What is (romantic) love?

[Billy K]

So, here's a hard one.

I'm 30 years old, and I've been able to make sense of a lot of things I've seen in life, except this one.

What exactly is (romantic) love? Why do we fall in love?

It was my theory that love is more or less an evolutionary trait in men to ensure we stay with women to raise a family (IMO, women love their children, but are colder towards their kids' daddies, so that would fit). However, from this point of view, heartache doesn't really make sense, so I should probably scrap that theory, since Mother Nature usually doesn't do things that don't make sense.

 

I've heard the lovey-dovey hippie theories of past life connections, but if that was the case, we'd all be happily in love once we found someone, and we'd never be sad.

 

If there was a system to it, we shouldn't fall in love all over the place, yet we do. Then again, there must be a system to it, since there's a system to everything else in this universe.

 

So, what gives? Is it Karma? Is it, as the ancient Greeks said, a curse from the Gods (this makes the most sense from my point of view, though what are love-hate relationships, then?)?

 

Discuss.

 

PS: please don't say something like "just enjoy it and go with the flow", because

 

a.) I don't consider romantic love something positive (kinda like heroin, first you get high, then you fall into a deep hole).

b.) I'd rather have some kind of explanation for things happening to people.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Billy K

[NeutralWire]

Good one!

 

To me romantic love is something which occurs because of the incompleteness of being in a sexed body.

 

Certain destinies are implied by this, by deep emotions stored in etheric body (jing level) that can only be accessed if you are recognized by someone of the opposite sex and something is shared and transformed. Those emotions are inherited through many generations.

 

There is definitely an 'intention in the flesh' to continue the line. Heartache does make sense from this point of view -- perfect sense! The body yearns for that continuation and for that completion. You just have to accord to the body that level of wisdom, where it sees and understands what it is yearning for.

 

Also though, you still have to work with it. You still have to have will in the situation.

 

In Hermetics they say, 'Love is the Law, but Love under a strong Will.' Immunity from romantic love is conferred by high training, so the disadvantages of it are very much known. In the Hermetic 'Poemandres' scripture it says: "Love is the cause of death, but Love is All." You can't ignore love but you can transcend it with greater and more selfless love.

 

In magic love is to do with the water element. 'God' loves all things equally, with infinite intensity -- but also with perfect humility. That I find interesting.

 

In Hermetics there seems to be much training of this for the advanced practitioner, as they deal with Undines (Water spirits) and later with spirits from the Venus sphere, which are both notorious for their erotic and loving abilities. You find all you seek, but not yet God -- so you must learn to prioritize!

 

It's hard work either way. But it's also glorious. To me it's to do with very important things in the core of human race itself, so you can't avoid it. You have to learn from it though, get it under control, and not let it make you crazy. Stay plugged in to the neutral wire.

 

I think in the end sticking to a higher spiritual love starts to ameliorate mundane or romantic love and turn it into something else. This has been my method and it works, but like all transformations of one's humanity, you need to stick with and keep your inspiration the highest you can imagine.

 

I hope this helps! My perspective is Bardonist but I look forward to the ideas of those who are following Taoist paths. When Taoism was making its way into the western culture in the 80s, it did promise some more understanding of love.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

PS: Bill Mistele (www.lava.net/~pagios) writes alot about his experiences with Undines and Venus spirits, amongst others. I believe he has even written a book about Undines that you can find on lulu.com.

[Billy K]

Hey thanks, that makes sense

But out of interest, I, too, will wait for what the Buddhists and Taoists have to say.

[seadog]

Great post Neutral.

very well articulated.

I enjoy hearing from a western or hemetic view

and believe the taoist view although coached in a different language would be in agreement.

[joeblast]

So, here's a hard one.

I'm 30 years old, and I've been able to make sense of a lot of things I've seen in life, except this one.

What exactly is (romantic) love? Why do we fall in love?

It was my theory that love is more or less an evolutionary trait in men to ensure we stay with women to raise a family (IMO, women love their children, but are colder towards their kids' daddies, so that would fit). However, from this point of view, heartache doesn't really make sense, so I should probably scrap that theory, since Mother Nature usually doesn't do things that don't make sense.

 

I've heard the lovey-dovey hippie theories of past life connections, but if that was the case, we'd all be happily in love once we found someone, and we'd never be sad.

 

If there was a system to it, we shouldn't fall in love all over the place, yet we do. Then again, there must be a system to it, since there's a system to everything else in this universe.

 

So, what gives? Is it Karma? Is it, as the ancient Greeks said, a curse from the Gods (this makes the most sense from my point of view, though what are love-hate relationships, then?)?

 

Discuss.

 

PS: please don't say something like "just enjoy it and go with the flow", because

 

a.) I don't consider romantic love something positive (kinda like heroin, first you get high, then you fall into a deep hole).

b.) I'd rather have some kind of explanation for things happening to people.

Dont confuse heartache with love. Heartache is caused by attachment, plain and simple. If you truly love someone and deduce that even despite that, your paths will not be concurrent, why the heartache? Look deeper and you'll find it derives from a selfish 'they make me feel good, so I want to feel more of that' and not from a giving, loving perspective.

[Tegan]

oh..you know.. I think I have somethings that are personal..and relevant to add to this. But, I tend to ramble, so I'll come back when my thoughts are more succinct. It's definitely a topic I've done a good deal thinking about all year. And my previous beliefs have gotten rattled a bit the past couple of years. And...I'm still struggling daily with some ideas around it. So..I'll post more later. I need to think how to relay the personal stuff, and still apply it in general terms to the specifics of the topic.

[CarsonZi]

Namaste Billy K! Great topic.

So, here's a hard one.

I'm 30 years old, and I've been able to make sense of a lot of things I've seen in life, except this one.

What exactly is (romantic) love? Why do we fall in love?

In general, from my experience, most people fall in love with someone because that someone makes them feel good about themselves. I consider this "Imitation Love" as described by Greg Baer in "Real Love".

It was my theory that love is more or less an evolutionary trait in men to ensure we stay with women to raise a family (IMO, women love their children, but are colder towards their kids' daddies, so that would fit).

I would say this is not love, but sexual attraction and a species survival tactic. REAL love, also known as Unconditional Love, is just that, unconditional.

However, from this point of view, heartache doesn't really make sense, so I should probably scrap that theory, since Mother Nature usually doesn't do things that don't make sense.

Heartache is what happens when you are looking for Imitation Love and are used to getting it, but are not. IMO.

I've heard the lovey-dovey hippie theories of past life connections, but if that was the case, we'd all be happily in love once we found someone, and we'd never be sad.

Yes, I don't give much credence to this either.

If there was a system to it, we shouldn't fall in love all over the place, yet we do. Then again, there must be a system to it, since there's a system to everything else in this universe.

We fall in love all over the place because we recognize in others what we love about ourselves. If we can turn that desire for love into bhakti for ourselves we will soon find that we are "in love" with the entire of humanity. And this is truly a beautiful thing from my experience.

So, what gives? Is it Karma? Is it, as the ancient Greeks said, a curse from the Gods (this makes the most sense from my point of view, though what are love-hate relationships, then?)?

Love is all there is. The feeling of seperateness from this Love is what drives us to fill the void with Imitation Love. This only makes us feel better for the short term. Love-Hate relationships occur when individuals get attached to other individuals that make them feel good about themselves sometimes and horrible about themselves in others. This is classic "conditional love". Noone benefits from this.

please don't say something like "just enjoy it and go with the flow", because

a.) I don't consider romantic love something positive (kinda like heroin, first you get high, then you fall into a deep hole).

b.) I'd rather have some kind of explanation for things happening to people.

Real Love is absolutely 100% positive. But there are different kinds of love as I have stated above. I was addicted to IV heroin and then methadone for over 6 years, so I know all about Imitation Love and the effects it has on a person. I can guarantee you that the kind of love you are talking about will never make you satisfied for any length of time and Unconditional Love is necessary to see past this. I suggest you have a read through "Real Love" by Greg Baer, it is truly revelatory. Best of luck.

 

Love,

Carson

[ddilulo_06]

Love can never be contained in a theory, an explanation, or a why. It isn't definable. We can never figure out love.

 

Sure, we can talk about love... but doesn't it feel better to experience it instead?

 

I tried to figure out love a while ago. My head hurts just from thinking about those times.

[TTT]

Here maybe you like this:

 

http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html

 

It is not really spiritual, but western sience could be

helpfull as well sometimes.

[Billy K]

stuff

 

Namaste to you too

 

Yeah, see, that why i wrote "romantic love"... all-encompasisng love is jolly good of course.

However, I think saying that "imitation love" is just people having something in common is oversimplifying it... I've been victim to love on first sight a few times when I was younger, before I even knew what the girl's personality was like, and people having something in common is more like friendship.

 

Also, after thinking about this a lot lately, I have the feeling that romantic love is actually counter-productive to personal cultivation. It serves no clear purpose at all, and let's face it, someday it ends, and at least one person bites the dust, and if you hurt and are depressed, you can't really cultivate very well.

The problem is: "Defeating" this kind of love is hard, harder than for example, not having sex. Not having sex is simple, just don't stick it where it don't belong - no problem, if alle else fails, you can become ugly and poor, so no girl will ever want you again. However, Amor is some kind of guerilla sniper, and even if you rarely interact with other people and are as ugly as sin, it can still hit you. That's the problem. It's beyond your control.

 

So, are there any methods, that can make one "immune" to the bad kind of love, while at least still retaining the potential for "good" love?

 

Sure, we can talk about love... but doesn't it feel better to experience it instead?

 

To be totally honest, I never got why people talk about love as something good. It's an useless distraction at best, and a life-shattering catastrophe at worst (which is, judging from most people's experiences, the norm).

So, no thanks, I'd rather get rid of that emotion.

 

EDIT: Oh, just read the article. Anyone know where I can get Prozac in Germany?

Edited February 5, 2009 by Billy K

[TTT]

Drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of bananas will do the job as well :-)

I hope you could still fall in love : )

 

 

 

Namaste to you too

 

Yeah, see, that why i wrote "romantic love"... all-encompasisng love is jolly good of course.

However, I think saying that "imitation love" is just people having something in common is oversimplifying it... I've been victim to love on first sight a few times when I was younger, before I even knew what the girl's personality was like, and people having something in common is more like friendship.

 

Also, after thinking about this a lot lately, I have the feeling that romantic love is actually counter-productive to personal cultivation. It serves no clear purpose at all, and let's face it, someday it ends, and at least one person bites the dust, and if you hurt and are depressed, you can't really cultivate very well.

The problem is: "Defeating" this kind of love is hard, harder than for example, not having sex. Not having sex is simple, just don't stick it where it don't belong - no problem, if alle else fails, you can become ugly and poor, so no girl will ever want you again. However, Amor is some kind of guerilla sniper, and even if you rarely interact with other people and are as ugly as sin, it can still hit you. That's the problem. It's beyond your control.

 

So, are there any methods, that can make one "immune" to the bad kind of love, while at least still retaining the potential for "good" love?

 

EDIT: oh, just read the article. Anyone know where I can get Prozac in Germany?

[CarsonZi]

Namaste Billy K,

So, are there any methods, that can make one "immune" to the bad kind of love, while at least still retaining the potential for "good" love?

 

Yes indeed. I would expound on them all, but I will instead suggest again that you pick up a copy of "Real Love" by Greg Baer. He explains all the techniques much better then I can on an Internet forum. (not to mention they are his ideas in the first place ) If you want me to mail you a copy just send me a private email with your address and I will put one in the mail. Best of luck.

 

Love,

Carson

 

P.S. Love is Love is Love. Romantic, conditional, imitation, these are all just incomplete versions of REAL (Unconditional) Love. IMO of course

 

PPS. The definition of Imitation Love is not people having something in common, it is people using Getting and Protecting Behaviors" (running, attacking, lying and acting like a victim) to get "Imitation Love" (praise, power, pleasure and safety)

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[Billy K]

Namaste Billy K,

Yes indeed. I would expound on them all, but I will instead suggest again that you pick up a copy of "Real Love" by Greg Baer. He explains all the techniques much better then I can on an Internet forum. (not to mention they are his ideas in the first place ) If you want me to mail you a copy just send me a private email with your address and I will put one in the mail. Best of luck.

 

Love,

Carson

 

P.S. Love is Love is Love. Romantic, conditional, imitation, these are all just incomplete versions of REAL (Unconditional) Love. IMO of course

 

PPS. The definition of Imitation Love is not people having something in common, it is people using Getting and Protecting Behaviors" (running, attacking, lying and acting like a victim) to get "Imitation Love" (praise, power, pleasure and safety)

 

Uhm, I'm in Germany...

 

Hm, I just googled that Mr. Baer... is he still writing about relationships? I was talking more about that Buddhist ideal love, y'know being well-meaning towards everything in the universe and all that jazz. I don't think a book can help me with that, but thanks nonetheless

 

EDIT: Oh... wow. That "imitation love" sounds even worse than romantic love

Edited February 5, 2009 by Billy K

[CarsonZi]

Hi Billy K,

Uhm, I'm in Germany...

I know....I am in Canada. I'm willing to send it to you regardless. I enjoy sending people I don't know little presents in the mail. That's just how I do. haha.

Hm, I just googled that Mr. Baer... is he still writing about relationships?

I believe so....Real Love isn't that old and he also has titles like Real Love in Marriage etc. so I'm pretty sure he is still writing. Real Love is definitely still available for order as a friend of mine on the AYP forums just ordered it for herself and she lives in Norway so......you can get it if you want.

I was talking more about that Buddhist ideal love, y'know being well-meaning towards everything in the universe and all that jazz.

Doesn't matter...IMO there is only one and that is LOVE. Buddhist, imitation, blah blah blah, all comes down to Unconditional love....for everyone and everything.

I don't think a book can help me with that, but thanks nonetheless

You wouldn't think so, but for me, the AYP (Advanced Yoga Practices) books (by Yogani), Real Love (by Greg Baer), Loving What Is (by Byron Katie) and Autobiography of a Yogi (by Paramahansa Yogananda) are what:

1. Got me off a 12 year addiction to drugs. (IV meth and heroin, methadone, ketamine, marijuana (a quater oz per day) and much more)

2. Put me in touch with my Inner Silence

3. Awakened my kundalini

4. Opened my Anahata chakra

5. Forced me to change my career from a corporate job to working at a homeless and rehab shelter teaching meditation and more.

 

Don't underestimate the power of the written word. Especially divinely inspired written words.

 

Love,

Carson

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[Aetherous]

It's part of life to be attached to people and things...I don't think it should be, or can be avoided. If someone fools themselves into thinking they're unattached to their lover, it doesn't solve anything. They will find they're still stuck in the same place spiritually, perhaps even worse off. If they suddenly pass away one day, and you find yourself holding back tears...then really what has that idea accomplished?

 

So I think it's totally pointless to deny yourself of your instincts and natural disposition. It does nothing spiritually. What does a lot spiritually is honesty with yourself, and awareness of everything going on in your choices.

 

So in my opinion, it's more about transcending attachments (by being conscious of the reasons for your actions), than trying to rid yourself of them.

 

Puppy love is a good thing. Real love is a great thing.

[rain]

scotty I think that answer came from an old soul who confuses attachment with love..I believe that

love is about the ability to transcend attachment and does NOT ask for reasons and thus is superior.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zje20q1eRCY...feature=related

 

 

....5 mins later I am stuffing myself with chocolate..how come?

Edited February 5, 2009 by rain

[ddilulo_06]

So, are there any methods, that can make one "immune" to the bad kind of love, while at least still retaining the potential for "good" love?

To be totally honest, I never got why people talk about love as something good. It's an useless distraction at best, and a life-shattering catastrophe at worst (which is, judging from most people's experiences, the norm).

So, no thanks, I'd rather get rid of that emotion.

 

Sounds like you don't remember what love is.

 

You are referring to neediness. I agree, that feeling sucks.

 

Love is the at the core of your being. If you peel away all the drama and BS you've convinced yourself is real, then you will know love.

[Lightbringer]

It's part of life to be attached to people and things...I don't think it should be, or can be avoided. If someone fools themselves into thinking they're unattached to their lover, it doesn't solve anything. They will find they're still stuck in the same place spiritually, perhaps even worse off. If they suddenly pass away one day, and you find yourself holding back tears...then really what has that idea accomplished?

 

So I think it's totally pointless to deny yourself of your instincts and natural disposition. It does nothing spiritually. What does a lot spiritually is honesty with yourself, and awareness of everything going on in your choices.

 

So in my opinion, it's more about transcending attachments (by being conscious of the reasons for your actions), than trying to rid yourself of them.

 

Puppy love is a good thing. Real love is a great thing.

 

+1 for this guy. It really is that simple. Keep looking at what you're doing, what you're thinking, what you're feeling (and what others are doing/thinking/feeling) when it comes to relationships and they become clearer and clearer (and subsequently easier). It's like being in a labyrinth and expecting to be able to see straight from the beginning to the end. You'll just end up trying to look through walls. Instead, focus on getting yourself to the next corner, then look towards the next.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Lightbringer

[Tegan]

oh..you know.. I think I have somethings that are personal..and relevant to add to this. But, I tend to ramble, so I'll come back when my thoughts are more succinct.

Luckily you got some really good answers after posted, and I don't have to ramble now.

 

I've heard the lovey-dovey hippie theories of past life connections, but if that was the case, we'd all be happily in love once we found someone, and we'd never be sad.

 

Yes, I don't give much credence to this either.

I don't give much credence to it either, but that's my personal belief system in play.

 

Even so, I can see why people bring this up for a couple of reasons.

 

The two times I've fallen in 'romantic love' there was a connectedness that felt so immediately right and natural that it seemed it needed to be explained somehow...kismet..serendipity..chemistry..past lives? Both times I was whumped on my butt..saw fireworks..had the heart tug thing..all of it. I was attracted to their mind, body, and spirit equally. It's a different feeling from lust. Or from friendship. So I can see the desire for people to try and give meaning to it.

 

Also, I think this is a way for people to justify the concept of 'soul mates'. There are also various reasons people feel a desire to do this. Either they're looking for someone or something they haven't found, so...they explain their waiting as looking for their soul mate. Lots of people out there put lots of energy into this ideal idea. Also the idea of a soul mate explains away heart ache in an easy way. It lets a person attach an immediate easy meaning to heart ache..'I wouldn't feel this bad if someone/something hadn't ripped my soul mate away from me'. It's a way of dealing..without having to deal. By attaching a reason that's beyond your control is sometimes an easier way for people to deal with intense emotions. The idea of a soul mate can also explain for some people why they are capable of falling in love more then once in life. I think some people feel guilty about this. If they can explain it to the past life soul mate theory, it relieves some of their guilt. Again, it gives them an easy way out to deal with intense emotions. If someone can attribute one soul mate to a past life, then it should work with multiple soul mates also.

 

If there was a system to it, we shouldn't fall in love all over the place, yet we do. Then again, there must be a system to it, since there's a system to everything else in this universe.

 

We fall in love all over the place because we recognize in others what we love about ourselves. If we can turn that desire for love into bhakti for ourselves we will soon find that we are "in love" with the entire of humanity. And this is truly a beautiful thing from my experience.

This whole thing was a good transition ^ And made me pause to think.

 

People definitely shouldn't feel like their falling in 'romantic love' all over the place. If so, then your life would be miserable I agree that would be forms of 'imitation love'.

[Mal]

If you like exploring these kinds of feelings try loving kindness meditation

[Adj]

I believe the concept of romantic love is a giant fallacy.

 

When you are with some one you are attracted to on a core level the past and the future cease to exist and what you experience is the moment. Being in the moment is characterized as deep LOVE.

 

But we as creatures of the mind link that the PERSON created that feeling of LOVE, but in truth it was simply being in the moment and its just one big misunderstanding.

 

I've been heart broken, like everyone has here, enough times to realize that the sensation of heartbreak does not make sense which lead to my study of love.

 

 

And honestly, I think its one big misunderstanding.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

 

A few years ago I woke up in the morning from a dream. It was delightful, in it there was a woman who I loved. I felt a deep core LOVE for her. It was unmistakable. And I thought, "Wow wouldn't it be great to have a girl who I can love like that." And it wasn't until later on in the day that I realized something huge....

 

Even though there was no one person to feel deep love towards I felt it towards that girl in my dream, unfortunately, (or fortunately) she does not exist! This means that LOVE comes from within! It has NOTHING to do with the other person.

 

After realizing that I figured out how to live and feel in love without it being directed anywhere in particular, I could just feel it radiating within.

 

At this time I came across something my mind was suddenly open to, "When purely in the moment you experience the sensation of love."

 

Then it suddenly all made sense and this is why I live every day in overflowing love but do not particularly love some one directly. And when I meditate I feel an intensification of it as I sink into the present moment.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Adj

[Lightbringer]

Even though there was no one person to feel deep love towards I felt it towards that girl in my dream, unfortunately, (or fortunately) she does not exist! This means that LOVE comes from within! It has NOTHING to do with the other person.

 

Self-love is very important, but if you're ever going to avoid the heartbreak when neediness sneaks it's way into your relationships, you have to realize something else: Love DOES come from other people. It's APPROVAL which should only come from within. When enlightened, you will have all the love you will ever need, but having good people in your life is key to getting there. Love people for their perfect bits, those glimpses of the perfect man and woman and soon you'll see those perfect bits are part of ever-changing, perfect wholes. Love others, and you'll have more love returned to you than you'll know what to do with.

 

For example, what you remember loving in that dream wasn't a human woman but the very essence of femininity itself. Ultimately, it's what every man loves in each woman. If you love the femininity of your partners rather than their transient qualities, then it allows for a successful relationship. There is no heartbreak, no falling out of love, because what you love is always there. Love can change forms, and sometimes individuals grow apart, but there is such a thing as a happy, mutual break up. So it's all good news, you can learn to love fully without getting hurt, and you can find that perfectness in each woman. Eventually, with enough time and enough nurturing of that femininity in a particular woman, the baggage drops away and you're left with just love and happiness.

 

Edit: Ever write something then read it and feel like you had nothing to do with writing it? Maybe I wrote this more for myself... I swear it's not narcissism!

Edited February 7, 2009 by Lightbringer

[the buddha & the beast]

Dont confuse heartache with love. Heartache is caused by attachment, plain and simple. If you truly love someone and deduce that even despite that, your paths will not be concurrent, why the heartache? Look deeper and you'll find it derives from a selfish 'they make me feel good, so I want to feel more of that' and not from a giving, loving perspective.

 

 

i completely agree with you. i think that the whole "stay with me forever; i need you" thing is very selfish & not @ all real love. real love would just want the other person to be @ peace, with or without the romantic relationship with them. so many songs and movies and books around here are based around this concept of suffocation and insanity with "love"...it's kind of scary.

[Sunya]

this thread has been excellent so far thank you.

 

I ordered that book mentioned, Real Love: The Truth About Finding Unconditional Love and Fulfilling Relationships by Greg Baer. its exactly what I've been looking for, i'm at a part in my life where this is one of my main issues, and just today i was thinking about how I can have more meaningful relationships with people.

 

i'm a young male, and i'm pretty programmed to see girls that i'm attracted to as a pleasure "thing", they get me so excited, and in the past relationships i've had once that excitement wears off.. i find them dull and uninteresting, but of course i'm still attached because sex feels good, and so does "having someone", being alone sucks, or so i'm led to believe. so my to do list: love myself and be ok with being alone, not to see people as objects that give me something but rather find people interesting and want to give approval, love, care, or just share life.

 

i agree that attachment is the cause of heartache, neediness.. clinginess.. i know that all too well. it's one of my demons, haunts me. is there such thing as romantic love without attachment? i think that a lot of the opinions expressed on this thread are excellent, but a bit negative towards romance. i think that attachment does come from sex, because ,well, it feels good! but say you don't need a person for emotional dependence, but you really connect with them, and are at the level of spiritual evolution where you are no longer attached to physical pleasure. can't sex be used as a tool for communication? for furthering that connection?

[sunshine]

i think that attachment does come from sex, because ,well, it feels good!

 

Can't really agree with you here... to me the trouble is when one wants to have a person close but can't for whatever reasons... for some reason one is "lacking something"... and it is not in essence the question of whether you have sexual intercourse or not...

 

 

Harry