Who is a Christian here and believes in JESUS CHRIST?

[xenolith]

I apologize somewhat...trying to make people THINK...for throwing the bait of my second comment.

 

Your assertion that the philosopher's statement regarding "modern humans" is applicable to INDIVIDUAL humans ("modern" or otherwise) is a syllogistic mistake of reasoning. My first comment should have made that clear.

 

But you're OK in my book altiora.

 

Love.

 

xeno

Edited February 20, 2009 by xenolith

[NeutralWire]

I'd like to thank Altiora as well for bringing in the Orthodox picture.

 

There are some interesting stories floating around about what the secluded Christian monks and nuns are capable of, Tom Kenyon has told some so maybe Yoda knows more. Christianity is a closed book to me personally at the moment.

 

When you said:

 

Now that does not mean we need to have ourselves nailed to a Cross,

 

... there are some who would disagree:

 

 

They take these things seriously in the Phillipines! Last Easter 25 people did it, we'll see how many next month. Yes actual nails. Mind you, it's nothing that shamans haven't been doing for thousands of years.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[Stigweard]

Interestingly I come into this conversation literally straight after spending two incredible days with the leaders of all the major faiths and religions throughout the Asia Pacific region. One of the central topics of discussion was: "Explore and affirm common values, virtues and principles among diverse faiths and spirituality traditions."

 

So I think it is fantastic to come home and see such a 'lively' discussion taking place here.

 

Let us continue perhaps with the spirit of recognition in the unity that exists between us.

[Bruce]

You're welcome. But I'm nothing but a tongue-tied novice when it comes to some Orthodox theologians and the sheer beauty of their vision. Be wary that Orthodoxy has its own Fundies: the sort that believe that anything written after the 4 th century AD is suspect and degraded, if not Satanic.

 

The fundametalist menatlity is a blight to all religions -- look at what death and carnage so called vegetarian "Hindus" and "Buddhists" extremists in Indian and Sri Lanka cause to the Muslim and Christian minorities.

 

Be wary also that Orthodoxy has been snuffed out of the Western culture -- it's only now establishing itself here with the increasing numbers of new converts and the established communities integrating into their countries. A lot of Orthodoxy reflects the particular country to which it is originally affiliated e.g. Russia, Greece etc so often reflects the culture with all its baggage. This can be a culture shock to westerners and you can find yourself hearing some rather interesting "views" about the world. But as I always say, you accept my warts and I'll accept yours.

 

I'd recommend an Englishman Kallistos Ware's book "The Orthodox Way" and "Philokalia: the Bible of Orthodox Spirituality" by Anthony Coniaris as the best introductions around. They discuss Orthodoxy in a way approachable, but still challenging, to westerners.

 

You're right: ultimately it is about faith. At one stage we reach the limits of our rational mind and must make a leap of faith. I've always been amazed at some western Buddhist adherents will say "how ridiculous" Christianity is with its Resurrection, Virgin Birth etc, yet see no problem accepting every word of an equally "colourful" Buddhist scripture as absolute and literal truth. At the end of the day it's all faith. If that's what you want to believe that's fine. I don't necessarily agree but I won't denigrate you for it.

 

One thing I've never got clear about Buddhism is whether Lord Buddha saw a role for a creator Deity in the form that the Judaeo-Christian would recognise. I've received two answers when I've asked teachers of this tradition: the first, Buddha didn't say one way or another, as it wasn't important to his teachings and, further, what point is there concerning oneself with such things when you're not happy here and now; and second, no he didn't, Mind is everything.

 

Now the Japanese Pure Land school then saw an apparent flaw: if the whole purpose is to escape the fetters of ego, isn't attempting to attain enlightnment inherently contradictory with this. And if so, don't we then require a Higher Power to overcome the strictures of the Self-Power. As someone pointed out, the Japanese Pure Land school came extraordinary close to Martin Luther's teachings of Justification by Faith alone.

 

Researched this matter myself but gave up because there was so little material out there -- so as you can see these musings are very "beginner's mind" stuff.

 

Thank you again,

I'll check out the books you recommend. I have to agree with you on all counts. As much as some Buddhists (me included at times) like to say that faith isn't involved, it is if one is honest. How can it not be? At the very least one is accepting on faith that Buddha was who and what scripture says he was. After all, it was all written down after he was gone, and some of it long after. It's then been interpreted and argued over the centuries by various sects. As for the creation thing, you'll probably get a different answer depending on who you ask in Buddhism, but to my understanding none of the answers would correspond with the Judeo/Christian view.

 

I've been digging around on OrtodoxWiki this morning as a start. It's interesting reading. My mind is open. I know nothing about anything.

 

All the best with respect,

Bruce

Edited February 20, 2009 by Bruce

[ZenStatic]

Two things happen like clockwork at the Tao Bums. A Chinese dude will appear every few months trying to get converts to his version of nutty Taoism and every few months a thread will be started under the false pretense of asking a serious question about Christianity but in reality its just a front to insult and disparage it.

 

Dont believe me? Just wait.....

 

You left off the 3rd part. That the thread about Christianity will be full of people who profess to be Christian, bu only the parts they like and throw the rest out. We can all use those steadfast examples of "faith" and "belief".

Edited February 20, 2009 by lostmonk

[Bruce]

I just wanted to thank Altiora again for entering this discussion. I've been continuing my reading of orthodox doctrine, and while I've not even scratched the surface, Christianity is becoming believable to me for the first time in my life. I really look forward to continued study from the orthodox doctrine (which I'm going to go back to now).

 

Even as a practicing Buddhist, I've never totally lost my belief in God. I just wasn't able to accept the idea of God I had been raised with. What I've been reading, however, is significantly much more in line with what I've always felt, deep within, to be true.

 

So, I will continue to study and I will continue to live by the precepts as best I can. I don't believe them to be any different than what Jesus would've wanted us to do anyway. I will also continue to sit in zazen as my practice, along with prayer. Once, some years ago when confronted with one of those dark nights of the soul, I consulted with a Zen monk. He told me to ask my zazen. I shall do the same now.

 

Peace,

Bruce

Edited February 20, 2009 by Bruce

[Wayfarer64]

I have read the King James version cover to cover and a few other interpretations side by side... If Christians could ever see eye to eye it would be a niceity for the rest of us...

 

The differences between Fundamentalists, Strict Catholics and Lutherans is astounding. That I can't see much to take to heart from any given interpretation shouldn't bother any true believers...

 

That I doubt there was an actual Lao Tzu is a matter some Taoist could fault me for as well...

 

I do not think religion is useful. I do believe that open minded interest in every form of philosophy has a use...

 

Name calling on a forum is just silly-

[h.uriahr]

I have read the King James version cover to cover and a few other interpretations side by side... If Christians could ever see eye to eye it would be a niceity for the rest of us...

 

The differences between Fundamentalists, Strict Catholics and Lutherans is astounding. That I can't see much to take to heart from any given interpretation shouldn't bother any true believers...

 

That I doubt there was an actual Lao Tzu is a matter some Taoist could fault me for as well...

 

I do not think religion is useful. I do believe that open minded interest in every form of philosophy has a use...

 

Name calling on a forum is just silly-

 

Isnt there a famous quote somewhere about religion being a crutch?

 

Not sure if you saw my apology or not but it's on page 4. I was an ass.

[Wayfarer64]

Isnt there a famous quote somewhere about religion being a crutch?

 

Not sure if you saw my apology or not but it's on page 4. I was an ass.

 

 

I've been bizzy elsewhere, so this whole rancorous scene went by me unawares...

 

I expect some rancor when discussing both religion & politics. Your emotions only hurt you and did not disturb me at all. I take this site seriously. I am not even sure what "trolling" is... That I try to keep my entries light-hearted may be offensive to some - that I take some of what I add here too seriously myself may also be problematic. But The discourse is important to all who seek open minded answers to deep and troublesome questions...

 

I in fact have spent many hours in prayer to our Christian Lord and do not disparage any enlightened teachings of love and brotherhood. I find it remarkable that anyone would attack anyone else in the name of Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism or Islam - (I have also read the Koran all the Sutras I could find and tracts of Zoroastrian, Shinto, Gnostic, Animist and Wiccan belief systems...) Its funny how they all profess neighborly love and open-hearted good will... yet foment so much duress and trouble through the ages...

 

Its just a bitch that we each can't see the superiority and greater value of those thoughts that do not agree with our own at the moment!

[Yoda]

I'm not a scholar, but it sounds like the Christian church was fighting a two front war against the pagans and the heretics who both had lots of charismatics going on so they needed to downplay the weirdness factor and play up the follow-the-rules thing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Saints sort of alludes to this tension.

[altiora]

I just wanted to thank Altiora again for entering this discussion. I've been continuing my reading of orthodox doctrine, and while I've not even scratched the surface, Christianity is becoming believable to me for the first time in my life. I really look forward to continued study from the orthodox doctrine (which I'm going to go back to now).

 

Even as a practicing Buddhist, I've never totally lost my belief in God. I just wasn't able to accept the idea of God I had been raised with. What I've been reading, however, is significantly much more in line with what I've always felt, deep within, to be true.

 

So, I will continue to study and I will continue to live by the precepts as best I can. I don't believe them to be any different than what Jesus would've wanted us to do anyway. I will also continue to sit in zazen as my practice, along with prayer. Once, some years ago when confronted with one of those dark nights of the soul, I consulted with a Zen monk. He told me to ask my zazen. I shall do the same now.

 

Peace,

Bruce

 

 

Again you're welcome.

 

Please be wary there is a lot in Orthodox Christianity that is a "slap in the face" to the modern liberal mentality of "anything goes". It is very strict about what we must do in our lives, the moral codes we must adhere to.

 

Of course that doesn't mean that it requires you to be a perfect saint, but that you be aware of your failings (dare I use the word 'sins') and that you be humble and try your hardest to rectify them. For me my passage to the Orthodox Church was no easy ride. There were many things it asked of me that really caused much soul searching, and still do and where I still fall short of what is required. But I'm forced to acknowledge that and actively try to change things. But that's OK: Orthodoxy won't condemn you if you do have that intention to change and do sincerely try. We are all fall short of the idea (whether you're an Orthodox Archbishop or a layperson) and therefore we must be compassionate and help and support each other ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone").

 

Orthodoxy is no different in the moral demands it places on its adherents than many Buddhists/Hindu/Taoist sects, which have similarly very high standards of moral conduct. Often I've found westerners seem to say they don't like the moral control of Christianity; and seem to think Buddhism is a nice easy spirituality that allows you to do what you want but save your soul with a bit of meditation. For instance, a friend was reading "The Dzogchen Primer" and was saying how annoyed that it had nothing "practical" but spent pages upon pages about morality, karma etc etc. Yet from what I've read, the Buddhist masters of Tibet wouldn't let a student anywhere near advanced teachings unless he or she had completely reformed his or her moral being. this is because they understand that moral failings are a distraction that prevent students from seeing the truth.

 

I fear I've said too much, so will give you good people a break. But a final recommendation would be "Art of Prayer: an orthodox anthology" - this has some excellent writings of the Orthodox meditative-prayer.

[Hugo_M]

(I have also read the Koran all the Sutras I could find and tracts of Zoroastrian, Shinto, Gnostic, Animist and Wiccan belief systems...)

 

My friend it seems you don't have read: The Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith? There is a lot about Jesus Christ way and path and is very much differnet book than what we know today as the Bible! The Bible is not what is was original!

 

 

PS. i hope you read the book of Mormon then we can start a thread about the book if you want, i would be in that thread all the time, because is about my most favorite book

 

Regards

 

Jesus Christ live is my testimony i know thanks to the Holy Spirit

[Bruce]

I would appreciate it if someone could help me out of some possible confusion here. I've been doing some more reading on Christianity. While the Orthodox doctrine, at first, seemed easier for me to accept, in the end I am bumping up against the same walls as I always have.

 

There are several of these walls, but this one is probably the biggest (from the King James Version).

 

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Here's how I take this: the only way to "know" God is through Jesus. We can debate the word "know", but I'm also led to believe by some Christian writers that man can never directly "know" God. So I get from this that in Christianity, Jesus is the required step to God, and this is because Jesus is the son of God without who's grace God would be unreachable by man.

 

Here's the wall I hit. First one has to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and the only evidence of this is that it says so in the Bible, infered via prophesy and maybe directly stated by apostles. Did Jesus ever directly say he was the son of God? I'm asking because I don't know. I've heard yes and no.

 

So, the only way to God is via Jesus and the only way to Jesus is via baptism and the only way to baptism is via the church which controls the doctrine, and defines God for us humans who can't possible "know" God without them.

 

Is this the correct Christian view?

 

I have a lot more questions, but this is my biggest stumbling block; and try as I may to believe, because Christianity is the religion of my culture, I just can't get past these things. I hope this question doesn't generate a lot of angry reactions from the Christians out there. I'm trying to understand your views.

 

Peace,

Bruce

[h.uriahr]

I would appreciate it if someone could help me out of some possible confusion here. I've been doing some more reading on Christianity. While the Orthodox doctrine, at first, seemed easier for me to accept, in the end I am bumping up against the same walls as I always have.

 

There are several of these walls, but this one is probably the biggest (from the King James Version).

 

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Here's how I take this: the only way to "know" God is through Jesus. We can debate the word "know", but I'm also led to believe by some Christian writers that man can never directly "know" God. So I get from this that in Christianity, Jesus is the required step to God, and this is because Jesus is the son of God without who's grace God would be unreachable by man.

 

Here's the wall I hit. First one has to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and the only evidence of this is that it says so in the Bible, infered via prophesy and maybe directly stated by apostles. Did Jesus ever directly say he was the son of God? I'm asking because I don't know. I've heard yes and no.

 

So, the only way to God is via Jesus and the only way to Jesus is via baptism and the only way to baptism is via the church which controls the doctrine, and defines God for us humans who can't possible "know" God without them.

 

Is this the correct Christian view?

 

I have a lot more questions, but this is my biggest stumbling block; and try as I may to believe, because Christianity is the religion of my culture, I just can't get past these things. I hope this question doesn't generate a lot of angry reactions from the Christians out there. I'm trying to understand your views.

 

Peace,

Bruce

bible-truths.com is a great website that can answer alot of questions.

[Aetherous]

Here's how I take this: the only way to "know" God is through Jesus.

 

What about the Old Testament dudes like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, Enoch, etc?

[Bruce]

What about the Old Testament dudes like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, Enoch, etc?

 

Yeah, I wonder that myself. I also wonder why only these interactions that take place in secret. For instance, why did Jesus only reveal himself to a few believers after the resurrection? Why not to those who killed him? Now that would've caused some belief as to who he was, I would think. Instead, we're left with the words of only a few who happened to witness the events. Leaves one scratching their head asking, why.

[Hugo_M]

...........

 

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Here's how I take this: the only way to "know" God is through Jesus. First one has to believe that Jesus is the son of God...........

So, the only way to God is via Jesus and the only way to Jesus is via baptism and the only way to baptism is via the church which controls the doctrine, and defines God for us humans who can't possible "know" God without them.

 

Is this the correct Christian view?

 

Bruce

 

Hello Bruce

 

Jesus Christ is also a God just like the Holy Spirit! That is why the are call: Godhead: Jesus Christ, Elohim the Father and the Holy Spirit!!!

 

God Elohim is the Father of all the humans, so he is your and my Father also!

 

You can know God just reading the Bible and pray to know him + you have a God "stuff" inside you, in your soul!

 

Regards

!

Edited February 21, 2009 by HugoOlivaresMila

[Bruce]

Cheers Hugo,

Yes, it's that "God stuff in the soul" that I'm interested in! I've not been a practicing Christian since I was a kid, and once I was old enough to give it some real thought, I only went to church because my parents made me. Like I said earlier, I grew up in a very fundamentalist church. The older my parents got the more fundamentalist, to the extreme, they became and the more turned off by it all I got.

 

So now I'm 52 and have been a practicing Buddhist for probably longer than I was a practicing Christian. My idea of God is more that of the idea of Buddha nature: pure wisdom and compassion, all pervading, unborn and undying, in and of everything; which I believe is pretty consistent with the Vedic idea of God/Brahman, and from what I've recently read, pretty consistent with the Orthodox Christian idea of God. Of course none of these ideas are exactly the same, but similar enough that one might draw comparisons. Being all pervading then, God resides in us and is accessable by us, even to be "known" directly if pure enough of mind (that being the catch for most of us). All of this is very different from the fundamentalist's hellfire and brimstone judging God.

 

This probably isn't the thread to have this discussion, and I wouldn't even know what sort of thread/subject to start it under. Maybe it isn't even appropriate for this forum.

 

Do you see where my mental blocks with this may be? So much seems shrouded in secrecy in the Bible, leaving way to much to man to sort out through religion, through the church, setting doctrine that we're all supposed to sign up to. That's why I'm drawn to practices that seek God in one's self through prayer, contemplation, and meditation where teachers lead rather than preach. Does that make sense?

 

I'm not putting down believers of Christ. I have respect for the faithful, no matter the religion or philosophy. It's such a personal thing. It was stated by someone in this thread that the Christians are always put down. Well, this is a Taoist forum, open to all of course but certainly with Eastern philosophical leanings. Outside of places like this, however, I feel it's the other way around as our western society is primarily Christian. I'm only looking for commonality where it lies, and hoping we all have respect for one another.

 

Peace,

Bruce

[Hugo_M]

Cheers Hugo,

Like I said earlier, I grew up in a very fundamentalist church. The older my parents got the more fundamentalist, to the extreme, they became and the more turned off by it all I got.

Peace,

Bruce

 

Hones the real Christians are the ones that have good heart! to example i don't know if the girl that sing on the video of my signature is christian, but she have the Christian Heart that goes beyond any church,in fact the real church is your soul!

 

Your parents are on the wrong path is what i belive sorry to say but follow your way, nobody can say to you wich religion you should follow!

[doc benway]

I recently had an interesting encounter with the two faces of Christianity.

 

I never really saw much truth in the scriptures of Jesus when left to my own devices. I was not raised in a Christian tradition and only superficially studied any of the canon. Then I was turned on to Anthony DeMello. DeMello was a Jesuit whose work showed me how those very scriptures reflected the same profound truths that are at the basis of all the major religious traditions (Buddhism, Daoism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Islam, and so on...). He used the Jesuit tradition (and was probably also strongly influenced by his own Indian/Hindu culture and background) to uncover and transmit the core of Jesus' teachings (in my ignorant opinion) in a simple and elegant way. It gave me a new respect and admiration for the Christian traditions and those that achieve real understanding through them.

 

Subsequently, I learned that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (currently known as Pope Benedict XVI), while serving as spokesman for the Congregation for the Doctine of the Faith, condemned DeMello's beautiful and profound teachings with the following warning: "With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm." Furthermore, he banned all of DeMello's writings and put them out of print as the copyrights were under the control of the Church. And yet, those positions "incompatible with the Catholic faith" seem to me to be the very core of the scriptures. Fortunately, enough of a public outcry developed that the works are again actively published and readily available.

 

It reminded me of the real motivation behind those involved in institutionalized religion - power. It also reminded me of one of my favorite Osho sayings - something like: a person's personal/internal search for understanding and truth is the only real religion, everything else is politics.

[Hugo_M]

Cheers Hugo,

..........God resides in us and is accessable by us, even to be "known" directly if pure enough of mind (that being the catch for most of us). All of this is very different from the fundamentalist's hellfire and brimstone judging God.

 

Peace,

Bruce

 

Is true God is inside us:

 

before we came to earth, the intelligence that our spirit hade are whitout begining and end, this intelligence God have NOT create or destroy God can not create or destroy, God can only organize whit more "light" and God can disorganize after we die if He wants!

 

God power in us is sometimes call the: conscience.

 

Hell is not a fire whitout end, hell is just a moment some going to have before going to that place that is best for them!

 

 

 

This probably isn't the thread to have this discussion, and I wouldn't even know what sort of thread/subject to start it under. Maybe it isn't even appropriate for this forum.

Peace,

Bruce

 

I am interesting on that thread, maybe we can call it Christian God

 

 

Cheers Hugo,

 

 

Do you see where my mental blocks with this may be? respect for one another.

 

Peace,

Bruce

 

Sorry there is not any mental blocks on you, these are just blocks made by other people, maybe they are on the aura but ONE thing is CLEAR they are not in your SOUL as i understand, so don't worry i am your friend and help you in what ever i can, to give the life to a friend is the best gift you can give

Edited February 21, 2009 by HugoOlivaresMila

[Hugo_M]

That's why I'm drawn to practices that seek God in one's self through prayer, contemplation, and meditation where teachers lead rather than preach. Does that make sense?

 

Peace,

Bruce

 

sounds good

 

you can also just follow Jesus Christ word:

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=9;

 

if you can do this then you are following all the commandments of God!

[kevin]

Anyone a Christian here and If you are how do you see Tao against your Faith?

 

Ape

I am not a Christian, and I have a hard time seeing how present-day, mainstream Christianity is anything like what Jesus taught. However, I think Jesus was a phenomenal mystic and healer, full of wisdom. Awesome, in my eyes, is also that he forcefully drove out the money-changers from a temple.

 

He had the full package: in touch with mundane reality yet possessed of a tremendous power, compassion, and wisdom. I respect him for those things.

[Hugo_M]

and hoping we all have respect for one another.

Bruce

 

you had show very good respect to me and i show respect to you, is so great

[Bruce]

Thanks again Hugo! I appreciate it.

 

Xuesheng - I hear ya mate. There's so much more I would like to say, in agreement, but it would likely just piss people off. It would take a lot to get me back into organized religion of any sort. I'll study the teachings and do the practice, but I'm no longer going to be "religious". Those of us here understand that, I think. I'll go sit with the yogis.