existing in two places at once

[goldisheavy]

I like how NeutralWire explains it. Mostly I agree with NeutralWire, and my favorite bits are:

 

In Taoism this would be called cultivation of Essence (Xing) without cultivation of Life/Destiny (Ming).

 

and

 

I don't consider these in themselves enough to develop what I call 'wisdom' because it is hard to change beliefs and life patterns this way. For that task I prefer affirmation, self-hypnosis, storytelling, and various other things.

 

There is an aspect of approaching the appearances creatively with a sense of personal responsibility, rather than merely adjusting one's own psyche for a less bumpy ride. Zen is utterly missing this creative aspect. This is where something like Western Chaos Magic is much much supreme in the attitude. Unfortunately, in my opinion Chaos Magic writings lack wisdom, even if they have a perfectly good attitude toward creativity. So to my mind there is no perfect school or tradition or an author that has it all balanced out and harmonized. Everyone is wrong. Some waste their time on energy when the same effects can be attained through symbolic intention directly, without any intermediate manifestations (such as those of energies). Others spend so much time on reflection that they create a sense of passivity and of life being nothing more than a TV show where the best you can hope for is to not be depressed by what you see. Others spend all their time talking about how you can become a TV show producer, but then they tell you absolutely nothing, or even worse, wrong information about how the TV actually works and what works best for making your own films and so forth.

 

So the wisdom traditions, from my tiny mind, are all garbage if we take them wholesale. But at the same time, if we do not take them wholesale, and if we mine them like you'd mine the gold out of the gold mine, are a source of great wealth. But I wouldn't set up my home inside a dank gold mine and live there. No way. Looking for diamonds in the middle of big piles of dung is something I do when I interact with religions and various teachers. However I don't want to live in the dung. When I relax, I don't have the dung in my mind, but only the diamond-like impressions I have gathered from all over the place. That's my attitude toward interacting with convention.

 

The problem I have with calling what I do an exercise, is this. I actually do some real exercises, and the thing with an exercise is that I always have an ulterior motive. For example, if I do pull ups, it's not like I want to be doing pull ups for the rest of my life. I do them to feel better the next day, and to get stronger. If I could find a way to feel stronger and better without pull ups, I would, as long as it's a healthy one (no pills, no gimmicks, no synthol, and no muscle grafts for me when people learn to grow muscle tissues in a vat). If or when I learn to become strong through a more abstract kind of intent, I will dump the pull ups. So the thing with exercise is that it's not necessarily pleasant, and it is repetitive, and it's not the end goal. So for example, my pull ups are mostly the same. Sure I can throw some variety into them, like doing offset pull ups, or adding dynamic tension, or some other spices, at the end of the day, they are the mostly the same, or they are more same than they are different.

 

On the other hand, contemplation is something that's pure joy. I don't do it for something else. I don't know anything more pleasant. I like to live my life in a contemplative state of mind, not because this will give me some other thing, but because it's natural to me and I like it a lot. It's not something I have to force myself to do. I spontaneously do it from birth. Or it can be said that I don't "do" it, but it arises effortlessly. In fact the word "arises" is wrong, because there is no beginning or end to it. So "arises" is also out. Since my contemplation is not really a period of time, and since it's not rote by any means, it's not scheduled in any way (unlike say for Franz Bardon, who wants you to do it at a certain time, etc.). From a perspective of a so-called "disciplined" person, I am a lazy non-practitioner. From my perspective, the "arduous foolhardy practitioner" is wasting his energy on the account of his spiritual or mental laziness. When I look back to the practitioner, I say to myself, "if he had the same inner discipline as me, he wouldn't need so much discipline, and he could be lazy like me". It's because people lack the spirit, they must compensate with artificial, conceptual, structured discipline. If you got the right spirit, you can be a jackass moron who does nothing special (seemingly!) and still be in bliss.

 

This is why I am not full of praise for meditation. I won't put meditation down, but I don't get awfully excited about it either. The only time I would recommend meditation over contemplation is if the person simply cannot think on a single topic and their mind simply cannot even maintain a coherent train of thought. In that case I would recommend meditation. However people like that are extremely rare (and they are mostly in the psych wards I think). Most regular people can maintain a topic in their mind that they are interested in. And if the person is not interested in a topic, I would never recommend to fake the interest. I would try to arouse genuine interest, and if that fails, I'd not try to suggest that the interest must be faked.

 

The main problem that a person faces in life is one's own beliefs, rather than a mind that's unable to focus. An antidote to beliefs is not an attitude of avoiding thinking! Instead an antidote is an attitude of active critical self-questioning, as I see it. At some point the person begins to see that there is power that's available. There is creativity. Then the passive living stops, and active living begins. But by active living I don't mean running around doing a lot of tasks on the conceptual level! That's what mortals do and all their activities have the flavor of passivity, since they are not creative, but are boring predictable and stifled responses to life. So active living is not the same as being a busy body. Being an American style busy body full of ambition is pretty much the opposite of active creative living.

Edited February 28, 2009 by goldisheavy

[NeutralWire]

forestofsouls --

 

I don't practice mental void, at least not since my Bardon days.

 

... you'll have to forgive me then, I did think that you were meaning voidness of mind. My mistake!

 

goldisheavy --

 

Agree on Chaos Magick lacking wisdom, etc. I do get your attitude, and I totally understand the love you have of contemplation and why you wouldn't want to mix it up with a 'forced achievement' attitude. Where perhaps we differ is that I think you can practice Bardon without that attitude -- in other words, the attitude isn't endemic to his course but is something inside oneself.

 

Personally I do try never to practice anything without that sense of play, discovery and (in the case of contemplation) love. In the case of changing one's personality and earthly destiny, following Erickson, I've discovered like you that creativity is the most important thing. The only way to manifest differently is to see beyond the patterns... I think of it in terms of storytelling because I think of it all as stories that are arising, and of rewriting them.

 

Bardon is written in a certain cajoling manner suitable for its time and place, but if one doesn't actually do it out of love, one won't continue long.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[Ian]

I do rather suspect, that if one has an ability to slip effortlessly into states which appear to make meditation unnecessary, that one has probably spent a few lifetimes meditating, realising the limitations of meditation, and learning to finesse it, in exactly the fashion that now seems so pointless and unnnecessary.

 

At the very least, there must be some parami accumulated which makes the mind do otherwise than pogo about like a housefly on amphetamines, cos that's how most of us start out.

 

Just a hunch.

[Spectrum]

Perhaps it is the mental dialog with perception that gets dimensionally funneled into a single point of reference called perspective. By interacting in environments that shift those perspectives, we find aspects of ourselves that we have long forgotten.

[katonline]

Het Kat, thanx alot for the experience you shared here, im trying the points you mentioned very intresting !

 

Are these the correct points to press yust to be shure ?

 

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoi...eridian_graphic

 

-> starting at PC 4 ending about a centimeter further when going towards PC5 ? a denser area between the tendons ? i seem to relax instantly when i energize this area a bit quit enjoyable to be honest.

 

And

 

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoi...eridian_graphic

 

-> right next to LU 8 and right after where the round bone ends ?

 

Thanx alot and regards, Mike

 

====================================================================

 

Well, Mike,

 

The webpages you list are not there, maybe have been moved? So, I can't see what chart you are referring to, nor do I know the names of the points. Can you guide me to another chart, so I can answer your question?

[minkus]

Hey Kat,

 

Here are the both images in attachment can you find the points ?

 

-> starting at PC 4 ending about a centimeter further when going towards PC5 ? a denser area between the tendons ? i seem to relax instantly when i energize this area a bit quit enjoyable to be honest.

 

-> right next to LU 8 and right after where the round bone ends ?

 

Cheers and thanx for the help.

 

Mike

Edited March 2, 2009 by minkus

[katonline]

Mike,

 

Yeah, those are the two. When the practitioners did it, they alternated activating the points over a period of minutes. Being in the resultant state lasted quite a while after the session ended - driving a car was really out of the question!

These practitioners worked in tandem with clients, both working at the same time. Funny, when I asked them if they had experienced the state that I was experiencing during and after sessions with them, they both told me that they ALWAYS experienced being in that state when working with people, no matter the client's session needs, points pressed, or other factors.

There's a difference between the state I experienced when having these points "activated", and the three days and nights of being in this type of state.

During the Jin Shin Do experience state, I was not able to "hear" other people thinking, nor did I have any "knowledge" of the intentions of other people. It certainly lasted much less time (20 minutes, as opposed to 72 =/- hours). It was not nearly as "intense" as the 3 day experience I had, or the other times I seem to flip in and out of this experience without being in a session for body work.

During experiences of being in the state without body work, it is very difficult to interact with people in the corporeal plane. People often ask if I'm "on something", they state that I am "unnaturally calm". I can't really clearly see my face in the mirror -it's just a haze - once, I wanted to see if my pupils were dilated, or something, but could not see them clearly. I don't look in mirrors very often anymore. Also, when in this state, I have no wants or needs... I do have a vague feeling of hunger or cold or that my body needs some corporeal attention, but it's a very superficial feeling, and accompanied by a distinct awareness of non-attachment -I don't really care if I itch that scratch or eat or drink. Sleeping is a unique experience during these states: the closest I can describe it as, is sort of like bobbing in and out of lucid dreaming, but it's nothing like sleep as I know it. I have been in this state at times, and people have gotten really upset at my appearance; one woman told me that I was glowing, and she was really freaked out. I made a hasty exit because I was really not wanting her to see me like that, and on my way out was trying to think of how to "turn it off" so no one else would see me like that on my way out of the building.

I am not uncomfortable with being in this state, for me it feels normal, having experienced it since I was very young. But it seems to be an uncomfortable experience for (some) people who see it; although I'm not attached to other people's baggage and how they choose to handle what they encounter in life -I am aware that keeping a low profile lessens my chances of being consigned to a diet of lab rat food.

As much as it would be a giggle to say that this experience is fun, or entertaining, that really isn't the case.

I would like to meet other people who experience this phenomenon.

 

[jadelily]

BUMP.

[jadelily]

Double Bump because this thread is that GOOD...no GREAT!