Loose Change

[Spirit Ape]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=lose...;q=loose+change

[shontonga]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=lose...;q=loose+change

 

 

 

It's still hurts so badly.

and with such things the truth is seldom known.

We know what we get told.

We know what we want to believe.

But the story is written in languages we can not decipher.

Anything from any angle comes down to "spin".

 

Could just shrug ones shoulders and say "great mystery".

 

Wouldn't change or justify the lives lost.

Then or scince.

The bodies who's dust still blows in the winds there.

Yes. They still find bone fragments and wonder.

Or the people who are still sick with all that crazy shit from breathing it all in.

I don't know anyone around me who didn't know someone in that area that day.

Everybody knows where they were and what they wee doing when they heard.

People were fighting to get into the city just as folks were fighting to get out.

my own brother's car had a flat, he wanted to go, I wouldn't let him, had to actually fight him.

An ex-marine ... leave no man behind... no way to justify not going ... they had stopped all trains.

Was freaky that day... am not one to stay put... feel safer moving. Watching.

People just were drifting in shock gathering like tumble weeds in small groups around radios.

Got very scary watching some in the next few weeks. There are always many

hot headed assholes that always have a gun in their cars/trucks

and i have many loved ones in my life who could easily and wrongly have been targeted.

There was much trouble besides what happened in NY.

all the churches left there doors open ... i even wandered into one. Very erie.

If i go into my own memories it's easy to start shaking, the tears come very readily.

We were told that day there was 13 planes hijacked, unaccounted for.

Since that time it seems a depression has been underlaying the country.

Obama being voted in is the first time i've seen people start to come out of it.

Which is odd to me who has No faith in him per se?

but it is nice to see people daring to smile a little more openly.

I also don't think we'll ever know the truth of what happened.

Who could tell us. Who would believe them?

 

That was a lot of lives at once.

Still very fresh.

[Taoist81]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=lose...;q=loose+change

 

This crap has been debunked so many times by so many different people (and different types of people) that it is really sad that it still gets people's attention....

From Popular Mechanics to Penn and Teller....real evidence proves that there were 19 hijackers and they flew the planes into the towers, the pentagon and the field in PA. Building Seven was a loss that is easily understood by basic science.... These people are just as bad as, Creationists like the Discovery Institute, and interestingly use the same tactics to "prove" their preconceived notions.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Taoist81

[Aetherous]

Taoist81,

 

I agree...Loose Change is a joke of a movie. But do you have links to where it's been debunked? I never saw that.

[Jedi777]

sorry it has not been debunked the debunkers have been debunked over and over !

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Well after doing a lot of research about the sources on either side....

I wrote this long post that sounded political... Which I am not.

So I am at a loss, I can only stress that political views tend to narrow ones openness to reality.

 

Looked like another rediculous democrat vs. republican shtick *sigh*

I mean really the sources for the film were democrat... the debunk sources were republican. Awesome. Just makes me feel oh so good...

And now here is my post, short and sweet.

[Taoist81]

Taoist81,

 

I agree...Loose Change is a joke of a movie. But do you have links to where it's been debunked? I never saw that.

 

The arguments are no different than the other "members" of the 9/11 (pseudo)-truth movement make. A quick bit of Google fu will lead any open minded seeker to point by point analysis of each claim from any number of sources both so called liberal and conservative. They even had the film-makers of Loose Change come on NPR and debate with the guys from Popular Mechanics. The scientific approach of the latter was clear as was the conspiracy tell-tale tactics of the former. Scientific American has a good selection on both the case by case debunking of 9/11 (pseduo)Truth claims and Intelligent Design. Various Universities have looked into it....the list goes on.

 

Also, it is not just a liberal/conservative or Democrat/Republican disagreement. For example Bill Maher ("liberal") and Michael Medved (uber-conservative) have taken time to use their forums to discuss the evidence and while they disagree about just about everything else in the universe, they agree on this.

[ToP-fan]

Taoist81-things to consider and question:

 

1. Where was the "plane" that hit the Pentagon?

 

2. Why was there thermite and molten metal at

the base of the towers?

 

3. Why did over 200 firefighters have gag

orders on them to shut up about hearing

explosive charges going off?

 

4. Numerous scientists and physicists have

studied the way the towers fell and have

concluded that they were brought down

not flown into.(see #2 above)

 

5. Larry Silverstein who held the notes on the

towers and Building 7 is on record as saying

" after all the loss of life and devastation, we

decided to "pull" bldg. 7"

"Pull" is a demolition term used when they

take down buildings?

 

Why were there explosive charges planted

in a building?

 

6. Pilots with over 30 years experience were

quoted that "Nobody who had limited flight

experience could bring in planes so precise

and accurate" through the Manhattan sky-

line.

 

There are so many theories as to why this

terrible event occured, but it was definitely

NOT 19 hijackers who were pissed off at

America and our way of life who pulled of

something of this magnitude.

 

 

Black Ops?..............New World Order?............The

Illuminati?...............on and on...........throw some

disinfo into the mix and all our heads are

spinning...........just like THEY want.

[Spirit Ape]

I agree with top fan well said man!!

[Taoist81]

Taoist81-things to consider and question:

 

1. Where was the "plane" that hit the Pentagon?

 

2. Why was there thermite and molten metal at

the base of the towers?

 

3. Why did over 200 firefighters have gag

orders on them to shut up about hearing

explosive charges going off?

 

4. Numerous scientists and physicists have

studied the way the towers fell and have

concluded that they were brought down

not flown into.(see #2 above)

 

5. Larry Silverstein who held the notes on the

towers and Building 7 is on record as saying

" after all the loss of life and devastation, we

decided to "pull" bldg. 7"

"Pull" is a demolition term used when they

take down buildings?

 

Why were there explosive charges planted

in a building?

 

6. Pilots with over 30 years experience were

quoted that "Nobody who had limited flight

experience could bring in planes so precise

and accurate" through the Manhattan sky-

line.

 

There are so many theories as to why this

terrible event occured, but it was definitely

NOT 19 hijackers who were pissed off at

America and our way of life who pulled of

something of this magnitude.

Black Ops?..............New World Order?............The

Illuminati?...............on and on...........throw some

disinfo into the mix and all our heads are

spinning...........just like THEY want.

 

Because all of these points have been debunked to death no time will be wasted retyping or even cutting and pasting the facts here. Just to start you off, since you may have missed the "google" comment above here are some links to educate yourself with. All of your questions are covered, as they are simply regurgitations of old, bad information. And your comment about scientists and pilots is misguided. IDers can find "scientists" out the wazoo that will claim that only the Bible can show us the true Science, that doesn't make it true that the Earth stood still for a day. In the following you will find plenty of information to the contrary about both pilots and scientists. Oh, and they use real evidence, not just "hey, why would they have said ____ in the middle of the largest crisis any of them had ever dealt with. He had to have meant what we want him to have meant!".

 

http://www.debunking911.com/links.htm

 

http://www.debunking911.com/

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/1227842.html

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I

[Spirit Ape]

Tao81,

 

Except that your Gov did this and move on!!!

[Taoist81]

Tao81,

 

Except that your Gov did this and move on!!!

you probably meant "accept", but....

 

See this is why the term "crap" was used above. Anytime the evidence is pointed out about this tragedy, all the 9/11 "Truthers" do is say "oh, get over it, the government did it, screw physical reality and all the evidence to the contrary!" Pointing out real evidence is just too "blind" and "trusting of the government", this despite the fact that many who have looked at the evidence (like Libertarians Penn and Teller for a showbiz example) are very distrusting of the government. They just accept what the evidence actually shows and don't give the government, especially the Bush administration, that much credit.

 

By the by, you guys do all know that there was no man on the grassy knoll, right? New digital analysis confirmed it, just like forensics debunked the second gunman "head flying in the wrong direction" hypothesis.

Oh, and the moon landing was real, that has been proven too.

[Spirit Ape]

Look I think there is some cover ups will the Truth be told, who knows!

 

Yes sorry it was accept my bad....

[Aetherous]

Ape,

 

When are you coming out with your DVDs?

[Taoist81]

Look I think there is some cover ups will the Truth be told, who knows!

 

Yes sorry it was accept my bad....

 

The most you could argue based on the evidence is that the government should have been better prepared and that they had some warning. The same was true of Pearl Harbor. However, based on all available evidence, and, contrary to what people like the director of this film claim, there is loads of evidence, the official story is pretty dead on. Hijacked planes, all three buildings, no explosives other than jet fuel, 19 hijackers (none of them are alive), shoddy handling by NORAD and most importantly and most often forgotten in these discussions: thousands of dead humans and many more affected by this. The facts are available. Saying the government covered up their stupidity is a far cry (and could feasibly be true) from claiming they did it.

 

Brother, it really would be good for you to look into the links. You are like millions of us, persuaded by fallacious arguments rampant in this conspiracy nut group. You will be amazed at how much can be proven plain as day that they deny. Peace.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Oh, and the moon landing was real, that has been proven too.

 

HAHAHAAH! Good witticism.

Course then again faced with someone telling me that the moon landing was shot in a crater filled field in Utah elictied an 'oh okay' response from me in which I excused myself and quickly walked away...

[Taoist81]

HAHAHAAH! Good witticism.

Course then again faced with someone telling me that the moon landing was shot in a crater filled field in Utah elictied an 'oh okay' response from me in which I excused myself and quickly walked away...

 

Depending on the degree of nuttiness, that is sometimes the best response : )

[ToP-fan]

Taoist81-You seem to want to be in a data pissing contest with anybody who points out the many flaws in the official fairytale of 9/11.

 

I don't know what research you've done, but you seem to have quite an emotional charge on the subject.

Governments have been attacking their own citizens for centuries, usually as a pretext for war.......If I go ahead and name some of the events, you'll probably accuse me of "Google Fu".

 

The statements I posted before are all fact and documented..............I've seen the video of Silverstein making the "pull" comment.

 

If you want to read a good book try "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler, the highest decorated Marine in 1934..............He fought in the Spanish American war and many others and came to realize that he was fighting for corporations and wars were created when economic conditions were low.

 

If I start a thread on "False Flag Terrorism" which 9/11 was, I'm sure you'll use the google card again, so instead of getting into a pissing contest with you.........I'm gonna go piss in the wind.

[xakarii]

Edited February 10, 2009 by xakarii

[hyok]

The most you could argue based on the evidence is that the government should have been better prepared and that they had some warning. The same was true of Pearl Harbor.

 

Having written various essays and researched the events of Pearl Harbor and consequent entrance of the US into WWII, I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that the US govt and intelligence community knew weeks in advance that the Japanese Air Force was planning to attack Pearl Harbor. They saw it as a way to enter the war and allowed it to happen.

 

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

[thelerner]

I studied it a little. The government had multiple chances to discover it, but a series of miscommunications and doing business as usual led to the Japanese being successful in there surprise attack. Reading evidence after the fact with perfect foreknowledge of what happened can lead to the wrong conclusion. The evidence you know, and is indeed true was only scattered maybes to the people who lived through it.

 

In the case of Pearl Harbor the government led multiple investigations and even trial into what went wrong. Peoples carreers were destroyed, it was not kept quiet. Ultimately you have to look deeply at the men involved, the whole body of work, the philosophy in which they lived there lives.

 

Its easy to say the illuminati did it, but in my opinion too simplistic. I understand the arguments that people have about Roosevelts and others complicity, but my view and research (probably less then yours) reveals its not true.

 

Michael

[Sloppy Zhang]

Its easy to say the illuminati did it, but in my opinion too simplistic. I understand the arguments that people have about Roosevelts and others complicity, but my view and research (probably less then yours) reveals its not true.

Michael

 

But what about OCCAM'S RAZOR?????

 

 

Sorry, people throw that around all the time to try and dismiss someone's claim or argument, and a lot of people think it's one of the most perfect tools out there, but it has obvious shortcomings.

 

You pretty much summed up Pearl Harbor conspiracies, and all these conspiracies, rather well. Sometimes there is no simple way of explaining something away, life can be incredibly simple or incredibly complex (but simple at the same time if you already know how something went down). Also, like you said, there were people involved who were probably not that significant in the grand scheme of things, but still got their lives ruined.

 

For 9/11 conspiracy specifically, I've seen good evidence on both sides (my dad is an engineer, has lots of engineering friends, and he knew a few people who evaluated the site, wrote up reports, got the data, performed experiments, and passed the information around). I've made my conclusion, I leave everyone to theirs.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Smile]

This is at least a second thread about this movie "Loose Change" and the theories about 9/11. Please use the search function - it does work. (Try http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...hange&st=0)

 

I just want to add to all my other posts in other threads related to 9/11. A good book to read about how government manipulates countries, people and events :

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic...1173&sr=8-3

"Economic hit men," John Perkins writes," are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. Their tools include fraudulent financial reports, rigged elections, payoffs, extortion, sex, and murder. They play a game as old as Empire but one that has taken on terrifying dimensions during this time of globalization." John Perkins should know-he was an economic hit man for an international consulting firm that worked to convince developing countries to accept enormous loans and to funnel that money to U.S. corporations. Once these countries were saddled with huge debts, the American government and international aid agencies were able to request their "pound of flesh" in favors, including access to natural resources, military cooperation, and political support. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is the story of one man's experiences inside the intrigue, greed, corruption and little-known government and corporate activities that America has been involved in since World War II, and which have dire consequences for the future of democracy and the world."

Edited February 11, 2009 by Smile

[Taoist81]

Taoist81-You seem to want to be in a data pissing contest with anybody who points out the many flaws in the official fairytale of 9/11.

 

I don't know what research you've done, but you seem to have quite an emotional charge on the subject.

Governments have been attacking their own citizens for centuries, usually as a pretext for war.......If I go ahead and name some of the events, you'll probably accuse me of "Google Fu".

 

The statements I posted before are all fact and documented..............I've seen the video of Silverstein making the "pull" comment.

 

If you want to read a good book try "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler, the highest decorated Marine in 1934..............He fought in the Spanish American war and many others and came to realize that he was fighting for corporations and wars were created when economic conditions were low.

 

If I start a thread on "False Flag Terrorism" which 9/11 was, I'm sure you'll use the google card again, so instead of getting into a pissing contest with you.........I'm gonna go piss in the wind.

 

It is not so much an "emotional charge" on the subject, as it is a "getting tired" of all these types of things. Be it Intelligent Design, Holocaust deniers or people who still think there was a second JFK shooter. These all have one glaring thing in common: they ignore the evidence that explains the questions Conspiracy Theorists raise. Like your example of Silverstein's comments, to keep beating this dead horse you have to ignore parts of what he has said and all of the rest of the semantics of "pull" to make it fit the "official" conspiracy story:

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

 

False Flag operations have been known to history, but 9/11 wasn't one. It is not about "data mining" (if you look at it honestly, that is the term for what is used to "prove" the 9/11 "thruth" claims), it is about honestly looking at all of the evidence.

 

Again, this is not to say that the government is some benevolent force for good in the universe, they used this tragedy to push for every nasty thing they wanted and many more people have sadly died for lies. They simply did not do what 9/11 "truth"ers claim.

Careful pissing in the wind, friend, it could get blown in your face. : )

 

"From Popular Mechanics to Penn and Teller"

 

Not to equate the two, just to show the divergent groups that agree on the matter. Plus, Bullshit! is a very entertaining show. : )

Edited February 11, 2009 by Taoist81

[Cameron]

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