The soft overcomes the hard -- or does it?

[DaoChild]

We all know this well-known passage from the Tao Te Ching.

 

But, what I'm here to ask is if that's always the case in nature? Sure, the example always given is water. It yields and it is soft but over many lifetimes it can erode away mountains.

 

But in the world of animals, often times the bigger, stronger male gets the mate. In fact, that's almost always the case. In a forest, if trees yield to the other ones - they've lost part of the arms race. They are now forced to be an understory tree, with reduce sunlight, and therefore reduced growth. Yep yep I know the flexible tree won't be broken by the hurricane.

 

I understand the practice and agree with it, and in some parts of my life can put it into practice.

 

But i'm not quite sure if that's the underlying scheme of nature. I realize that we are soft, flexible, and warm while alive, and the opposite is true when we expire. Still, I'm having trouble really grasping how this applies as the 'general scheme' of nature.

 

Any ideas?

Edited February 22, 2009 by DaoChild

[fiveelementtao]

We all know this well-known passage from the Tao Te Ching.

But in the world of animals, often times the bigger, stronger male gets the mate.

 

or is it that the female mate always attracts the bigger, stronger male... My yoga teacher used to say that attraction always starts with the female. The male pursues and only THINKS it's his idea.

I know this is a broad generalization and will sound sexist to some, but my point is perception can change everything. I have found in internal martial arts that the most explosive power is the feminine. The easiest opponent to defeat is the big muscular MMA guy with huge biceps and rock hard chest. Just tap him with feminine chi and he will crumble. I believe that the reason why so many cultures have tried to keep women down is because that men have an unconscious knowing that if women were allowed to fully tap into their natural feminine power, that men would be helpless...

Edited February 22, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[forestofsouls]

It is the nature of things to change. Rigidity means to remain the same--- to go against the natural order which is to flow.

[DaoChild]

I have found in internal martial arts that the most explosive power is the feminine. The easiest opponent to defeat is the big muscular MMA guy with huge biceps and rock hard chest. Just tap him with feminine chi and he will crumble.

 

I would love to see that. Have any videos?

[doc benway]

We all know this well-known passage from the Tao Te Ching.

 

But, what I'm here to ask is if that's always the case in nature?

 

 

It is the nature of things to change. Rigidity means to remain the same--- to go against the natural order which is to flow.

I agree with forestofsouls - I'm not sure the Dao De Jing literally means that the soft always overcomes the hard. I take it much more loosely in terms of the flexible being more likely to succeed than the inflexible - and not just from a physical point of view.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Look at the yin and yang symbol.... there's a whole other half to it besides the yin aspect

 

The thing about water is, yes, it flows around things.... but water can also create waves and smash into things (yang). How many ships have been smashed onto rocks by huge waves? Water isn't only passive, water doesn't JUST flow around things. We've seen what a huge tsunami can do to even a very huge city.

 

A bendy tree yields to the wind, but that doesn't mean it won't fight for sunlight. Look at how plants in awkward places grow into equally awkward shapes to fight for sunlight.

 

And as for animals, there are plenty of female animals that take control of the male. Female lions do the hunting, that's pretty yang if you ask me.

 

I agree with forestofsouls - I'm not sure the Dao De Jing literally means that the soft always overcomes the hard. I take it much more loosely in terms of the flexible being more likely to succeed than the inflexible - and not just from a physical point of view.

 

I liked how you used the word flexible .... I think that's the key word here, "flexible", thanks for bringing it up, a great way to put it!

 

Yes, be flexible enough to flow around a situation and yield to an incoming force. But if all you do is yield, that's still being inflexible, because you have closed yourself off to the ability to flow head on into something.

 

Be flexible enough to yield. Be flexible enough to change to a straight attack if need be. The extreme of softness will create extreme hardness, just like extreme hardness will create extreme softness. Within Yin lies elements of yang (female lions doing the hunting), within Yang lies Yin (men being under total control of a woman who has successfully seduced them ). It's all there, and remember, be flexible enough to be open to anything you have to do in any situation or circumstance.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[fiveelementtao]

I would love to see that. Have any videos?

In this video I demonstrate on my student who has spent his life in both external and internal martial arts. He is much bigger than I and is a very strong guy. He has spent a long time learning how to "take a punch". This video is done in controlled situations, but in my experience, the Spirit Fighting energy (which is powered by yin (feminine) chi) and is done with zero muscle strength, is worst on muscly guys. because muscles are full of nerves and it takes alot of Chi to power muscles. Spirit fighting Chi acts like a taser gun and overloads the muscles and they cant function. My student in this video, had been training with me for some time so he was more able to withstand the energy. But the first time I tapped him on the chest, he literally ran away from me screaming like a girl. In the Los Angeles class, my sifu tried to market his class to MMA types and they all washed out because they couldn't stand the hits. One guy asked my sifu, "Are there alot of people with this kind of energy?" My sifu said he knew of a handful of people. When the MMA guy heard that, he said, "Well, then I quit class, since there is little chance I will have to fight someone like you." Muscly guys don't like the idea of giving up their "guns". When I first came to Sifu Hata's class, I was a bodybuilder. I was 2.5 inches taller than him and at least 40 lbs heavier. When he tapped me on my big pecs, it felt like a bomb went off inside me and I knew that if he wanted to attack me, there would have been nothing I could do to stop him.

 

ccN6pZumFOQ

[Spectrum]

I just saw this video come up as related when I was checking my youtube biz.

 

Would you like me to comment on your video?

[fiveelementtao]

I just saw this video come up as related when I was checking my youtube biz.

 

Would you like me to comment on your video?

 

If you mean on youtube, I'm not sure if Sifu has enabled comments, but feel free. If you mean here, I hope you will be kind...

[Ryan T.]

But in the world of animals, often times the bigger, stronger male gets the mate. In fact, that's almost always the case.

 

Until the next mating season when the "strongest" gets challenged all over again and at some point gets damaged/dies and is de-throwned.

 

In a forest, if trees yield to the other ones - they've lost part of the arms race. They are now forced to be an understory tree, with reduce sunlight, and therefore reduced growth.

 

Until someone comes along and chops down the biggest tree because it is the biggest and strongest and has the straightest wood.

 

 

I understand the practice and agree with it, and in some parts of my life can put it into practice.

 

But i'm not quite sure if that's the underlying scheme of nature. I realize that we are soft, flexible, and warm while alive, and the opposite is true when we expire. Still, I'm having trouble really grasping how this applies as the 'general scheme' of nature.

 

Any ideas?

 

I find the more that I apply this idea to my life the easier my life gets. It most certainly improves my internal martial arts training. I find there is a real benefit to investing in loss.

[DaoChild]

In this video I demonstrate on my student who has spent his life in both external and internal martial arts. He is much bigger than I and is a very strong guy. He has spent a long time learning how to "take a punch". This video is done in controlled situations, but in my experience, the Spirit Fighting energy (which is powered by yin (feminine) chi) and is done with zero muscle strength, is worst on muscly guys. because muscles are full of nerves and it takes alot of Chi to power muscles. Spirit fighting Chi acts like a taser gun and overloads the muscles and they cant function. My student in this video, had been training with me for some time so he was more able to withstand the energy. But the first time I tapped him on the chest, he literally ran away from me screaming like a girl. In the Los Angeles class, my sifu tried to market his class to MMA types and they all washed out because they couldn't stand the hits. One guy asked my sifu, "Are there alot of people with this kind of energy?" My sifu said he knew of a handful of people. When the MMA guy heard that, he said, "Well, then I quit class, since there is little chance I will have to fight someone like you." Muscly guys don't like the idea of giving up their "guns". When I first came to Sifu Hata's class, I was a bodybuilder. I was 2.5 inches taller than him and at least 40 lbs heavier. When he tapped me on my big pecs, it felt like a bomb went off inside me and I knew that if he wanted to attack me, there would have been nothing I could do to stop him.

 

ccN6pZumFOQ

 

It looked like pressure point stimulation. Inner forearm, brachial plexus -- no?

 

You guys make a lot of valid points though - thanks for clarification. I think, as others have said, that flexibility is the key here. Softness, rather than meaning always yielding, is more of an indicator of adaptation. Non-resistance to whatever is happening can permit softness and flexbility (even hardness when the time is right).

Edited February 23, 2009 by DaoChild

[fiveelementtao]

It looked like pressure point stimulation. Inner forearm, brachial plexus -- no?

 

Yes. it does look that. and certainly we can use points, but with Spirit fighting energy, it really doesn't matter where you touch someone. We can't show most stuff we do on video 'cause it doesn't look real. I picked the stuff that looked the most like other stuff so people could have a frame of reference when watching it. Otherwise it just looks wierd.

[YMWong]

We all know this well-known passage from the Tao Te Ching.

 

Laozi never said "The soft overcomes the hard".

 

This is what he wrote:

 

人之生也柔弱，其死也堅強。

When people are born they are gentle and soft, at death they are hard and stiff.

萬物草木之生也柔脆，其死也枯槁。

When plants are alive they are soft and delicate, when they die they wither and dry up.

故堅強者死之徒，柔弱者生之徒。

Therefore the hard and stiff are followers of death, the gentle and soft are the followers of life.

是以兵強則不勝，木強則兵。

Thus, if you are aggressive and stiff, you won't win. When a tree is hard enough, it is cut. Therefore

強大處下，柔弱處上。

The hard and big are lesser, the gentle and soft are greater.

 

[AC Muller]

 

YM

[DaoChild]

Ch. 36

 

"The soft overcomes the hard.

The slow overcomes the fast.

Let your workings remain a mystery.

Just show people the result."

 

 

Different translations i suppose.

 

In my other translation it says "the soft and weak conquer the strong."

[YMWong]

Ch. 36

 

"The soft overcomes the hard.

The slow overcomes the fast.

Let your workings remain a mystery.

Just show people the result."

Different translations i suppose.

 

In my other translation it says "the soft and weak conquer the strong."

 

You are right, sorry, I was thinking about chapter 76 (translated above)

 

YM

[YMWong]

Chapter 36

 

將欲弱之，必固張之；

That which will be shrunk, must first be stretched

將欲弱之，必固強之；

That which will be weakened, must first be strengthened

將欲廢之，必固興之；

That which will be torn down, must first be raised up

將欲奪之，必固與之。

That which will be taken, must first be given

是謂微明。

This is called "subtle illumination."

柔弱勝剛強。

The gentle and soft overcomes the hard and aggressive.

魚不可脫於淵，國之利器不可以示人。

A fish cannot leave the water, the country's potent weapons should not be shown to its people

 

YM

[Kim88]

Another way of looking at the yielding/ soft- hard, being flexible thing is to choose your fights

[Loke]

- and a game. I cant find the english name for it but I put a link to the sw wikipedia

so you can figure out from the picture what game it is.

 

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten,_sax,_p%C3%A5se

[doc benway]

 

Yes, be flexible enough to flow around a situation and yield to an incoming force. But if all you do is yield, that's still being inflexible, because you have closed yourself off to the ability to flow head on into something.

 

Be flexible enough to yield. Be flexible enough to change to a straight attack if need be. The extreme of softness will create extreme hardness, just like extreme hardness will create extreme softness. Within Yin lies elements of yang (female lions doing the hunting), within Yang lies Yin (men being under total control of a woman who has successfully seduced them ). It's all there, and remember, be flexible enough to be open to anything you have to do in any situation or circumstance.

 

I like how you fleshed this out.

All too often, people are misled by the Taiji classics to believe that Taijiquan is always soft.

This is a complete misinterpretation.

Taiji, like life, is balance - soft and hard.

I think the intention of the statement "soft overcomes hard" is to remind people to balance the two, not necessarily that either is superior. Remember the principle of mutual arising.

[林愛偉]

We all know this well-known passage from the Tao Te Ching.

 

But, what I'm here to ask is if that's always the case in nature? Sure, the example always given is water. It yields and it is soft but over many lifetimes it can erode away mountains.

 

But in the world of animals, often times the bigger, stronger male gets the mate. In fact, that's almost always the case. In a forest, if trees yield to the other ones - they've lost part of the arms race. They are now forced to be an understory tree, with reduce sunlight, and therefore reduced growth. Yep yep I know the flexible tree won't be broken by the hurricane.

 

I understand the practice and agree with it, and in some parts of my life can put it into practice.

 

But i'm not quite sure if that's the underlying scheme of nature. I realize that we are soft, flexible, and warm while alive, and the opposite is true when we expire. Still, I'm having trouble really grasping how this applies as the 'general scheme' of nature.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

THe world of animals is much different than the world of humans. As a human, one cannot look to the world of animals for answers. Animals have their own nature, and unless one wants to be like animals they shouldn't follow what animals do.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[DaoChild]

Sorry - I guess it didn't make it clear

 

What i was referring to is that we are subject (just like animals -- we ARE animals) to the laws of nature. Animals seem to find a way to do this harmoniously, no qualms, just doing. They instinctively know what's best, that's the reason I added that to it.

 

xuesheng, thanks for clarifying that. I actually knew very little about Taiji until recently - and I read something exactly like what you just said. That makes a LOT more sense than how I was thinking of it, thanks for making sense of it.

[林愛偉]

Sorry - I guess it didn't make it clear

 

What i was referring to is that we are subject (just like animals -- we ARE animals) to the laws of nature. Animals seem to find a way to do this harmoniously, no qualms, just doing. They instinctively know what's best, that's the reason I added that to it.

 

xuesheng, thanks for clarifying that. I actually knew very little about Taiji until recently - and I read something exactly like what you just said. That makes a LOT more sense than how I was thinking of it, thanks for making sense of it.

 

 

 

Animals do it easily because they don't have a reasoning mind, as is their nature. They abide by their Karma, and when their conditions are finished, that consciousness moves to the next proper vessel for their mind's vibrational level/karma.

Yet, this doesn't mean its all harmonious. They just go with conditions till their conditions are finished.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Wayfarer64]

Just this past Friday night I almost got into a fight with a guy less than half my age-- (I'll be 55 in a couple weeks...)

 

Scenerio- Birthday party at the apartment of an attractive 22 year old girl - some several 20 somethings and several older folks like me as well... Tho I was probably the eldest there ... We are in a pretty smalll town with only one bar so we get to know one another, watching sports, playing darts or pool etc...

 

Towards the midnight hour a few of the younger guys were getting into shoving matches etc... basic testosterone crap...The older guys just calmly cooled them out with humor but one guy was being very rude and macho- when I kissed the birthday girl goodnight to leave -he was next to us and reached over to tug at my (gray) beard... I smiled & swept his hand away and said -"we're all friends here" then turned my back and said some further good nights- he immediatly had started to follow as if my brushing his hand away was an afront to him...

 

Other older guys just stared him down as he came up behind me... I was aware of him having followed me and felt myself steel-up for letting loose, having sensed his ill will... But the few older guys just showed thier comradery and the event disapated away - but that kid was looking for a fight, a united front of good-will disapated his urge for violence...or so it seemed -it could have been the force of numbers and not the general air of good-will who is to say!? In any case the soft curtailed the hard in that case...

 

The or does it... still rings as a question -what actually stopped his seemingly ill-willed activities?

[DaoChild]

I agree with you wayfarer.

 

I've avoided fights my whole life, but part of me really wants to get into fights. I always want to test my martial arts, but more than that, I'm someone who (for good or bad) really is into justice -- people getting what they deserve. Unfortunately, even when it's not my job or call.

 

Bars are infamous for people picking fights, and I've had a few people pick fights with me. usually they are pretty drunk so as soon as you chuckle they lose interest quickly, but it's funny how quickly a fight can start (over nothing).

 

And usually if you are soft, you can let the fight pass over. But not always.

[doc benway]

xuesheng, thanks for clarifying that. I actually knew very little about Taiji until recently - and I read something exactly like what you just said. That makes a LOT more sense than how I was thinking of it, thanks for making sense of it.

My pleasure - glad I could help!