freeform Posted February 19, 2009 The thing which made less sense to me was that 'zero' which you said was everything where 'one' was something... you seemed to be saying this was equivalent to yin and yang respectively, but it's a much different view of yin and yang than I'm used to. Â I don't tend think of yin and yang as 'absolutes'... They're relative - something can be more yang than something else that is more yin... I used 0 and 1 symbolically (it's never that simple)... and yes they do correspond with yin and yang (it wasn't an accident that the form of 0 & 1 symbolise our genitals ) Â To me + and - are normally seen as balanced, and the void neither of them, so neither has the greater claim on silence -- is this what you meant about being skewed towards yin? Â The void is very yin (with a very yang core)... It seems like a void initially - the kind of void that is as frightening as death itself because it strips away any singularity or individuality... it's a profound black hole. That's how it seems at first... with a little experience you start to discover that it's not just nothingness - it's everything - not a void but the source of everything. That's the yang within the yin. In that way it's perfectly balanced in itself (it's everything and nothing dancing together). Â The movement I was talking about in the Hermetic conception is not 'back down to silence', but about the unconscious becoming conscious (water to air) in the ordinary mind. Â That's a perfect example of the yang cycle - moving from the 0 (the belly) up to 1 (the head). Think of it as a funnel or a pyramid - at the wide end it's actually infinitely wide, at the narrow end it's singular - like a single point. As an impulse moves up the funnel it is gradually squeezed, limited down into broad sensations, then emotions, then internal representations (auditory, visual, kinesthetic) ... it moves from a primal to more mental state... untill it becomes a communicable thought - words.... this is when it's whittled down, frozen into an unchanging singular object. This is how I am able to communicate with you and you are able to understand. Â Most people have very little access to this - their awareness is stuck at the narrowest end of the funnel. Now imagine that the heat of constant awareness being focused on the narrow end of the funnel starts to melt the plastic, the narrow end becomes deformed and shaped into a specific shape. So the only thing that can get in to the narrow end of the funnel has to be that specific shape. This is how people become predictable, dull, robotic, driven by the most shallow part of them and only allowing a certain 'shape' of perceptions, sensations and behaviour... Â So the Hermetic angle is to get more awareness further down the funnel. This can be achieved in many many ways... my way, at this time is 'dying'... the yin cycle. Â If you know about the microcosmic orbit, this might be a little clearer. Taoists don't see the whole thing as a funnel... they see it as a cycle... imagine the 0 still at the bottom and the 1 still at the top... The yang path it goes up the back/spine (in the body) - the yin goes down the front of the body. Taoists have a wonderful way of seeing cycles and movements rather than stationary 'things'. Â Taoists aren't willing to settle for just going up or just going down - the yang or yin path - they want to allow the cycle to flow freely - up then down, up then down - 01010101010101 Â so - I have to mention again that none of this is 'true' - it can be seen in many different ways... it's not necessarily and up and down turning, it could be seen as a spiral upwards and a spiral downwards etc... the 0 being in the belly's not really 'true' - for example in my practice the 0 is actually in the head (yin within yang) etc... these are all just mandalas drawn in sand, ready to be blown away by the wind... actual, physical experience is where it counts... Â I'll add more when I have some time... but let me know what comes up for you.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Ah this makes much more sense now! Your description of the void in particular, although the elemental angle you have on it doesn't quite... Â What interests me particularly is: the way you describe the void is an excellent description of what is called a 'volt' in Bardon's work, which is a reality one makes with a core of yang energy pushing out from the middle and a surround of yin binding in from the outside. Spherical in shape. It's wonderful to hear someone else describing this as a living reality, but out of a totally different perspective! Â And your 'funnel' way of seeing things corresponds very well with the way I see not only this particular question of letting go of one's judgements, but a huge amount of the Hermetic approach to the body. I don't know if you knew this but fire/yang is seen at the head and water/yin at the belly in Hermetics. And the heart area corresponds to air -- in Kabbalah they say, 'the heart decides'. Â As far as the funnel is concerned, I scanned this in to show a Hermetic idea: Â Â ... which as you can see is like two interpenetrating funnels. (courtesy Robert Fludd). Â And what would you say about the heart though? This is where I see a difference still, slightly... In the way I was thinking, it's not with the head that the belly must speak to unload, but the heart, and the head likewise must go to the heart -- in other words this movement I spoke about (water to air) is to do with communication and equilibration (attributes of air). As we say that a poem could 'speak from the heart'. And this although it 'crystalizes' the fluidity, it does so in the name of leaving a flower rather than a wall, to unblock rather than re-block. Â Does your particular brand of Taoism speak about the heart-mind? Of course this air-neutrality is super-important to me, as witness my screen name! But it is again just one approach, as you are saying, not exactly 'the truth'. Â I do indeed know the orbit and I've done it quite a lot as I began long ago with Glenn Morris, so I saw where you were going with that one on the old thread. In the Hermetic elemental practice the idea is to influence the whole system simultaneously by loading the elements into the elemental regions... but this takes us off-topic really. Bottom line on that one is that this is not 'movement' in either direction. What both those practices have in common is a desire to see the movement and equilibrate it to get inside. Â A comparison with the orbit is very interesting, but in the system Bardon taught, the elements are distinct from the way the void moves as having manifested in a particular way 'already'. The origin or cause of the movement is the void, so yin is not seen as unmoving, but moving opposite to yang. In other words, both plus and minus is already 'something not nothing'... but I am probably hairsplitting because I get the movement you're speaking of. You are definitely correct that the external aspect of the void is fearful (which is watery), indeed Bardon says precisely that. Very cool! Â My conception has just naturally evolved to fit this model, where different parts of the body can speak or can be silent in different ways... but it seems that even quite dissimilar approaches intuitively can approach one another, very interesting! Â All best wishes, Â ~NeutralWire~ Edited February 19, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Edited February 20, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted February 20, 2009 Heart! yes!  Something I didn't touch on to keep things a little more simple  And deci belle - yes the non-location of the middle dan tien (heart) - you're completely right on one level... I'll explain myself...  Firstly - my views are not Taoist per se - I've just found it easy to pin my experience to the Taoist model, but I'm not very well studied in the area (and not that well experienced either! )  The heart centre, is indeed a mediator between the extremes of 0 and 1. It's in between complete limitedness of 1 and limitlessness of 0. and the way it mediates is through emotions!  emotions carry far more information and energy than thoughts and are very much more 'distinct' than the primordial nothingness. When I say 'emotion' the mind makes a shallow representation of that - of course emotion is far broader than that... it's indeed the subconscious - all archetypal stories of humanity come from the heart.  What I've discovered is that the heart is like a pool of all possible sensations, emotions, archetypal themes etc. It's all happening at the same time, all perfectly balanced - there is as much fear as courage - as much sorrow as joy - and all there all the time. In our life we tend to have 'reasons' for emotions happening... I'm happy because I won the lottery... in actual fact I've found that the mind shines it's narrow beam of light into the heart area and focuses only on the aspect of happiness (even though sadness and every other emotion is still there, but not 'activated' by the light of awareness). That's why it seems emotions happen as a result of external (or internal) events...  Now - the non-locality that deci belle mentioned. In Taoism 0 = jing, 1 = shen and heart = chi. The heart is to do with chi, emotions have to do with chi - energy in motion. Chi is everywhere, it moves, it cycles - in a micro way (in your body meridians) and in a macro way - in seasons and planetary movements...  NM - Really cool stuff regarding the Hermetic model having a correlation with my experience. I'll make sure to pick up some Bardon books - any recommendations!?  You're right about the balance above and below - there 'kind of' is - there is yin within yang and yang within yin... That's why the ascending kundalini (which is thought of as yin) is so hot and fiery and expansive... and the descending kundalini is profound emptiness.  The alchemy that seems to be happening for me (very very early stages) is the uniting of bliss and emptiness in the heart.  I'm finding it hard to write today  sometimes the words flow with no effort - today they don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Personally I wouldn't recommend you get any Bardon books, because your own practice is different and it would probably just be overthinky. I think just a look at the cover of the first book would be enough to give you a cross-cultural smile: Â Â ... I just enlarged the three figures at the bottom of the image. The two on the outside represent (alchemical stylee) not woman and man but 'the plus and minus in a human being' as he says. The red is +/yang and the blue -/yin, so the from and to is different in each case. Essentially it's the same as the interlocking funnels. The central androgyne represents the necessary equilibration between the principles, for which the orbit is also a valuable method. Â For me the thought/emotion thing is different from how you put it, because it is not really that one carries more information, it is more (for me personally) that there is a} a different type of information, and b} information that is not under conscious control and so it needs to be 'flowed with', and I think this is what you were trying to tell Hagar before, which I also was, concerning the image which pops up and tries to 'freeze the emotion'. Â As far as needing to dive into the sea of emotion is concerned, I know what you mean. To me the diaphragm is the shoreline. Â What I think you've supplied that was missing is the idea of things being in motion through the heart. This flow is key for me as well, and just releasing blockages which impede that flow is what causes the a-ha moment which we spoke of before. Â Thanks for the overlapping waves! NW Edited February 20, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted February 20, 2009 Really appreciate both the topic and your perspectives~ very refreshing to say the least, NeutralWire and freeform. I also work to gain a practical vocabulary from these rich teachings which helps me digest shifts in terms of changes in experiential modes. And I love the diagrams! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 21, 2009 deci belle   appreciate both the topic and your perspectives~ very refreshing to say the least, NeutralWire and freeform. I also work to gain a practical vocabulary from these rich teachings which helps me digest shifts in terms of changes in experiential modes  I appreciate your input also. I always thought everyone worked this way! lol  And I love the diagrams!  Oh, funky diagrams and Hermetics are intertwined like funky stances and Taoism or funky riddles and zen. lol  If you want more (really want), check out this book:  http://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Mysticism-He...5025&sr=1-4  ... it'll keep you going for years. I have no idea what most of it means.  All best wishes,  ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 21, 2009 While I've got you here, can I ask you what your avatar is? NW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
