NeutralWire Posted February 18, 2009 You know, we're the lucky ones. I agree, and thank Zeus! (We'll save the question of Buddha's concepts of 'luck' until another time eh? ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 18, 2009 I agree, and thank Zeus! (We'll save the question of Buddha's concepts of 'luck' until another time eh? ) LOL ok Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 18, 2009 Yep. It's a good question, but like someone said above, it's probably unanswerable. Maybe we just have to go with the obvious: it exists, and there are spiritual paths that address it. You know, we're the lucky ones. At least we've stopped long enough in our confused lives to recognize it and to want to do something about it. I bet most never give it more than a fleeting thought. Hey Bruce, I don't think we should let the minor problem of it being unanswerable stop us trying to answer it! Good ol' Buddha is rooting for us and we have to keep trying. If free will is the answer then are we saying - we have free will in order we can be ignorant? In which case its the same question ... WHY!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Hey Bruce, I don't think we should let the minor problem of it being unanswerable stop us trying to answer it! Good ol' Buddha is rooting for us and we have to keep trying. If free will is the answer then are we saying - we have free will in order we can be ignorant? In which case its the same question ... WHY!!!! So, an hour of zazen later and a couple of cups of tea, an answer came to me! From a Buddhist point of view, unless you're enlightened you have ignorance or illusion, whatever you want to call it. If you are born out of dependent origination, ie you don't choose to be born because you're not a Boddhisatva (enlightened to a degree), you have ignorance. Why? Karma! Only the karmic imprints are what keeps you in the cycle of birth and death anyway. So we have ignorance due to inherited karma. Do away with past karma and no more ignorance; no more illusion. Hmmm, this line of reason is making me rethink my recent agnostisism toward rebirth. Does that make sense? It's after 0200 here now. I'm going to bed. Edited February 19, 2009 by Bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 19, 2009 If you are born out of dependent origination, ie you don't choose to be born because you're not a Boddhisatva (enlightened to a degree), you have ignorance. Why? Karma! Only the karmic imprints are what keeps you in the cycle of birth and death anyway. So you are saying the reason for ignorance is karma... why does karma produce ignorance? NW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TTT Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) So you are saying the reason for ignorance is karma... why does karma produce ignorance? NW Yes indeed, what is indeed the beginning of karma? Why should there not be no karma instead? As we progress along the path and our nervous system changes, we laugh about our view of reality we had in the past. Thus, we come closer to reality everytime. As soon as we reach enlightenment it ends, we loose all our questions. This seems appealing, although I never know if it is really true, unless I experience it myself. To give a rational answer myself. I have read a lot about "everything is empty". This is how the universe works. To see something as matter (or not empty) is illusion. (particles are wave forms, only consiousness can make it a particle) And only consiousness fills the vacuum. If something is empty there are no questions, because there is nothing. Only pure bliss consiousness (sat-chit-ananda) Thus if you are consious aware of emptiness you are enlighten and you see everything is one and infinite. We just have to accept that reality is a "dreaming" holographic universe. Matter is not matter, nothing exists, only you and your dreams, it is like fluid, forget about the illusion : ) The ultimate of this holographic matrix, is the one without cause. That is God/Self : ) We are here to search him, he can do what he want. He wants to see his chilren seek him, without knowing why Maya exists.. Edited February 19, 2009 by TTT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 19, 2009 We just have to accept that reality is a "dreaming" holographic universe. Matter is not matter, nothing exists, only you and your dreams, it is like fluid, forget about the illusion : ) The ultimate of this holographic matrix, is the one without cause. That is God/Self : ) We are here to search him, he can do what he want. He wants to see his chilren seek him, without knowing why Maya exists.. Ah but if God wants us to seek him - then why dull our minds with ignorance? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted February 19, 2009 So you are saying the reason for ignorance is karma... why does karma produce ignorance? NW I was going to put in a question earlier. Do animals deal with mara/ maya? I think most of us would say no. Because they live in the here and now. Our ignorance happens because we're trying to figure out the unknowable future, regretting a misremembered past. IMHO the world (maya) is real. We are the illusion, because we rarely just accept It without covering it up in layers of thoughts, judgements and stories. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 19, 2009 All good questions! To my understanding, the beginning of karma is back to "free will", and our "abuse" of it. Of course, all of that is based on ignorance, so back to the original question in a circle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TTT Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) I was going to put in a question earlier. Do animals deal with mara/ maya? I think most of us would say no. Because they live in the here and now. Our ignorance happens because we're trying to figure out the unknowable future, regretting a misremembered past. IMHO the world (maya) is real. We are the illusion, because we rarely just accept It without covering it up in layers of thoughts, judgements and stories. Michael So why does the world (maya) exists? You just say accept it, it just exists? That's exactly what I am going to do, if I stop asking this question to myself. But I do not think is real, everything which comes and goes is not real in a sense. Are you your body? Only things which everylast are real, like the eternal self. Edited February 19, 2009 by TTT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 19, 2009 So why does the world (maya) exists? You just say accept it, it just exists? That's exactly what I am going to do, if I stop asking this question to myself. But I do not think is real, everything which comes and goes is not real in a sense. Are you your body? Only things which everylast are real, like the eternal self. Are you not really just asking the question of the ages now, the one that every religion has tried to answer? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 19, 2009 So why does the world (maya) exists? You just say accept it, it just exists? If world = maya then are we assuming that there is some real thing = the world which we can't see properly. As if we are wondering around with a visual impairment bumping into trees and thinking they are lamp-posts. Forgetting for a minute that we are part of this. Maybe we should think that 'within' us is the real-real and what is out there is either maya (i.e. illusory) or of you like a projection of something only partly seen. Two stories: The Buddha is brought up in a palace garden where everything is perfect. When he goes out he gets a shock because he sees old age, sickness and death. Old age, sickness and death are part of samsara (i.e maya=illusion) but the impact on Lord Buddha is to bring out his compassion for sentient beings who suffer these things. So was more ignorant in the palace garden or when he was addressing samsara. Adam and Eve live in Eden in perfect happiness. Along comes serpent and gets them to eat the apple of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They realize they are naked and so on and God kicks them out. They are then 'fallen' i.e. removed from God's presence, God's presence = reality and so through knowledge (loss of ignorance) they become fallen i.e. more ignorant. So why ignorance anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 19, 2009 When you look at a rose, what do you see? Just a rose? Or, do you see the sun, the wind and the rain. Do you see the earth, cow shit, dog piss, and a bumble bee? The rose is all of these things and more. It is everything, as you are. But only when you can see that the rose is not a rose, can you truely call it a rose. That's the illusion. We look at a rose with our preconceived notion of flower and rose, and fail to see everything that it is. One day when the Buddha was addressing the assembly, without a word he held up a flower. Mahakasyapa smiled. He got it. Sorry for another classic Buddhist example. It's just where my head goes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) -- Edited February 19, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 19, 2009 LOL, are you a lawyer. I think better to not talk so much and practice more. I know nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 19, 2009 So you are saying the reason for ignorance is karma... why does karma produce ignorance? NW Karma exists again because we have free will. Cause and effect. Act appropriately and there will be good karma....act inappropriately and there will be negative karma. Without free will there would be no karma, no maya, no "existance". So IMO, free will is the answer to all these questions. Without the aspect of free will in our daily lives what would we have? Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted February 19, 2009 I once knew a wonderful woman named Maya and one not quite as wonderful... I guess this is true on other levels too!? There are many Mayas and we each project our own... If not for maya we would just be bored silly with the bliss of cosmic harmony! & have no where to keep stuff from being stuff or getting stuffed! Illusion is as wonderful as a beautiful woman named Auntie Maya- so is there an anti-maya to revoke the power of maya? Can illusion be dis-spelled as it were - I sure believe it. but that may just be my illusion too?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TTT Posted February 19, 2009 I once knew a wonderful woman named Maya and one not quite as wonderful... I guess this is true on other levels too!? There are many Mayas and we each project our own... If not for maya we would just be bored silly with the bliss of cosmic harmony! & have no where to keep stuff from being stuff or getting stuffed! Illusion is as wonderful as a beautiful woman named Auntie Maya- so is there an anti-maya to revoke the power of maya? Can illusion be dis-spelled as it were - I sure believe it. but that may just be my illusion too?! An aspect of enlightenment is to be free from the cycle of death & rebirth for Buddism & Hinduism. This means, they are free of maya. Karma exists again because we have free will. Cause and effect. Act appropriately and there will be good karma....act inappropriately and there will be negative karma. Without free will there would be no karma, no maya, no "existance". So IMO, free will is the answer to all these questions. Without the aspect of free will in our daily lives what would we have? Love, Carson I think you gave a good answer to "why does maya exists" ! Indeed, the Creator created Maya, because we have free will. He gave us the worlds so we can act according to our own Karma. For example many Boddishtas choose to stay in the world to help other beings to get their enlightenment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 19, 2009 Good morning TTT, the Creator created Maya, because we have free will. He gave us the worlds so we can act according to our own Karma. For example many Boddishtas choose to stay in the world to help other beings to get their enlightenment. I would say that the "Creator" created us and gave us free will (it would be pretty boring and meaningless if he didn't) and because of that maya exists. I don't think the Creator created maya. I think maya is a byproduct of us humans having free will. We are free to choose to live in illusion or not. That's the definition of free will in my opinion. Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TTT Posted February 19, 2009 Good morning TTT, I would say that the "Creator" created us and gave us free will (it would be pretty boring and meaningless if he didn't) and because of that maya exists. I don't think the Creator created maya. I think maya is a byproduct of us humans having free will. We are free to choose to live in illusion or not. That's the definition of free will in my opinion. Love, Carson But if living enlightenment means "pure bliss consiousness" why would we humans with free will choose to live in illusion (maya) with suffering ? Why would it be boring to be in constant bliss, which is actually the goal of Hinduism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarsonZi Posted February 19, 2009 Namaste TTT, But if living enlightenment means "pure bliss consiousness" why would we humans with free will choose to live in illusion (maya) with suffering ? Why would it be boring to be in constant bliss, which is actually the goal of Hinduism. We choose to live in illusion because we do not know any better and when we do know better we can't seem to figure out how to stop. We've been living in illusion(maya) for so long, so many lifetimes, that it seems natural to us now. Well, somewhat natural anyways. It wouldn't be/isn't boring to live in pure bliss conciousness 24/7 but having no free will would be very boring. For both us and God. And life would be meaningless without free will because there would be no journey. Life is all about the journey back to True Self(No Self), and if we were knowing of our True Self all along, it wouldn't mean anything coming back to it. Therefore being born with the opportunity to live in seperation makes it that much more meaningful when we actually DO find our way back home. Make sense? Love, Carson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TTT Posted February 19, 2009 Namaste TTT, We choose to live in illusion because we do not know any better and when we do know better we can't seem to figure out how to stop. We've been living in illusion(maya) for so long, so many lifetimes, that it seems natural to us now. Well, somewhat natural anyways. It wouldn't be/isn't boring to live in pure bliss conciousness 24/7 but having no free will would be very boring. For both us and God. And life would be meaningless without free will because there would be no journey. Life is all about the journey back to True Self(No Self), and if we were knowing of our True Self all along, it wouldn't mean anything coming back to it. Therefore being born with the opportunity to live in seperation makes it that much more meaningful when we actually DO find our way back home. Make sense? Love, Carson Yes thank you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 24, 2009 Sorry to dredge this thread up again. I've been studying the Shurangama Sutra again. This section is relavant to the discussion. Shurangama Sutra section The Buddha is answering a question (which is repeated in the commentary here). The answer details the arisal of ignorance which leads to the arisal of the world as we see it. You might want to read a bit before and a bit after. The commentary is essential here. Decide for yourself whether it answers your questions. Enjoy, Bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iris Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) sorry I haven't read through this whole thing yet but something caught me on the first page... "How could there be ignorance?" I wonder how could there be enlightenment without it? Is there no up without down, no light without darkness ... These are certainly ego questions, mind games etc. As long as these questions occupy then how can the answers ever be known? And if this knowledge is attained how could it then be used for real wisdom? Let Tao lead the way. It gives me a place to keep my stuff. M. OMG - I just busted a gut Edited February 24, 2009 by Iris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
