Alchemy and pain, pain, pain

[hagar]

There are times to review practice, as I have been forced to the last month or so. The conclusion is that I'm pretty much at loss as knowing if I'm backsliding or progressing and after approx. 15 years or so, this should probably have been figured out.

 

One aspect that I find particularly challenging is pain during my internal alchemy practice. Aspiring to sitting the prescribed 1hour 15 min sessions daily, this are the basic phases that I go through every time:

After a phase of relaxation, dozing off and then a short glimpse of connectedness, it's time to go to hell. or atleast Purgatorio.

 

What I wonder is if there are ways to stay with the pain, yet not get all consumed by it. I am only able to do so in for seconds at the time. Are there any tips to breathing techniques to open and soften the intense tension and effort that comes up?

 

Another questions is how, if any one here does sitting alchemical practice, experience the physical effects of the practice. I wonder if this is spesific to my own form of meditation or universal?

 

The sensation is quite spesific: Pain, as if permeating the marrow, and all tissue and ligaments, in addition to triggering emotional and physical blockages (old injuries etc) The whole shebang lights up like a Christmas tree, and it is by far the most challenging form of practice I have ever done. Just being with this until the buzzer goes of and my time is over actually makes me eat my pillow. I really do not have any way of staying with the pain without going off into spontaneous movements.

 

So how do you stay with pain folks?

 

h

[thelerner]

Hard to give advice to someone more advanced then me. When itchy I scratch, when pained I howl and get up .

 

I have some deep guided meditations for dealing with pain by Anne Wise. One in particular puts you under and has you get into a conversation with the pain's source. If there's a partly psychological basis for it then there is a chance to work it out.

 

Let me know if you're interested in it. Anne Wise's work is excellent.

 

 

Michael

[Aetherous]

It could be that when we come upon pain, we transmute it over time and practice. Or it could be that pain is a pathway that leads to our fear of death, which is the gateway to the infinite mind, if we have the desire enough to stay with it and step through. So maybe the path to enlightenment is about dissolving karmas over a billion lifetimes, or maybe it's about transcending them in one moment.

[hagar]

Hard to give advice to someone more advanced then me. When itchy I scratch, when pained I howl and get up .

 

I have some deep guided meditations for dealing with pain by Anne Wise. One in particular puts you under and has you get into a conversation with the pain's source. If there's a partly psychological basis for it then there is a chance to work it out.

 

Let me know if you're interested in it. Anne Wise's work is excellent.

Michael

 

Your modesty aside, I'm as advanced as a teenager on a saturday night.

 

Yes I'm interested. As there is defiate psycho-aspect at the base of this.

Some effects are something approaching weeping, yet its "physical" weeping without tears, almost like something energetic is gasping for air. I don't know what the heck I'm going through and probably shoud go see my Masta. Yet my karma tells me otherwise...

 

Thanks for sharing

h

 

It could be that when we come upon pain, we transmute it over time and practice. Or it could be that pain is a pathway that leads to our fear of death, which is the gateway to the infinite mind, if we have the desire enough to stay with it and step through. So maybe the path to enlightenment is about dissolving karmas over a billion lifetimes, or maybe it's about transcending them in one moment.

 

Reflects my own thoughs, yet smuch more adequately put.

 

The stepping though is what I'm working at, as it obviously is somewhere else than where I expect.

For me it points to my connectedness with the body, and my dependence.

 

Staying with the clinging and pain even for one moment with some form of dignity brings tremedous freedom. As this dignity is connected with Grace.

 

Yet these are too big words for me right now, stuck in my hellish realm..

 

Thanks

 

h

[NeutralWire]

If there's a partly psychological basis for it then there is a chance to work it out.

 

See, that right there is the reason I posted a topic about self-knowledge. I personally (must stress that -- personally) always found it considerably harder to begin with a blocked bodily/energetic process and somehow understand the life pattern it represents. Whereas when I started by looking at life patterns, I found that processes would unblock of themselves, meaning far less painfully.

 

Myself, I wouldn't continue to grit my teeth through pain like that. I would sit in stillness and allow a reply from below the diaphragm, and see if I could gain some insight. From this:

 

yet its "physical" weeping without tears, almost like something energetic is gasping for air.

 

.. it sounds a little similar to something I have had involving the upper part of the sternum. If so look for issues of speaking your mind, being true to yourself, and thinking life is worthwhile. That may seem vague, if so I apologize!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[joeblast]

have spontaneous movements helped at all? for me, they are a balancing thing - static forms or even sittin ghtere builds up a potential of sorts, and spontaneous movement seems to smooth it out. could it be that your 'body isnt ready' for 'deep alchemical sessions', as such?

[Aetherous]

The stepping though is what I'm working at, as it obviously is somewhere else than where I expect.

For me it points to my connectedness with the body, and my dependence.

 

Just from my experience...

 

When the fear of death comes, you have to let your body go in order to step through. The actual step is not located anywhere, and it's more like it comes to you than you coming to it. The final letting go before reaching the infinite is not done by us. A wind suddenly rushes up behind us and blows us through the gate.

 

So staying with the pain and not blocking it out is the first step down the path...then you keep making steps (keep staying alert and allowing the pain to be there) until eventually the gate appears. You start seriously fearing for your life, having real thoughts of "what if I don't survive this?" In order to make the step through, you have to be committed to giving up everything, including your own life. You have to actually want enlightenment more than life. So just keep letting go.

 

It will get progressively harder as the minutes go by.

 

Then at the very last moment, it's let go for us (Grace). It can be excruciating right up until then....and once it happens it's totally weird.

 

I guess it could help to not plan to practice everyday: but as of this very moment give up the rest of your life and be determined to attain enlightenment at this very sitting. Don't move until it's done.

 

Just some ideas.

[Ian]

There are times to review practice, as I have been forced to the last month or so. The conclusion is that I'm pretty much at loss as knowing if I'm backsliding or progressing and after approx. 15 years or so, this should probably have been figured out.

 

One aspect that I find particularly challenging is pain during my internal alchemy practice. Aspiring to sitting the prescribed 1hour 15 min sessions daily, this are the basic phases that I go through every time:

After a phase of relaxation, dozing off and then a short glimpse of connectedness, it's time to go to hell. or atleast Purgatorio.

 

What I wonder is if there are ways to stay with the pain, yet not get all consumed by it. I am only able to do so in for seconds at the time. Are there any tips to breathing techniques to open and soften the intense tension and effort that comes up?

 

Another questions is how, if any one here does sitting alchemical practice, experience the physical effects of the practice. I wonder if this is spesific to my own form of meditation or universal?

 

The sensation is quite spesific: Pain, as if permeating the marrow, and all tissue and ligaments, in addition to triggering emotional and physical blockages (old injuries etc) The whole shebang lights up like a Christmas tree, and it is by far the most challenging form of practice I have ever done. Just being with this until the buzzer goes of and my time is over actually makes me eat my pillow. I really do not have any way of staying with the pain without going off into spontaneous movements.

 

So how do you stay with pain folks?

 

h

 

I don't know your practice, so I can just throw in a few things I've been taught that may or may not be relevant.

 

1) I'm told it is good not to know what or how you are doing, at least while you're doing it.

 

2) For dealing with pain I have had it suggested, in no particular order, and certainly not all at once:

 

Be soft.

Spread awareness out to include more than the pain.

Stop and do movements.

Take the perspective that you made the pain and it's your job/opportunity to love it until it's had enough love. Allow spontaneous movements, so long as they don't distract you from being soft and spread.

Assume those seconds at a time of doing what you think you should be doing are in fact a damn good achievement and just keep repeating them as often as you can...

 

And that's about it. I don't do anything alchemical, as far as I know, but my practice does involve pain, when done properly, and on the rare occasions I do it properly enough to get serious pain it throws me completely.

[Ya Mu]

 

 

... I really do not have any way of staying with the pain without going off into spontaneous movements.

 

So how do you stay with pain folks?

 

h

 

What happens when you allow spontaneous movement instead of fighting it?

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[Trunk]

Part of my path has been dealing with a 'long term health project' that involved chronic pain. Couple of the things that helped me:

1. vibration platform (link)

This might be too expensive and not really needed for some people. For me, desperately needed and huge help, fast results. Considering how much I'd spent on dr's, etc., this was like nothing. And I get to keep it.

 

 

2. Self-acupressure

.. has been paying off gradually and steadily. Things that used to get stuck just have all these avenues to go, and come back around with a happier vibe. The result is showing up in most of my other practices. Broad pay-off. Reliable. Slow. Easy to get started but to become really competent requires a daunting long term study project (at least that's how it looks so far).

Edited February 3, 2009 by Trunk

[hagar]

See, that right there is the reason I posted a topic about self-knowledge. I personally (must stress that -- personally) always found it considerably harder to begin with a blocked bodily/energetic process and somehow understand the life pattern it represents. Whereas when I started by looking at life patterns, I found that processes would unblock of themselves, meaning far less painfully.

 

Myself, I wouldn't continue to grit my teeth through pain like that. I would sit in stillness and allow a reply from below the diaphragm, and see if I could gain some insight. From this:

.. it sounds a little similar to something I have had involving the upper part of the sternum. If so look for issues of speaking your mind, being true to yourself, and thinking life is worthwhile. That may seem vague, if so I apologize!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

It rings true to me that going within the essential information gives more real and lasting effect than working peripherally. So when ou say work at the "self" I'd guess working towards cleansing the light, and the space intstead of just dusting off the sliverware is, as you said, a more direct way to go. The alchemical process though, tends to shift this towards working within the microcosm, and integrating the space, light, fire and water. How this feels is another matter.

Think gritting my teeth is something i've done, and yes, should be avoided.

Rings true what you said about the source of the "weeping".

 

thank you for the feedback

 

 

have spontaneous movements helped at all? for me, they are a balancing thing - static forms or even sittin ghtere builds up a potential of sorts, and spontaneous movement seems to smooth it out. could it be that your 'body isnt ready' for 'deep alchemical sessions', as such?

 

Spontaneous movements are a way to go, and they definately open and even out the energy, yet for me they have been such a trodden path for years that they feel like a detour, and a more direct approach is just to stick with the form of it. It is a helpful crutch. And if forces me to deal with the essential instead of going off into whatever strange or bizarre pretzel like yoga postures that might pop up.

It may be that I try to force things, as you said.

 

h

 

Just from my experience...

 

When the fear of death comes, you have to let your body go in order to step through. The actual step is not located anywhere, and it's more like it comes to you than you coming to it. The final letting go before reaching the infinite is not done by us. A wind suddenly rushes up behind us and blows us through the gate.

 

So staying with the pain and not blocking it out is the first step down the path...then you keep making steps (keep staying alert and allowing the pain to be there) until eventually the gate appears. You start seriously fearing for your life, having real thoughts of "what if I don't survive this?" In order to make the step through, you have to be committed to giving up everything, including your own life. You have to actually want enlightenment more than life. So just keep letting go.

 

It will get progressively harder as the minutes go by.

 

Then at the very last moment, it's let go for us (Grace). It can be excruciating right up until then....and once it happens it's totally weird.

 

I guess it could help to not plan to practice everyday: but as of this very moment give up the rest of your life and be determined to attain enlightenment at this very sitting. Don't move until it's done.

 

Just some ideas.

 

Wonderful. It has an uncanny resemblance to what I have felt in standing static practices and sometimes also as I sit. Yet this boilingpoint, or threshold, as I feel it is, is something I truly dread, and yes, I too have the feeling of dying. I think the process itself, as you so nicely put it, is not over till it's done, and the don't move part is infinately harder than I think. Always. And in the midst of it, all the stuff that I feel just gets in the way comes up and cries for attention. So maybe I'm overextending myself, and need to sort things out, or I just need to stay with it and let the chi take over, finally.

 

h

 

I don't know your practice, so I can just throw in a few things I've been taught that may or may not be relevant.

 

1) I'm told it is good not to know what or how you are doing, at least while you're doing it.

 

2) For dealing with pain I have had it suggested, in no particular order, and certainly not all at once:

 

Be soft.

Spread awareness out to include more than the pain.

Stop and do movements.

Take the perspective that you made the pain and it's your job/opportunity to love it until it's had enough love. Allow spontaneous movements, so long as they don't distract you from being soft and spread.

Assume those seconds at a time of doing what you think you should be doing are in fact a damn good achievement and just keep repeating them as often as you can...

 

And that's about it. I don't do anything alchemical, as far as I know, but my practice does involve pain, when done properly, and on the rare occasions I do it properly enough to get serious pain it throws me completely.

 

As for nr.1; I know. It's never good to know. Sometimes it'd be good to be sure that there's a point to it all though. The aloneness is hard in practice.

 

As for 2: I will definately soften, as your words ring true. Unconsciously, pain makes me fight, as that is an easier option that opening. And opening probalby is not possible without softness.

 

I remember asking Max about this (about how to deal with pain) and he just said it was blocked energy that would open after a while. In retrospect, I may have understated my case.

 

h

 

 

I remember very vividly how I used to do these little experiments as a young child. I particularly remember playing with hot and cold water. When I came to england I saw, for the first time in my life, a sink with separate hot and cold taps!

 

It was a revelation - so I liked to play - see how long I could stand the hot or cold water, or both together or one and then another...

 

and although I never thought of it like this at the time, but I learned all about physical relativity... I would find fascinating paradoxes - like having one hand under the hot tap and another under the cold tap would, after a while, produce almost the same sensation - the same level of 'intense sensing'.

 

This 'intense sensing' was something I started to be curious about. Not only sensing very strong sensations, but also sensing strongly very subtle sensations. With my hand under the tap I would sense every sensation available in my hand - this would produce a certain state - I guess kind of meditative - I wasn't always be completely silent inside, but when a thought did arise it would be very loud, bright and brash compared with the deep silence and space in between the thoughts... In this state I would get so curious about any change in sensation, that if you suddenly asked me whether the tap was hot or cold, I wouldn't be able to answer... if you asked whether I was feeling intense pain or pleasure, I wouldn't be able to answer...

 

try it. What you want to achieve at first is a kind of 'zooming in' effect (kinesthetically) - so you feel that you can get closer and closer and closer to the pain... more and more intimate. This (either involves or) results in feeling every tiny sensation to its fullest - so no numbing it out or trying to distract yourself from it - but it's like zooming in, or turning the volume up. It can start as something intensely unbearable - every little bit of you wants to pull back away from it. It feels like if you carry on opening to it, you might die...

 

I found that at a certain point you lose all concerns - you die you die. You lose all measure of pain or pleasure - all that you feel is 'sensation' - pleasure and pain don't seem to make sense... neither does hot or cold.

 

When I would reach this state the 'zooming in' or 'turning the volume up' also became paradoxical... I found that what was 'loudest' would be the silence... or when zooming in rather than finding more and more distinct details I would find more gaps, more space...

 

And this is what I experiment with these days - I play with the space in my body... I play with 'intense sensing' - very similar to you with your overwhelming pain, but mine is with overwhelming bliss (I know that sounds like a way better deal - but I suspect when 'intense sensing' they're actually both as frightening)... I tentatively suspect that if you allowed spontaneous movement, you'd reach intense bliss (again - no better - and might be unsuitable for your path)

 

Anyway - I'm rambling like a senile masochist

 

PS - just read back... is this masochist indirectly talking about basic alchemy too?

 

Funny. Did the same thing with the old hot and cold taps here in Norway.

Reached a slightly similar conclusion, yet I always settled with the feeling they were both essentially cold.

 

What you said about closing in to you are finally totally present in the pain is something I'd try out. I think i bail when I react instead of open. Yet it is difficult to put into words. Pain is not the same. My physical pain is possibly approachable in that way, yet the emo and energetic pain is way harder to access up close.

As for bliss vs pain, I'd never really felt bliss without the other, and probably they are mutually dependent. But am I wrong. No bliss without some degree of pain? Or is there Pure bliss?

 

 

 

 

Part of my path has been dealing with a 'long term health project' that involved chronic pain. Couple of the things that helped me:

1. vibration platform (link)

This might be too expensive and not really needed for some people. For me, desperately needed and huge help, fast results. Considering how much I'd spent on dr's, etc., this was like nothing. And I get to keep it.

 

 

2. Self-acupressure

.. has been paying off gradually and steadily. Things that used to get stuck just have all these avenues to go, and come back around with a happier vibe. The result is showing up in most of my other practices. Broad pay-off. Reliable. Slow. Easy to get started but to become really competent requires a daunting long term study project (at least that's how it looks so far).

 

I'm all ears for the self- acupressure, and especially if you have anything for the groin/hip/sacral area. How about some web resources related to the triggerpoints?

 

h

[rain]

hey you beautiful people. I read about the pain. and reflections, and have..questions?

 

you speak about I think being in the pain instead of being bugged by the pain?

and somehow ..dying in the process. this dying? I cannot quite relate. or can I?

 

when I go into the pain it is..like I realize that IT isnt me but I go into it and become like One with it anyway.

then I experience that it isnt like fixed or immobile, but it does vibrate an it does fluctuate and move and dissapear and reappear..

 

it was only fixed and constant as a response to my fixation or resistance..

I can bear that. I can like that it isnt dead or trying to kill me LOL it has a life and a voice?

if I forget myself, that is, knowing no thing me, this pain.. starts to come to life in a most digesteable and transmuting way. so who dies? please I would like to understand better.

 

cough.

 

I do understand one thing though. It ssems to go hunting for me..heh.

and my sense of humour has..broadened, its a mighty hungry ..heh..cough..something.

yawn its getting late.

 

cough. I'm not lying. I'm just ..full of it.

Edited February 3, 2009 by rain

[Ya Mu]

There are times to review practice, as I have been forced to the last month or so. The conclusion is that I'm pretty much at loss as knowing if I'm backsliding or progressing and after approx. 15 years or so, this should probably have been figured out.

 

One aspect that I find particularly challenging is pain during my internal alchemy practice. Aspiring to sitting the prescribed 1hour 15 min sessions daily, this are the basic phases that I go through every time:

After a phase of relaxation, dozing off and then a short glimpse of connectedness, it's time to go to hell. or atleast Purgatorio.

 

What I wonder is if there are ways to stay with the pain, yet not get all consumed by it. I am only able to do so in for seconds at the time. Are there any tips to breathing techniques to open and soften the intense tension and effort that comes up?

 

Another questions is how, if any one here does sitting alchemical practice, experience the physical effects of the practice. I wonder if this is spesific to my own form of meditation or universal?

 

The sensation is quite spesific: Pain, as if permeating the marrow, and all tissue and ligaments, in addition to triggering emotional and physical blockages (old injuries etc) The whole shebang lights up like a Christmas tree, and it is by far the most challenging form of practice I have ever done. Just being with this until the buzzer goes of and my time is over actually makes me eat my pillow. I really do not have any way of staying with the pain without going off into spontaneous movements.

 

So how do you stay with pain folks?

 

h

 

If spontaneous movement helps do not suppress it. Are there any medical qigong therapists/doctors nearby? A few sessions should help you with balance of energetics and allow the qi to flow without sticking. This should help a lot.

[Trunk]

I'm all ears for the self- acupressure, and especially if you have anything for the groin/hip/sacral area.

Start with the Liver channel. And there's various stuff if you hunt around starting here.

 

All the pts of the little orbit are critical. Hui-yin sometimes gets discarded because of the million$ pt rap, but it's super important to massage in a non-aroused context. I suggest getting a vibrating massage device for the sacrum. Something with a flat massage surface that has a low-gentle-vibrate setting. I think there are some that are quite inexpensive.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Trunk

[seadog]

um hope you don't mind this dumb question Hagar,because I have always valued your input.

Do you exprience this pain only when you are partakeing in alchemy practice or is it something you exprience at other times.

Say when your lieing in bed or playing with family and friends?

[sheng zhen]

What is your sitting posistion Hagar? Is it pain from full lotus or do you feel pain just by sitting still on a chair?

 

If its sitting still on chair kind of pain you should probably see a doctor or get some bodywork. But if its lotus-pain mabye its possible to ease up a little on the position until it gets less painful, and then move a little deeper into it. I dont know what rules you play by in your practice...

 

I think it was De Paradise that said he use a pillow and with that he clocks in hours upon hours of silent sitting

[hagar]

hey you beautiful people. I read about the pain. and reflections, and have..questions?

 

you speak about I think being in the pain instead of being bugged by the pain?

and somehow ..dying in the process. this dying? I cannot quite relate. or can I?

 

when I go into the pain it is..like I realize that IT isnt me but I go into it and become like One with it anyway.

then I experience that it isnt like fixed or immobile, but it does vibrate an it does fluctuate and move and dissapear and reappear..

 

it was only fixed and constant as a response to my fixation or resistance..

I can bear that. I can like that it isnt dead or trying to kill me LOL it has a life and a voice?

if I forget myself, that is, knowing no thing me, this pain.. starts to come to life in a most digesteable and transmuting way. so who dies? please I would like to understand better.

 

cough.

 

I do understand one thing though. It ssems to go hunting for me..heh.

and my sense of humour has..broadened, its a mighty hungry ..heh..cough..something.

yawn its getting late.

 

cough. I'm not lying. I'm just ..full of it.

 

Ops!!

This thread was only partially about my own pain, and hopefully about pain in practice in general. Seems like I twisted it into the former too much which has little or no over all relevance. My apologies for that.

 

Rain;

 

Not identifying with the pain is also a good reminder, as I tend to do that sometimes when I am not aware that I relate to it as "me" unconsciously, mostly because I view it as so bad it needs to be "solved". What is really hard for me is not trusting how the pain, or blockage experence actually shifts all the time and that it needs no real effort, only ease.

 

As for the dying, it is mostly a chi experience, not a psychological thing. I can relate to letting go and let the body die in the fact that as long as I feel the body wants to be in control, the chi cannot take over, and you will never get "fully boiled". Like the water that only simmers, and never reaches 90 degree. When finally I can let go, open fully to the pain, slip through the "gate" and let the chi take over, the body "dies" (i.e does not interfere) and viola, you're in another place alltogether. Only happened to me a couple of times, and then I got help. A reassuring thing is that when the water is boiled, it is never the same.

 

h

 

If spontaneous movement helps do not suppress it. Are there any medical qigong therapists/doctors nearby? A few sessions should help you with balance of energetics and allow the qi to flow without sticking. This should help a lot.

 

In relation to spontaneous movements they tend to be an end in themselves for me. In that sense they become an obstacle, since I tend to feel that spontaneous movements are more "true" and expression of something more real. So I work at letting go of relying too much on them as they can only take you so far. At one point, it's time to stop dancing in one place and actually walking in some direction to get somewhere. Atleast that's how it feels for me. I may ease the pain, yet it will prolong the phase that I have been so comfortable with; escaping my blindspots of chi blockages and other baggage that needs my care.

 

But maybe I'm being to hard on mylself, and should allow some more movement.

Oslo is not overcrowded with qigong therapists, yet there's a TCM center I could look up.

 

Start with the Liver channel. And there's various stuff if you hunt around starting here.

 

All the pts of the little orbit are critical. Hui-yin sometimes gets discarded because of the million$ pt rap, but it's super important to massage in a non-aroused context. I suggest getting a vibrating massage device for the sacrum. Something with a flat massage surface that has a low-gentle-vibrate setting. I think there are some that are quite inexpensive.

 

Thank you T!

Great to get some real info on that subject, and your site is such a valuable resource.

As for the small orbit, it gets a little weird. Even though the last week or so has been excruciating, the sacrum and hips feels like they are much more open and clean in a strange way, as I am sure that the Hui Yin has been activated in my sittings. Which brings me back to the fact that this point is essential for alchemical purposes, as it releases the impure Yin. I've also started massaging the sacrum alot unconsciously, so that advice is probably right on.

 

h

 

um hope you don't mind this dumb question Hagar,because I have always valued your input.

Do you exprience this pain only when you are partakeing in alchemy practice or is it something you exprience at other times.

Say when your lieing in bed or playing with family and friends?

 

Hm, I guess I've had the experience mostly in different form of sitting meditations, yet if I am completely honest it has an uncanny connection to being honest and sincere, and being put on the spot.

I have been in alot of life situations where I have been intensely put on the spot and there's no escape, atleast with dignity intact. Really terrible there and then, just like my sitting practice, so your question is pointing to something.

 

h

[rain]

Hagar.

I find your reflections on spontaneous moves interesting. I've noticed through my strickt static luohan poses that in ignoring the suggestions to move, keeping the pose, inward boiling ignites.

[hagar]

What is your sitting posistion Hagar? Is it pain from full lotus or do you feel pain just by sitting still on a chair?

 

If its sitting still on chair kind of pain you should probably see a doctor or get some bodywork. But if its lotus-pain mabye its possible to ease up a little on the position until it gets less painful, and then move a little deeper into it. I dont know what rules you play by in your practice...

 

I think it was De Paradise that said he use a pillow and with that he clocks in hours upon hours of silent sitting

 

Full lotus!?

I have used the last decade getting into the half lotus.

Yet this is bad enough. I have a long track record of not stretching after weeks and months of alpine skiing every day. Need I say more.

 

Then pain is not there in standard sitting.

But the easing, and then moving deeper I will try.

 

h

 

Hagar.

I find your reflections on spontaneous moves interesting. I've noticed through my strickt static luohan poses that in ignoring the suggestions to move, keeping the pose, inward boiling ignites.

 

Exactomundo.

 

That's the basic setup:

Spontaneous movement uses accumulated chi to smooth out and integrate the physical/jing aspects of the system

 

Static/still positions does exactly what you say: Boil you. And that's the exact words my teacher told me. Let the body die, bring your system to a boil, and see what happens. One position that I have actually done this in is standing with hands straight above my head. After about 40 to 50 min, the pain gets so bad I feel like passing out, and then I can stand there forever. And it feels wonderful. But the sitting is way worse.

 

h

[sheng zhen]

Full lotus!?

I have used the last decade getting into the half lotus.

Yet this is bad enough. I have a long track record of not stretching after weeks and months of alpine skiing every day. Need I say more.

 

Then pain is not there in standard sitting.

But the easing, and then moving deeper I will try.

 

h

haha, so its the regular norwegian stiffness you are suffering from! I have that problem to... but I got a long way with some simple stretching

[freeform]

hmmm... escaping with dignity intact...

 

what would happen if you lost your dignity?

 

what does having dignity stay intact give you that is more important than the dignity itself?

 

(you don't have to answer these in the open of course - just some things that might have gone unnoticed)

 

 

About getting in intimate contact with energetic/emotional pain... for me this works differently (although it does lead to the same 'intense sensing' state).

 

Rather than moving in really close, I tend to treat the hurt as an individual entity - like a small part of me - kind of like a young child or a frightened animal. So rather than getting close to it, I invite it to come closer to me. I literally treat it like a child - being gentle, smiling, being patient, compassionate and inviting it to come out into the light of awareness.

 

The thing is - when it does start coming out of its hiding place (where the pain can be thought of as the armour of protection) you need to give it as much time and space as it needs... this means going easy on yourself - not sticking to hard rules - holding postures, or keeping attention in one place... you kind of let it unravel by itself and for this to happen you have to be very yin and open to any spontaneous movements or memories or stories (or even songs or chants or noises). Any resolution - I've found - has always resulted in a kind of "AHA!!" experience - not wordy. Also profound stillness. If this doesn't happen and I need to end my session - I say thank you and that I will be back...

 

This is all from my experience of course...

[dao zhen]

What do you practice?

 

I think in an authentic method, there is a usually a very systematic practice to follow.

 

In the system that was passed on to me, the practice is outlined as follows:

 

1. How to Still the Mind - Resting the Mind Will in the Lower Dantian

 

2. Hand Posture and Hand Mudra Forms to Open the Meridian System

 

3. Transformation of Jing to Qi

 

4. Harvest of Yang Qi

 

5. Small Water Wheel

 

6. Etc...

 

Pain is usually present in the legs and lower back, knees, tendons and other spots in the first stages mainly due to the closed meridian system.

 

You have to work through this stage.

 

I experienced HUGE pain in my first 25 day training retreat, but I did not have a lot of experience in sitting.

 

While passing through the pain phase, I found regulation of the breath to help a lot - while we also had to hold "extended" hand postures, and this helped to "push" through the pain so to speak....

 

In this system, the meridian system can generally be opened in around 7 days - doing full time practice of sitting with hand posture forms - 3 sessions a day -

 

Once the opening of the meridians begins to take place generally around day 4 to day 7, the body takes on a feeling of being very light, soft and open - then you begin to feel you can sit for a longer and longer time with no discomfort.

 

Pain is less and less, and then as you keep practicing, feelings of more lightness of body, and pleasurable states come on the scene....

 

YET, as mostly we live in society, and can have emotional reactions, the meridian system can get blocked and closed again - so generally we must practice the hand postures and mudras for some time before we just sit in total stillness with no hand posture forms.

 

We were taught NOT to just sit in a stillness posture till the meridian system is opened, and there is a strong and natural flow of Qi through the entire system.

 

Just sitting in a stillness posture without laying a proper foundation may result in one not moving in the proper direction of growth in practice.

 

Yet everyone is unique, and we can not say anything in an absolute manner.

[joeblast]

 

Exactomundo.

 

That's the basic setup:

Spontaneous movement uses accumulated chi to smooth out and integrate the physical/jing aspects of the system

 

Static/still positions does exactly what you say: Boil you. And that's the exact words my teacher told me. Let the body die, bring your system to a boil, and see what happens. One position that I have actually done this in is standing with hands straight above my head. After about 40 to 50 min, the pain gets so bad I feel like passing out, and then I can stand there forever. And it feels wonderful. But the sitting is way worse.

 

h

that's kinda what I had in mind before...something I do is build up, smooth out, build up, smooth out...and after a while there are plateaus where you've built up enough and smoothed out enough that there is some deep, simmering stillness in there (probably akin to the increase in temp when you boil water...and when its built up enough, energy input doesnt increase the temp quite as much because its being 'funneled into state change energy'...

[Aetherous]

I think people are confusing different practices here. If you want to cultivate a good qi flow, you're going to be doing something totally different than shikantaza. If you want to do shikantaza, you're going to be doing something totally different than vipassana, etc.

 

Yes at the core of all spiritual practices there is the same path and result, but those practices aren't similar at all in some cases.

 

You can either sit totally still, or allow spontaneous movement. You can confront your deepest fears by being present with the pain, or focus on diminishing the pain by working on your meridians with different mudras.

 

You can't mix them all together.