So I met this Republican from Texas the other day...

[h.uriahr]

Again - not sure how sharing my fear of how people make statements that are against the Constitution (e.g. freedom to practice religion and the right of everyone to be elected in federal office despite his religious believe or absence thereof) makes me judgmental.

Not that I really care.

I just make an observation.

 

Judging is more like guessing someone age by the way they type :-)

And format their sentences :-)

 

As for the topic - I have accepted Osho's view on people who get in politics...

 

And I don't say Obama is going to save this country. It's way too messed up right now.

And it is human greed that led to the mess we are in today.

Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back.

Hence it will need revolution of human consciousness to start getting things in a better shape.

 

Seems like the time has come for a new economic, social and political revolution. Globally.

The current "free market" economy proved it is not the answer, as the socialism in the way it was practiced wasn't.

 

As someone who tries to reflect on the Tao, one should understand the constant need of movement, the forthcoming fall of the strong and the unavoidable suffering for many.

Life moves on.

Obama or not in power.

Republicans or Democrats in power (can't wait to get an alternative :-)

USA or someone else in power.

 

Not-so-young people can take the "stupid" risk to move to a different place if they believe that only the rolling stones don't get...:-)

 

"In making a move, know how to choose the right moment" TTC 8

"...To move constantly in the path of Virtue" TTC 28

 

Sounds like youre taking the safe route by moving to Switzerland

[joeblast]

 

Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back.

 

that's complete bull - everyone that was involved is guilty - from the politicians that wrote the laws forcing the banks to expand their definition of someone qualified to buy a home, to the industry that bared its teeth and sprung to action, to the feds who kept the interest rate so artificially low for so long, to the people that just went ahead and signed their name, not being sure they could pay for their place....all responsible for their own actions.

[evZENy]

that's complete bull

 

Or complete cow? :-)

Sure - the guys who trick you into signing are responsible as well. Would never say they aren't.

However, this would be like blaming the drug dealers for the drug addiction.

Yes, without them people won't get stoned. But it's the demand of the people that justifies their "business".

 

Since I have perfect credit and lots of saved money in the bank I used to receive phone calls offering me up to a million in loans! Well, a paper, a pencil and few brain cells are enough to figure out, that it's a risk not worth taking. So I didn't.

I rather spend my money travelling, helping people in my poor country or elsewhere and of course - taking Tai Chi classes :-), than living in a big house that I don't really need.

Have few friends stack now with 2 houses. And even the ones with 1 just complain how hard life is.

Well, it isn't. Life is what you make out of it.

 

So that is my point.

We say at home: "It' snot crazy, who eats the whole cake, but whoever offers it to him".

People decided to offer their future to the bankers, who saw the opportunity to make the easy money.

I don't blame the ones or the others - just feel sorry, that nowadays people seem to be so blinded by the material, that some of them end up killing their families and themselves at the end, when their dreams got shattered. I am just sceptical if the lesson will be learnt for this and the next generations.

[joeblast]

my point is that this home crisis started with a legislative failure

[h.uriahr]

Or complete cow? :-)

Sure - the guys who trick you into signing are responsible as well. Would never say they aren't.

However, this would be like blaming the drug dealers for the drug addiction.

Yes, without them people won't get stoned. But it's the demand of the people that justifies their "business".

 

Since I have perfect credit and lots of saved money in the bank I used to receive phone calls offering me up to a million in loans! Well, a paper, a pencil and few brain cells are enough to figure out, that it's a risk not worth taking. So I didn't.

I rather spend my money travelling, helping people in my poor country or elsewhere and of course - taking Tai Chi classes :-), than living in a big house that I don't really need.

Have few friends stack now with 2 houses. And even the ones with 1 just complain how hard life is.

Well, it isn't. Life is what you make out of it.

 

So that is my point.

We say at home: "It' snot crazy, who eats the whole cake, but whoever offers it to him".

People decided to offer their future to the bankers, who saw the opportunity to make the easy money.

I don't blame the ones or the others - just feel sorry, that nowadays people seem to be so blinded by the material, that some of them end up killing their families and themselves at the end, when their dreams got shattered. I am just sceptical if the lesson will be learnt for this and the next generations.

 

You say something and then completely white it out like you didnt say it. You said that politicians and bankers ARENT guilty in the post before last but in your recent post you say they ARE responosible...What is that about?

[evZENy]

You say something and then completely white it out like you didnt say it. You said that politicians and bankers ARENT guilty in the post before last but in your recent post you say they ARE responosible...What is that about?

 

MPWay

 

1. There isn't a difference between beeing guilty for something and being responsible for it?

2. Shouldn't we try not to get attached to the words?

 

JOEBLAST

 

True.

Wars also start from the government. But it's the people who go and die on the front.

That's part of the agreement - we elect the government with the agreement, that they use us to fight in wars.

In the same way - we've allowed for the government to create legislative failure, but it's us, the people, who have agreed to use it!

I still wait for an example, where someone was FORCED to get a sweet loan to buy a house (or whatever else).

If no one was going for the amazing deals, would the crisis be created !?

If no one wanted to get the low-interest-don't-ask-why-it's-0%-downpayment loans, how were the bad credits going to be created?

I enjoyed watching the Flashvideo explaining where the money comes from, who makes it and how does it change with the time. very simple, but most of us don't think about it!

Let's say thinking about how the stock market or gloabl economy is too much.

But learning the meaning and the value of money...

 

It is in the revolutions, when the people say to the government: "OK, the deal is over. You are out - new rules"

In the same way the rules wealth is created, the meaning of money, the economic growth - all will have to change. With a revolution. Which can not come without change of the consciousness for most of us.

I am just sharing what wiser people than us here seem to think.

 

From my Taoist practice I got convinced in what I only knew before:

Things that can be paid for are not the real source of happiness.

Things that can be stolen from you are not the real source of happiness.

Things that can be replaced or thrown away and you still can survive are not the real source of happiness.

So if you want to be happy - why go after them first!?

 

My humble opinion.

[Snowdoggie]

what gets me is when I hear people say dumb shit like "obama's been in office only 2 weeks and he's already done way more than bush"...friend of mine said that to me the other day I was like seriously? are you fucking kidding me??? You dont have to be for one side or the other to see that statements like that are completely ignorant.

 

LOL mp....the best fit man...I can see if we're talking sixpack abs...but the chicago vetting process I can do without...

 

or things like repackaged "change" rhetoric...

 

The people who really surprise me are the ones who are saying that Obama is already failing even though he has only been in office for two weeks. They say it very loudly and often with much profanity.

 

It's too early to tell what the new guy is going to do.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Snowdoggie

[h.uriahr]

MPWay

 

1. There isn't a difference between beeing guilty for something and being responsible for it?

2. Shouldn't we try not to get attached to the words?

 

JOEBLAST

 

True.

Wars also start from the government. But it's the people who go and die on the front.

That's part of the agreement - we elect the government with the agreement, that they use us to fight in wars.

In the same way - we've allowed for the government to create legislative failure, but it's us, the people, who have agreed to use it!

I still wait for an example, where someone was FORCED to get a sweet loan to buy a house (or whatever else).

If no one was going for the amazing deals, would the crisis be created !?

If no one wanted to get the low-interest-don't-ask-why-it's-0%-downpayment loans, how were the bad credits going to be created?

I enjoyed watching the Flashvideo explaining where the money comes from, who makes it and how does it change with the time. very simple, but most of us don't think about it!

Let's say thinking about how the stock market or gloabl economy is too much.

But learning the meaning and the value of money...

 

It is in the revolutions, when the people say to the government: "OK, the deal is over. You are out - new rules"

In the same way the rules wealth is created, the meaning of money, the economic growth - all will have to change. With a revolution. Which can not come without change of the consciousness for most of us.

I am just sharing what wiser people than us here seem to think.

 

From my Taoist practice I got convinced in what I only knew before:

Things that can be paid for are not the real source of happiness.

Things that can be stolen from you are not the real source of happiness.

Things that can be replaced or thrown away and you still can survive are not the real source of happiness.

So if you want to be happy - why go after them first!?

 

My humble opinion.

 

In an arguement or debate, words mean alot and you flip flop. Being guilty IS being responsible for it as well.

[hyok]

The people who really surprise me are the ones who are saying that Obama is already failing even though he has only been in office for two weeks. They say it very loudly and often with much profanity.

 

It's too early to tell what the new guy is going to do.

 

I'm not partial to any candidate or party, but Obama is already failing. Those who say he is without reason are no better than those who say he's not without reason.

 

What has Obama done since he's gotten into office?

 

But more importantly, what has what he's done (or not done) done to resolve whatever it is he's supposed to fix?

 

And MOST important, what needs to be fixed, exactly?

 

These are the key questions that deserve answers and without these answers, no judgement can be made.

 

Edited February 6, 2009 by hyok

[Snowdoggie]

I'm not partial to any candidate or party, but Obama is already failing. Those who say he is without reason are no better than those who say he's not without reason.

 

What has Obama done since he's gotten into office?

 

But more importantly, what has what he's done (or not done) done to resolve whatever it is he's supposed to fix?

 

And MOST important, what needs to be fixed, exactly?

 

 

If you just lost your job, your house or your economic security, you know what needs to be fixed.

 

If you have lost faith in the economic system and you are afraid to buy or invest, you know what needs to be fixed.

 

It took more than 8 years and two political parties to create the problems.

 

I will take more than two weeks, probably more than two years, to solve the problems.

[evZENy]

In an arguement or debate, words mean alot and you flip flop. Being guilty IS being responsible for it as well.

 

I guess you don't share my Taosit opinion, that words are meaningless.

But since you insist on this and I am a simple person, I can answer to your two points.

 

If you read my statement carefully, it says:

 

"Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back."

 

I didn't say they are not guilty for the mess.

I say they are not gulity for the stupid decisions people make.

No flip-flopping here!

 

As for "guilty" and "responsible" - that's so much non Taoist to compare - there are dictionaries to check with.

 

Just a small example, from a non-native English speaker like me, to wrap up this before dinner:

 

Your child breaks the neighbor's window while playing baseball.

Who's guilty? Your child.

Who's responsible? You.

 

have a good Now!

 

 

 

I'm not partial to any candidate or party, but Obama is already failing. Those who say he is without reason are

 

Hyok,

I happen to be reading the US constitution right now.

Where the power of the government branches is defined.

The president is not the one creating and voting the bill that doesn't pass the Congress.

he is the one who can sign it into law or veto it.

Not sure where exactly you see him failing.

So far I see only positive things.

And a Congress that still acts like 6 years olds who play war with each other. And don't care for the people who put them there.

[h.uriahr]

I guess you don't share my Taosit opinion, that words are meaningless.

But since you insist on this and I am a simple person, I can answer to your two points.

 

If you read my statement carefully, it says:

 

"Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back."

 

I didn't say they are not guilty for the mess.

I say they are not gulity for the stupid decisions people make.

No flip-flopping here!

 

As for "guilty" and "responsible" - that's so much non Taoist to compare - there are dictionaries to check with.

 

Just a small example, from a non-native English speaker like me, to wrap up this before dinner:

 

Your child breaks the neighbor's window while playing baseball.

Who's guilty? Your child.

Who's responsible? You.

 

have a good Now!

Hyok,

I happen to be reading the US constitution right now.

Where the power of the government branches is defined.

The president is not the one creating and voting the bill that doesn't pass the Congress.

he is the one who can sign it into law or veto it.

Not sure where exactly you see him failing.

So far I see only positive things.

And a Congress that still acts like 6 years olds who play war with each other. And don't care for the people who put them there.

 

The child, ultimately is responsible for the actions involved. Seeing as how child labor laws are so different nowadays the parent is legally responsible. You can hide behind whatever pile you want. It doesnt change the fact that you bounce back and forth. As far as responsibility goes, nice try but no luck.

[hyok]

If you just lost your job, your house or your economic security, you know what needs to be fixed.

 

If you have lost faith in the economic system and you are afraid to buy or invest, you know what needs to be fixed.

 

It took more than 8 years and two political parties to create the problems.

 

I will take more than two weeks, probably more than two years, to solve the problems.

 

 

The unemployed and paranoid-investor types may or may not know what needs to be fixed. But judging from what you've typed, your idea of what needs to be fixed seems to be solely laid upon the individual's perception of what needs to be fixed. OK. I can see what you mean by this.

 

But if one looks closer, beneath the veil of events occurring within the established environment, one can begin to recognize the loaded gun being handed to the uneducated slaves.

 

Everyone is talking about the economy this and the economy that, but what EXACTLY is the problem? The problem -- exactly -- is $1.4 Quadrillion in worthless securities traded exclusively among the super rich that nobody in government, media or the public sector chooses to talk about. Why? I don't know! This is the reason why the banks are broke. These performance contracts touted by Nobel Laureates, stamped and approved by the deepest pockets in finance and sold around the world with America's seal of approval are at the heart of the problem. It's glazed upon by media and the public points its curious eyes at it until the Big Words come out like "structured investment vehicle" [sIV] or "collatarized debt obligation" [CDO]. What are these things? Who made them? Who's selling them and who's buying them? The list begins with names like The Carlyle Group, Blackstone and JP Morgan.

 

Ultimately it's a question of accountability. Those who are supposed to be accountable have failed, and those whose jobs are to ensure the accountable be accounted [The SEC, The President/Executive Branch, Congress], have conspired with the morally bankrupt, and these actions - the selling and buying of worthless securities with no oversight - have shaken the foundations of America's biggest financial pillars. The contracts are not, have not and will not be performing as promised and the banks who pushed them are losing billions everyday because of this. Now remember, that's $1.4 Quadrillion [1,400,000,000,000,000 -- one thousand four-hundred million million]. Thus the credit crunch (cuz lenders have no money), hence the tightening of loans, hence the corporate squeeze, downsizing and unemployment and of course the all too volatile stock market nowadays.

 

This is a surgical summation of the biggest slice within a far-flung and far-reaching problem. Frankly though, i think it's too late to fix anything. It's just a matter of debts eventually being absorbed which is going to take a helluva lot longer than 2 years. Moreover, some major G nations are likely to adopt protectionist economic policies to protect itself from all this US garbage. If this should occur, it's highly likely the US is headed for a trade war with nations like China, and this will only prolong the digestive process for the West.

Edited February 6, 2009 by hyok

[h.uriahr]

I guess you don't share my Taosit opinion, that words are meaningless.

But since you insist on this and I am a simple person, I can answer to your two points.

 

If you read my statement carefully, it says:

 

"Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back."

 

I didn't say they are not guilty for the mess.

I say they are not gulity for the stupid decisions people make.

No flip-flopping here!

 

As for "guilty" and "responsible" - that's so much non Taoist to compare - there are dictionaries to check with.

 

Just a small example, from a non-native English speaker like me, to wrap up this before dinner:

 

Your child breaks the neighbor's window while playing baseball.

Who's guilty? Your child.

Who's responsible? You.

 

have a good Now!

Hyok,

I happen to be reading the US constitution right now.

Where the power of the government branches is defined.

The president is not the one creating and voting the bill that doesn't pass the Congress.

he is the one who can sign it into law or veto it.

Not sure where exactly you see him failing.

So far I see only positive things.

And a Congress that still acts like 6 years olds who play war with each other. And don't care for the people who put them there.

 

Bickering back and forth does no good. I apologize

[evZENy]

Bickering back and forth does no good. I apologize

 

Neither does requoting pages and pages of what the others said :-)

Sure, if you don't agree with my points, you are free to disagree.

Would be nice to have your own.

And doesn't make either of us right.

 

This became too unsubstantial and monologish for my lack of time...

Enjoy the rest of it :-)