Zhan Zhuang and Push Hands question.

[Pranaman]

When I do my horse stance, i go for about 7 minutes. but there are moments that last for about 3-4 seconds, where I raise my body and ease up on my legs. this happens about 4 times when my mind becomes distracted. How imparative is it that I don't rest at all?

 

Also, my friend saw Nicolas Cage doing push hands in a movie, and I told him that i've done a little bit. Anyway, we both have fun with it, but I know it's not right. He's very very rigid, and it never feels like the flow that occurs when I do it with someone more experienced then me. Is there anyway that I can get us in the flow?

[WhiteTiger]

When I do my horse stance, i go for about 7 minutes. but there are moments that last for about 3-4 seconds, where I raise my body and ease up on my legs. this happens about 4 times when my mind becomes distracted. How imparative is it that I don't rest at all?

Its value of not resting is the difference in resting.

 

But to actually help you out a little more and to try not seem so redundant, I would personally say (I'm no qualified teacher on the subject and speaking clearly from experience) get better at not resting in a nice and gradual amount of time... Try to Focus to only have 3 rests next time, once you get that down next try for another only 2 rests.

 

In external or Wushu like practices they have what they call an internal way to deal with such things... Which works very well actually and is totally dependent on the strength of your mental focus.

 

You should to gaze straight forward as if your eyes are shooting forward while using that focus i talked about to pay attention to your breathing making sure you take breaths in and out.

 

The better you can listen to your breath (which is done through feeling) the easier this will become for you.

Listening to your breath should be a basic feeling of your lungs being more full on inhalation and less full on exhalation. It should be more of a natural Rhythm. The less amount of time you can keep this up the less of a Rhythm it will feel. This is only because your exerting so externally.

 

Anyway... you can use lots of talk to try and be exact like i am... although after a while it seems to be jazzing it up... Basically enthusiasm is on how strong your Focus is.

 

Also, my friend saw Nicolas Cage doing push hands in a movie, and I told him that i've done a little bit. Anyway, we both have fun with it, but I know it's not right. He's very very rigid, and it never feels like the flow that occurs when I do it with someone more experienced then me. Is there anyway that I can get us in the flow?

Well, have you learned to do Qigong in your taichi form yet?

That should drastically help you with the flow...

 

Although if not simulating the flow physically only is just a proper practice of good relaxation and understanding/practice of yielding. Which does require good feeling... To adhere faster to yielding requires the relaxation. And putting this all together in a practice is what makes it such an art.

[Spirit Ape]

Concerntrate on your breathing into dan tian in stances especially when you find it getting tired and sore this takes your mind off that plus you should be doing the stances with proper breathing and focus especially in the beginning. If you are losing proper structure in stances cause of pain then that is enough and you should stop till you build up the bones and tendons you throw out your body doing it wrongly.

 

Push ups are important, keep at them!

 

Ape

[Ryan T.]

When I do my horse stance, i go for about 7 minutes. but there are moments that last for about 3-4 seconds, where I raise my body and ease up on my legs. this happens about 4 times when my mind becomes distracted. How imparative is it that I don't rest at all?

 

Also, my friend saw Nicolas Cage doing push hands in a movie, and I told him that i've done a little bit. Anyway, we both have fun with it, but I know it's not right. He's very very rigid, and it never feels like the flow that occurs when I do it with someone more experienced then me. Is there anyway that I can get us in the flow?

 

The horse stance issue may just be your body still getting used to that length of duration. Give it more time and it should come together for you.

 

IME, push-hands requires the guidance of a teacher. Two relatively inexperienced practitioners can feel out some some things but questions should be brought back to your teacher or at least someone that has years more experience with it than yourselves. Practice time is very important but if you don't have someone to bring your specific questions back to it will take much longer to increase your skills.

 

What aspects of push-hands are you two working on? And what exactly do you mean by "flow"?

[joeblast]

when you start getting tired standing, then its time to relax more

[thelerner]

Hua Na Da is right, snagging a teacher or at least an advance student is the way to improve.

 

That said, and this being the bums, let me give you some unqualified advice .

 

Dance it. Face each other, connect. First person strong yan movement, hips move forward, relaxed arms follow using the hips momentum. Second person absorb, rolling hips back, arms in, turning it into a circle, then they make strong yan movement, hips out followed by arms and the first person absorbs and circles it.

 

As a warm up don't fight, but work on connection and power of the movement. The hips should move forcefully but stay within the stance. With practice you can start circling quite a bit of force and get a feel for the outer bounds of where others force becomes imbalance.

 

 

Michael

[mYTHmAKER]

push hands - there should be no resistance - you move with the other person.

[Duifang]

 

 

Also, my friend saw Nicolas Cage doing push hands in a movie, and I told him that i've done a little bit.

 

 

What was the movie?

[WhiteTiger]

push hands - there should be no resistance - you move with the other person.

 

Yep... This is a practice like all practices should evolve or get better (deeper, more things to learn) at the all levels. For Example, as you practice throughout beginning, Intermediate, advanced, assistant instructor, Teacher and Master levels it should get better.

 

Grand-Master level = Mastered everything... "Supposedly Mastered infinite knowledge on how to do push hands."

Edited January 30, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[orb]

What was the movie?

 

 

2008 Bangkok Dangerous

[Pranaman]

Hua Na Da is right, snagging a teacher or at least an advance student is the way to improve.

 

That said, and this being the bums, let me give you some unqualified advice .

 

Dance it. Face each other, connect. First person strong yan movement, hips move forward, relaxed arms follow using the hips momentum. Second person absorb, rolling hips back, arms in, turning it into a circle, then they make strong yan movement, hips out followed by arms and the first person absorbs and circles it.

 

As a warm up don't fight, but work on connection and power of the movement. The hips should move forcefully but stay within the stance. With practice you can start circling quite a bit of force and get a feel for the outer bounds of where others force becomes imbalance.

Michael

 

Thank you. That helps.

 

That is a very good description. This (yang-yin) is what happens when I practice with a student of my ex-sifu. My pushing partner has never practiced martially, just baseline strength. I will try to help him feel it. thank you

[Spectrum]

When you find someone who "flows" spend time moving with them. It's important to balance personal form with with partner practice. Don't overdo it into a contest, but sparring is important. You always have to balance learning with conditioning, but ultimately cooridination and harmony is the goal. You don't get a good sound playing an instrument as hard as you can. You want it to resonate correctly.

[Pranaman]

When you find someone who "flows" spend time moving with them. It's important to balance personal form with with partner practice. Don't overdo it into a contest, but sparring is important. You always have to balance learning with conditioning, but ultimately cooridination and harmony is the goal. You don't get a good sound playing an instrument as hard as you can. You want it to resonate correctly.

 

Sounds true.

 

So since I don't see anyone from the class currently, and my friend does not practice standing or form, should I wait to practice push hands?

[Ryan T.]

So since I don't see anyone from the class currently, and my friend does not practice standing or form, should I wait to practice push hands?

 

I would. I find most people's ideas about what push-hands should feel like to be completely off from how it is intended to be. People focus in a lot on the push. When, especially in the beginning, it should be all about the neutralize. IMO, unless people have several years of experience under a good teacher they should slow down their push hands.

 

My understanding is that push hands help you to better understand your own weaknesses and faults. The pushes or positions that make you the most uncomfortable or trapped are the situations that you will be able to learn the most from. So if you do not have any guidance from either a proper teacher who is overseeing your push hands curriculum or a partner who knows enough to put you in those situations from time to time to stretch your comfort level I don't see how you gain any real insight. Plus, as a beginner do you want someone else who is also a beginner propelling you into the wall or mattress or whatever you use when you want to issue a bit of power?

 

And I am a big believer in the system. Form, weapons and two-person sensitivity work all come together to form the whole of the experience. I learn the form to give myself a base for weapons and push hands. I practice weapons to learn the different energies each weapon(sword, saber and spear) has to accentuate which adds more depth to my form. I practice push hands to eliminate those deficiencies which keep me from being fully relaxed and eventually to learn more practical applications in a clinch-type setting. This of course makes my form that much more relaxed and meditative. For me in my practice, it all starts and ends with form.

 

I have also seen people get hurt by people who don't know what they are doing. It really is about investing in loss. Push hands is a great ego-deflation tool. Most people don't know this and anxiety can build up in a partner and when it comes time to push they let that anxiety come out on you. If you are going to be relatively new to push hands and practice with someone who is also relatively new to push hands go soft and slow. Practice basic drills. Maybe some 4 directions. And I would probably avoid willow.

 

Most of this is, of course, just my opinion based on my limited experience with this topic.