how do you use taoism during a conflict?

[the buddha & the beast]

i think that i'm great @ practicing taoism...untill it comes to dealing with other people. can n-e-1 help me 2 understand how to use taoism in action? like, when you have a problem with how some1 is acting, you don't have time to go meditate and then come back and deal with everything. are there ways that can help me to stay in the moment and not worry about the outcome while i'm in the middle of conflict?

[minkus]

Im not great at practising taoism but ill try my best in showing you how taoism helped me in certain tensefull situations. Ill try to give some hints.

 

Keep your spirit at one place, dont get disturbed by many little things going on around you. Focus on the person or people you are in conflict with. Try to see the big picture and keep a broad mind of the general situation. Try to show empathy and try to understand the other party's points made. Prefer to listen .. talk when needed.

 

Maintain a balanced spirit and clear mind. Dont follow the other party's attitude or emotions when they are clearly agitated, dont get trapped in discussion. Keep yourself natural and mind balanced. Dont let your own ego interfere. Try to be neutral.

 

The more you are in conflictsituations the more you get experience in handling them, it takes time to learn how to behave in conflict or dangerous situations. Dont wait till you are in a dangerous situation to practice. Same rules can be practised in basic discussions.

 

Energetically sink your energy to your lower dantien, if you get really agitated and adrenalin/negative energy/stress/frustration rises up abruptly then you can capture it in the MCO as a last resort and diffuse it or atleast keep it in track before the bomb explodes and you get agressive. Avoid using any physical aggresion unless you are physically assaulted yourself. Always go back to lower dantien though, thats the place where you wonna be in a conflict .. rooted, dont let tension rise up to your head and confuse your mind.

 

Also when you think about the other party .. remember there is no other party .. the other party is the same as you and duality makes you believe the other is so diffrent from you. If you wonna look for something then dont look for diffrences but for things you have in common. Sometimes the one you think is your biggest enemy is the one that resembles you the most, its yust hard to admit.

 

Be kind, be polite: talk as you would like the other to talk to you.

 

Good luck.

[Pietro]

i think that i'm great @ practicing taoism...untill it comes to dealing with other people. can n-e-1 help me 2 understand how to use taoism in action? like, when you have a problem with how some1 is acting, you don't have time to go meditate and then come back and deal with everything. are there ways that can help me to stay in the moment and not worry about the outcome while i'm in the middle of conflict?

Read and apply the hexagram 6, Conflict

[the buddha & the beast]

Im not great at practising taoism but ill try my best in showing you how taoism helped me in certain tensefull situations. Ill try to give some hints.

 

Keep your spirit at one place, dont get disturbed by many little things going on around you. Focus on the person or people you are in conflict with. Try to see the big picture and keep a broad mind of the general situation. Try to show empathy and try to understand the other party's points made. Prefer to listen .. talk when needed.

 

Maintain a balanced spirit and clear mind. Dont follow the other party's attitude or emotions when they are clearly agitated, dont get trapped in discussion. Keep yourself natural and mind balanced. Dont let your own ego interfere. Try to be neutral.

 

The more you are in conflictsituations the more you get experience in handling them, it takes time to learn how to behave in conflict or dangerous situations. Dont wait till you are in a dangerous situation to practice. Same rules can be practised in basic discussions.

 

Energetically sink your energy to your lower dantien, if you get really agitated and adrenalin/negative energy/stress/frustration rises up abruptly then you can capture it in the MCO as a last resort and diffuse it or atleast keep it in track before the bomb explodes and you get agressive. Avoid using any physical aggresion unless you are physically assaulted yourself. Always go back to lower dantien though, thats the place where you wonna be in a conflict .. rooted, dont let tension rise up to your head and confuse your mind.

 

Also when you think about the other party .. remember there is no other party .. the other party is the same as you and duality makes you believe the other is so diffrent from you. If you wonna look for something then dont look for diffrences but for things you have in common. Sometimes the one you think is your biggest enemy is the one that resembles you the most, its yust hard to admit.

 

Be kind, be polite: talk as you would like the other to talk to you.

 

Good luck.

 

 

ok i think i understand better now. "understand the other party's points" & "don't wait till you are in a dangerous place to practice" helped a lot...well, i think it all helped a lot lol~but i guess i'll find out next time i'm in a conflict-situation, huh?

[Martial Development]

Food for thought:

Defend Yourself the Taoist Way

[Zhongyongdaoist]

[Dr. Dcup]

i think that i'm great @ practicing taoism...untill it comes to dealing with other people. can n-e-1 help me 2 understand how to use taoism in action? like, when you have a problem with how some1 is acting, you don't have time to go meditate and then come back and deal with everything. are there ways that can help me to stay in the moment and not worry about the outcome while i'm in the middle of conflict?

 

Hi,

 

You want to know how to deal with someone the way they are acting. To me "deal with" and "acting" refer to feelings/emotions from yourself and another respectively. I would look into understanding the whole process of what happens. I recommend The Healing Tao (Inner Smile, Fusion of the 5 Elements) from Mantak Chia and/or Michael Winn. Feelings/emotions are energy based, so what Minkus mentioned about being centered with your energy created from the 'situation' is right. Everyone has mentioned good advice. But you have to put the advice into practice. Why do people go to psychiatrists for so long? Not because they don't give good advice but because the person hasn't energetically delt with the feelings/emotions yet.

 

I hope this helps and you find harmony.

Regards.

[Aetherous]

You need to act like this guy:

ol2TT75gpz4&feature=related

 

In other words say something truly confusing and laugh in a crazy way.

[Mal]

[Spectrum]

ol2TT75gpz4&feature=related

 

308: right on. a train station.

 

different train stations have a different number of connections and routes.

 

good journey to you

[WhiteTiger]

But you are a great Confucian as your advice shows, please compare it to my own which follows. Most of what passes for 'Daoism' is full of Confucian principles, this is because the Chinese attitude has so internalized Confucianism that it becomes an almost unnoticed part of the whole context of the Chinese worldview. Even Daoist Master Ni gives translations of two Confucian Classics the Da Xue and the Zhong Yong (by the way, now you know the source of my Tao Bums name, some of you may have noticed it already) in his book on the Yi Jing (see below for reference), and uses such Confucian terms as sincerity and righteousness.

 

I wrote what follows before fully reading all of your own post and was surprised by the similarity, there are of course some differences, but differences if pursued in a positive manner create deeper understanding and empathy.

 

I find Daoism is not very helpful in everyday life, especially if you are coming from it solely from the perspective of Laozi and Zhuangzi. Great for Sages, great for Hermits, lousy for ordinary people, in everyday situations. The reasons for this are rather complex, but even Pietro's otherwise excellent advice, begs the question of which translation and which commentary tradition to use. More importantly a lot of the commentary tradition is Confucian in origin, and in my experience it is Confucianism that has the best approach to daily life, both for ordinary people and also for people on the path to Sagehood.

 

Maybe, but define daily life. Don't get me wrong I'm not disagreeing with you trying to add to the conversation, just to get others to think while adding my comments.

 

In Society, where people deal with lots of other people this definately has to happen and I totally agree with you. It can be different for others. Although that doesn't put aside how valuable I've come to realize Confucianism is. In fact, the principle of doing things naturally. For example lets take any practice you know of where you begin to grow, or cultivate when using the principles of Yin and Yang. If growing gradually and slowly, as if to give up the will not to force but let it happen as you are going towards the goal then definately your already following a natural way. (I mean don't get me wrong there are no absolutes. At different levels and situations there are different things can happen... every rule when applied until you outgrow it then can be broken)

 

My conclusion is this "Natural Way" has its roots in Confucian origin. While Don't Get Me Wrong here, But Confucian Should Be Valued and Practiced, Just as the Same As Buddhism and Taoism

 

Zhongyongdaoist, Can't wait until you find some time to write (if you can) about why the three schools of practice taking over power through China's History. (In the Demon Thread, or in another thread)

 

 

 

 

A Confucian approach to conflict resolution would be a combination of self-examination and empathy which would start with the two formulations of the Golden Rule, which are at the core of Confucian action, first in its negative form as Confucius states it 'do not do to others, what you do not like done to you', and then in its positive form as stated by Mencius, 'Treat others as you would be treated'. These both imply an important principle, which is; if you don't like being treated in a certain fashion then why do you think another person is going to like to be treated that way, and why do you think treatment that you would resent will help resolve issues?

 

Asking how you would like to be treated is the first step in deciding how to treat others, but there is another important point and that is empathy. You must also ask yourself how you would want to be treated and how you would not want to be treated, if the positions were exactly reversed and you were in the position of the other. This is where self-knowledge is the beginning of empathy, for in many cases you will find the answer within yourself by imagining yourself in the others position.

 

I also came to the same conclusion of the importance of practice (which I'm still trying to achieve successfully still) The practice of both to balance one. What made me realize this was from following Thread...

http://www.thetaobums.com/Enrich-Your-Life...rtue-t8520.html

 

My understanding is because Yin and Yang (Negative and Positive) must be in balance oneshould practice both, to achieve balance inside.

 

And thank you Zhongyongdaoist for being able to speak about it so much clearer and so well for others benefit.

[Taomeow]

Sun Tzu of course offers the most famous taoist approach to conflict.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the War Classic doesn't make a single peep anywhere about defense being a good strategy, an acceptable strategy, or even a poor strategy to resort to in dire circumstances. It is entirely offense/attack-oriented! The main idea is, if you've put yourself in a position where you are being attacked without your having intended this to happen, you're doing something very wrong. You do your best to avoid being attacked, it says, unless you've deliberately and secretly set yourself up to be attacked so as to trap the attacking party -- simulate weakness while being, on the contrary, fully prepared and then some. As for attacking others, in Sun Tzu's view, you avoid it only if there's the slightest possibility of losing. No suicidal attacks please. "You attack only when you've already won before you've started."

 

Difficult as hell, taoist conflict resolution strategy according to the greatest expert in history to ever have left a written account. A lot to learn... and much more difficult to learn than the "don't attack" and "defend-only" flower power ideas that have seeped into our collective mind in the guise of some "generic taoist" wisdom. Which I haven't seen even one person follow in real life, by the way... let alone in virtual life. (Yes, sarcasm counts too, incidentally... people who never attack others openly but resort to much-worked-on, honed to perfection sarcastic jabs instead are bona fide aggressors, attackers... although this particular strategy is the dumbest of them all, IMO, since it doesn't win anything for the aggressor and doesn't do much damage to his or her opponent either... a very trivial and altogether pointless pursuit, this let's-pretend-I'm-not-attacking-you kind of attack. I've seen a few veritable generals of this tactic... but I haven't seen them win much with it, not from me anyway... although if someone was abused as a kid by a parent being mercilessly sarcastic -- a less common but no less painful kind of abuse -- they might later be stuck with doing it to others as an unconscious defense mechanism... but unconscious defenses aren't the best strategies in almost any conflict... considering what Sun Tzu advocates is conscious offenses! )

 

There's been only very few instances so far when I deliberately applied Sun Tzu to conflict. It required much preparation and a lot of focused awareness and total elimination of every trace of wishful thinking. Those few instances were the ones when I did in fact instigate a conflict deliberately, fully prepared, with not a trace of doubt in my mind as to the victorious outcome. (For some reason, although it's a different source altogether and the quote talks about "man" in the sense "human," which I, generally speaking, dislike, I'm reminded of a Don Juan bit of wisdom:

"A man goes to knowledge as a man goes to war: with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge or going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and someone who makes this mistake may not live to regret it.")

Edited January 29, 2009 by Taomeow

[Spectrum]

Difficult as hell, (note: actually the easiest thing in the universe when...) taoist conflict resolution strategy according to the greatest expert in history to ever have left a written account. A lot to learn... and much more difficult to learn than the "don't attack" and "defend-only" flower power ideas that have seeped into our collective mind in the guise of some "generic taoist" wisdom. Which I haven't seen even one person follow in real life, by the way...

 

Foolish words. It's never a good idea to attack. Afterall you have to think about it. You have a lot of wordiness about what is wordless.

 

It required much preparation and a lot of focused awareness and total elimination of every trace of wishful thinking.

 

Theres your problem with application. Moments make prescriptions. Go ahead bring it up.

 

You must also ask yourself how you would want to be treated and how you would not want to be treated, if the positions were exactly reversed and you were in the position of the other.

 

This type of internal dialog is useless and full of illusions until the individual has the naked revelation of how they ripple the rings of effects around them through the cause of their consciousness. Upon this type of realization of mind soul body duality fusion communciation takes place through various screens and blinds of the mentalization of concepts that are physically right in front of us and more importantly are what we are.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Spectrum

[bakeneko]

i think that i'm great @ practicing taoism...untill it comes to dealing with other people. can n-e-1 help me 2 understand how to use taoism in action? like, when you have a problem with how some1 is acting, you don't have time to go meditate and then come back and deal with everything. are there ways that can help me to stay in the moment and not worry about the outcome while i'm in the middle of conflict?

 

While all advise will be problematic, when you are already in the midst of conflict...

Go and study Gui Gu Zi - the Master of the Ghost Valley (cool name for a complex philosopher). There is a (IMO) quite good translation by Thomas Cleary out there named "Thunder in the sky".

[Taomeow]

Foolish words. It's never a good idea to attack. Afterall you have to think about it. You have a lot of wordiness about what is wordless.

Theres your problem with application. Moments make prescriptions. Go ahead bring it up.

This type of internal dialog is useless and full of illusions until the individual has the naked revelation of how they ripple the rings of effects around them through the cause of their consciousness. Upon this type of realization of mind soul body duality fusion communciation takes place through various screens and blinds of the mentalization of concepts that are physically right in front of us and more importantly are what we are.

Spectrum, are you conducting an experiment to see if I'll apply Sun Tzu under attack?

 

"Foolish words" is an attack. Followed by "It's never a good idea to attack," it's a joke, right?

 

When King Wen and his son the Duke of Zhou, authors of the I Ching, attacked the tyrant of Shang, killing him and establishing a new dynasty, someone who was shocked by these developments asked, "You killed a king?" The response was, "we demoted a tyrant." Shang's rule was marked by extraordinary cruelty toward his people, many of whom starved to death or were executed for the slightest offense or for no reason other than the tyrant wanted their property. In the eyes of the I Ching authors, this behavior had taken the "mandate of Heaven" away from the king and they weren't committing a crime, they were in fact reinstalling the divine -- via violence because there was no other way. Confucius the peacenik approved!

 

Anyway... you illustrated my very point beautifully, thank you!

Edited January 29, 2009 by Taomeow

[rain]

i dont

- use

 

it does not

- appeal

Edited January 29, 2009 by rain

[Spectrum]

I'll speak to you about it while your trying to hurt me.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Spectrum

[Mal]

It's never a good idea to attack. Afterall you have to think about it.

 

hehe Reminds me of the classic gunslinger showdown at midday in the middle of town. I always though it was just a movie trick when the good guy waits for the bad guy to go for his gun, and then outdraws him.

 

But it actually is faster to respond to their action.

 

Weird stuff fighting.

 

I see a divergence of strategies for physical vs mental conflict.

[Spectrum]

btt

[soundhunter]

You need to act like this guy:

ol2TT75gpz4&feature=related

 

In other words say something truly confusing and laugh in a crazy way.

 

Oh my gosh, I love this guy! I can't believe how good I feel listening to him laugh. He seems so, universal too, he reminds me of my crazy old Polish family members, and some of the First Nations elders I've known, he just has a kind of jolly wisdom that I hope to grow into some day when I'm an old fart but hopefully young at heart I totally think you're right, acting like this guy is an excellent way to handle conflict. I'm going to post this link to the other thread where the guy is asking how to deal with conflict.

[the buddha & the beast]

Sun Tzu of course offers the most famous taoist approach to conflict.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the War Classic doesn't make a single peep anywhere about defense being a good strategy, an acceptable strategy, or even a poor strategy to resort to in dire circumstances. It is entirely offense/attack-oriented! The main idea is, if you've put yourself in a position where you are being attacked without your having intended this to happen, you're doing something very wrong. You do your best to avoid being attacked, it says, unless you've deliberately and secretly set yourself up to be attacked so as to trap the attacking party -- simulate weakness while being, on the contrary, fully prepared and then some. As for attacking others, in Sun Tzu's view, you avoid it only if there's the slightest possibility of losing. No suicidal attacks please. "You attack only when you've already won before you've started."

 

Difficult as hell, taoist conflict resolution strategy according to the greatest expert in history to ever have left a written account. A lot to learn... and much more difficult to learn than the "don't attack" and "defend-only" flower power ideas that have seeped into our collective mind in the guise of some "generic taoist" wisdom. Which I haven't seen even one person follow in real life, by the way... let alone in virtual life. (Yes, sarcasm counts too, incidentally... people who never attack others openly but resort to much-worked-on, honed to perfection sarcastic jabs instead are bona fide aggressors, attackers... although this particular strategy is the dumbest of them all, IMO, since it doesn't win anything for the aggressor and doesn't do much damage to his or her opponent either... a very trivial and altogether pointless pursuit, this let's-pretend-I'm-not-attacking-you kind of attack. I've seen a few veritable generals of this tactic... but I haven't seen them win much with it, not from me anyway... although if someone was abused as a kid by a parent being mercilessly sarcastic -- a less common but no less painful kind of abuse -- they might later be stuck with doing it to others as an unconscious defense mechanism... but unconscious defenses aren't the best strategies in almost any conflict... considering what Sun Tzu advocates is conscious offenses! )

 

There's been only very few instances so far when I deliberately applied Sun Tzu to conflict. It required much preparation and a lot of focused awareness and total elimination of every trace of wishful thinking. Those few instances were the ones when I did in fact instigate a conflict deliberately, fully prepared, with not a trace of doubt in my mind as to the victorious outcome. (For some reason, although it's a different source altogether and the quote talks about "man" in the sense "human," which I, generally speaking, dislike, I'm reminded of a Don Juan bit of wisdom:

"A man goes to knowledge as a man goes to war: with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge or going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and someone who makes this mistake may not live to regret it.")

interesting...i've never heard this theory before. that would be really cool to see a person who only wins his "battles," though i wonder how you know when u'r sure to win.

[Taomeow]

interesting...i've never heard this theory before. that would be really cool to see a person who only wins his "battles," though i wonder how you know when u'r sure to win.

It's all in the book... read it and find out!

 

You don't "know" you're going to win until you've done your homework -- sometimes decades of homework, sometimes centuries. You are taught how to avoid conflict you're not prepared for, and how to prepare for conflict you want to engage in so as to accomplish whatever it is you intend to accomplish. E.g., to put yourself in a position where you won't be attacked by someone seeking conflict with you. If your goal is to avoid conflict, sometimes you can only accomplish this goal of not being attacked via initiating the attack, according to Sun Tzu. Para pace, para bellum, as they put it in Rome -- "if you want peace, get ready for war." This is not nice from any noble but unrealistic peace-brings-peace perspective, but historically realistic and accurate... in human history, in the past ten thousand years at least, no one has ever been granted peace without fighting for it. Not for a second...

[WhiteTiger]

interesting...i've never heard this theory before. that would be really cool to see a person who only wins his "battles," though i wonder how you know when u'r sure to win.

 

Its honestly obvious when your gonna win or lose a battle.

 

I guess you have to remember some battles you had with fighters/warriors...

I've lost all the ones I've been in... (My goal isn't to actually fight... but apparently I get whooped by fighters) although All the ones I've been in people were controlling me abusing me and using me in all cases thus the reason the moment when i don't want to be a part of it anymore everyone seems to turn their back on me and screw me over.

 

I'm no longer interested in being part of any fights or wars. I am however interested in being a fighter/warrior to some extent but the point isn't to hurt people... its to protect myself in the most desperate times.

 

My recommendation IS (I FEEL VERY IMPORTANT) if you can solve the issue through spirituality (and theoretically you always can supposedly) then you deal with it through healing the person causing issue with you. The last AND ALWAYS LAST time to do or use anything would be to fight... I REALLY RECOMMEND FIGHTING AS THE LAST RESORT WHEN YOU CAN NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE

 

I'm sure many others would advocate the same. Fighters that spend their whole lives as their proffession and training as a fight even NEVER steps the bounds of their fighting ability be higher then their healing ability nor the spiritually... They believe in a balance of all three... I'll give you an example, if you fighting abilities is stronger then your healing abilities you will end up hurting yourself and take much longer down time when you do get hurt. Thus why Spirituality, Healing, and Fighting abilities should be at the same ability if you are to do fighting. If you are a healer... Spirituality and healing should be at least level, and your fighting can be lower... if your just spiritual you just need to work on that being the highest. These are the general proper "Safe theories" one should work with.

 

even more funny one can talk about how Sun Tzu teaches how to fight... But thats only one side of the situation... You could call that the external way of dealing with it... the Yang, while internal way (yin) way of dealing with the situation would be to learn how to keep out of a fight. Supposedly the balance between yin and yang would be the spiritual way... making it the reason why its superior.

 

Anyway lots of fun things to work with, think about.

[WhiteTiger]

If its not obvious your if you gonna win or lose the battle just make up and be friends with the person... buy them dinner or something... You don't want to get into a fight.

 

PLEASE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THIS IS ONLY WHEN YOU ARE IN A SITUATION YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE... BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH MOST PEOPLE IS AT THE TIME THEY DON'T THINK THEY CAN DO ANYTHING ELSE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM

 

I asked a teacher if you were in a fight and you attack the person three times and they block all or deflect or completely uneffected what should you do. He replied, make friends with him and offer to buy him some icecream because you ain't gunna win.

 

All battles should end in one attack. If you want to should absolute ruthlessness. when both sides are unaware of each others strength or strength of their friends (willing to help them) some fighters play by the rules of should understand their opponents before striking at all, often when you can't deal with it any other way you spend time figuring out the situation or if times are much worse you lightly attack them to see their reaction. The point here is just to see the ability of the opponent. The second is the end the battle completely outright. But we are talking about battles here not wars...

 

Wars are a subject well, you should spend lots and lots of years studying to figure out how they work... You gunna learn in Sun Tzu its always best to avoid wars at all costs... it cost a great deal on you... your city, and state.

 

The word battle in this case refers to already being in a war. So thus why i am actually talking about fighting...

 

Always study both sides of the situation not just one side.

 

Its always best to understand the full situation before taking action... That is a well known Taoist practice... and many on this forum that knows anything about rightful action will agree with I 100% guarantee that. IF NOT, THEIR IS SOMETHING FAULTY IN THEIR LOGIC. This is pure wisdom I'm sharing you don't have to believe me or not... I'm not pushing one way or the other... I have no interest in one side or the other. I'm just stating what i know... if you really wanna question it you can address questions to me or the other side of the agruement or do your own research on the matter (Which will take years in my opinion unless you get this sort of thing from a real accomplished teacher)

 

Heres my end all point... Cultivate (Spiritually, healer or fighter) for the sole purpose to never need to use what you know for a fight unless you absolutely can't do anything else.

 

Sometimes in small battles or fights when people suffering from issues bad things happen... and then people get so frustrated or angry that they decide to fight about it... and thats just never the best solution... but i will not argue its a solution. Creates all sorts of horrible horrible karma though... you definately pay for it in the end. And Good fighters that are experienced (not me talking about someone I know... and no he isn't my friend) are used to the idea that it creates bad karma and learn to live with it. They create bad karma and they then gotta work a lot to get out of it... Waste of time in my opinion but many people make choices based on ignorance. Sadly... i have little power to stop such things.

Edited February 3, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[WhiteTiger]

Most popular practices of Taoism is somewhat slowly taught through Chinese Internal Martial arts and thus many people start to get exposure to fighting with this sort of thing.

 

This might be why some people focus so much on fighting while they talk or think of taoism.

 

The title of this post is "how do you use taoism during a conflict?"

 

To properly understand how to use Taoism during a conflict you must look at the conflict first.

To figure out how to properly deal with the situation.

While this happens your taught Internal Martial Arts (honing your skills sharpening your ability) to keep the body fit in the mean time you are spending whatever amount you can afford to figure out the situation. This is why longevity is so key. This can often result in taking many years to solve the problem, but no doubt it will be solving the problem as to not come up again unless the problem has then changed.

Thus learning how to take proper action when the time comes... if something happens abruptly unexpected you must still remain calm until you understand the situation fully.

Edited February 5, 2009 by WhiteTiger