Near death experiences

[hagar]

I've been curious about what your thoughts and experiences are on this subject.

 

In my own life I've been with two people as they passed away, in very different manner. But I have never had a near death experience myself.

 

Personally, I've been quite ambiguous to near-death experieces. Especially from a radically experiential standpoint.

Even from a Taoist perspective, there is no whole person that is experiencing anything after death, before you integrate your Shen on a very high level of cultivation.

Buddhist masters also often point to the fact that there is no "you" left in your death. In one way something exists after death, yet in another way "you" cease to exist.

 

After all, life after death, as reported by people who come back is very personal: Meeting relatives, angels, god, Jesus, seeing hells, seeing heavens, being suspended from their bodies, yet fully conscious.

 

I personally am more inclined to the absurdity of the separation of one mode of existence to another, what is reality, and what is imagination, and finally, how much does culturally based interpretation play a role. More like the poem of Chuang Tzu who couldn't decide if he was a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu, or the other way around.

 

On one side, there are scientific findings that NDEs are culturally independent. Yet many findings also point to the fact that f.ex Japanese subjects mostly did not see the "tunnel" and found themselves in utter darkness. Most westerners saw the tunnel. Many indigenous cultures report seeing landscapes and buildings closely resembling their own background.

Some meet Jesus, yet most people do not report hellish realms. If we take the Tibetan Book of the Dead as a singpost, hellish realms are just as real. Most scientific findings conclude that the shame and trauma of experiencing those will make people reluctant to speak about them (i.e I was a bad person and went to hell)

 

But the most eerie thing about NDEs are the overall life change that these experiences produce: Less materialistic, more ethically minded, empatic, loving, and all report less fear or no fear of death.

And the most basic experience is one of all-emcompassing love.

 

So give me your best bet folks.

 

NDE's; neurons firing, proof of afterlife, or just plain makebelieve?

 

h

Edited January 30, 2009 by hagar

[exorcist_1699]

In fact, Taoist big Cosmic Circulation is a near- death status we deliberately enter. When our breathing and heart beating are stopped , isn't it a near-death status ? This is why the lost of our engligtened mind during that process and our drifting away from our physical body is said to be the main danger at that stage.

 

Basides, the Magic Gateway is said to be the door where soul leaves and enters our body . Capable of opening and closing this gate at our will is the reason why Taoist claim of immortality something feasible.

Edited January 31, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[hagar]

In fact, Taoist big Cosmic Circulation is a near- death status we deliberately enter. When our breathing and heart beating are stopped , isn't it a near-death status ? This is why the lost of our engligtened mind during that process and our drifting away from our physical body is said to be the main danger at that stage.

 

Basides, the Magic Gateway is said to be the door where soul leaves and enters our body . Capable of opening and closing this gate at our will is the reason why Taoist claim of immortality something feasible.

 

Big cosmic Circulation; what version of it? Whole body or sitting practice?

Magic Gateway; Are you pointing to the Ni Wan cavity ?

 

BTW: For those who report that they've had NDE's; feel free to report!

 

h

[NeutralWire]

I've had OBEs but no NDEs.

 

NeutralWire

[exorcist_1699]

When pre-heavenly qi comes upon us, our previous physical life functions such as breathing and heart beating will recede; That is , when the real life arises, the pseudo life recedes. In fact, in practice, we can clearly sense when our breathing stops; by pressing on our pulse , we also can sense the slowing down of the heart beat and the final

stop of it , yet without leading to physical death....

 

 

Many near-death experience are said to be sensed in such a "deliberate" effort we initiate so as upgrade qi...

Edited January 31, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[hagar]

Thank y'all!

 

If I could sum up the conclusion of this poll, (as expected) there were a vast majority here who either have had or are open to the possibility of near-death experiences. What is more interesting is the number of people who report to have had one themselves or who knows people who has. About 1/4 of the replies indicate that. Also several report to have had out-of-body experiences. (!)

Only 1 reply points towards rejection of the reality of NDE's. Now on a site like this this is not very significant, yet it shows the overall bias towards the reality of these experiences, or that they are actually real.

 

I'm really curious for you anonymous who have replied to have had NDE's; would you like to share some of what you experienced, or recall what others who have had one told about it?

 

For the record, I am neither for nor agains, just very fascinated by the whole phenomenon, and open to all views and experiences related to it.

 

h

 

PS: exorcist_1699: nicely put.

[Mal]

[hagar]

[Yoda]

When pre-heavenly qi comes upon us, our previous physical life functions such as breathing and heart beating will recede; That is , when the real life arises, the pseudo life recedes. In fact, in practice, we can clearly sense when our breathing stops; by pressing on our pulse , we also can sense the slowing down of the heart beat and the final

stop of it , yet without leading to physical death....

 

 

Many near-death experience are said to be sensed in such a "deliberate" effort we initiate so as upgrade qi...

 

Cool!!

[exorcist_1699]

Many living things such as bacteria and worms can enter near-death status for years ,even decades ,then resume alive when situation changes . However , only some humans , the Taoists , with the support of pre-heavenly qi ,consciously enter this status so as to explore the secret of life and universe ; this is the reason why they are privileged to live eternally.

Edited February 4, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[the buddha & the beast]

i know somebody who almost died because of something she did to herself. she doesn't remember anything that happened then, but she says when she came back to, that she felt something inside of her that wasn't there before. i've often wondered what exactly she meant. it was implied that she knew she wanted to live from then on so is this her feeling different energy in herself, now that she knows she wants to be here? or does it mean she thinks something or someone outside of herself gave her more of a will to live? either way, it's an understatement to say how bittersweet one thing led to the other for her. it seems like certain things like death impact people more than they could ever expect...they could be more broken than ever before, but when they face death, they realize how full of life they are.

[CarsonZi]

The book "DMT, The Spirit Molecule" By Rick(?) Strassman gives some very interesting perspectives on NDE's as well as alien abductions and "peak" religious experiences. Anyone else out there read this book?

 

Love,

Carson

[ThisLife]

.

 

 

I found all the posts above very interesting. They were, for me, a further stimulation on a subject that has somehow sounded'right' since I first came across mention of it in Elisabeth Kuhler-Ross' book. She was a doctor in a New York hospital who, through her personal experiences with the dying, first brought NDEs into the scientific world,

 

But there are other necessary and counter-balancing components in life which I find emphasize the opportunity we have each moment to experience the enjoyment of living while it is present in this body. (There's plenty of time for experiencing death when my time comes,... but at this moment, now, I'm undeniably here. Alive).

 

So, since a lot of Taoism is about maintaining one's balance, I thought I would add a touch of humour into a subject which has a fair amount of potential to make one forget the joy of laughter and living. The following is an anecdote on an NDE by Kurt Vonnegut :

 

 

 

 

"Dr Kevorkian has just unstrapped me from the gurney after yet another controlled near-death experience. I was lucky enough on this trip to interview none other than the late Adolph Hitler.

 

I was gratified to learn that he now feels remorse for any actions of his, however indirectly, which might have had anything to do with the violent deaths suffered by thirty-five million people during World War II. He and his mistress Eva Braun, of course, were among those casualties, along with four million other Germans, six million Jews, eighteen million citizens of the Soviet Union, and so on.

 

"I paid my dues along with everybody else," he said.

 

It is his hope that a modest monument, possibly a stone cross, since he was a Christian, will be erected somewhere in his memory, possibly on the grounds of the United Nations headquarters in New York. It should be incised, he said, with his name and dates 1889 - 1945. Underneath should be a two-word sentence in German : "Entschuldigen Sie."

 

Roughly translated into English, this comes out, "I Beg Your Pardon," or "Excuse Me."

 

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

.

[Wayfarer64]

1st- around 6 yo- I fell out of a moving car - my short life flashed thru my mind(before my eyes as they say)

 

2nd- at 14 yo I had Strep,Mono, and blood poisoning that brought me to the brink of death... "I" rose up out of my body - saw a silvery feather dance down to me and then I was "told" to go back it was not my time..

 

3rd- of many in a span of days- at 28 - I was tortured and then left for dead by the KKK, suffered greatly and had many visions of my future. There were several instances when I left my body and was transported away from my torments, one I zoomed into deep space and saw wonderous nebula and galaxies move though time/space -it was a wonderous realm of cosmic movement... In later years I used these visions as the basis for many paintings... Another was when an "angel" took the place of my spiritual self -(or conscious mind) for a while - to give me a breather as I was giving up my will to live...Others I just floated above myself observing the mayhem below me...

 

I obviously survived... But - with a deeper sense of meaning and needed effort to do the things expected of me to complete my karmic debts and follow through with any expected new acts of following the will of the creative force that runs thru each of us... It was completely humbling in a very good way.

 

These three + experiences gave me a profound sense that I have an actual eternal self that will go on beyond my current human life.

[hagar]

1st- around 6 yo- I fell out of a moving car - my short life flashed thru my mind(before my eyes as they say)

 

2nd- at 14 yo I had Strep,Mono, and blood poisoning that brought me to the brink of death... "I" rose up out of my body - saw a silvery feather dance down to me and then I was "told" to go back it was not my time..

 

3rd- of many in a span of days- at 28 - I was tortured and then left for dead by the KKK, suffered greatly and had many visions of my future. There were several instances when I left my body and was transported away from my torments, one I zoomed into deep space and saw wonderous nebula and galaxies move though time/space -it was a wonderous realm of cosmic movement... In later years I used these visions as the basis for many paintings... Another was when an "angel" took the place of my spiritual self -(or conscious mind) for a while - to give me a breather as I was giving up my will to live...Others I just floated above myself observing the mayhem below me...

 

I obviously survived... But - with a deeper sense of meaning and needed effort to do the things expected of me to complete my karmic debts and follow through with any expected new acts of following the will of the creative force that runs thru each of us... It was completely humbling in a very good way.

 

These three + experiences gave me a profound sense that I have an actual eternal self that will go on beyond my current human life.

 

Thank you for sharing those experiences.

 

How did you cope with your KKK-experience afterwards. Can't help but be curious; how did the KKK put you in this situation? Did you get kidnapped?

 

More importantly, did this experience expand or contract your view of spirituality, in a sense of viewing the world as basically good, bad, pre-destined, a game of chance, etc. etc.?

 

In relation to the poll results so far:

I am really astounded that so many either have had or know someone who has had NDEs. Since a majority are either pro the possibility of, or have had actual NDEs/know someone with NDEs, the tentative conlusion is that this type of experience have a much firmer footing in peoples outlook on life and death than I imagined!

 

h

[Wayfarer64]

Thank you for sharing those experiences.

 

How did you cope with your KKK-experience afterwards. Can't help but be curious; how did the KKK put you in this situation? Did you get kidnapped?

 

More importantly, did this experience expand or contract your view of spirituality, in a sense of viewing the world as basically good, bad, pre-destined, a game of chance, etc. etc.?

 

In relation to the poll results so far:

I am really astounded that so many either have had or know someone who has had NDEs. Since a majority are either pro the possibility of, or have had actual NDEs/know someone with NDEs, the tentative conlusion is that this type of experience have a much firmer footing in peoples outlook on life and death than I imagined!

 

h

 

 

I bad-mouthed the KKK to a guy who was awol from the navy (still is for that matter- Garret Wojokowitz -or-sky) who was a member - he has shipped with Stephen Pagones and later met Wiliiam Stanton as well as other neo-nazi and/or KKK Members. They jumped me as I returned home one morning... But that's the short story...

 

I didn't quite remember the incident well for several years.- Having successfully blocked it out -which I highly recommend as a basic theropy for trauma victims...Years later, when a complete memory returned, it took me some time to sort out. I reported what I remembered to both the FBI and the Southern Poverty Law Center, and also well known lawyer named Ron Kuby as well- - no help there -too late to make a case by then...

 

In all, it was a triuphant experience for me - I lived thru it and now remember the visions I experienced much better than the suffering. - So all together it was a good experience -which took some time and effort to get to...It made me a much stronger person in later years, and I have little fear of anything save the will of cosmic retribution- which I seem to have lived thru and wish on no one... As for the perpitrators of the torture -they are stuck in their own hell as a norm that I could wish for no one - no light, no hope of becoming actually human -no contact with the sacred... doomed and left in the dark... lost to all that is worth knowing....

 

I see the event as part of my karma - I seem to have meditated my way out of a hellish situation in a past lifetime and needed to pay-off the debt I owed in hell... At least that is the way I see it now... I meditated my way thru the kkk time also and used the knowledge I had gained of yoga, martial arts and internal meditative quietude to get thru...There was fighting back and I bloodied them as well -but mostly it was internal work that brought me thru...

 

love to all- and be aware -there is evil that can insnare and try to claim us - fight it and stay in the light of reason and creative growth- Love to all- Pat

[hagar]

I bad-mouthed the KKK to a guy who was awol from the navy (still is for that matter- Garret Wojokowitz -or-sky) who was a member - he has shipped with Stephen Pagones and later met Wiliiam Stanton as well as other neo-nazi and/or KKK Members. They jumped me as I returned home one morning... But that's the short story...

 

I didn't quite remember the incident well for several years.- Having successfully blocked it out -which I highly recommend as a basic theropy for trauma victims...Years later, when a complete memory returned, it took me some time to sort out. I reported what I remembered to both the FBI and the Southern Poverty Law Center, and also well known lawyer named Ron Kuby as well- - no help there -too late to make a case by then...

 

In all, it was a triuphant experience for me - I lived thru it and now remember the visions I experienced much better than the suffering. - So all together it was a good experience -which took some time and effort to get to...It made me a much stronger person in later years, and I have little fear of anything save the will of cosmic retribution- which I seem to have lived thru and wish on no one... As for the perpitrators of the torture -they are stuck in their own hell as a norm that I could wish for no one - no light, no hope of becoming actually human -no contact with the sacred... doomed and left in the dark... lost to all that is worth knowing....

 

I see the event as part of my karma - I seem to have meditated my way out of a hellish situation in a past lifetime and needed to pay-off the debt I owed in hell... At least that is the way I see it now... I meditated my way thru the kkk time also and used the knowledge I had gained of yoga, martial arts and internal meditative quietude to get thru...There was fighting back and I bloodied them as well -but mostly it was internal work that brought me thru...

 

love to all- and be aware -there is evil that can insnare and try to claim us - fight it and stay in the light of reason and creative growth- Love to all- Pat

 

Truly a tale of how the insubstantial is more real than the substantial. Grateful that you shared that.

I've always struggled with the notion of Karma within my own life, yet you seem to be settled on the experience of retribution as to acts in previous lives. So you are saying that eventhough you transformed through meditation, you still needed to repay your debt.

How can we repay karmic debt ourselves without it hitting us in the face first?

 

h

[Ian]

How can we repay karmic debt ourselves without it hitting us in the face first?

 

h

 

Surely you haven't forgotten that meditation pain you were enjoying a week or two back?

 

Inside, outside, same difference.

[hagar]

Surely you haven't forgotten that meditation pain you were enjoying a week or two back?

 

Inside, outside, same difference.

 

Is that your Haiku to me?

 

Well, the question was both meant rhetorically and not.

 

Still pondering how to answer. Painful as it is.

 

Outer and inner reality, I have found are two different realms alltogether. There definately is a discrepancy between what we face out there and in here. Yet at the same time, I wonder how outer reality, when we neglect to face our inner, seems to reunite us with the initial task.

 

h

[CarsonZi]

Hi hagar,

Outer and inner reality, I have found are two different realms alltogether. There definately is a discrepancy between what we face out there and in here. Yet at the same time, I wonder how outer reality, when we neglect to face our inner, seems to reunite us with the initial task.

In my opinion the outer reality will always mirror the inner reality. Everything outside of us is a projection of what is inside of us. If you feel angry, you will view the outer reality in a way that reflects that anger....same for any emotion/thought. The outer reality is just a projection of the inner reality and therefor the outer reality is constantly changing based on what you feel your inner reality is at the time. IMO anyways.

 

Love,

Carson

[Wayfarer64]

Hi hagar,

 

In my opinion the outer reality will always mirror the inner reality. Everything outside of us is a projection of what is inside of us. If you feel angry, you will view the outer reality in a way that reflects that anger....same for any emotion/thought. The outer reality is just a projection of the inner reality and therefor the outer reality is constantly changing based on what you feel your inner reality is at the time. IMO anyways.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

I am not so sure - my inner life was not so very dark at that time... I was not doing anything so reprehensible... Chasing women and smoking herb - pretty minor "transgressions", and only such as I was not being purely a cultivating spirit without real interest in the pleasures of our world...

 

I had only denigrated the KKK to a member... Perhaps I should have avoided him in the first place - tho I didn't know of his affiliation until I was attacked... That is why I believe that those tortures were merited due to past life experiences. Or perhaps they were meant just to strengthen my comprehension of realms beyond the physical - in that case it was a severly harsh lesson indeed!

 

So I am not sure that inner and outer realities are always in synch or relate as a mirror as stated - it just doesn't seem to fit...

 

It could be that such extraordinary experiences may just be evil coming upon us without any actual karmic influence - just evil attacking and trying to animate more evil by perpitrating hatred on our part... I do not know what the true cause was for that attack, other than my speaking ill of an organization that I could never speak well of ever...It may be as Ian is trying to say on another thread - speak NO ill ever of anyone - that would be very hard for me to do as a politically active person...

 

I hold no hatred now -only pity for those who attacked me - as I stated before they are in darkness always as hateful and very lost beings stuck at a level no one could wish for...

 

Relating back to the meaning of this thread - I am assured of my own spirit being able to stand the journey hence, I have been out of my body and now think of it as a release and a blessing to become a part of a new realm of existance in some (distant- I hope) future... I have a great love for this realm and this life I live - in the here and now - I feel that I still have much to learn and share and grow with/for at these levels, before I go on...or "back" to where I am only spirit without corporial splendors to share...

 

Love to all- Pat

[goldisheavy]

NDE's; neurons firing, proof of afterlife, or just plain makebelieve?

 

No neurons friend. It's just mind. What's almost impossible to understand, especially for most of the Western Philosophers, is that mind is not something in the brain. It is something primordial and it is not even "something" at all. Most of the Western Philo is strongly rooted in a doctrine of physicalist materialism, and this doctrine blocks the understanding of NDEs.

 

The mind can be structured via different possible (potential) mindsets. Depending on the mindset that's dominating, you appear as various beings. If you have a human mindset, you appear as a human. If you have a formless god mindset, you appear as a formless god (without a body or location in space). If you have a mindset of a squid you appear as a squid, and so on and so forth. Among humans there is a huge variety of mindsets. For example you can be a physicalist materialist, or you can be spiritual (the opposite or a complement of physicalist materialism) and so on.

 

Having a sense of "me" is just one experience. There is also an experience with "no-me", but it works against the potential of "me". In other words, no-me is related and dependent on me. So you know what you expect to find when you look for yourself. When you fail to find any of it, you experience the so-called no-me state of mind. In no-me state, either some or all familiar features are absent, but you are not stupid or in an oblivion, you understand intuitively what's happening, because the mind is ultimately omniscient.

 

Let's go back to the body for a second. What happens when your body changes to the point that begins to contradict your idea of the body-alive? Your mind can no longer associate with it, that's what. Deep in your mind you have a mindset that tells you what it means to be "alive in the body". When your body changes beyond that point, a disassociation occurs. Now, when I say "disassociation", I don't mean your body is left on the side and your mind flies away. What I mean is that the vision of the body either dissolves slowly or spontaneously collapses. The body is not ultimately real, do you see? What happens to your dream body when you wake up? Where is it? The same thing happens to this body after death.

 

Whether you consider NDE real or not depends on your validation framework. Validation framework is a mindset that separates your experience into real and unreal. It's what tells you that something must be a hallucination, "because there is no way it can't be real." Validation framework is something that you can learn to control, but for most people it is something that's a product of their culture and past "lives" or just past time. It's kind of like a mind habit.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited February 18, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Wayfarer64]

Hi hagar,

 

In my opinion the outer reality will always mirror the inner reality. Everything outside of us is a projection of what is inside of us. If you feel angry, you will view the outer reality in a way that reflects that anger....same for any emotion/thought. The outer reality is just a projection of the inner reality and therefor the outer reality is constantly changing based on what you feel your inner reality is at the time. IMO anyways.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

I really doubt this is the case. There are 1/4 million dolphins killed by drift nets every year. There were millions of innocents murdered by the nazis, Pol Pot, Ne Win, and G.W. Bush. Native Americans and the American Bison were driven to near extinction. I do not believe these beings were victimized because of their inner lives being escew in any way. They were victims of people who behaved in an evil manner.

 

Do not be naive, not everything is so very self-centered as you seem to indicate above... we are inter-active not self contained beings, and there are dangers to be aware of that do not stem from anything within ourselves.

[CarsonZi]

You are intitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine. I choose to see the outer reality as a reflection of the inner one. Sometimes this hurts the pride/ego, but this is reality to me. To you it isn't. So be it.

 

Love,

Carson

[Wayfarer64]

You are intitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine. I choose to see the outer reality as a reflection of the inner one. Sometimes this hurts the pride/ego, but this is reality to me. To you it isn't. So be it.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

I also doubt that reality can be changed by our opinions