Djwal Kuhl & Esoteric Acupuncture

[sunshine]

Thankx so far to those responding to the Kundalini & Lucifer Thread...

 

So: Djwal Kuhl seems to be utilized by several people as an Ascended Master whom they claim to be in communication with...

 

in the medical community aside from Serge, who is claiming to know the true energetic principles in acupunctire based on esoteric law, there is Mikio Sankey

 

http://esotericacupuncture.blogspot.com/

 

I don't know if Serge and Mikio are in any way related to each other (haven't ask and for now don'T think so)...

 

but I am curious: is anyone familiar with this Djwal Kuhl, knows Esoteric Acupuncture etc.

 

I would fear to use these Esoteric Patterns if there are any good reasons not to utilize those

 

 

there was an argument in the other thread that claiming the ways of Islam, Hermetics etc. are not true is futile... that might be true, but isnt it true as well that many claim that the "New era" can't actually rely on the teachings of old, as the energetic laws on earth change?

 

just wondering

 

thankx in advance

 

Harry

[Ya Mu]

I looked at the site reference but it was unclear to me exactly what this form is.

I do know, from my own practice, that many of the things taught in straight TCM including many of the treatments are not as in harmony with direct energetic healing as some of the medical qigong systems. What I mean by this is that in the qigong style acupuncture quite often a much more direct approach works faster and better than a complicated analysis.

I think you make a good point about changing energetics as I certainly believe that everything is dynamic and not static. None of this changes the fact that energy channels exist and energy vortices exist where the energy can be manipulated. But quite often I have found myself going to a more refined approach based on the energies that are NOW.

[ralis]

I looked at the site reference but it was unclear to me exactly what this form is.

I do know, from my own practice, that many of the things taught in straight TCM including many of the treatments are not as in harmony with direct energetic healing as some of the medical qigong systems. What I mean by this is that in the qigong style acupuncture quite often a much more direct approach works faster and better than a complicated analysis.

I think you make a good point about changing energetics as I certainly believe that everything is dynamic and not static. None of this changes the fact that energy channels exist and energy vortices exist where the energy can be manipulated. But quite often I have found myself going to a more refined approach based on the energies that are NOW.

 

 

I live in Santa Fe NM and several of my good friends who are DOM's told me that Chinese medicine is cultural revolution medicine. It is a known fact that Mao killed off intellectuals, medical people, teachers etc. Also books were burned and anyone practicing the Tao was killed off. Therefor I agree that TCM is generally not in harmony energetically. We are fortunate that some of the ancient knowledge is resurfacing.

 

ralis

[sunshine]

"Ya Mu": I do have 3 of the 4 boosk on Esoteric Acupuncture somewhere. As it is this teacher claims to have been getting certain needling patterns transferred by D. Khul. Some are just fo healing, many are a kind of laying out a path for spiritual transformation and "ascension"... on that side you can find examples of some of these patterns.

 

I personally am not so much into TCM... more into Japanese Acupuncture & I enjoy Dr. Tan's utilization of I Ching Acpuncture...

 

what I wonder is: say we have a shift in north/south pole, which supposedly is pretty close, actually overdue... will that change the flow in the channels?

 

And if we actually enter a new "energetic area"... that might render some of the chakras useless for example (just an assumption) and might change much more in the energetic pathways of the body.

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[ralis]

"Ya Mu": I do have 3 of the 4 boosk on Esoteric Acupuncture somewhere. As it is this teacher claims to have been getting certain needling patterns transferred by D. Khul. Some are just fo healing, many are a kind of laying out a path for spiritual transformation and "ascension"... on that side you can find examples of some of these patterns.

 

I personally am not so much into TCM... more into Japanese Acupuncture & I enjoy Dr. Tan's utilization of I Ching Acpuncture...

 

what I wonder is: say we have a shift in north/south pole, which supposedly is pretty close, actually overdue... will that change the flow in the channels?

 

And if we actually enter a new "energetic area"... that might render some of the chakras useless for example (just an assumption) and might change much more in the energetic pathways of the body.

 

with smiles

 

Harry

 

Dr. Tan? Link?

 

ralis

[NeutralWire]

Hey Sunshine -

 

Let me just address this:

there was an argument in the other thread that claiming the ways of Islam, Hermetics etc. are not true is futile... that might be true, but isnt it true as well that many claim that the "New era" can't actually rely on the teachings of old, as the energetic laws on earth change?

 

Essentially what you're arguing is that the entire structure of the universe in both microcosm and macrocosm is going to change so that what used to be true is now wrong?

 

The number of traditions which progress through a series of spheres on the way to the formless is very large -- I only mentioned a few I know of. Now this argument you've been given is, the further you progress into what you think is enlightenment, the more you're actually binding yourself in with the 'Lords of Form', and at the end of the process it's 'too late' and you're 'theirs'. Right?

 

In actual fact though:

 

Each sphere you go through is more rarefied than the physical and than the last. Whatever tradition you're speaking of, earth is the beginning and it is most dense. You move away from form. How can you simultaneously move away from form and also become more trapped in form?

 

The reason you progress through such a system is to refine yourself for the greater crossing into formlessness. That's true of every system I mentioned. Let's take Hermetics, the one I know best. You progress through the spheres and then at a certain point you manage to go past finity, past sequentialization, past form (known as 'crossing the Abyss') and are presented with the underlying reality.

 

This is exactly what Rawn Clark, for example, describes, and this must have happened to him reasonably recently! Therefore the rules haven't changed. Of course not. The point is that the previous gradual stepping up through the spheres prepares you for the great moment when you are able to leave form behind. It is the very opposite of being trapped in form. Yes, you do become aware of a hierarchy of powers and divine entities, etc., on your way. But no, you absolutely do not get caught up with them in some kind of eternal damnation!

 

It is manifest nonsense, as well, that the 'Lords of Form' should be seen as somehow 'bad guys', controlling the human race against the will of God. On the contrary, these Lords fulfill the role God lays out, as do all things. They do indeed prevent some from full realization for a while -- to be precise, they prevent those who are not ready. Those who have more to learn must wait, and that is the only reason one couldn't 'attain the Tao' by such methods as these -- it is nothing to do with being trapped by a practice and everything to do with needing to learn more and be wiser. Just good, simple human stuff.

 

The hierarchy of divine beings that one learns about on the way up all without exception is fulfilling God's will. Awareness of them expands one as an individual and one becomes more and more ready, from what one learns, for the great crossing.

 

And if it's true of Hermetics, it's definitely true of Kundalini yoga. The stuff I learned from Glenn Morris worked very similarly -- there is an ascent and there are levels of the universe -- there always have been and there always will be. These things are not going to change just because there is a 'new age' on earth! People are still using these methods right now for enlightenment. The entire hierarchy of angels and genii and gods is not going to suddenly become an evil entrapment for humanity, and the celestial spheres are not suddenly going to warp out of shape!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[ralis]

Hey Sunshine -

 

Let me just address this:

Essentially what you're arguing is that the entire structure of the universe in both microcosm and macrocosm is going to change so that what used to be true is now wrong?

 

The number of traditions which progress through a series of spheres on the way to the formless is very large -- I only mentioned a few I know of. Now this argument you've been given is, the further you progress into what you think is enlightenment, the more you're actually binding yourself in with the 'Lords of Form', and at the end of the process it's 'too late' and you're 'theirs'. Right?

 

In actual fact though:

 

Each sphere you go through is more rarefied than the physical and than the last. Whatever tradition you're speaking of, earth is the beginning and it is most dense. You move away from form. How can you simultaneously move away from form and also become more trapped in form?

 

The reason you progress through such a system is to refine yourself for the greater crossing into formlessness. That's true of every system I mentioned. Let's take Hermetics, the one I know best. You progress through the spheres and then at a certain point you manage to go past finity, past sequentialization, past form (known as 'crossing the Abyss') and are presented with the underlying reality.

 

This is exactly what Rawn Clark, for example, describes, and this must have happened to him reasonably recently! Therefore the rules haven't changed. Of course not. The point is that the previous gradual stepping up through the spheres prepares you for the great moment when you are able to leave form behind. It is the very opposite of being trapped in form. Yes, you do become aware of a hierarchy of powers and divine entities, etc., on your way. But no, you absolutely do not get caught up with them in some kind of eternal damnation!

 

It is manifest nonsense, as well, that the 'Lords of Form' should be seen as somehow 'bad guys', controlling the human race against the will of God. On the contrary, these Lords fulfill the role God lays out, as do all things. They do indeed prevent some from full realization for a while -- to be precise, they prevent those who are not ready. Those who have more to learn must wait, and that is the only reason one couldn't 'attain the Tao' by such methods as these -- it is nothing to do with being trapped by a practice and everything to do with needing to learn more and be wiser. Just good, simple human stuff.

 

The hierarchy of divine beings that one learns about on the way up all without exception is fulfilling God's will. Awareness of them expands one as an individual and one becomes more and more ready, from what one learns, for the great crossing.

 

And if it's true of Hermetics, it's definitely true of Kundalini yoga. The stuff I learned from Glenn Morris worked very similarly -- there is an ascent and there are levels of the universe -- there always have been and there always will be. These things are not going to change just because there is a 'new age' on earth! People are still using these methods right now for enlightenment. The entire hierarchy of angels and genii and gods is not going to suddenly become an evil entrapment for humanity, and the celestial spheres are not suddenly going to warp out of shape!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

Sounds like Sri Gary Olsen's and Eckankar's description of the universe. It is postulated that at some point in time we realize some error in thinking and awareness that caused us to fall into form in the first place. Then we become formless. Is this a fact? I have no idea. All these so called hierarchies and beings seem to be culturally dependent. Namkai Norbu says that these beings, deities etc. are our own nature.

 

As for Rawn Clark it seems as though he was seeing the universe through the Bardon system. It is said that if one is doing Jungian analysis ones views the universe as Jungian archetypes. If one is a Hindu or Buddhist one views the universe through those particular world views.

 

The way I see it, the universe is nothing more than compressed light frequencies in myriad forms. The substance of it all is open to infinite creativity and conjecture. Formless or not one will never comprehend the universe. Or should I say infinity. Absolute verbal descriptions about the so called nature of it all i,e. the isness of reality are completely useless and miss the point.

 

ralis

[Ya Mu]

I live in Santa Fe NM and several of my good friends who are DOM's told me that Chinese medicine is cultural revolution medicine. It is a known fact that Mao killed off intellectuals, medical people, teachers etc. Also books were burned and anyone practicing the Tao was killed off. Therefor I agree that TCM is generally not in harmony energetically. We are fortunate that some of the ancient knowledge is resurfacing.

ralis

 

I guess it depends on one's viewpoint but I have found, for myself as well as for many of my students, that it is really easy to get bogged down in the "can't see the forest because the trees get in the way" syndrome when practicing Chinese Medicine.

My teacher, Teacher Wang Jue Min, was jailed and tortured for 17 years during the cultural revolution. He said it was "now time" for the energetic techniques he had preserved and perfected to be taught in the west.

[Ya Mu]

"Ya Mu": I do have 3 of the 4 boosk on Esoteric Acupuncture somewhere. As it is this teacher claims to have been getting certain needling patterns transferred by D. Khul. Some are just fo healing, many are a kind of laying out a path for spiritual transformation and "ascension"... on that side you can find examples of some of these patterns.

 

I personally am not so much into TCM... more into Japanese Acupuncture & I enjoy Dr. Tan's utilization of I Ching Acpuncture...

 

what I wonder is: say we have a shift in north/south pole, which supposedly is pretty close, actually overdue... will that change the flow in the channels?

 

And if we actually enter a new "energetic area"... that might render some of the chakras useless for example (just an assumption) and might change much more in the energetic pathways of the body.

 

with smiles

 

Harry

 

I have studied some of the Japanese style and was impressed with it. I do a Taoist medicine technique that Dr Yamamoto's (spelling?) scalp acupuncture seems remarkably close to. But I don't use the needles.

I have noticed some things about the energetics that gives credence to the changing of energetic application and perhaps "law". One thing I have noticed is that over the years, the ability for any particular person to "get" the qigong has increased. And no, I'm not talking about my personal evolution with it but the fact that 15 years ago almost no one could step into a class and project energy immediately after a few hrs of qigong. Now it happens quite often. And this is not from any of these people having ever been exposed to qigong before but a definite, discernible change. I think it is not too far fetched to say that the energy centers, as microcosmic reflections of the whole, will change as everything else does.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Ya Mu

[NeutralWire]

Namkai Norbu says that these beings, deities etc. are our own nature.

 

Well we don't want to have a rather dull argument here! I will just say: it is emphatically not the case that gods and angels, etc. are the creations of humanity. But I'll only say it once, promise.

 

It is said that if one is doing Jungian analysis ones views the universe as Jungian archetypes. If one is a Hindu or Buddhist one views the universe through those particular world views.

 

One does indeed -- but this is in terms of the clothing and not the substance. You do in fact see the substance with these systems (well the esoteric ones anyhow, I can't speak for Jungian analysis). The communication of that substance goes through the cultural system, absolutely. I guarantee you that the 'uncarved wood' is visible through the carving with all these systems though. Again I won't go on and on about it.

 

The substance of it all is open to infinite creativity and conjecture.

 

... the substance is extremely complex and indeed infinitely explorable -- but that doesn't mean there aren't certain hard facts available! On the contrary, what it means is that you can't exhaust the facts.

 

Absolute verbal descriptions about the so called nature of it all i,e. the isness of reality are completely useless and miss the point.

 

Again I disagree with your implication, which is that I gave an 'absolute verbal description of it all' -- I didn't. Rawn Clark would agree with you that anything said about the universe, especially from the point of view of an infinite unity, is bound to be misleading. Where I think he'd disagree (where I would anyway) is with the idea that because there is more to discover, somehow what has already been discovered is untrue.

 

We all have three tan tiens, seven chakras, and so forth. These things are changing, evolving structures, but they are nonetheless -- structures! Just as certain numbers of arms, legs, and so on, are structures in a human body. It is the very fact that these structures exist and have been identified and used for enlightenment purposes which makes spiritual traditions possible.

 

The universe, in short, is infinite but far from unstructured! It is packed with harmony. Spiritual traditions see some of that harmony -- to be precise, enough of it to be able to pass on and be worth preserving. Some things are peculiar to single traditions, but other things have been more generally observed by multitudes of spiritual explorers from multiple traditions. Those things are simply, reliably the case. It doesn't mean there's no more to discover. What it does mean is that 'absolute verbal descriptions' of those things that have proved reliably true are far from 'completely useless' -- in fact I would say they are essential to the human race and constitute easily its most important achievements.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[ralis]

Well we don't want to have a rather dull argument here! I will just say: it is emphatically not the case that gods and angels, etc. are the creations of humanity. But I'll only say it once, promise.

One does indeed -- but this is in terms of the clothing and not the substance. You do in fact see the substance with these systems (well the esoteric ones anyhow, I can't speak for Jungian analysis). The communication of that substance goes through the cultural system, absolutely. I guarantee you that the 'uncarved wood' is visible through the carving with all these systems though. Again I won't go on and on about it.

... the substance is extremely complex and indeed infinitely explorable -- but that doesn't mean there aren't certain hard facts available! On the contrary, what it means is that you can't exhaust the facts.

Again I disagree with your implication, which is that I gave an 'absolute verbal description of it all' -- I didn't. Rawn Clark would agree with you that anything said about the universe, especially from the point of view of an infinite unity, is bound to be misleading. Where I think he'd disagree (where I would anyway) is with the idea that because there is more to discover, somehow what has already been discovered is untrue.

 

We all have three tan tiens, seven chakras, and so forth. These things are changing, evolving structures, but they are nonetheless -- structures! Just as certain numbers of arms, legs, and so on, are structures in a human body. It is the very fact that these structures exist and have been identified and used for enlightenment purposes which makes spiritual traditions possible.

 

The universe, in short, is infinite but far from unstructured! It is packed with harmony. Spiritual traditions see some of that harmony -- to be precise, enough of it to be able to pass on and be worth preserving. Some things are peculiar to single traditions, but other things have been more generally observed by multitudes of spiritual explorers from multiple traditions. Those things are simply, reliably the case. It doesn't mean there's no more to discover. What it does mean is that 'absolute verbal descriptions' of those things that have proved reliably true are far from 'completely useless' -- in fact I would say they are essential to the human race and constitute easily its most important achievements.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

'Absolute verbal descriptions' are semantic traps leading nowhere, because there are no 'absolute verbal descriptions'. Even the so called structure of chakras is debated.

 

What important achievements are you referring to that display some sort of absoluteness?

 

Harmony? I agree in part. However without chaos and change there would be no harmony. Did you know that the quantum level exhibits no gravitational forces. What does that say about what is going on? I have no answer!! LOL!!

 

ralis

[sunshine]

Thankx Ya Mu... really do hope to meet you some tome in the following years...

 

ralis: www.drtanshow.com

 

neutralwire:

 

I am not really arguing about anything here. Actually I do hope do get some more insights. I am in no way claiming of what the other guys claim to be my belief... but sure enough it tends to "influence" me and make me wonder about a few things.

 

>>Essentially what you're arguing is that the entire structure of the universe in both microcosm and macrocosm is going to change so that what used to be true is now wrong?<<

 

Well. No. What was right was right... but with change it might just not be applicable any longer.

 

>>The number of traditions which progress through a series of spheres on the way to the formless is very large -- I only mentioned a few I know of. Now this argument you've been given is, the further you progress into what you think is enlightenment, the more you're actually binding yourself in with the 'Lords of Form', and at the end of the process it's 'too late' and you're 'theirs'. Right?<<

 

If I got the idea right it is like that:

humanity developed from the breath of God... at the beginning it was still resonating in the "frequency" of God... but the farther away it came from God it lost its original resonating frequency and started to vibrate in a modified one. While one could argue that if the universe actually is God and we are in God, this can not be true... I feel the idea to be quite fascinating: the farther we are away from the original source the less we are in direct resonance with it, while its "sound" still can be in us as a seed we do not fully recognize.

 

>>Each sphere you go through is more rarefied than the physical and than the last. Whatever tradition you're speaking of, earth is the beginning and it is most dense. You move away from form. How can you simultaneously move away from form and also become more trapped in form?<<

 

Well. If you believe you move away from form as the illusion (by whatever "false practice" induced) leads you to believe you do, then there is no doubt it is at least a possibility to become more trapped in form.

 

 

>>And if it's true of Hermetics, it's definitely true of Kundalini yoga. The stuff I learned from Glenn Morris worked very similarly -- there is an ascent and there are levels of the universe -- there always have been and there always will be. These things are not going to change just because there is a 'new age' on earth! People are still using these methods right now for enlightenment. The entire hierarchy of angels and genii and gods is not going to suddenly become an evil entrapment for humanity, and the celestial spheres are not suddenly going to warp out of shape!<<

 

Well. In a way this discussion could be viewed as the discussion that is often discussed:

do we have to develop something or do we just have to peel of the layers and get to the core. Serge would likely claim that all this energy work for ascension lets you ascend into an illusionary spiritual paradise ... he would say that learning bliss techniques, techniques that just make you feel good but cover your underlying true emotions thereby not letting you deal with them lead you away from the true essence of God...

 

don't quote me on that though

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[ralis]

Thankx Ya Mu... really do hope to meet you some tome in the following years...

 

ralis: www.drtanshow.com

 

neutralwire:

 

I am not really arguing about anything here. Actually I do hope do get some more insights. I am in no way claiming of what the other guys claim to be my belief... but sure enough it tends to "influence" me and make me wonder about a few things.

 

>>Essentially what you're arguing is that the entire structure of the universe in both microcosm and macrocosm is going to change so that what used to be true is now wrong?<<

 

Well. No. What was right was right... but with change it might just not be applicable any longer.

 

>>The number of traditions which progress through a series of spheres on the way to the formless is very large -- I only mentioned a few I know of. Now this argument you've been given is, the further you progress into what you think is enlightenment, the more you're actually binding yourself in with the 'Lords of Form', and at the end of the process it's 'too late' and you're 'theirs'. Right?<<

 

If I got the idea right it is like that:

humanity developed from the breath of God... at the beginning it was still resonating in the "frequency" of God... but the farther away it came from God it lost its original resonating frequency and started to vibrate in a modified one. While one could argue that if the universe actually is God and we are in God, this can not be true... I feel the idea to be quite fascinating: the farther we are away from the original source the less we are in direct resonance with it, while its "sound" still can be in us as a seed we do not fully recognize.

 

>>Each sphere you go through is more rarefied than the physical and than the last. Whatever tradition you're speaking of, earth is the beginning and it is most dense. You move away from form. How can you simultaneously move away from form and also become more trapped in form?<<

 

Well. If you believe you move away from form as the illusion (by whatever "false practice" induced) leads you to believe you do, then there is no doubt it is at least a possibility to become more trapped in form.

>>And if it's true of Hermetics, it's definitely true of Kundalini yoga. The stuff I learned from Glenn Morris worked very similarly -- there is an ascent and there are levels of the universe -- there always have been and there always will be. These things are not going to change just because there is a 'new age' on earth! People are still using these methods right now for enlightenment. The entire hierarchy of angels and genii and gods is not going to suddenly become an evil entrapment for humanity, and the celestial spheres are not suddenly going to warp out of shape!<<

 

Well. In a way this discussion could be viewed as the discussion that is often discussed:

do we have to develop something or do we just have to peel of the layers and get to the core. Serge would likely claim that all this energy work for ascension lets you ascend into an illusionary spiritual paradise ... he would say that learning bliss techniques, techniques that just make you feel good but cover your underlying true emotions thereby not letting you deal with them lead you away from the true essence of God...

 

don't quote me on that though

 

with smiles

 

Harry

 

 

"Well we don't want to have a rather dull argument here! I will just say: it is emphatically not the case that gods and angels, etc. are the creations of humanity. But I'll only say it once, promise. smile.gif"

 

 

A little dogma here? Of the absolute sense?

 

 

 

ralis

Edited February 8, 2009 by ralis

[NeutralWire]

he would say that learning bliss techniques, techniques that just make you feel good but cover your underlying true emotions thereby not letting you deal with them lead you away from the true essence of God...

 

I believe I've said not only all I can on this but more than you have managed to understand... To gather the traditions of Hermetics, Kundalini Yoga, Celtic magic, and Islam (to name only four) under the ridiculously inadequate banner of 'bliss techniques' would be laughable. It is just plain nonsense.

 

The absolute beginning of Bardon's technique, step 1, is the itemising of every single fault and virtue in your soul. Does this sound like 'covering your underlying emotions'? On the contrary, you must deal with all of your emotions and be a totally balanced human being in his system before you can even begin energy work, never mind venturing through the spheres.

 

I'll say it only once more: if someone said this to me I would first laugh, assuming a joke, and if there was no answering laugh, I would politely excuse myself.

 

But we are all free to use our wills how we like! Good luck,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited February 8, 2009 by NeutralWire

[sunshine]

I believe I've said not only all I can on this but more than you have managed to understand... To gather the traditions of Hermetics, Kundalini Yoga, Celtic magic, and Islam (to name only four) under the ridiculously inadequate banner of 'bliss techniques' would be laughable. It is just plain nonsense.

 

Aside from what I manage to understand and what not... I haven't stated that Serge or I claim these to be bliss techniques... and just in case you get it false... I am not speaking for Serge...

 

 

Harry

[sasblamthanb]

Hi,

 

Does anyone have these Needling Sequencings that they could share

 

Discern the Whisper Pattern

Spirit Path Pattern

Indigo Triangle Pattern

Cube on Cube Pattern

Crown Infinity Pattern

Esoteric Shaoyin Heart Pattern

 

The links on EsotericAcupuncture seem to be disfunctional.

 

Many thanks.