Global climate change.......

[ZenStatic]

It was said in another thread that population expansion etc, is our biggest issue for global climate change. Lo and behold, that may not be the case. http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

[Taiji Bum]

Cow farts? Global warming was over in 1990. It stayed steady for 10 years and since then the earth has been cooling. Go to a real science site like NASA to do some research before you believe an article designed with a political agenda.

[joeblast]

Even NASA's been tainted by idiots like James Hansen.

[Taoist81]

Cow farts? Global warming was over in 1990. It stayed steady for 10 years and since then the earth has been cooling. Go to a real science site like NASA to do some research before you believe an article designed with a political agenda.

 

"over in 1990"? Nasa doesn't seem to suggest that.

 

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/global_warming_worldbook.html

[DaoChild]

Not quite sure you got the idea that global warming just "stopped" in 1990.

[ralis]

Climate change is a reality! Warming and cooling are both part of this change. However that is a simplistic point of view. That is where opposing views clash. The worldwide planetary system is not and has never been just some simple system.

 

Complex systems can best be explained by Chaos Theory aka Non Linear Dynamics. What are the criteria that defines a complex system? More than two variables for starters. Also initial conditions that effect change in the entire system. However, we are talking about Deterministic Chaos, not some absolutely unpredictable system.

 

The problem we face now is the intrusion of humans using fossil fuels and how that use effects the entire planetary system. That makes the right wing corporate view moot. The view being that we are just in another natural cycle.

 

The science is sound and agreed on by most scientists worldwide. The exceptions being the shills hired by oil companies.

 

As for Dr. Hansen, the Bush administration revised his research. Not revisionism by another scientist, but Republican operative lawyers. That was outrageous!

 

Here is a brief explantion of Non Linear Dynamics

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

 

ralis

[Aetherous]

We can't even accurately predict the weather most days...

[DaoChild]

There IS variation in regard to the global temperature.

 

Historically, there have been 5 major extinctions -- the reason why everyone is all up-in-arms now is because this one (the current 6th) is dramatically (dramatically) larger than the other 5 extinctions.

[ralis]

There IS variation in regard to the global temperature.

 

Historically, there have been 5 major extinctions -- the reason why everyone is all up-in-arms now is because this one (the current 6th) is dramatically (dramatically) larger than the other 5 extinctions.

 

 

Variation indeed! I wish people would listen to this kind of reasoning.

 

 

Thanks

 

ralis

 

We can't even accurately predict the weather most days...

 

 

What point are you trying to make? The climate change model is not based on predicting whether it will rain or snow tomorrow.

 

ralis

Edited February 26, 2009 by ralis

[YMWong]

http://mrjam.typepad.com/diary/2009/02/the...as-arrived.html

 

YM

[Ya Mu]

Cow farts? Global warming was over in 1990. It stayed steady for 10 years and since then the earth has been cooling. Go to a real science site like NASA to do some research before you believe an article designed with a political agenda.

 

Evidenced by all the glaciers regaining their ice packs since 1990. And of course, there is ALL THAT SNOW AND ICE that has accumulated on Kilimanjaro since 1990.

[gendao]

What point are you trying to make? The climate change model is not based on predicting whether it will rain or snow tomorrow.

I agree. It's just like the stock market - you have fractal trends at every resolution. So, just cuz it spikes up a little one day, doesn't mean it still hasn't gone down overall during the whole week.

 

And if you zoom out to the last few decades, global heat has risen, thus causing continued melting of our ice cap heat sinks and rising sea levels.

t7T7beACtQs

I really don't care how much of this is natural vs human-influenced. Point is, it's gettin' hot in hurrr!

Edited February 26, 2009 by vortex

[ZenStatic]

Cow farts? Global warming was over in 1990. It stayed steady for 10 years and since then the earth has been cooling. Go to a real science site like NASA to do some research before you believe an article designed with a political agenda.

 

Hey, whatever lies you want to tell yourself to try and feel better. But if you don't think there is a shitload of methane from livestock, go visit a factory farm.

[ralis]

Hey, whatever lies you want to tell yourself to try and feel better. But if you don't think there is a shitload of methane from livestock, go visit a factory farm.

 

You don't believe carbon emissions have anything to do with climate change? How do you measure the effect of this methane on the worldwide environment? Is it greater than the effect of carbon emissions?

 

ralis

[Dreamingawake]

yeah the whole time that the earth was getting warmer, so were the other planets. thats why the moons of some

of them that were made of ice MELTED. you read that right; we burn fossil fuels here and the moons of other

planets melt?! come-on theres already plenty of evidence that the sun was responsible for global warming.

i say was because we've been cooling off for some time now. Al Gores polar bears that are supposedly going

extinct have increased their numbers by more than 10,000 in the last decade. btw some of these guys are

the same ones who were screaming 'ice age' back in the 70's and they said it was carbon then too so apparently

it heats the earth sometimes and other times makes it really cold... how convenient

 

Just look at the coalition that founded the current pro-global warming trend; a group numbering about 300

many of whom were politicians. now use that famous google-fu to look up the petition signed by over 31,000

actual scientists who say global warming is complete bunk. most of them are pissed cuz Gore has hijacked

the environmental movement and is diverting attention away from actual problems in order to achieve his

own political agenda.

 

if you look at the 'gore troups' policies and stated intentions you find out that the whole point of scaring people

with global warming is so they can invent a 'carbon tax' (thats a tax on breathing to you and me). the big plan

is to issue every citizen carbon credits. and if you exceed these credits you pay a huge fine, but not to big brother

(cuz we all love him). you pay this fine to the PRIVATE BANKS that issue these credits. the idea is to start with

a number of credits that any normal person can tolerate so that nobody riots and then once its in place

to severely cut down the credits issued each year. thats right Al Gores big plan is to make you pay your

loving bankers to breath and why not? how many of us already buy water? i just wish i'd thought of it first

[ralis]

yeah the whole time that the earth was getting warmer, so were the other planets. thats why the moons of some

of them that were made of ice MELTED. you read that right; we burn fossil fuels here and the moons of other

planets melt?! come-on theres already plenty of evidence that the sun was responsible for global warming.

i say was because we've been cooling off for some time now. Al Gores polar bears that are supposedly going

extinct have increased their numbers by more than 10,000 in the last decade. btw some of these guys are

the same ones who were screaming 'ice age' back in the 70's and they said it was carbon then too so apparently

it heats the earth sometimes and other times makes it really cold... how convenient

 

Just look at the coalition that founded the current pro-global warming trend; a group numbering about 300

many of whom were politicians. now use that famous google-fu to look up the petition signed by over 31,000

actual scientists who say global warming is complete bunk. most of them are pissed cuz Gore has hijacked

the environmental movement and is diverting attention away from actual problems in order to achieve his

own political agenda.

 

if you look at the 'gore troups' policies and stated intentions you find out that the whole point of scaring people

with global warming is so they can invent a 'carbon tax' (thats a tax on breathing to you and me). the big plan

is to issue every citizen carbon credits. and if you exceed these credits you pay a huge fine, but not to big brother

(cuz we all love him). you pay this fine to the PRIVATE BANKS that issue these credits. the idea is to start with

a number of credits that any normal person can tolerate so that nobody riots and then once its in place

to severely cut down the credits issued each year. thats right Al Gores big plan is to make you pay your

loving bankers to breath and why not? how many of us already buy water? i just wish i'd thought of it first

 

 

Please cite evidence to substantiate your claims.

 

ralis

[joeblast]

Please cite evidence to substantiate your claims.

 

ralis

"Deniers" have been asking this of alarmists for how long now? And the explanations still are not good enough, at least not to substantiate anything other than our lack of complete understanding of the matter. There is no 'tipping point,' we dont have to act IMMEDIATELY, nor do we need to label CO2 as a pollutant. If relevant entities were genuinely interested in "CLEAN" technology, they'd have been dumping tons of money into fusion research, because wind and solar isnt going to be able to meet any substantial percentage of the world's energy needs.

 

So what evidence were you looking for - that there is an underhanded, ripoff-the-world-economy "carbon tax trade/credit" scheme that is already in existence, that proponents are trying to mandate its implementation upon the world, or that the rest of the solar system warmed right up along with earth?

 

 

I really don't care how much of this is natural vs human-influenced. Point is, it's gettin' hot in hurrr!

Ok, but are you prepared to advocate spending trillions for little to no perceived effect? (and I'm not talking stimulus here ) Climate variability is a fact of life. We're a looooong time away from understanding how the whole mechanism runs, much less effectively be able to do anything about it...

 

 

 

Weather and Climate: Noise and Timescales

Edited February 26, 2009 by joeblast

[h.uriahr]

http://mrjam.typepad.com/diary/2009/02/the...as-arrived.html

 

YM

 

HAHAHA VERY NICE YM, VERY NICE

 

The Arctice Icecap is regrowing as of late 2008.

[Baguakid]

One thing I think few people are aware of is that development causes warming.

 

Every time a house is build, land is cleared, concrete is poured. This takes away the cooling nature of Nature.

 

When I lived in California and traveled in my open air jeep from Orange county to Oceanside, I passed the Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton which has not been developed. The air there was 10 to 15 degrees cooler than Orange County or Oceanside.

 

Just keep putting up those pretty houses with the lovely lawns. Lawns with few plants. That's what does it.

 

I'm buying a house on 5 acres of Scrub Oaks, Palmettos, and pines covering the property. Most would clear it all off for a pretty lawn. I'm keeping it and will add to it with more thick vegetation. Better, cleaner air, natural qi, etc.

 

Just My opinion.

[Dreamingawake]

Please cite evidence to substantiate your claims.

 

ralis

 

which terms to you need me to google for you?

solar causes for global warming? here

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...rs-warming.html

here

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199805260...trunc_sys.shtml

or here

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/triton.html

 

scientists against global warming? try this

http://motls.blogspot.com/2008/05/31072-am...gainst-agw.html

or this

http://www.oism.org/pproject/

 

or how 'bout the polar bears?

http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/ask...rts/population/

http://newsbusters.org/node/12694

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/56861

 

or maybe the carbon credits were just too hard to find..

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/T...4125853,00.html

in fact here

http://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+cred...lient=firefox-a

read like the first 100000 articles

 

wow that took me like a whole 20 minutes. As Penn and Teller would say equal division of labor--

I'll prove global warming is a deliberate fraud with no basis in any actual facts or science promoted

to further a political and financial agenda, and teller here will steal candy from a baby

[Bum Grasshopper]

The world is coming to an end! We're doomed!

[Dreamingawake]

probably one day but try not to let it get you down

[Ya Mu]

... If relevant entities were genuinely interested in "CLEAN" technology, they'd have been dumping tons of money into fusion research, because wind and solar isnt going to be able to meet any substantial percentage of the world's energy needs.

 

Actually solar and wind technologies, as they exist today, if implemented, could totally change our energy use picture.

If only 50 % of the world's population used only solar water heating systems (not even talking yet about adding solar electric or wind), then based on the fact that the typical family use of electricity is 20-30% of there total electric uses, there would be up to a 15% reduction in electric demand for the inefficient power grid system. This would result in many tons less pollution. Power plant use of coal has resulted in most lakes and ocean mercury pollution. This is an extreme health issue.

 

Solar & wind, not coal or nuclear, could be implemented if there was an effort by our governments and education to the population. Germany, Japan, and now China have implemented strong solar programs while the USA has sat on our collective asses and done almost nothing. In the USA if we simply subsidized solar to the same tune that we subsidize oil and nuclear our power demand would be totally changed by the implementation of a reliable, FREE once it is implemented, distributed power generation system.

[Wayfarer64]

It seems pretty obvious that there have been and will be environmental changes -that is the nature of all things -and a basic part of Taoist belief systems as well... That human beings have propogated some ecological changes should be taken for granted. What the long term bad or good outcomes will be is developing...

 

The view ahead seems to indicate that a more responsible approach to our pollution - be it from domesticated bovines or industrial chimneys, is a smart move. The direction we take on these matters -matters! Why not err towards the likely good rather than argue the various degrees of falability?

 

 

That pollution is a detriment to our ecology seems pretty obvious as well- Just as smoking cigs - has obvious ill-affects on our health... But we make choices as to what pleases us rather than what is healthy for us...

 

I would rather err towards the cleaner and less intrusive developement of resources than the rampant de-spoiling of any habitate for what ever reason-& I do believe that losing the rainforests that are being cut down at an astounding rate is a very bad thing on several levels - We lose the potential knowledge of unknown plants and animals -for medical as well as commercial, and diet related uses...

 

It depletes the air-cleaning ability of any dense growth and often destroys the future use of the land due to poor use practices...

 

Where I am living now we have plowed under some of the worlds best farm land - NJ IS the Garden State!- and are building McMansions to house mostly Indian new-comers - this is a straight up Malthusian nightmare, destroying good farm land to build private housing for those who are leaving the densly populated Asian sub-continent...

 

It is just not wise land-usage IMHO-

 

love to all- Pat

[Owledge]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I did a lot of research, and if you find it confusingly complicated (not to say futile) to discuss the science of the thesis of man-made global warming... It's far easier to look at the politics. You can't trust people like Al Gore to be honest after you've heard some of the things they themselves said or looked at their general behavior.

 

It's a relatively easy method that also works for other topics, e.g. "New World Order". The people involved admit that they are working towards ruling the whole world.

 

Here's a nice one about climate science:

 

Dr. Stephen Schneider, leading greenhouse advocate, in an interview for "Discover" magagzine, Oct 1989:

To capture the public imagination, we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and little mention of any doubts one might have. Each of us has to decide the right balance between being effective, and being honest."

 

In most cases like this it's nothing but fearmongering for controlling the population. -> Divide and conquer.