Mal Posted February 7, 2009 Mine is not an existential question about what is "real" When I say be real, that is be honest with yourself first. Sorry I didn't mean it that way. You can be honest with yourself and make others feel good too. More like how in any given situation there are social roles that we follow whether we realize it or not. I'm posting on the net. I'm interacting with my parents. I'm drinking with my friends. All of these situations have different norms that shape what is acceptable behavior. I can't NOT chose to put some sort of "face"/"filter" on my behavior/words. I have many options available and I just prefer to honestly try to "support others" over "tell it my way". I guess it depends on if you really want others to know how you feel or if you prefer to keep your personal feelings personal. Rethinking. I'm not suggesting thinking "plan X is obviously doomed to failure" then saying "yes that's a great idea go for it" But more like someone makes a statement. I try to understand and support why they feel that way. Rather than state how I would feel. YM(obviously)V and it's all good. I think we are both just trying to be honest in our own way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rookie Posted February 7, 2009 Interesting! You see, I believe that the negative (by which I mean complaining, superior, abusive..) parts of me are the phony parts. And that's what's real is just aliveness, and what's not to like? Maybe I should have defined my idea of negative at the start. A firm and cheerful "no thanks!" is not negative, if you ask me. And in life I try to do that when appropriate. But on a forum I kinda reckon there's no need. It's not like whatever it is is chasing you down the road. One can just stop reading and move on... yes, my definition of phony is closer to "trying to appear happy and cheerful when you are not feeling it". That is just not good for you, and is not honest either. I agree with what you are saying using your definition of phony. These parts of oneself that generate the negative behaviors are not the real you (or me). They are the mechanical part. Sorry I didn't meant it that way. More like how in any given situation there are social roles that we follow whether we realist it or not. I'm posting on the net. I'm interacting with my parents. I'm drinking with my friends. All of these situations have different norms that shape what is acceptable behavior. I can't NOT chose to put some sort of "face" on my behavior. I have many options available and I just prefer to honestly try to "support others" over "tell it my way". I guess it depends on if you really want others to know exactly how you feel or if you prefer to keep your personal feelings personal. YM(obviously)V no problem, I was addressing one's honesty with oneself. And the main topic was about being civil, which I agree with Interesting! And that's what's real is just aliveness, and what's not to like? Ian, I'm not sure I understand this sentence. If you are saying "what is real is aliveness", or living, and what's not to like about that, I agree. Thanks for saying that. I am hoping to get a discussion into that level through the "mechanicalness" topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted February 7, 2009 A firm and cheerful "no thanks!" is not negative, if you ask me. And in life I try to do that when appropriate. But on a forum I kinda reckon there's no need. It's not like whatever it is is chasing you down the road. One can just stop reading and move on... Exactly. It's like the {endless} Kunlun debates. The views are diametrically opposed and nobody is going to compromise just to get along. They seem to want the "other" to change to agree with "them" It's never going to happen. Moving on is really the only "useful" option. no problem, I was addressing one's honesty with oneself. And the main topic was about being civil, which I agree with Arrg now we agree and have nothing further to discuss Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted February 7, 2009 So be real dude. If you're an ass, be a real ass If you're a saint, great, be that, but be real. What if you are a phony!!!? Muah hahahahahahahahaahahah The thing is - it's all phonyness - being nice is just as phony as being nasty - or - it's just as perfect... being phony is also perfect... trying not to be phony is also perfect... even if you are a phony and are trying not to be one - it's still all perfect... all this either oppresses you or it provides entertainment... Yoda is a master of re-framing oppression into entertainment... And you, rookie, I'm willing to bet, are a master of re-framing phoniness into perfection!... (but you might not know that yet)... Ian, Mal and I need to be able to find our anger funny rather than scary... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
farmerjoe Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) QUOTE(Sloppy Zhang @ Feb 2 2009, 05:12 AM) * In my humble opinion it's totally okay to voice your opinion and respond to things, it's part of being in a forum, but then to turn around and start judging peoples' opinions and stuff.... I dunno, it doesn't make sense given that it's a forum anyway I thought this made sense that it's okay to voice your opinion and respond. Reading through this site I've found that there are those that want to help, maybe too much and they aren't qualified to help other people. I say that because very few people have totally altruistic motives. That's why some discussions turn ugly because it becomes personal and people get judged and then it stops being about helping another person and turns into a battle to determine who is right and who is wrong. Joe. Edited February 7, 2009 by farmerjoe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Posted February 7, 2009 Ian, Mal and I need to be able to find our anger funny rather than scary... Speak for yourself, old horse. I want to be able to find it dispersing, desolidifying, popping off and flowing down ! Though maybe funny is a way station, now I think about it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) I don't know if negative is the right expression of it. I think being "negative" can mean many different things to different people. Like to a vegan maybe you eating a hamburger is negative. But to you it's delicious and your getting your protien So there are many different sides to any issue. Different perspectives. What I feel-after spending some time on this forum-the major "issue" is one of respect. You can differ from another opinion wise or even think they are full of it but you can still be respectful. There is sort of a line and in order to have "positive" discussions here you don't really want to cross it. Instead of resorting to name calling or dissing or whatever if a convo is going in a direction where both parties aren't "agreeing" you can say "OK, we are going to differ on opinions there. And that's cool". When these conversations get out of hand is when we loose our respect imo. Both self respect and respect for the other. I don't even thing it needs to be like super high level respect. It doesn't need to be like Zen Dojo respect where we bow to each other after doing anything. But a little respect. I mean if we all just maintain some respect for the other's perspective it's all good I think. So, if that's the spirit of what Ian is saying I'll try to follow that in any future posts here. I may not agree and I may even argue but I'll keep a respectful attitude of the other's perspective. Cam Edited February 7, 2009 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rookie Posted February 8, 2009 What if you are a phony!!!? Muah hahahahahahahahaahahah The thing is - it's all phonyness - being nice is just as phony as being nasty - or - it's just as perfect... being phony is also perfect... trying not to be phony is also perfect... even if you are a phony and are trying not to be one - it's still all perfect... all this either oppresses you or it provides entertainment... ok this is fun I do have to state the definition of phony I am using (may not be the best word) is trying to repress what you are really feeling. You are not being honest with yourself first and formost. I would say "be what you are" meaning don't loose touch with your feelings even if they don't measure up your expectations or desires. I am not talking about absolutes in this conversation, but that appears to be what you are alluding to. Any personality traits are in fact "phony" when used with this definition. Yes, from the absolute state anything is ok. And you, rookie, I'm willing to bet, are a master of re-framing phoniness into perfection!... (but you might not know that yet)... this sounds really funny man, but I'm not even sure I know what you mean. You may have just delivered one of the worlds best insults and I don't even know it care to clarify that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rookie Posted February 8, 2009 To distill it further.....I am saying just be with the experience you are creating. That is authentic. It can and will change. But it is just experience. So only real in the moment, then it is gone and another reality appears...continuously changing.... But this isn't you, or me, it is just what's appearing in the moment I am not theorizing here. This is experience. I would really like to get some discussion along this line, but kept in the realm of experience so not to get stuck in the mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted February 14, 2009 I think there is a time and place for everything... Keeping in mind that I wish to do the best I am able in as humble a fashion as the situation dictates... I'm not going to restrict my efforts - if I feel there is some part of malevolence afoot- I intend to be pretty negative towards its seeming imposition... I will contend with that which I see as negative as positivly as I'm able! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seadog Posted February 15, 2009 When I Am in the ocean I can see the mountains.When I Am on top of the mountain I can see the ocean. How wonderful to see the top from the bottom,How wondeful to see the bottom from the top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) ok this is fun I do have to state the definition of phony I am using (may not be the best word) is trying to repress what you are really feeling. You are not being honest with yourself first and formost. So what if being a phony (using your definition) is your 'natural' way of being!?!? Do you try to stop 'being phony' - isn't this in itself being phony!?!? I think being any other way than the way you are right now is being phony. (notice there is never any other way of being than the way you are right now!) and (we're just having fun, right?) I'm certainly not talking about absolutes - and I understand exactly where you're coming from - I'm just playing the 'trickster' and turning it upside down - for your entertainment, for my entertainment and to allow both of us to take our thoughts less seriously! Discussion would be difficult about this - because face to face - most of the really productive part of the discussion would happen during the laughter! I wasn't insulting you by the way - it was more of a compliment... 'framing' is using context to change meaning... you 'framed' what I said as a possible insult - I framed it as a compliment - perfect demonstration of framing! When discussing these kinds of things (especially emotions) the mind constantly tricks us... It tricks us and produces certainty and seriousness... I'm trying to trick myself and others in a way that produces uncertainty and fun (And I'm very certain about this - and I intend to seriously do that! ) Playing the trickster is easy - whatever direction your mind looks in, turn in the opposite direction! Whenever you see good, take your time to see the bad in it.... When you see something horrific, notice the amazing in that... Don't let yourself crystallize and stagnate... I tend to go through cycles - have wonderfull 'Aha!' moments of erudite, logical understanding, but then I must turn that upside down, shake it up and lose it completely... and this creates flow and space and tons of energy... so I'm passing on the gift of the absurd... it's meant to be slightly disconcerting, uncomfortable and confusing... that's what I get from it, and I hope you do too! Edited February 15, 2009 by freeform Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rookie Posted February 15, 2009 So what if being a phony (using your definition) is your 'natural' way of being!?!? Do you try to stop 'being phony' - isn't this in itself being phony!?!? I think being any other way than the way you are right now is being phony. (notice there is never any other way of being than the way you are right now!) and (we're just having fun, right?) I'm certainly not talking about absolutes - and I understand exactly where you're coming from - I'm just playing the 'trickster' and turning it upside down - for your entertainment, for my entertainment and to allow both of us to take our thoughts less seriously! Discussion would be difficult about this - because face to face - most of the really productive part of the discussion would happen during the laughter! I wasn't insulting you by the way - it was more of a compliment... 'framing' is using context to change meaning... you 'framed' what I said as a possible insult - I framed it as a compliment - perfect demonstration of framing! When discussing these kinds of things (especially emotions) the mind constantly tricks us... It tricks us and produces certainty and seriousness... I'm trying to trick myself and others in a way that produces uncertainty and fun (And I'm very certain about this - and I intend to seriously do that! ) Playing the trickster is easy - whatever direction your mind looks in, turn in the opposite direction! Whenever you see good, take your time to see the bad in it.... When you see something horrific, notice the amazing in that... Don't let yourself crystallize and stagnate... I tend to go through cycles - have wonderfull 'Aha!' moments of erudite, logical understanding, but then I must turn that upside down, shake it up and lose it completely... and this creates flow and space and tons of energy... so I'm passing on the gift of the absurd... it's meant to be slightly disconcerting, uncomfortable and confusing... that's what I get from it, and I hope you do too! thanks for that I really did get a good laugh frome reading it and wasn't at all sure what your meaning was Still makes me laugh It is interesting that you use the word "trickster". I was talking to a friend about an experience of the transformation from personal to impersonal and I saw a coyote trot right on by, beautiful, fluffy tail, confident, not in a hurry,..... she suggested I look up its meaning in native american traditions, which I know nothing about .......looked it up online and it is considered a trickster, transformer, ....... I appreciate your passing on the technique of the trickster I will play with it (bows hand in fist) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
