. If you can approximate the stances as Master Wu does them you will certainly develop your strength and foundation. The instruction is quite detailed, and the movements are also at times fairly complex and require coordination of a fairly advanced degree. For someone who has experience in movement arts it would be easier. A complete noob to martial arts, movement arts will find it quite challenging at some points. But the DVD makes the study of the detail easy. I highly recommend getting the companion book as it goes into detail about the meaning, movement, visualization, breathing and healing function of each segment. Also EACH segment can be practiced by itself as a distinct Qi gong movement. So in fact this form is 24 pieces of Qi gong. I also highly recommend to practice the shaking which is an EXTREMELY valuable part of Master Wu's training which we always practice first before anything else (time permitting). Sometimes for 15-45 minutes!!

I love the Tiger. I plan to go to my 4th seminar on the Tiger in February to continue to work on it with Master Wu.

What comes across in the Tiger Video is powerful. I remember one of the first times I just sat and viewed the video with my wife. We both had a remarkable change of "state". Definitely shifted our consciousness. the transmission came through, for sure. (added this paragraph after thinking back a bit on first impressions)

 

Full Disclosure required. I am a "lifelong" student of Master Wu. I consider him my primary teacher since more than two years now.

 

Winn - Teaching quality.

From what I recall of the video he goes into good detail about the meaning of the movements and the details of how to perform the form. I think you will easily be able to learn it.

However, in years past he would teach this form as an adjunct to the more advanced meditation material of the Healing Tao system. One of the innovations Michael Winn brought to the Healing Tao curriculum was to find/incorporate a moving Qi gong for each part of the Healing Tao curriculum, from the most basic animal frolics to this Wuji Qi gong form. This form will stand alone nicely though. I feel as Five Element Tao does that there is real "Juice" in the form. It is one of the only forms I have returned to from my other teachers since I began to practice with Master Wu.

 

Wuji Qi gong would be easier to learn quickly.

Tiger Qi gong is very challenging, but that's a good thing.

 

In Summary Master Wu is Very close to the root. He is connected in every way that can mean. He has "IT" and he can transmit it. Even on video. Since you already have this vid I recommend to go as deep as possible into the shaking and just start doing a couple of segments at a time. THis form is made of 24 segments. THe Chinese Year is made of 24 segments. You can start now and add 1 segment every two weeks. You will go deep into it in such a way.

 

 

Good luck.

 

Craig

[Spirit Ape]

Ma Yu,

 

Do you have any clips of stillness movement!

 

Ape

 

 

You can learn anything from dvd if the information is clear and correct and brokendown basic for people to understand. I still think Winns skill is in beginners stage but you can learn the form through the dvd he offers how far you go well this is up to you and if you are doing it correctly and understand it properly

[Ya Mu]

Ma Yu,

 

Do you have any clips of stillness movement!

 

Ape

 

No.

It is a form that has to be experienced. Observing it by watching someone else has no meaning.

I may see if any of the March 21,22,23 workshop class wishes to be filmed. I think most would decline but you never know.

The Gift of the Tao (I) movement form is on DVD. I am currently working on Gift of the Tao (II).

[ronp]

Craig,

 

thanks for the in depth reply and reviews and

 

Ya Mu,

 

for the info on Master Jiang Jian-ye!

 

 

ron

[Spectrum]

I dont know exactly what Spectrum means by "psychophyiological state of wuji", but I think it is not to mean the same as meditation. Anyone can get into a meditative state, alpha levels of the the brain, slower breathing, relaxed muscle, increase of pleasure hormones, etc.

 

Psychophyiological means a state that is experienced where mind & body dualities diminish into the singularity of... who what when where why. Where mind is the body, where body is the mind. Moments like this happen when life and death are experienced in the raw moment. Sometimes people get this after their emotions move. After or during sex. Other times like after an accident. Or in Love. Doing something they love, loosing time. Standing Meditation is a good catalyst for these types of psycho-physiological states.

 

Like anything that grows into a habit, meditation included, must have "adjustments" made by a mentor in order for progress to continue to occur. This is why it's important to have people around you who care about the end result more than they care about "winning" or "losing" which is often the result in many martial arts "schools"

Anyone can get into a meditative state

 

Anyone can get into a meditative state in motion as in stillness. Consider peoples "hobbies"... this meditative state of pleasure hormone release pain/pleasure responses is what taijiquan cultivates, or fishing for that matter. As the chi flows, the dialog based mind lets go into the greater whole body mind which does not require our additional "thought" on the matters at hand... a balancing effect, a reset, a unity, alignment. A Balance of Action and Inaction.

 

Thought = Action. Even when your not in "the zone" thoughts equal action, and this is what people locked in the box call "stress"... the bodies response to internal dialog. Thought that doesn't manifest as action is wasted energy. So forget about it, it's go time. Stop talking about it and work it out.

 

Consider experiencing the same state of wuji (emptiness/nonattached readiness) in absolute motion as absolute stillness. When this unified state is experienced you have successfully translated what we learn (absorb) in stillness, into motion. This is "Taoist" Martial Healing Art. The idea that you can mutually cultivate a spirit of attack next to a spirit of peace is impossible, the ONLY reason why I draw a tension here between these two thought processes is because I believe stillness meditation is of paramount importance in understanding some of the deeper aspects of movement. These paradoxes that exist between the absolutes of stillness and motion is at the heart of Taoist Martial Health Culture. This is defensively offensive, offensively defensive. The whole world stands under a person who seeks peace in the moment.

 

keeping in mind my limitations, what or how, in your opinion is the way to "see and feel the psychophysiological state of wuji?"

 

Adjust:

 

How you breath.

What you eat.

How you move.

 

Practice WITH.

Live WITHOUT.

 

Stand until your tuned.

Move in tune.

Work with other people.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Spectrum

[Aetherous]

I just got this ebook...

 

http://www.cultivatechi.com/home/primordial.html

 

It seems more similar to actual taiji than Winn's form.

[VCraigP]

I just got this ebook...

 

http://www.cultivatechi.com/home/primordial.html

 

It seems more similar to actual taiji than Winn's form.

 

Hey Scotty.

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Does the book go over the form in sufficient detail to be able to practice?

 

Have you seen or learned Winn's version?

 

thanks

 

Craig

[Aetherous]

Hey Craig,

 

I've only seen people doing Winn's version, not the actual video of him doing it.

 

The ebook goes into detail on things that seem (at least to me) different from Winn's version. Check out these videos to see a little of this version of the form...

 

GjpfhzcVB4U

oaNpVB-wb88

 

It is enough to learn the practice from...although learning from videos or in person are much easier ways!

[VCraigP]

Hey Craig,

 

I've only seen people doing Winn's version, not the actual video of him doing it.

 

 

Thanks Brother.

 

Definitely the same form. Definitely being performed by someone with a high level of Taiji experience. Good solidity and structure IMO.

He should do a DVD so people can really get his style.

 

May well have to acquire this book. Thanks

 

Craig

[Aetherous]

You're welcome! I agree, it would be great to have a DVD of him performing it.

[Aetherous]

A fellow taobum just lent me a copy of Winn's version. It's a peaceful tape...

 

Anyway, there are quite a few details in Rubbo's version which aren't in the Winn version. Who knows how important they are, but their two versions of the same form differ quite a bit in my opinion. So despite someone knowing Winn's form, I would recommend also checking out Rubbo's ebook as well.

[Leif]

Anyway, there are quite a few details in Rubbo's version which aren't in the Winn version. Who knows how important they are, but their two versions of the same form differ quite a bit in my opinion. So despite someone knowing Winn's form, I would recommend also checking out Rubbo's ebook as well.

Michael Winn commented on at least two such changes somewhere (his forum?). From the top of my head, ending movement?, and number of repetitions of some part - which he says his teacher confirmed was actually the number of repetitions he learnt from his teacher but changed to make it easier to learn for Chinese. So if that's true in that aspects Michael WInn's form is more "original" .

 

Btw. there is also a website with free ebook

http://enlight-qigong.org/downloads.php

(just for fun: they already formed an association and you can get your teachers certificate over weekend

http://enlight-qigong.org/bea_teacher.php )

[Ulises]

Wuji Qigong performed by John P. Milton.

I think it's a good DVD for learning Wuji, excellent production, skillfully teaches the progressive steps, good explanations..

http://www.soundstrue.com/shop/T%27ai-Chi-for-Liberation/1978.productdetails

[ben]

Wuji Qi Gong is exclusively a Taoist cosmological form. A lot of Chinese martial artists died young, continual projection of fa-jing is bad for the organs, it has to be balanced out by form work and meditation.

Edited January 31, 2012 by ben

[Ulises]

Hi everyone,

I've learnt the form and am doing it morning/night, instantly in love with it.

Stunning.

I remember that somebody mentioned a recommendation to practice it 4 times a day...anyone, some feedback about this...?

many thanks!

Edited June 17, 2012 by Ulises

[Ulises]

Interesting new insights about Wu Ji Qigong...

 

http://wuji-gong.org/newteaching.php

[Ulises]

"...two approaches where in the embodied self can experience the disembodied — or the manifest self can experience the unmanifest.

 

1 – Spontaneous Qigong – Riding the Dragon, Dissolving into Light, Trance Dancing, Qi Rave

 

2 – Wuji Gong- Primordial Qigong – a Qigong form from Wu Dang Mountain, based in a time reversal counterspiral motion."

 

 

http://drjahnke.feeltheqi.com/2012/06/heaven-in-earth-primordial-qigong-3-wuji-gong-alchemy-the-practice/

Edited July 1, 2012 by Ulises

[Green Tiger]

I think you are correct that many forms claim Wuji but until it takes you there it means not much.

I do like the wuji form that Teacher Duan passed on but I don't practice it. To me, the Stillness-Movement that I practice takes me there instantly. But here is the thing, I believe each person has to resonate with any particular form for it to be able to take them there.

As far as Jiang goes, he is a super nice guy that I really like. His forms are very good, he has produced over 300 DVD's. I have seen him demonstrate some amazing Kung Fu. I think his Kung-Fu is better than his Qigong; his Qigong is good for body enhancement.

 

I was just flipping through a Tai-Chi magazine last night and saw a ton of advertisements for Jiang Jian-ye's videos. He has quite the catalog!

 

Does anyone have any videos of his that they particularly like? I was tempted to try one, but I already have a lot of DVDs I don't practice with and would love to hear some feedback before I go buying any more.

[DannyK]

I learn so much from this forum. I wanted to make a positive contribution here. I have downloaded Master Cheng Bingsong's "Wuji Gong," from Amazon. The program was very complete, and easy to follow. I have done the routine and I could feel my qi moving differently from my normal qi gong. The moves are similar to other qi gong and tai chi moves and make a lot of sense. I could see how this could be a beneficial routine. I am not by any means an authority on the above subjects but has a layman I found Master Cheng's program useful.

[tao stillness]

I would like to underscore Spirit Ape. I was considering getting Winn's Primordial Qigong based on the hype from an impressive online website. But I had my medical intuitive test the dvd before ordering it and he told me there would be very little benefit in doing it, so not to bother. The same advice for John Milton's dvd. It's not so much who is doing the form, it is that doing the form does not do much in terms of benefits, regardless of who is teaching it. If you want chi and benefits then consider the lineage of Spirit Ape where the Grandmaster is Doo Wai for Sunn Yi Gong and Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Kung. If you want to see correct form go to youtube and you will see Spirit Ape under WarriorbodyBuddhamind.com.

Edited December 15, 2014 by tao stillness

[liminal_luke]

Mileage in all of these Taoist practices is notoriously variable, but I, for one, would not be too quick to dismiss the "Primordial Qigong" form. I did it today, and, I´ll be honest, I didn´t feel that much. But when I´ve practiced daily over time the benefits sneak up on me.

 

Liminal

Edited December 16, 2014 by liminal_luke