What a Tosser!

[Aetherous]

How great can you be if you get winded after 10 minutes of rigorous performance though?

 

Well if you destroy any opponent in less than 1 minute...pretty great.

 

Personally, I think a person like Bruce Lee is a prime example of a great martial artist. He understood the importance of conditioning and nutrition.

 

I agree. Lee was a good example. There are tons of good guys out there. And I have tons of respect for MMA guys...a lot of them actually do train internal stuff, too. The problem is where they start training internal stuff and think that's all they need to compete.

 

I remember back when I was into RMAX stuff, Sonnon was training Andrei Arlovsky. I was all excited to watch the fight because Arlovsky was a heavyweight champ, and I had a lot of respect for Scott Sonnon's material. But then I saw the fight and it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO disappointing. Arlovsky got his ass handed to him.

 

So that's an example of beginning to learn something different and thinking that's all you need. To compete, you need to match the other guy's conditioning and skill, and THEN add in the special sauce (internal stuff). It's a very small part of actual fighting I think...in the ring or in the street or wherever. But when you add it in the right way, it can add a lot to your power and proprioception.

[gendao]

Well, internal power is very real and I've felt it.

 

However, I'm not sure about the typical IMA techniques and delivery systems for such power. Many of them rely upon blocking, bridging and parrying strikes. Sure, this can work well on slow, overextended punches.

 

Problem is, it's near-impossible on fast, snappy punches.

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Now try to "redirect" any of that! You'll end up chasing a blur of hands and get your ass handed back to you.

 

A fundamentally fast style would have only 1 move you have to perform for every 3 of his. Instead, most IMA techniques seem to require the opposite - like they throw 1 punch and "freeze" it while you do a sequence of about 3 moves to take them down.

 

Which basically means you'd have to move 3X as fast as them to pull that off. An incredible level of inefficiency.

 

 

 

I think if you could combine the silk-reeling, rooting and internal structure of IMA with a far more efficient delivery system - then you'd have something very, very potent against skilled competition!

[Spirit Ape]

VORTEX, You da man,,,,,,That is why I dont believe in any of these clips with push hands and bouncing people away saying this is REAL INTERNAL! No disrespect to those guys they are good at there push hands but that is not real fighting, boxers are to me more internal then any martial artist because they have mastered fitness and breathing, power, stamina, to last many many rounds put bruce or clyman in a ring guarenteed to be knocked the f@ck out within 20 seconds. Remember these people called masters sifu are also the same level as a pro fighter as they have done there time in developing there art/skills.

 

Now, Internal kung fu forms are absolutely awesome and great for healing and moving the chi around, but you have to then train the Gong (hard) side which is bags, fitness, strength to apply it all, not just push hands and playing games.

 

Cheers

Ape

Edited February 16, 2009 by Spirit Ape

[Spectrum]

There is knowledge and there is self respect and im sorry those fat bastards have lost there self respect and live of suckers (students) saying they have Qi!

 

Have you touched hands with any of these fat guys your talking shit about? The ONLY reason I bring this up is because I really enjoy reading first hand experiences, as there is nothing really unique about internet armchair warriorship. We can all go to bullshido and read up, but on a martial healing level the classics, and those who practice in any fashion might have something of value to offer, even if it's only a peice of the puzzle. I could sit here and judge these guys, really, but when it comes down to it, until I (or anyone) touches hands with them, you do not "know"...

 

What I'm trying to say is "careful you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

 

Strong body = strong mind = strong Qi that is my motto....

 

Your motto for success? This is how you've learned to cultivate "qi"?

 

Yi (mind) leads the Chi (applied energy), to Li (physical principle).

Edited February 16, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

VORTEX, You da man,,,,,,That is why I dont believe in any of these clips with push hands and bouncing people away saying this is REAL INTERNAL! No disrespect to those guys they are good at there push hands but that is not real fighting, boxers are to me more internal then any martial artist because they have mastered fitness and breathing, power, stamina,

 

Yes. Really there is no such thing as internal or external, because in application power manifests where internal and external harmonize. That's it. Where your power surfaces and releases at the right time and place. In a punch, in a kick, anything. To "master" fitness breathing power and stamina, you need to know how to relax (sung/song) while your body does work (gong/gung). The paradoxial thing here is this can be done by practicing at full velocities, OR... very very very slowly.

 

to last many many rounds put bruce or clyman in a ring guarenteed to be knocked the f@ck out within 20 seconds. Remember these people called masters sifu are also the same level as a pro fighter as they have done there time in developing there art/skills.

 

Those guys don't fight in rings. Approach him and ask to touch hands. You see, he's driving like a 72 Chevelle, and BJ Penn is driving what? One of them cruises the neighborhood, the other is down on the strip...

 

Now, Internal kung fu forms are absolutely awesome and great for healing and moving the chi around, but you have to then train the Gong (hard) side which is bags, fitness, strength to apply it all, not just push hands and playing games.

 

I agree that many "interenal" stylists do not understand the application of their form, by this I mean how to get "power" to leave their body in the form of a punch, a kick, etc, but you guys are being silly here... you do not box a boxer, you do not grapple a grappler. someone said "try to redirect any of that" in reference to quick hands... but think outside the box (ing) of conflict my friend... you do not redirect this way. U use a kick.

 

heavy stone and iron balls just like my art does for internal power, long heavy poles to bring forth Jing/Ging, rolling heavy bars of bambo or iron on the forearms, sand bags these are also found in Wudang, shaolin its part of physcial development so you have muscle force with Internal cultivation. Taiji form is soft must be balanced with what?

 

This is true to the music of the classics of muscle and tendon changing. Soft is balanced by hard. Motion by stillness. In order to understand how to relax, you must do so (initially) by bearing a "load". Ultimately though, when you overcome the load, your body information changes, THIS IS KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is not something that is in your head in the form of words. KNOWING requires WORK.

 

Here is a question, what if you took the 5 basic punches of boxing, and blended them into your taijiquan form? Or any form. What would that be like? Better yet, do it with 5lb wrist weights on...

then balance a book

on your head.

[Spirit Ape]

Spectrum,

 

You are a funny guys!!!

 

What do you study or learn? Your free style movement clip is that what you call internal movement?

 

My issue is that there weight shows they have no Mind control which means they eat sh!t, meaning there Chi isnt much better. Fighting wise I really dont give a rats a$$ but i guarentee that they are not that good after seeing there demo's sorry if that bothers you?!

 

Anyway if you want to follow Fat internal teachers hoping to learn health and longevity that is totally up to you but my last words is they have no self control of there mind if they cannot lose the weight and look after themselve how the hell they gonna teach others that?

 

BJ Penn is a friggin unreal fighter and a warrior heart he would beat these guys even in there prime!

 

be well

Ape

[Mal]

[Smile]

Bruce and Gary Clyman have real power. You don't need to try- just look at the videos, you can feel it. Gary's way to express himself is another matter but he's maybe different when in a company of friends. Everyone he taught has good things to say about the training, so there it is.

[Spectrum]

Spirit Ape. Exactly. Freestyle is Free Style.

 

Something cultivated that is not based on words?

Edited February 17, 2009 by Spectrum

[soundhunter]

Is fighting ability the only proof/measure of "power" and energy?

 

I know some healthy, peaceful, wise chunky people...particularly elders, wise strong grandmothers, old wise men. Gertrude Baines...current oldest person in the world at 114 is not all skinny, she's the plumpest of these oldest people in the world types I've seen, yet somehow she's still kicking and looking pretty darn good for her years. I look to her as an example in another arena, which is all the different eating fads out there raw/vegan/caveman whatever, this woman ate the typical southern fried chicken collards and buscuits diet and there she goes, living on and on, despite the claims of various health trendsetters.

 

I've known some very fit runners and athletes who kick the bucket pretty young for their years, there's more to this equation than body fat and athleticism.

 

When I do some reading about these internal arts I encounter pics of guys that look like these big bellied men, lots of them on Chinese type sites. They don't seem to think one needs a flat belly to pull this stuff off

 

 

Edited February 17, 2009 by soundhunter

[DaoChild]

Obviously you don't respond to a boxer by "responding to one punch and doing three moves". You train that to show the body ways that it can manipulate the opponen'ts, but when you full speed sparr you shouldn't be responding that way. If you are training IMA for combat, and don't know how to respond to someone coming full-force with multiple full-power punches, you are training wrong.

[gendao]

Obviously you don't respond to a boxer by "responding to one punch and doing three moves". You train that to show the body ways that it can manipulate the opponen'ts, but when you full speed sparr you shouldn't be responding that way. If you are training IMA for combat, and don't know how to respond to someone coming full-force with multiple full-power punches, you are training wrong.

Well, that's my point.

 

The goal for increasing efficiency is minimizing the ratio of "your moves"/"his moves."

 

But I'm not sure a lot of styles explicitly focus on this, though... In fact, many seem to do the opposite to appear faster with more and faster hand motions...but which actually only makes their method structurally slower (and waste more energy).

 

Anyhow, I'm no expert - just giving my 2 fen here, lol.

[h.uriahr]

[Spirit Ape]

Mal,

 

Being Fat and unhealthy isnt good and especially in Kung Fu, fat kung fu Masters get laughed at because it shows they have not even mastered there own mind to concour food let alone there brain for cultiavtion!

 

I just think that looking in shape by training your kung fu correctly and following the proper eating and drinking is much better then being fat and saying ok guys you do 100 of these ill watch you cause im out of shape.

 

Bruce and Cly man might look impressive but how long could they last against another FIT KUNG Fu teacher equally skilled?

 

Ape

[goldisheavy]

 

What is the point of this comment? You just want to poo-poo this guy to make yourself feel good?

 

At least this guy is not stoning a woman who has "wrong" sex. At least this guy is not cutting off a hand of a little boy for stealing a quarter. There are real tossers out there in the world, but even then, wait for the tossers to make a wave, and then respond to that wave. But don't just pick someone out and say "Jee, what a tosser". That's lame. Calling other people "tossers" without a provocation says more about you than it does about your "target".

 

And if you just must criticize the guy, don't say he's a "tosser" and stop there. Instead give a well thought out critique. Explain what's wrong and why. Of course this takes some work and good intentions. If you just want to make yourself feel better by calling someone a "tosser", there is no need for writing up a critique, is there?

[Spirit Ape]

LOL Your a tosser!

 

Come on listen to this guy if he didnt want people to judge him he shouldnt have made seminars where peeps would film him and then be judged we live in modern day with internet not stoning days well you live a country that doesnt Stone anyone just love to get stoned!!!

[Spectrum]

Peanut Gallery. Words are cheap. See you on the floor.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Spectrum

[Spirit Ape]

Dance floor?

[Kim88]

Clyman has to much hot air in his belly => biliousness

[Spectrum]

Come on listen to this guy...

 

KfyAHoQAu1o

 

Ok. I am listening.... very closely. Whats he saying again? He sounds like a sump pump...

 

All you

is all it is

that sea biz

where you end up

blowing your covers

end over end over end

Over on the floor that is

It.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Spectrum

[Yuen Biao]

Regarding the issue of weight and fatness: Buddha was heavy-set and plenty of people followed him. Okay I know he wasn't a fighter, but still.

 

When I studied Taijiquan in Beijing, one of my teacher's, teacher's top student was quite a large man and carried a few extra pounds, but he was not over-weight. Personally that is no reason to suggest that he couldn't fight, dude controlled me like I was a child and used Fa Jing to launch me about 12 feet backwards. I learned quickly that day.

I found out later that this master has spent most of his youthful life at Shaolin and then graduated to Taijiquan specifically so I guess he maybe looked leaner in his earlier days.

 

As someone pointed out a fight can be over very quickly and often is most of the time. Comparing the likes of Frantzis to Penn is unfair as in reality if Frantzis is actually as good as is said he would crush Penn in seconds.

 

Frantzis I believe is very good and I have heard some good things and bad things. One thing for sure is he can move quick from the videos I have seen him in. Erle Montaigue is similar in stature and he can move pretty quick too.

 

One final point, someone mentioned that many pro-fighter's use Internal training. Personally I think this is true also as they must have the balance to their training but is there any proof in the form of interviews or video footage of say for example B.J. Penn practising Taijiquan etc?

 

*edited for typo!

Edited February 19, 2009 by Yuen Biao