Alchemy and pain, pain, pain

[gendao]

All the pts of the little orbit are critical. Hui-yin sometimes gets discarded because of the million$ pt rap, but it's super important to massage in a non-aroused context. I suggest getting a vibrating massage device for the sacrum. Something with a flat massage surface that has a low-gentle-vibrate setting. I think there are some that are quite inexpensive.

Hey, when you twiddle your thumbs, what direction do you go? Like say you were riding a bike, would it be like the wheels spinning if you were going forward or backward?

[Trunk]

btw, the Liver channel wraps around the genitals "like a net", rises and intersects with the conception vessel at several of the lower pts and then inner aspects of the channel go up to the head. The GB channel encircles the genitals, enters deeply, and emerges at the sacrum. The wood element (liv + gb) is very entwined with the water element (kid + ub). And the wood element is a lot about flow, resolving stuckness. In TCM pain is often a result of things being stuck, "ouch!, won't move". We've been distracted by popular presentations and have missed some very basic stuff.

 

Hey, when you twiddle your thumbs, what direction do you go? Like say you were riding a bike, would it be like the wheels spinning if you were going forward or backward?

Either way. Not important, imo.

 

What's important is that you go at a lazy pace and that your skin receives cycles of touching less~more. This prompts pulsing.. of blood, of qi.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Trunk

[NeutralWire]

We've been distracted by popular presentations and have missed some very basic stuff.

 

Not all of us mate, not all of us... what I think is so funny is that Stephen Chang was advocating learning the 12 ordinaries before anyone had ever heard of Mantak. That's where I got the idea I think.

[dao zhen]

I think the big problem by my observation is people have bits and pieces of information, and are trying to put them together.

 

Like feeling around in a dark room, trying to find something..........

 

There is not a "complete view" of practice.

 

Another big problem in the area of Taoist Alchemy Practice in the West is that people view visualization as a part of the practice, when in reality, it is a false one.

 

Using the Mind Will to direct the Qi in the Ren and Du channel has often been termed the "False Water Wheel", by the few Taoist Adepts I met in China.

 

You want to circulate the "External Medicine" in the Water Wheel, so first you have to begin cultivation and "Harvest of Yang Qi."

 

Yet, without having practiced something we may term, "True Practice", people are happy to keep using visualization, or other methods that gain no real resulats, thinking they are walking along the road.

 

I think practices like Vipasana can be a good foundation for learning Alchemy Meditation later on, though it is not needed.

 

As people may learn to still the mind will, or thought of in another light, to bring the mind will back to a unified force, rather than a scattered force.

 

In the very end, we should be practical.

 

Do you get results right away from the practice?

 

By my observation in 90% of people, when engaged in a True Practice, results should be gained in a matter of 4 - 12 days.

 

If you do a method for months and months, and nothing is really happening (such as VERY strong Qi flow, transformation of Jing, and the above lead or pull one to a deep state of stillness) - then it is time to take an honest look at what you practice.

 

 

I think people are confusing different practices here. If you want to cultivate a good qi flow, you're going to be doing something totally different than shikantaza. If you want to do shikantaza, you're going to be doing something totally different than vipassana, etc.

 

Yes at the core of all spiritual practices there is the same path and result, but those practices aren't similar at all in some cases.

 

You can either sit totally still, or allow spontaneous movement. You can confront your deepest fears by being present with the pain, or focus on diminishing the pain by working on your meridians with different mudras.

 

You can't mix them all together.

[mantis]

I think the big problem by my observation is people have bits and pieces of information, and are trying to put them together.

 

Like feeling around in a dark room, trying to find something..........

 

There is not a "complete view" of practice.

 

Another big problem in the area of Taoist Alchemy Practice in the West is that people view visualization as a part of the practice, when in reality, it is a false one.

 

Using the Mind Will to direct the Qi in the Ren and Du channel has often been termed the "False Water Wheel", by the few Taoist Adepts I met in China.

 

You want to circulate the "External Medicine" in the Water Wheel, so first you have to begin cultivation and "Harvest of Yang Qi."

 

Yet, without having practiced something we may term, "True Practice", people are happy to keep using visualization, or other methods that gain no real resulats, thinking they are walking along the road.

 

I think practices like Vipasana can be a good foundation for learning Alchemy Meditation later on, though it is not needed.

 

As people may learn to still the mind will, or thought of in another light, to bring the mind will back to a unified force, rather than a scattered force.

 

In the very end, we should be practical.

 

Do you get results right away from the practice?

 

By my observation in 90% of people, when engaged in a True Practice, results should be gained in a matter of 4 - 12 days.

 

If you do a method for months and months, and nothing is really happening (such as VERY strong Qi flow, transformation of Jing, and the above lead or pull one to a deep state of stillness) - then it is time to take an honest look at what you practice.

 

how long do you practice for? i think that is a huge factor as well.

[Todd]

 

So how do you stay with pain folks?

 

 

First, I let go of the idea that I am supposed to stay with the pain. I become curious about the fact that I am sitting here, in pain, and I have not gotten up. Apparently there is something that is ok with the fact that I am experiencing pain. I get as deep a sense as I can for this aspect of being. I double check. This deepest aspect of myself, does it have a problem with this pain? Does it want me to move, or to get up? If it does, I do, but often it doesn't.

 

It can be kind've funny when the pain gets intense and yet there is just stillness and ok-ness at the level of being that is really running the show.

 

In my experience there is no real defined way that pain is dealt with/responded to/experienced. The key is to remain true to the deepest calling, in its mystery.

 

My experience is also that the quality of the pain that I experience has changed a lot, such that it rarely shows up in my legs anymore (its moved to my back and chest, but is way less intense). Progress? Who knows?

[dao zhen]

how long do you practice for? i think that is a huge factor as well.

 

For students who are just starting out, in our system, we sit for 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 min or so - 3 sessions a day at morning / afternoon / evening -

 

This time period is slowly lengthened.

 

The student will spend half of the sitting session holding the hand postures to open the meridians, and building a balanced Qi (stillness quality / medium quality / active quality - combined - ) , then the last half is sitting in stillness, and letting this Qi naturally run its course.

 

*** This is a tried and true method that opens the energy channels quickly - and if the method is followed correctly, the student can experience sitting for one hour or longer in the begining with not a lot of pain.

 

Pain is caused by closed meridians, and lack of circulation of Qi.

 

Personally, I try now and sit through a good period of the night - 2 - 3 hours in a session - rest, or lie down, then sit up again.

 

This is interspersed with periods of practice lying on the back at times.

 

If I have been busy, I of course sleep as needed.

 

By my observation, a true method is something that is passed down from the experience of many generations or adepts.

 

They have a very exact - step by step - method of practice.

 

As such, they will generally have charted the time it takes to accomplish stages of the practice, sensations one should experience along the way, etc.

 

It is not guesswork.......

[mantis]

For students who are just starting out, in our system, we sit for 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 min or so - 3 sessions a day at morning / afternoon / evening -

 

This time period is slowly lengthened.

 

The student will spend half of the sitting session holding the hand postures to open the meridians, and building a balanced Qi (stillness quality / medium quality / active quality - combined - ) , then the last half is sitting in stillness, and letting this Qi naturally run its course.

 

*** This is a tried and true method that opens the energy channels quickly - and if the method is followed correctly, the student can experience sitting for one hour or longer in the begining with not a lot of pain.

 

Pain is caused by closed meridians, and lack of circulation of Qi.

 

Personally, I try now and sit through a good period of the night - 2 - 3 hours in a session - rest, or lie down, then sit up again.

 

This is interspersed with periods of practice lying on the back at times.

 

If I have been busy, I of course sleep as needed.

 

By my observation, a true method is something that is passed down from the experience of many generations or adepts.

 

They have a very exact - step by step - method of practice.

 

As such, they will generally have charted the time it takes to accomplish stages of the practice, sensations one should experience along the way, etc.

 

It is not guesswork.......

 

quality as always in your posts dao zhen!

 

thanks

[dao zhen]

If one is just practicing sitting, and encounters pain, there are a few ways of dealing with it.

 

FIRST - in ancient times, and in many modern systems of Taoist practice, there is "preliminary" work that is done to prepare for sitting. By my personal experience these are usually Dao Yin stretches with breath training done in a cross leg posture, and also standing Dao Yin methods to stretch the body and tendon network, etc. These methods also begin some very basic work to open the meridian system, train the breath, and circulate the Qi. So look around for Dao Yin methods, or even doing Indian Yoga and Tai Chi can help lay some foundation of BODY for the work of SITTING.

 

SECOND - When sitting there are two methods to work with in passing through the stage of PAIN. Do this, and make it past this stage, as the reward is worth the effort. The pleasure, internal peace, and UNION we gain from the journey past the PAIN stage is really worth the effort.

 

I was taught to allow progress to take shape naturally in meditation.

 

So one method in this regard is to allow the pain to come - say in the hips, or knees, or numbness in the feet - let is build slightly, and before it becomes HUGE, very slowly stretch the feet out and allow things to become comfortable again - then very slowly draw the feet back - AND CONTINUE THE PRACTICE - with this method, a beginer can stretch a practice session out for 1.5 to 2 hours no problem.

 

A second method is to use the breath to push past the pain, or to seek to reach an experience of the meridian opening. This method is usually only good to use if one has a method of practice that combines with the meditation to build up the Qi. As the pain arises, you begin to focus deeply on the breath, and pumping the breath in and out from the Lower Dantian. DO NOT focus on the pain, just focus on the breath. Sometimes one will need a soft breath, sometimes a strong breath. If you can hold the mindfullness, and keep the mind and breath together, and not DRIFT off into the area of pain - oftentimes you will reach a WALL, and then suddenly the WALL breaks down, and there is an OPENING, and the channel opens, and the pain MELTS away like ice, and there is a WARM, comfortable feeling that arises, and the body feels very light, and usually this will lead one to a deep state of emptiness........

 

These are just to give you something to play with.

 

Really, I wish you can all experience to learning of the hand postures - and the related other methods - as it opens things up quickly, builds a healthy qi, and leads one in a very specific direction in the practice.....

[hagar]

hmmm... escaping with dignity intact...

 

what would happen if you lost your dignity?

 

what does having dignity stay intact give you that is more important than the dignity itself?

 

(you don't have to answer these in the open of course - just some things that might have gone unnoticed)

 

 

About getting in intimate contact with energetic/emotional pain... for me this works differently (although it does lead to the same 'intense sensing' state).

 

Rather than moving in really close, I tend to treat the hurt as an individual entity - like a small part of me - kind of like a young child or a frightened animal. So rather than getting close to it, I invite it to come closer to me. I literally treat it like a child - being gentle, smiling, being patient, compassionate and inviting it to come out into the light of awareness.

 

The thing is - when it does start coming out of its hiding place (where the pain can be thought of as the armour of protection) you need to give it as much time and space as it needs... this means going easy on yourself - not sticking to hard rules - holding postures, or keeping attention in one place... you kind of let it unravel by itself and for this to happen you have to be very yin and open to any spontaneous movements or memories or stories (or even songs or chants or noises). Any resolution - I've found - has always resulted in a kind of "AHA!!" experience - not wordy. Also profound stillness. If this doesn't happen and I need to end my session - I say thank you and that I will be back...

 

This is all from my experience of course...

 

Hmm. Sorry about that.

Dignity; For me it is the same challenge as facing pain or turmoil in general; suffering with some form of dignity, and not slipping into the inital pull to express it in ways like "whaaa, f... sh..., holy s!!, this is unbearable, what have i done to deserve this..." etc, etc. In short, being vulgar in response to life.

 

As to your reflections on viewing the pain as a small part or child of yourself, I'd ask you to elaborate how this is dealt with if it is actually close to being unbearable, meaning the impulse to react, or express the pain is almost happening by itself by some part of you? I always feel there is, at a deeper level, many aspects of me that allready are reacting, and that I work at bringing them closer.

The unfolding of sounds or chants and even singing is something I can relate to. I always feel a slight Indo-chinese song come along when things get bad.

 

h

 

 

I think people are confusing different practices here. If you want to cultivate a good qi flow, you're going to be doing something totally different than shikantaza. If you want to do shikantaza, you're going to be doing something totally different than vipassana, etc.

 

Yes at the core of all spiritual practices there is the same path and result, but those practices aren't similar at all in some cases.

 

You can either sit totally still, or allow spontaneous movement. You can confront your deepest fears by being present with the pain, or focus on diminishing the pain by working on your meridians with different mudras.

 

You can't mix them all together.

 

I agree that you make an inital choice in a session. Either stay with the static position and work through until it is fully cooked, or choose dynamic, spontaneous, or moving form respons to the chi.

 

h

[hagar]

What do you practice?

 

I think in an authentic method, there is a usually a very systematic practice to follow.

 

In the system that was passed on to me, the practice is outlined as follows:

 

1. How to Still the Mind - Resting the Mind Will in the Lower Dantian

 

2. Hand Posture and Hand Mudra Forms to Open the Meridian System

 

3. Transformation of Jing to Qi

 

4. Harvest of Yang Qi

 

5. Small Water Wheel

 

6. Etc...

 

Pain is usually present in the legs and lower back, knees, tendons and other spots in the first stages mainly due to the closed meridian system.

 

You have to work through this stage.

 

I experienced HUGE pain in my first 25 day training retreat, but I did not have a lot of experience in sitting.

 

While passing through the pain phase, I found regulation of the breath to help a lot - while we also had to hold "extended" hand postures, and this helped to "push" through the pain so to speak....

 

In this system, the meridian system can generally be opened in around 7 days - doing full time practice of sitting with hand posture forms - 3 sessions a day -

 

Once the opening of the meridians begins to take place generally around day 4 to day 7, the body takes on a feeling of being very light, soft and open - then you begin to feel you can sit for a longer and longer time with no discomfort.

 

Pain is less and less, and then as you keep practicing, feelings of more lightness of body, and pleasurable states come on the scene....

 

YET, as mostly we live in society, and can have emotional reactions, the meridian system can get blocked and closed again - so generally we must practice the hand postures and mudras for some time before we just sit in total stillness with no hand posture forms.

 

We were taught NOT to just sit in a stillness posture till the meridian system is opened, and there is a strong and natural flow of Qi through the entire system.

 

Just sitting in a stillness posture without laying a proper foundation may result in one not moving in the proper direction of growth in practice.

 

Yet everyone is unique, and we can not say anything in an absolute manner.

 

If I were to understand your question correctly, you wonder if I should be more systematic?

 

I practice Hua Gong, and maybe I underestimate the uniqueness of the reactions that I face in relation to the nature of my practice.

Recall that I have adressed the nature of my system elsewhere, but my undertanding of it unfolds continuously, so to your basic layout of your system, I could say in general that this is not very similar to what I work at, atleast on the higher levels.

To avoid the easy reply and drawing the outline, my honest reply is that I have realy no clue how this unfolds. The feeling and experience I have is that there is atleas 4 different, separate yet interdependent dimensions of practice that takes turns in emphasis: physical transformation, energy purification, integration (both of energies and in life) and liberation (both on a micro and macro-plane).

 

You could be right in that if I allowed enough inital time to let the blockages unfold, the meridians would open in some days of work. I do not have this luxury, unfortunately.

Yet I do experience this more on an information level. In my case I feel the information aspect of the chi replays itself on deeper and deeper levels, and actually gets worse again after more work. Like a re-run of an old movie.

 

In my alchemy practice i hold mudras to focus and secure that the cavities are responding to each other in pairs, (like the LDT and the Ni wan).

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

 

h

[dao zhen]

If I were to understand your question correctly, you wonder if I should be more systematic?

 

I practice Hua Gong, and maybe I underestimate the uniqueness of the reactions that I face in relation to the nature of my practice........

 

Recall that I have adressed the nature of my system elsewhere, but my undertanding of it unfolds continuously, so to your basic layout of your system, I could say in general that this is not very similar to what I work at, atleast on the higher levels.

 

To avoid the easy reply and drawing the outline, my honest reply is that I have realy no clue how this unfolds. The feeling and experience I have is that there is atleas 4 different, separate yet interdependent dimensions of practice that takes turns in emphasis: physical transformation, energy purification, integration (both of energies and in life) and liberation (both on a micro and macro-plane).

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

 

h

 

I think as friends and companions, and also as Westerners exploring these Taoist Arts, we have to be objective, honest, and also have a spirit of sharing; then maybe we can make some headway...

 

I do not know of a traditional practice termed "Hua Gong" is this Hua as in "Flower"....?

 

To be honest, we must seriously look at the RESULTS gained or LACK OF RESULTS.

 

I think three basic hallmarks of a good Internal Alchemy system would be:

 

1. A real and tangible method to quiet the stray thoughts and desires from the very start of the journey.

 

2. A real and tangible method to quickly open all channels - thereby allowing the student to be free of disease and in health and also to be able to sit for longer and longer periods of time in no pain.

 

3. A real and tangible method to deal with the first main door one approaches - "what to do when Jing is full" -

 

By my research and understanding from personal practice, a "SYSTEM" would address the above points in a very clear manner, and also other points that come later on.....

 

I agree with you in a simple manner on your 4 areas that arise as dimensions of practice; though we could analyze and list quite a bit more -or maybe that is the job of the Buddhists

 

It is good to look at a system in outline form, as it can give you some idea of where you are in your practice,

if you are progressing on course, and also if perhaps you made some error, and are going in a wrong direction.

 

Beijing able to look at a system in outline form, can also show if in fact this system has some aim of Union with Tao, and a means to provide a vehicle to allow the student to make such a journey....

 

I would also go one step further, and say that to qualify as a True Method, such a system should have some living examples of adepts who have made advanced headway using these methods - otherwise it is all fancy talk, legendary stories and tall tales...

 

Without a good map, it is perhaps almost imossible to get to the destination.....

 

In a simple way, our practice could be outlined as such:

 

1. Laying Foundation - 100 days

2. Incubation - 1 year

3. Journey through the Big Pass - 7 days

4. Nursing the Infant - 3 years

5. Facing a Wall - 9 years

 

In a more complex way as listed by my senior:

 

STEP 1 Preparatory work

STEP 2 Cleanse the heart of all stray thoughts, desires and passions

STEP 3 Settle mind-will in Lower Elixir Field

STEP 4 Open up the Eight Extra Channels

STEP 5 Administer Jing

STEP 6 Harvest Yang Qi

STEP 7 Revolve the first small waterwheel

STEP 8 Gather Psychical Rays

STEP 9 Gather the Qi of Great Unification

STEP 10 Automatic revolution---Fetal Breathing

STEP 11 Preserve the Buddhist Relic

STEP 12 Nourish the Buddhist Relic

STEP 13 Golden lightning flashes three times

STEP 14 Conduct the Buddhist Relic to pass through the Three Passes

STEP 15 Conceive a Fetus of the True Self in ten months' time

STEP 16 Give birth to the Fetus of the True Self

STEP 17 Raise the Fetus of True Self in three years' time

STEP 18 Possess the same body with Tao

STEP 19 Fill up the infinite emptiness with my brilliant psychical light in nine years time

[hagar]

I think as friends and companions, and also as Westerners exploring these Taoist Arts, we have to be objective, honest, and also have a spirit of sharing; then maybe we can make some headway...

 

I do not know of a traditional practice termed "Hua Gong" is this Hua as in "Flower"....?

 

To be honest, we must seriously look at the RESULTS gained or LACK OF RESULTS.

 

I think three basic hallmarks of a good Internal Alchemy system would be:

 

1. A real and tangible method to quiet the stray thoughts and desires from the very start of the journey.

 

2. A real and tangible method to quickly open all channels - thereby allowing the student to be free of disease and in health and also to be able to sit for longer and longer periods of time in no pain.

 

3. A real and tangible method to deal with the first main door one approaches - "what to do when Jing is full" -

 

By my research and understanding from personal practice, a "SYSTEM" would address the above points in a very clear manner, and also other points that come later on.....

 

I agree with you in a simple manner on your 4 areas that arise as dimensions of practice; though we could analyze and list quite a bit more -or maybe that is the job of the Buddhists

 

It is good to look at a system in outline form, as it can give you some idea of where you are in your practice,

if you are progressing on course, and also if perhaps you made some error, and are going in a wrong direction.

 

Beijing able to look at a system in outline form, can also show if in fact this system has some aim of Union with Tao, and a means to provide a vehicle to allow the student to make such a journey....

 

I would also go one step further, and say that to qualify as a True Method, such a system should have some living examples of adepts who have made advanced headway using these methods - otherwise it is all fancy talk, legendary stories and tall tales...

 

Without a good map, it is perhaps almost imossible to get to the destination.....

 

In a simple way, our practice could be outlined as such:

 

1. Laying Foundation - 100 days

2. Incubation - 1 year

3. Journey through the Big Pass - 7 days

4. Nursing the Infant - 3 years

5. Facing a Wall - 9 years

 

In a more complex way as listed by my senior:

 

STEP 1 Preparatory work

STEP 2 Cleanse the heart of all stray thoughts, desires and passions

STEP 3 Settle mind-will in Lower Elixir Field

STEP 4 Open up the Eight Extra Channels

STEP 5 Administer Jing

STEP 6 Harvest Yang Qi

STEP 7 Revolve the first small waterwheel

STEP 8 Gather Psychical Rays

STEP 9 Gather the Qi of Great Unification

STEP 10 Automatic revolution---Fetal Breathing

STEP 11 Preserve the Buddhist Relic

STEP 12 Nourish the Buddhist Relic

STEP 13 Golden lightning flashes three times

STEP 14 Conduct the Buddhist Relic to pass through the Three Passes

STEP 15 Conceive a Fetus of the True Self in ten months' time

STEP 16 Give birth to the Fetus of the True Self

STEP 17 Raise the Fetus of True Self in three years' time

STEP 18 Possess the same body with Tao

STEP 19 Fill up the infinite emptiness with my brilliant psychical light in nine years time

 

Hua, as in flower, opening, melting, transformation, liberation etc, correct.

 

I agree as to your list of tangible results of good alchemy practice.

 

Yet, maybe our approaches are abit different. I do not know.

 

Here I think our ways part abit.

What I have been taught is a system that teaches Internal Alchemy as one of the two most advanced aspects of a practice that is always changing. What is taught is never the same, and will even change as it is taught from retreat to retreat, even if it is minor changes. So what I practice now may have been changed, almost like a Windows upgrade. In a sense, there is not a formal system, since the information changes.

 

I have only a very fragmented understanding, and not a comprehensive outlook like you seem to have. Neither do I study as a recluse, and my form of practice is adapted to people living in the western society.

What it emphasizes is that the core transmissions and basic seeds contains all the information for higher practice, and thus the basic practice can be the most advanced.

 

But my post was not about my particular form of Int. alchemy, but instead adress the basic nature of bodily, psychosomatic reactions and energetic consequences of dedicated sitting. Pain being one central aspect that seems to come up for me now.

 

I'd like to know why (for example) I feel like i've been running a marathon after sitting still for 1 hour, and if the opening and transformation of the chi in certain cavities, on a micro level really transforms something deep even on an information level, not only chi level/meridian level. Also, how the Shen aspect of the transformation process affects the Jing and Chi aspect.

 

Thank you for your helpful hints on transcending pain above.

 

h

[dao zhen]

Yes, yes, yes.....

 

Our system has nothing to do with "practices" nor "techniques"....

 

In the first few stages, some technique must be given, some guidelines, etc....

 

Most never move past such a stage, and even the basic level of Transformation of Jing to Qi is given as a "technique" or method in the first steps - but even this must become natural, and the mind-will should not be involved in any direction or guiding...

 

The process is like "growth" or a natural "movement" in a direction that you are "pushed" to from the first trainings and "transmissions" from the teacher...

 

Yes, it is much like "seeds" or "software" is installed....

 

As internal "signs" arise, at times the teacher will advise the student to "employ" a slight method, and this can cause the growth to continue on in a proper direction.

 

For example, at one stage, there is an experience of a strong light that flashes in front of the eyes three times, and at this same time the Qi feels very active and a sound like a roaring will arise from behind - at this time of these signs, there is an action to be taken to continue in the proper growth, etc...

 

The way it was taught to me was we learned the "practice" and we also learned the "theory"...

 

But in reality, they are two different things, and the practice is what is important.

 

The outline of the practice course is not a reference to "technique", but a view of the main stages of growth that take place along the journey.

 

A tree grows from a seed, to a sapling, to a small tree, to a large one....

 

Perhaps we can on paper chart such "stages" of growth of the tree, and give each stage a "name"....

 

But in reality, it is one process of growth, and it is completely "seamless"....

 

Such is the practice of Internal Alchemy....

 

Growth.....

 

I do not have my stack of theory notebooks with me right now....

 

I am recalling now one stage of the practice where the bones will become like some feeling of "fire" and very intense pain......

 

I did not reach this stage yet, and am just recalling the lecture....

 

I will be back in Wudang in 3 weeks or so, and can go through my notebooks to look for that stage.....

 

I also know there was talk about "false pain", being created by the "false heart" at a stage to try and stop you from practice....

 

This was talked about in reference to one reaching an important point of "breakthrough" in the practice.

 

In this reference, it was advised to just sit and move through it, no matter how bad the pain gets - to totally ignore it, and give it no mind, thought, or vision - and attempt to be empty with no movement of the mind-will....

 

Sorry, but I do not remember all the theory, and try and practice more than memorizing such things....

 

Perhaps if you are a seasoned seated meditation adept, then the pain is another thing besides just sore tendons, stiff hip joints, or closed channels in the legs......

 

I just read about you feeling tired.......

 

Let me tell you what I went through perhaps one or two years ago....

 

When sitting with my teacher, it was as if there was a HUGE pressure, almost crushing me about 30 min in.

 

This would then lead to a great heat, and a huge pain, almost inside my bones, and a strong fight / flight response to open the legs due to the pain......

 

I would hold, breath and just be with this......

 

After the sessions would end, I would be soaked in sweat, and REALLY tired.......

 

It reached a point of intensity after about 5 days, and then it was as if I came face to face with this wall, and there arose a pure and sincere intention internally, and my heart had a vow - "I do not care about this pain. I shall not move, ever....." A force arose inside, and the pressure become stronger, more pain, but this "vow" was like a light growing.... Then the pressure and pain suddenly "melted", and I had a huge breakthrough in the practice - whole body become light, like being in a shower of golden light, and I fell into emptiness, and just kept sitting and sitting, and when I came out, Teacher had already left the room, and it was quite late....

 

Maybe this is something like where you are at in your practice?

 

Perhaps when the heart feels strong and it is the right "time", just sit.....

 

Till the wall comes down........

 

Maybe a great breakthrough is waiting on the otherside of the pain.............

 

 

Hua, as in flower, opening, melting, transformation, liberation etc, correct.

 

I agree as to your list of tangible results of good alchemy practice.

 

Yet, maybe our approaches are abit different. I do not know.

 

Here I think our ways part abit.

What I have been taught is a system that teaches Internal Alchemy as one of the two most advanced aspects of a practice that is always changing. What is taught is never the same, and will even change as it is taught from retreat to retreat, even if it is minor changes. So what I practice now may have been changed, almost like a Windows upgrade. In a sense, there is not a formal system, since the information changes.

 

I have only a very fragmented understanding, and not a comprehensive outlook like you seem to have. Neither do I study as a recluse, and my form of practice is adapted to people living in the western society.

What it emphasizes is that the core transmissions and basic seeds contains all the information for higher practice, and thus the basic practice can be the most advanced.

 

But my post was not about my particular form of Int. alchemy, but instead adress the basic nature of bodily, psychosomatic reactions and energetic consequences of dedicated sitting. Pain being one central aspect that seems to come up for me now.

 

I'd like to know why (for example) I feel like i've been running a marathon after sitting still for 1 hour, and if the opening and transformation of the chi in certain cavities, on a micro level really transforms something deep even on an information level, not only chi level/meridian level. Also, how the Shen aspect of the transformation process affects the Jing and Chi aspect.

 

Thank you for your helpful hints on transcending pain above.

 

h

[WhiteTiger]

I was also taught "Theory" (conceptual understanding of practices) and while also practicing.

[gendao]

What do you practice?

 

I think in an authentic method, there is a usually a very systematic practice to follow.

 

In the system that was passed on to me, the practice is outlined as follows:

 

1. How to Still the Mind - Resting the Mind Will in the Lower Dantian

 

2. Hand Posture and Hand Mudra Forms to Open the Meridian System

 

3. Transformation of Jing to Qi

 

4. Harvest of Yang Qi

 

5. Small Water Wheel

 

6. Etc...

 

Pain is usually present in the legs and lower back, knees, tendons and other spots in the first stages mainly due to the closed meridian system.

 

You have to work through this stage.

 

I experienced HUGE pain in my first 25 day training retreat, but I did not have a lot of experience in sitting.

 

While passing through the pain phase, I found regulation of the breath to help a lot - while we also had to hold "extended" hand postures, and this helped to "push" through the pain so to speak....

 

In this system, the meridian system can generally be opened in around 7 days - doing full time practice of sitting with hand posture forms - 3 sessions a day -

 

Once the opening of the meridians begins to take place generally around day 4 to day 7, the body takes on a feeling of being very light, soft and open - then you begin to feel you can sit for a longer and longer time with no discomfort.

 

Pain is less and less, and then as you keep practicing, feelings of more lightness of body, and pleasurable states come on the scene....

 

YET, as mostly we live in society, and can have emotional reactions, the meridian system can get blocked and closed again - so generally we must practice the hand postures and mudras for some time before we just sit in total stillness with no hand posture forms.

 

We were taught NOT to just sit in a stillness posture till the meridian system is opened, and there is a strong and natural flow of Qi through the entire system.

 

Just sitting in a stillness posture without laying a proper foundation may result in one not moving in the proper direction of growth in practice.

 

Yet everyone is unique, and we can not say anything in an absolute manner.

Are you sitting in half or full lotus? And is the "small water wheel" the "little orbit?"

Or simply the microcosmic orbit?

 

And how long (hrs) did it take you to open your microcosmic orbit?

[Creation]

Are you sitting in half or full lotus? And is the "small water wheel" little orbit?Or simply the microcosmic orbit?

 

And how long (hrs) did it take you to open your microcosmic orbit?

He says day 4-7 of the retreat is standard for opening all the meridians, and there are 3 sessions of 1.5 hours of practice per day. So 18-32 hours. Note that this is all the meridians, not just ren and du.

 

Small water wheel is a more advanced stage related to yang chi and transforming pre-heaven jing to pre-heaven chi (whatever that means ):

http://damo-qigong.net/step7.htm

http://damo-qigong.net/step7-1.htm

 

Not that you asked me, but dao zhen doesn't seem to be around here anymore.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Creation

[松永道]

I only read the first couple posts by my suggestion is to bear through it.

 

My teacher says that pain is when you start developing gongfu.

 

Pain is Qi stagnation, a yang within yin phenomenon. You have to sit through it until stagnation transforms into fire, a completely yang within yang phenomenon. At that point the mind attached to pain phenomenon, the po, will begin dissolving, a yin withing yang phenomenon. And then you will enter genuine stillness, a yin within yin phenomenon.

 

Grin and bear it hagar!

[hagar]

I only read the first couple posts by my suggestion is to bear through it.

 

My teacher says that pain is when you start developing gongfu.

 

Pain is Qi stagnation, a yang within yin phenomenon. You have to sit through it until stagnation transforms into fire, a completely yang within yang phenomenon. At that point the mind attached to pain phenomenon, the po, will begin dissolving, a yin withing yang phenomenon. And then you will enter genuine stillness, a yin within yin phenomenon.

 

Grin and bear it hagar!

 

Opsie.

 

An old thread I started in affect, and now, just to embarass me further, it has reappeared.

 

But thank you for your advice.

I wish I could say that I'm in a better place.

 

These days, I kind have started to appreciate my pain. Its inspiring.

And stuff like old Frank Sinatra lyrics have started to make sense;

 

Have you heard? its in the stars

Next july we collide with mars.

Well, did you evah?

What a swell party, a swell party

A swelligant, elegant party this is!

 

h

Edited October 14, 2009 by hagar