CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Namaste Friends, I am new to TheTaoBums forum and I hope it is not too intrusive to start new threads this early in my TTB's "career". haha This forum is very interesting to me as I have only ever engaged in one other forum (The AYP forum) and that forum is pretty much dedicated to one system. Here it is much different. So many people practicing so many different systems. So my question to all of you is simple.....What is your intention (what are you trying to achieve/not achieve) when engaging in the practice of meditation? (whatever meditation means to you) Wishing you all peace and contentment. Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest sykkelpump Posted February 4, 2009 Hello,I have done many types of meditation.My goal is always to quiet the mind.get an empty mind Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted February 4, 2009 Welcome! No need to worry about posting too much, you're in good company if you do Meditation can mean a lot of things to a lot of people so here's my personal definition: Being in a state free from holding on to, pushing away, judging, and 'accumulating'. The goal not just having an empty mind but having the right condition (free mind) to experience Truth/Reality with absolutely no conditioning - in all honesty - just to see if it can be done and to see what happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Is it not enough just to DO meditation, or is it necessary to do it with Intention? Does Intention not lead to potential disappointment should there be no obvious fruits of your labor then? Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted February 4, 2009 Is it not enough just to DO meditation, or is it necessary to do it with Intention? Does Intention not lead to potential disappointment should there be no obvious fruits of your labor then? Love, Carson Intention implies an obvious goal so I see your point there... it creates a constant comparison with the desired state - "I'm getting closer/further from my goal". But if you don't have a specific intention, then what is your motivation/desire for doing that thing? Can we DO anything without desire? Doing also implies a doer, who/what is the doer? Is there even one that is doing? Hmm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Hi Unconditioned! Intention implies an obvious goal so I see your point there... it creates a constant comparison with the desired state - "I'm getting closer/further from my goal". But if you don't have a specific intention, then what is your motivation/desire for doing that thing? Can we DO anything without desire? Doing also implies a doer, who/what is the doer? Is there even one that is doing? Hmm. Meditating with a "goal" in mind is counterproductive from my perspective. If you believe there is "somehwere to get to" how can you already be "here", living in the "present/now"? The reason for meditation (IMO of course) is to help purify the nervous system so that clarity/reality can truly be experienced and truly be appreciated for what it IS. In reality there is no DOER. You are the Doer the Doing AND the Done. A saying that came to me a few months ago out of Deep Meditation was "Seek nothing but to cease Seeking", and for me this is my intention behind sitting to meditate (and doing energy practices etc). Enjoying the conversation, thank you for contributing. Love, Carson Edited February 4, 2009 by CarsonZi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 4, 2009 Welcome! No need to worry about posting too much, you're in good company if you do Meditation can mean a lot of things to a lot of people so here's my personal definition: Being in a state free from holding on to, pushing away, judging, and 'accumulating'. The goal not just having an empty mind but having the right condition (free mind) to experience Truth/Reality with absolutely no conditioning - in all honesty - just to see if it can be done and to see what happens. Well said! I think that you inevitably set up intent when you sit to meditate but its best to let that intent to be to understand, to discover and so on. After all why are you meditating anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Hi apepch7! Well said! I think that you inevitably set up intent when you sit to meditate but its best to let that intent to be to understand, to discover and so on. After all why are you meditating anyway? So how do you feel when you sit down to meditate with the intention of understanding and discovering something/yourself and you come away feeling the same as you did going in, or worse? Is it still possible to be satisfied with your "progress"? Would you not be much more happy and content with what IS, if you sat down to meditate with no intentions of ANYTHING, and were just happy to sit in silence for a while? Do you think you gain nothing from sitting to meditate with NO intentions? Just questions. Love, Carson Edited February 4, 2009 by CarsonZi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyok Posted February 4, 2009 I think there are different types of intentions involved in meditation. first being rooted in the choice to meditate. Frankly i think there has to be some level of egotistic intention involved to choose meditation to begin with. another kind of intention is what some practitioners consciously intend/will our bodies to do during the state of meditation, beit spinal/perenium breathing, backward flow, intending prana upflow, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the buddha & the beast Posted February 4, 2009 Hi apepch7! So how do you feel when you sit down to meditate with the intention of understanding and discovering something/yourself and you come away feeling the same as you did going in, or worse? Is it still possible to be satisfied with your "progress"? Would you not be much more happy and content with what IS, if you sat down to meditate with no intentions of ANYTHING, and were just happy to sit in silence for a while? Do you think you gain nothing from sitting to meditate with NO intentions? Just questions. Love, Carson i think i mainly meditate to see if i can. my "goal" is to attempt it Bcause i'm working on getting rid of anxiety, but i always feel better about my attempts, whether or not the last time works the best. i think my efforts alone are showing "me" that i have more control over my mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Hyok! I think there are different types of intentions involved in meditation. first being rooted in the choice to meditate. Frankly i think there has to be some level of egotistic intention involved to choose meditation to begin with. Don't you think though, that any intention will lead to expectation which in turn leads to suffering? Love, Carson Hi Buddha and the Beast! (awesome name by the way ) i think i mainly meditate to see if i can. my "goal" is to attempt it Bcause i'm working on getting rid of anxiety, but i always feel better about my attempts, whether or not the last time works the best. i think my efforts alone are showing "me" that i have more control over my mind. Isn't any "control" you think you have just maya? Illusion? Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyok Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Hyok! Don't you think though, that any intention will lead to expectation which in turn leads to suffering? Love, Carson i think when a practitioner becomes less attracted and overwhelmed by attainments and more drawn to the finer and more refined aspects of meditation, what you're saying is probably the way to go. But until then the vicious cycle of intention, disappointment & astonishment will have to do! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squatting Monkey Posted February 4, 2009 I practice vipassana (insight) meditation. I was taught to just let everything BE. To observe whatever arises, without judgment. I guess the only intent is to understand the nature of mind and the realization that everything is impermenant Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted February 4, 2009 Don't you think though, that any intention will lead to expectation which in turn leads to suffering? Isn't the intent of "no intention" an intent of it's own? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Isn't the intent of "no intention" an intent of it's own? Of course! As I said "SEEK nothing but to cease seeking" I realize this is a divine paradox from any perspective. Love, Carson Edited February 4, 2009 by CarsonZi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 4, 2009 Don't you think though, that any intention will lead to expectation which in turn leads to suffering? On the Hermetic path (Bardon) this is definitely not the case. The first thing you learn is to have intention without expectation. Amongst the magicians I've heard this called: 'positive non-desiring', 'focused indifference', 'passivity' or 'neutrality' -- all of these turn out to be compatible with intention. Of course these are not Buddhist concepts, at least not officially, but what many of the Tibetans are capable of requires strong intent. You have to get used to this on the Bardon path because the first exercise is to watch thoughts whilst the third is to empty your mind. You have to sit with the intention to do just that exercise, but you need no expectation, only intention. The suffering would come in when you failed to achieve it, if you took that too seriously and didn't 'let go of the result'. If I sit to watch my breath my intention is to watch my breath, if I sit to do zazen I must be very clear that I'm doing zazen and not something else. So for me the suffering you are talking about comes from judgements about results, not from intention. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Neutral Wire, and thanks for your contribution! On the Hermetic path (Bardon) this is definitely not the case. The first thing you learn is to have intention without expectation. Amongst the magicians I've heard this called: 'positive non-desiring', 'focused indifference', 'passivity' or 'neutrality' -- all of these turn out to be compatible with intention. Of course these are not Buddhist concepts, at least not officially, but what many of the Tibetans are capable of requires strong intent. You have to get used to this on the Bardon path because the first exercise is to watch thoughts whilst the third is to empty your mind. You have to sit with the intention to do just that exercise, but you need no expectation, only intention. The suffering would come in when you failed to achieve it, if you took that too seriously and didn't 'let go of the result'. If I sit to watch my breath my intention is to watch my breath, if I sit to do zazen I must be very clear that I'm doing zazen and not something else. So for me the suffering you are talking about comes from judgements about results, not from intention. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ I'm not an expert on Bardon by any means, but what you are saying sounds basically the same as what I am saying. It's all about intention. If your intention is just to DO meditation ("If I sit to watch my breath my intention is to watch my breath") then that is the same as "Seek nothing but to cease seeking", but if your intention is to "get somewhere" such as moksha, liberation, no thoughts, no Self etc etc, then the intent pushes into the realm of expectations, and CAN lead to suffering. It is hard to convey things like this with words, but I am trying my best . Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted February 4, 2009 hi CarsonZi my experience is this, if we set out our goals too high and too pure, it's the easiest and safest way to remain the same old idiot. and a canned one. btw i appreciate the original idea, and i agree that we shouldn't stop at any level, but just keep on going from good to better... beyond, and beyond the beyond... pure meditation is like pure water: if you put fish in it, they die quickly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Carson, A very practical reason to meditate for some is to improve skill in the internal martial arts and healing methods. Daoist meditation techniques refine the Yi which dramatically improves progress in taiji, xingyi, qigong, and so forth. I think that the intention behind meditation for many of us is to know the truth, however we may interpret that word. It seems to me like you are finding answers that make sense to you. I think that is what counts. It's one thing to believe but another altogether to know. I could be sorely mistaken, but it seems to me that meditation helps one to know, making it unnecessary to believe. Keep up the good posts! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 4, 2009 Hi apepch7! So how do you feel when you sit down to meditate with the intention of understanding and discovering something/yourself and you come away feeling the same as you did going in, or worse? Is it still possible to be satisfied with your "progress"? Would you not be much more happy and content with what IS, if you sat down to meditate with no intentions of ANYTHING, and were just happy to sit in silence for a while? Do you think you gain nothing from sitting to meditate with NO intentions? Just questions. Love, Carson I think that intending is not the same as expecting. If I expect to have some kind of experience when I meditate then when it doesn't work out then I may become dissatisfied or disappointed. But this is because I have built up some picture of the goal in my mind which doesn't match the result. However this is not the same as building the intent to meditate. If you practice and you begin to feel the momentum of your practice which has built up over time - a kind of momentum which carries you through rough patches - then this is what I call intent. Silent will, or what ever. The goal of this can be very broad and actually may change over time as your meditation grows deeper and deeper. But to a simple soul like me I begin with understanding (later there is becoming, doing and complete absorption - or however you might want to put it.). Meditation with no intent is quite an achievement, IMO, and is much more than just not saying to yourself what you are doing. It is more like just pure sitting - if you can do that then bloody good I say! Far from gaining nothing from this - you will gain everything (in a way). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Hi again NeutralWire, So for me the suffering you are talking about comes from judgements about results, not from intention. ~NeutralWire~ I think suffering comes from attachments. Whether that be attachments to specific desired outcomes or experiences, attachments to states of mind, attachments to comfort, attachments period. Judgements stem from perspective which stems from attachment to having the correct perspective. If that makes ANY sense at all Love, Carson Hi Little1! Thanks for contributing! my experience is this, if we set out our goals too high and too pure, it's the easiest and safest way to remain the same old idiot. and a canned one. I really agree with this statement! Setting goals period is what I am talking about here. Setting goals (other then to be happy today, right now) is the best way to "remain the same old idiot". btw i appreciate the original idea, and i agree that we shouldn't stop at any level, but just keep on going from good to better... beyond, and beyond the beyond... Where is there to stop? Can this journey ever be done? Even in death? IMO no. pure meditation is like pure water: if you put fish in it, they die quickly Beautiful quote. Thank you. Love, Carson Hi xuesheng! Thanks for your input! A very practical reason to meditate for some is to improve skill in the internal martial arts and healing methods. Daoist meditation techniques refine the Yi which dramatically improves progress in taiji, xingyi, qigong, and so forth. Seems practical. Not sure if you are meaning that the meditator is the one improving but to me meditation for the benefit or the rest of the world, not ourselves, would be more of a noble cause then to meditate for your own personal benefit though. Perhaps that is what you are meaning, not sure. I think that the intention behind meditation for many of us is to know the truth, however we may interpret that word. It seems to me like you are finding answers that make sense to you. I think that is what counts. It's one thing to believe but another altogether to know. I could be sorely mistaken, but it seems to me that meditation helps one to know, making it unnecessary to believe. Yes indeed. To know with the mind and to know through personal experience are two completely different things. To know one thing in the mind is great, but you just may find that what you know in the mind may be disproven from one day to the next by personal experience. Only you can know the ultimate Truth for you. Something that cannot be taught. Keep up the good posts! Keep up the good responses! Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Namaste apepch7 and thanks for the reply! I think that intending is not the same as expecting. OK. And based on what you say later in this post, I gather your intention in meditation is to "understand" correct? Can you not be disappointed coming out of meditation with this intention if you come away feeling more scattered, confused or restless? This can and does happen (at least occasionally) correct? So wouldn't it be more beneficial to let go of your intentions and just DO meditation like you do something that is habitual and done without any thought whatsoever? Meditation with no intent is quite an achievement, IMO, and is much more than just not saying to yourself what you are doing. It is more like just pure sitting - if you can do that then bloody good I say! Far from gaining nothing from this - you will gain everything (in a way). Exactly. Meditation (IMO) should be done without thought for who or what benefits, without desire for any outcome or experience, and should be done habitually without expectation. I don't find it that difficult to "achieve" this, (if you can truly "acheive" anything) in fact I find it more difficult to go into meditation with expectations. But that is just me and we all have different karmic obstructions. Mine were mostly related to being a drug addict so......we are all different. Many roads to the same destination. Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 4, 2009 If your intention is just to DO meditation ("If I sit to watch my breath my intention is to watch my breath") then that is the same as "Seek nothing but to cease seeking", but if your intention is to "get somewhere" such as moksha, liberation, no thoughts, no Self etc etc, then the intent pushes into the realm of expectations, and CAN lead to suffering. Well if you only say it might lead to suffering... no argument. But you must understand -- just about every magical operation is about intention... the intention to heal someone, the intention leave your body, the intention to sit still.... Every action has an intention in magic. The point is to let go of concern about the outcome. The training and the meditation is designed to make you flow into the situation and direct it via your higher will, not the little will that worries if the bus will come on time. This is how it works in what I do. I think suffering comes from attachments. Well of course I hear a lot of people talking like this but Buddhism is a bit of a closed book to me. Normally I don't think about 'suffering' exactly -- but in terms of meditation, either frustration at not achieving something, or failure to achieve something can be a problem, or both. Letting go of outcomes seems the easy way out of that one, I think in terms of 'allowing', 'flowing' and so on. Like I said, 'focused indifference' or 'positive non-desiring'. Maybe that's 'non-attachment'? Only, I still do have intention. Bardon is very big on setting goals, something I do all the time. Hopefully I'm not 'the same old idiot' and Bardon certainly doesn't appear to have been the 'same old idiot'! But I 'let go' of the goals even while I set them. I know worrying about achieving something, thinking about it, etc., is the best way for it never to happen. As a magician I think you develop ways simply to allow things and then they happen, to me it's about getting out of the way. Perhaps our different vocabularies are necessitated by our different practices. ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 4, 2009 Hi NeutralWire, Perhaps our different vocabularies are necessitated by our different practices. I think perhaps...... A quote was expounded upon at my meditation group last week and I would like to share the general jist of it as it is plenty applicable to what we are talking about here in this thread... Pema Chodron said something along the lines of this: We often come to meditation or any spiritual discipline with the expectation that it will make us a better person...Very similar to our way of thinking when we set out to start a new physical exercise or buy something new....We may start a new regiment of jogging every morning with the expectation that this will make us a better person...this is the same way we think when we say for example, go buy a new house....we expect that this new house will make us feel better about ourselves...same thing with meditation. If we sit down to meditate with the expectation of it making us a better person we are trapping ourselves in expectations that are not realistic. It is wrong to think that if you could only get along with your boss at work that you would be a happier person....same with meditation...if you meditate with the expectation that it will make you a happier person you are again trapped by your own expectations and are really just setting yourself up for disappointment. Meditation is to be done without expectations, for when it is done like this, and only when it is done like this, can you truly experience the joy of simply being. This is not a direct quote, and should be seen as my interpretation of what Pema said, but this is the general idea he was putting forward. Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) We may start a new regiment of jogging every morning with the expectation that this will make us a better person...this is the same way we think when we say for example, go buy a new house....we expect that this new house will make us feel better about ourselves...same thing with meditation. If we sit down to meditate with the expectation of it making us a better person we are trapping ourselves in expectations that are not realistic. It is wrong to think that if you could only get along with your boss at work that you would be a happier person....same with meditation...if you meditate with the expectation that it will make you a happier person you are again trapped by your own expectations and are really just setting yourself up for disappointment. Meditation is to be done without expectations, for when it is done like this, and only when it is done like this, can you truly experience the joy of simply being. This is not a direct quote, and should be seen as my interpretation of what Pema said, but this is the general idea he was putting forward. I get what she's saying, but I think it's just too far away from where I come from. I did and do indeed sit down to meditate with the expectation of becoming a better person, and I seem to succeed. Personally, I certainly expect to improve in some way from jogging or something like that -- 'better person' is a little vague, but 'fitter person' would fit the bill. As for the idea that: It is wrong to think that if you could only get along with your boss at work that you would be a happier person ... I'm afraid I simply disagree with it! To me, the ability to work well with the people around me is an important virtue. The inability to get on with anyone at all usually seems to me to be an important tip-off about things inside myself that need work. And when I do the work successfully, I am indeed happier. Well this has been interesting! I am sure that both ways are valid, and personally I am much happier in a world with many different methods. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Edited February 5, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
