Who is a Christian here and believes in JESUS CHRIST?

[gendao]

Anyone heard of the Ishayas?

 

Supposedly, it refers to a de-stressing, New Agey ascension technique (for enlightenment & better health) founded by the Apostle John with some Eastern influences...

After writing his Apocalypse,

the Apostle John founded a secret Order of Monks and ordered them to preserve his true teachings until now.

Hidden from the world until this very time, this teaching contains seven crucial understandings.

John predicted all of humanity would learn these seven,

thereby bringing in the prophesied new millennium and creating Earth's first true civilization.

 

Ishaya is a sanskrit word meaning "for Isha".

Isha = the Christ - representing a level of consciousness. Ya = for.

 

Today amongst the world,

the name Ishaya takes on three common forms:

 

The Ishaya Masters

The eternal lineage of Immortal masters,

the guardians of humanity.

The foundation of this teaching.

 

Ishayas of Consciousness

Those on earth who have ascended beyond the veil of ego and are true Teachers in consciousness

preserving the purity of this teaching, the tradition of enlightenment, for all of humanity.

Towards the end of this audio, there's a really cool clip where chirping crickets are slowed down and it sounds like chanting.

There is a force or current in creation that is constantly moving upward and expanding. The word for this energy in sanskrit is sattwa, which essentially means the aspect of natural law which is responsible for purity and creativity. This force in the Judeo Christian culture is known as the Holy Spirit. It is also sometimes called the Om.

 

As one chooses more and more intelligently for the upward current of evolution, impurities of thought, belief and habit naturally fall away, along with their corresponding stresses in the body and nervous system. As the body and nervous system become less and less stressed, the entire structure of the physical machinery rises to a state of perfection.

 

Nature pushes continually for life in accord with the upward current; when an individual reverses self-destructive tendencies and adopts the divine current of Ascending life instead, the whole structure of creation reverberates with bliss and enthusiasm. Superabundance of satisfaction and fulfillment rush through the soul; life transforms at once to full realization.

 

The practice of Ascension utilizes this natural force through attitudes of Praise, Gratitude, Love and Compassion. The result is that life immediately begins to move into alignment with the Highest Force for Good in the Universe. Ascension therefore is effortless, completely natural and universal.

[Bruce]

I do not believe the bible is erroneous. I do believe that certain things have been added and taken away over the years. The problem however is that you came onto this topic specifically looking for trouble which is why you bashed the bible. You came in here a like troll looking to stir the pot. I dont only expect agreement on every thread but considering the topic, I would think that this is for those who believe in Jesus not those who dont and are clearly posting just to start trouble. Who is a Christian here and believes in Jesus Christ? not Who is or isnt a Christian, feel free to start trouble

 

The analogy was a bit overboard. How about Who here loves the East Coast? and I post "The East Coast is a poorly governed part of the US and was only thrown together for political reasons. It's the same thing, obviously I'm looking for a fight if I post that.

 

Textbook trolling.

 

Let me clarify once again. I dont take the Bible as the Erroneous Word of God. I do believe in Jesus although my view of Him is a bit different than most. I'm not aggrevated that you think the Bible is hogwash. I'm aggrevated because you come in here saying that just for shits and giggles. You're an idiot. An insulting, childish idiot. There are ways of doing things and I think you just did it that way to start some shit.

Wow. That's quite a violent reaction. I don't believe anyone ever called you names or insulted you. The man just stated his opinion about the Bible. Had this been a Christian forum, I would agree that it was trolling, but it's not. Why such a reaction?

[宁]

Indeed not:

 

Source: http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/217.realfaceofjesus.html

 

 

Thanx for that, looks ALOT better than the American-Blue-Eyed-Tall-And-Handsome Jesus

[altiora]

There is a book called 'Christ the Eternal Tao" by a Orthodox priest who was a follower of Seraphim Rose that attempted to explore the thesis that Christ was the incarnation of the Tao. Haven't read it myself but it has received very good reviews. I have to say that of my many years of reading and research, it is philosophical Taoism that comes closest to Orthodox Christianity out of all the Eastern religions.

 

Now there are several things that have aroused by concern about this topic.

 

1. I'm just a little fed up by people who are completely and utterly ignorant of Christianity spouting their groundless opinions. It always amazes me that these same people seem to lecture others on showing respect to Eastern and alternative spirtualities, yet don't think they themselves owe any such respect to Christianity. I may be an Orthodox Christian, and I may think that salvation is only through Christ, but I consider showing disrespect or rubbishing other ancient, and more thought out modern, traditions is totally wrong. I am completely comfortable with informed, reasoned debate.

 

2. Let us be very clear that most sects cavorting around as "Christians" have no right to do so: they are either "everything is negotiable, there is no Truth, everything is relative; and therefore the Creeds are a load of nonsense" (to be found increasingly in the mainstream Protestant denominations (a la "Bishop" Spong) and the Bible idolaters (ie the fundamentalists) who think that they understand the Bible, that they have some completely self-sufficient capacity to interpret the Bible and thus don't need to consider tradition and the writings of the Holy Mothers and Fathers.

 

Contrary to what a lot of people think, the Christian church (from the very earliest days, e.g Origen) did not interpret the Bible literally -- for instance, none but ignoramouses accepted that God created the universe in 7 human days or that there really was a physical Garden of Eden. These were considered metaphors by which to impart spiritual truths using language and concepts that were man-made. In the Orthodox Church, St Theophan the Recluse stated that the simple should read the Lives of the Saints; the more intelligent should read the writings of the Holy Fathers and Mothers; while only the "perfect" should read the Bible. By "perfect" St Theophan meant someone who had advanced spiritual and intellectual understanding so that they could accurately contemplate the meaning of the Bible, because it is not to be obtained by a literal interpretation.

 

3. I was once under the impression that us Westerners are somehow spiritual barbarians compared to the holy evolved Easterners. Then I discovered that Christianity, prior to the Church of Rome and the Reformation pretty much destroying it all, was in every way just as rich in wisdom as Taoism and Buddhism People should read someone like Meister Eckhart (but not Suzuki's very poor book on him), the writings in the Philokalia (there's an excellent introduction to them by Anthony Coniaris) and the writings of the Desert Fathers.

 

These writings emphasise that the true Christianity is about theosis/ deification by which we seek to completely change our habitual ways of living by discovering what is True and natural and discarding the passions and automatic responses that fetter us. The true Christianity is about humans becoming "partakers in the Divine Nature" by becoming "gods" in the image of "God". The early Christians were quite emphatic that Christianity is a Path of Liberation that requires many many years of hard work. I do recommend the novel "Way of the Pilgrim" as an easy and enjoyable introduction to all this.

 

4. I'm not going to join this ridiculous and groundless speculation that Christ was taught by Buddhists high in some secluded monastery in Tibet etc. Or that it was clear that the Christians "cribbed" it from the Eastern religions etc. Why can't we Westerners accept the good parts of our Christian heritage, instead of seeking to "validate" Christianity (or perhaps they're trying to validate Eastern spirituality) by trying to claim that Christ was Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist avatar/Bodhisattva/sage/mage etc. And we need also to accept that the East doesn't have a monopoly on "wisdom" -- there are many many profound Western writers and teachers (past and present) if you have an open mind.

 

I am happy to read and contemplate the gems of wisdom from both the West and East -- but due to ancestral and cultural ties my feet are firmly on the Western side of the fence.

[Hugo_M]

PS. My church say Jesus Christ looks like:

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/110/3#3

Edited February 19, 2009 by HugoOlivaresMila

[altiora]

Anyone heard of the Ishayas?

 

Supposedly, it refers to a de-stressing, New Agey ascension technique (for enlightenment & better health) founded by the Apostle John with some Eastern influences...Towards the end of this audio, there's a really cool clip where chirping crickets are slowed down and it sounds like chanting.

 

 

When anyone says that they have "secret" teachings that have "never before been released to the public", I hide my credit card and reach for my gun

[CarsonZi]

I am happy to read and contemplate the gems of wisdom from both the West and East -- but due to ancestral and cultural ties my feet are firmly on the Western side of the fence.

 

Hi altiora,

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said....but I don't understand your need to seperate into "West" and "East"....Why not take what works from any and every tradition and move on? Seperating things into Western philosophies/ideas/religions and Eastern philosophies/ideas/religions creates conflict that doesn't need to be there....why not just accept that there are many similarities among all of these different spiritual "sects" and focus on those instead or finding all the little differences and spouting that we know something others don't because of these. We are all one in the end, all that seperates us is our beliefs.

 

Love,

Carson

 

P.S. Isn't Nazareth pretty much in the East anyways?

[altiora]

Hi altiora,

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said....but I don't understand your need to seperate into "West" and "East"....Why not take what works from any and every tradition and move on? Seperating things into Western philosophies/ideas/religions and Eastern philosophies/ideas/religions creates conflict that doesn't need to be there....why not just accept that there are many similarities among all of these different spiritual "sects" and focus on those instead or finding all the little differences and spouting that we know something others don't because of these. We are all one in the end, all that seperates us is our beliefs.

 

Love,

Carson

 

P.S. Isn't Nazareth pretty much in the East anyways?

 

 

Yes I suppose that last sentence sounded a little contradictory to what I had said earlier: I simply meant that while I'm happy to read from East and West, I have come to understand that my cultural ties mean that I'm not always going to be able to fully understand the Eastern teachings. That reflects linguistic and cultural differences which mean I can't simply go to the library and (eg) take out the Daoist Canon and read it cover to cover. I'm reliant on what other people tell me what the Daoist Canon says. By contrast, I'm able to read and understand (to a greater or lesser extent) the western teachings.

[CarsonZi]

Yes I suppose that last sentence sounded a little contradictory to what I had said earlier: I simply meant that while I'm happy to read from East and West, I have come to understand that my cultural ties mean that I'm not always going to be able to fully understand the Eastern teachings. That reflects linguistic and cultural differences which mean I can't simply go to the library and (eg) take out the Daoist Canon and read it cover to cover. I'm reliant on what other people tell me what the Daoist Canon says. By contrast, I'm able to read and understand (to a greater or lesser extent) the western teachings.

 

You read Hebrew? Latin?

 

[altiora]

You read Hebrew? Latin?

 

 

NT Greek actually.

[Bruce]

Hi altiora,

You mentioned that the orthodox church doesn't take such literal interpretations. How is the resurrection viewed in the orthodox church? I'm genuinely interested.

Peace

[dwai]

Anyone heard of the Ishayas?

 

Supposedly, it refers to a de-stressing, New Agey ascension technique (for enlightenment & better health) founded by the Apostle John with some Eastern influences...Towards the end of this audio, there's a really cool clip where chirping crickets are slowed down and it sounds like chanting.

 

Isha does not mean Christ in Sanskrit. Isha means Master or Lord.

For instance, A God is referred to as "Jagadish" (etymology -- Jagat (World) and Isha (Lord) -- meaning Lord of the World).

 

I read this extrapolation first in a book titled "Jesus was Born in India" first and how there were references to "Isha" (thus Ishamasi or Jesus the Messiah). This is a huge error of translation (can be considered fraudulent at an extreme).

[altiora]

[Bruce]

Thank you very much. Beautifully stated, may I add!

 

I would love to look into the orthodox teaching more. See, I'm one of those who was raised in a very fundamentalist and literally interpreting church. From an early age I began to see the hypocracy. Not many were walking the talk if you know what I mean.

 

I've long felt that the Bible couldn't always be taken literally, but it's hard to find, what seem to me, sound resources for studying this. I've read some books by scholars, but well, they're scholars. I think all they did was reinforce my disbelief.

 

Just to be fair, I keep bumping up against a lot of the same in Buddhism. A lot of myth and symbolism starts to crop up in Mahayana and then jumps to an even higher plane in the Vajrayana. Things get as unbelievable as what a lot of us have criticized in Christianity. I accepted it all on faith for awhile, until I realized that I was being the very fundamentalist that I despised in Christianity. Man did that ever make me feel like a hypocrite! I began to ask what happened to the man Shakyamuni. He suddenly seems to be elevated to the Christian idea of Jesus. That particularly seemed the case in the Lotus Sutra.

 

Anyway, I realize that some has to be taken as symbolism. There are some things in Christianity, though, that I feel I would have to accept on faith, that I have a difficult time with. I'm still interested enough to question and study, but I'm totally turned off by evangelicals. Man if you want me to shut down just get in my face and tell me I'm doing some devil worship by meditating and if I don't believe all this stuff in the Bible I'm going to hell. Not sure why they think direct confrontation is a good sales technique.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I'll do some digging around on orthodox doctrine and see what I can find.

Cheers,

Bruce

[h.uriahr]

Wow. That's quite a violent reaction. I don't believe anyone ever called you names or insulted you. The man just stated his opinion about the Bible. Had this been a Christian forum, I would agree that it was trolling, but it's not. Why such a reaction?

 

The reaction is because I dont like Wayfarer. It is most certainly trolling. This could be an Anti Jesus Bible Bashing Forum and it would still be trolling because the topic isnt about bible bashing. The topic is asking for people who believe in Jesus, not who thinks the bible is bullshit.

 

mmmm who ever said this: it is better if people say:

 

I belive you are a idiot! Instead of saying: You are a idiot!

 

We are free to belive in what ever we want, so we are free to say our belive: like for example: I belive you are a idiot!

But saying just: You are a idiot is not the same:

 

Remember what the Bible say:

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=9;

 

God Bless

 

 

After having a very bried interaction with Wayfarer I can rightly conclude that he is in fact an idiot. If he cant honestly see anything wrong with saying what he did about the bible then he is senseless, making him an idiot. Look it up. This is pretty much pointless.

[Aetherous]

h.uriahr,

 

[altiora]

Thank you very much. Beautifully stated, may I add!

 

I would love to look into the orthodox teaching more. See, I'm one of those who was raised in a very fundamentalist and literally interpreting church. From an early age I began to see the hypocracy. Not many were walking the talk if you know what I mean.

 

I've long felt that the Bible couldn't always be taken literally, but it's hard to find, what seem to me, sound resources for studying this. I've read some books by scholars, but well, they're scholars. I think all they did was reinforce my disbelief.

 

Just to be fair, I keep bumping up against a lot of the same in Buddhism. A lot of myth and symbolism starts to crop up in Mahayana and then jumps to an even higher plane in the Vajrayana. Things get as unbelievable as what a lot of us have criticized in Christianity. I accepted it all on faith for awhile, until I realized that I was being the very fundamentalist that I despised in Christianity. Man did that ever make me feel like a hypocrite! I began to ask what happened to the man Shakyamuni. He suddenly seems to be elevated to the Christian idea of Jesus. That particularly seemed the case in the Lotus Sutra.

 

Anyway, I realize that some has to be taken as symbolism. There are some things in Christianity, though, that I feel I would have to accept on faith, that I have a difficult time with. I'm still interested enough to question and study, but I'm totally turned off by evangelicals. Man if you want me to shut down just get in my face and tell me I'm doing some devil worship by meditating and if I don't believe all this stuff in the Bible I'm going to hell. Not sure why they think direct confrontation is a good sales technique.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I'll do some digging around on orthodox doctrine and see what I can find.

Cheers,

Bruce

 

 

You're welcome. But I'm nothing but a tongue-tied novice when it comes to some Orthodox theologians and the sheer beauty of their vision. Be wary that Orthodoxy has its own Fundies: the sort that believe that anything written after the 4 th century AD is suspect and degraded, if not Satanic.

 

The fundametalist menatlity is a blight to all religions -- look at what death and carnage so called vegetarian "Hindus" and "Buddhists" extremists in Indian and Sri Lanka cause to the Muslim and Christian minorities.

 

Be wary also that Orthodoxy has been snuffed out of the Western culture -- it's only now establishing itself here with the increasing numbers of new converts and the established communities integrating into their countries. A lot of Orthodoxy reflects the particular country to which it is originally affiliated e.g. Russia, Greece etc so often reflects the culture with all its baggage. This can be a culture shock to westerners and you can find yourself hearing some rather interesting "views" about the world. But as I always say, you accept my warts and I'll accept yours.

 

I'd recommend an Englishman Kallistos Ware's book "The Orthodox Way" and "Philokalia: the Bible of Orthodox Spirituality" by Anthony Coniaris as the best introductions around. They discuss Orthodoxy in a way approachable, but still challenging, to westerners.

 

You're right: ultimately it is about faith. At one stage we reach the limits of our rational mind and must make a leap of faith. I've always been amazed at some western Buddhist adherents will say "how ridiculous" Christianity is with its Resurrection, Virgin Birth etc, yet see no problem accepting every word of an equally "colourful" Buddhist scripture as absolute and literal truth. At the end of the day it's all faith. If that's what you want to believe that's fine. I don't necessarily agree but I won't denigrate you for it.

 

One thing I've never got clear about Buddhism is whether Lord Buddha saw a role for a creator Deity in the form that the Judaeo-Christian would recognise. I've received two answers when I've asked teachers of this tradition: the first, Buddha didn't say one way or another, as it wasn't important to his teachings and, further, what point is there concerning oneself with such things when you're not happy here and now; and second, no he didn't, Mind is everything.

 

Now the Japanese Pure Land school then saw an apparent flaw: if the whole purpose is to escape the fetters of ego, isn't attempting to attain enlightnment inherently contradictory with this. And if so, don't we then require a Higher Power to overcome the strictures of the Self-Power. As someone pointed out, the Japanese Pure Land school came extraordinary close to Martin Luther's teachings of Justification by Faith alone.

 

Researched this matter myself but gave up because there was so little material out there -- so as you can see these musings are very "beginner's mind" stuff.

[Creation]

altiora,

Thanks for bringing the Orthodox perspective into the discussion. The more I hear, the more I am interested in the Orthodox Church. You also bring up some great interfaith issues. There are so many double standards and hidden assumptions and so much cultural baggage woven into religious thinking and discoursing. As someone with a foot (toe?) in several religions right now, I am becoming aware of how little people realize this.

 

Bruce,

Thomas Merton=required reading for the modern Christ follower. Really great stuff.

 

The pivotal questions that I am pondering right now about Christianity: In what way was Yeshua of Nazerath more than an ordinary man and what was the meaning of his death? Discerning the truth about these issues is certainly way over my head at this point...

Edited February 20, 2009 by Creation

[xenolith]

...ultimately it is about faith.

C'ept for those whose experience has formed their beliefs.

[h.uriahr]

h.uriahr,

 

 

I know, I know. I've been getting zero sleep due to a teething child and been drinking way too much coffee and have been recently layed off so I'll admit it....WAY WAY OVERBOARD and I'm sorry Wayfarer for calling you an idiot a few too many times...

[altiora]

C'ept for those whose experience has formed their beliefs.

 

Would think that is based on the faith that one's experiences justify that belief, or faith that one has the capabilities to reach valid beliefs on account of those experiences

 

No I'm not toying with you, well not without reason!

 

A philosopher (can't remember his name) pointed out that modern humans are prone to think that everything they do is based on empirical observation/proof and that we don't truly realise how "faith" (in the sense of an expectation or hope that isn't necessarily provable at that point of time on which we rely on it) governs our lives.

[bukejian]

Being a christian myself, I debated most of the day if I wanted to comment on this subject. So I 'll only say one thing on this subject. If ever you come to a point in your life, when your daoist and or oriental wisdom don't work for you. Try Praying to Jesus Christ.

 

Bu

Edited February 20, 2009 by bukejian

[Taiji Bum]

Two things happen like clockwork at the Tao Bums. A Chinese dude will appear every few months trying to get converts to his version of nutty Taoism and every few months a thread will be started under the false pretense of asking a serious question about Christianity but in reality its just a front to insult and disparage it.

 

Dont believe me? Just wait.....

[xenolith]

Would think that is based on the faith that one's experiences justify that belief...

Understand, what you think does not all persons' experience contain.

 

A philosopher (can't remember his name) pointed out that modern humans are prone to think that everything they do is based on empirical observation/proof and that we don't truly realise how "faith" (in the sense of an expectation or hope that isn't necessarily provable at that point of time on which we rely on it) governs our lives.

Syllogistic assertion.

[altiora]