Wealth & The Tao

[hyok]

Personal wealth and its effects on a person's character has been on the forefront of my mind lately. Reason being is that the older I get, the better off those in my age group are. I look around and see a lot of people who, at one point in their lives, did not care for wealth and riches but have now become very tied to their wealth, so much so that it seems as if they find their identity in their net worth as well as the things they own.

 

I know in the Christian bible, Jesus lashed out at the rich with sayings like "it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter heaven."

 

I used to think these sayings about the adverse effects of wealth on a human being were mostly exaggerated, but now that I am surrounded by people who fit into a certain income bracket, and having known them for quite a long time, it seems like these sayings are all very true! I know its difficult for people to come to grips with having excesses, but it breaks my heart at times to see how wealth can so easily turn a nice person into an a-hole.

 

What are Taoists thoughts on wealth and the negative effects it can have on a person? Are there any? Is this subject glazed upon?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Taiji Bum]

I believe that wealth reveals whats in the heart and that wealth and even power dont corrupt in and of themselves. I know some poor people who seem to make a virtue of being poor as an excuse to be poor and to feel good about themselves for doing nothing. These are the same people who would not handle wealth very good I bet.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited February 26, 2009 by DarinHamel

[goldisheavy]

I can't promise you a "taoist" opinion, but I can share what I think on the subject.

 

Excess, by its very definition, is something bad. For example, if you need to hit a nail with a force of 100 newtons and you instead whack it with a force of 100000 newtons, that's excessive. As a result, the nail will most likely break and perhaps what's under the nail will break too. If you are thirsty and you drink 1 cup of water, that's good. 2 cups are OK. But drink 30 cups and you are likely to die from water poisoning. And so on. I think you get the picture.

 

Overabundance of wealth is like being fat. When you anticipate a period of starvation, you get a little fat, so that when the period of starvation hits, you can survive. Wealth is like that too. You put away some savings, and if economic hard times hit, you can have an easier life. But there is a healthy limit beyond witch more wealth just causes problems, same as with fat. To weigh 250lbs is to be fat, but to weigh 1000lbs is to be sick and disabled. Same with wealth.

 

Some people think they are never safe enough, and just go into a perpetual wealth accumulation mode. Even if they have 2 billion net worth, they think it might not be enough, and 3 billion is definitely safer, so instead of relaxing and enjoying life, they go on to try to magnify their wealth. When your wealth is that high, there is no way you can magnify it by your own effort. You have to delegate it to others in many, many ways. Various investments are made on your behalf. Companies are executed by many people on your behalf, and so forth. And you expect a lot from all of them, so you make all their lives miserable. If the government is about to make a law you don't like, then you send people to bribe the legislators. If your company doesn't perform well, you ruthlessly demand it be "restructured" without the regard for human life or any kind of values. Thing is, once you go beyond a certain point of money, you cannot manage it on your own. So then not only do you stress yourself out, but you have to stress out everyone around you to make you happy. That's a very bad psychodynamic to engage in. Eventually the person gets used to this, and starts to think they are entitled to being served and weighed on hand and foot. Many people report to the wealthy person, and they do get used to it. It's like when you wear a watch every day for 20 years, if one day you take it off, your hand feels "naked", even though the watch is not clothing. That's the power of habit. Recently there was a billionaire in Germany who committed suicide because his wealth went from 2 billion the "mere" millions. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28522036/ For most people, having millions would be amazing. But for this guy, it was like having no money at all. He was nothing without his billions. The billions made him a person, but without billions he was just a stupid loser like the one's he probably hated all his life. That's why he couldn't stand it.

 

When you can manage your wealth without involving others and without delegation, there is no problem. But as soon as you begin delegating to others, all kinds of exploitation begins, because you inevitably must collect more from people than their true worth in order to make profit for yourself. But what's at stake is more than just the monetary worth of a person. The further down the chain of delegation the person is, the less human value they seem to have. The rich often look on the poor as worthless cogs in the machinery. They have no love, no respect and no value for the poor. And how could they be otherwise? If they valued them, they'd share, and if they shared, they'd not be so wealthy. But if you can justify to yourself that the person is poor because the person is dumb, you don't need to share and it's OK for you to abuse that person. After all, if the person was smarter, they'd become rich like you. Etc.

 

There are some rare exceptions to this, but mostly not. According to Taoism a person must retire once they reach a certain level (you can find this in Wen Tzu and probably Chuang Tzu). If you can easily retire and yet refuse to, that indicates a sickness.

 

A huge part of the problem is that some people really are poor because they are dumb. So this gives a grain of truth for the excuses that the rich often use. The best lie is the kind that's a little true.

 

The biggest problem with being poor is not so much having little money, but 2 things: humiliation and lack of a political voice. Even a seemingly innocuous thing like having to "clock in" at work, is humiliating. Reporting to managers, when managers are above you and not part of the team just like you, that's humiliating. Being asked in a rich person's office, "What have you done for me today? Why shouldn't I fire you?" That's humiliating. And so forth.

Edited February 26, 2009 by goldisheavy

[NeutralWire]

I know its difficult for people to come to grips with having excesses, but it breaks my heart at times to see how wealth can so easily turn a nice person into an a-hole.

 

That's going to happen a lot more easily now that everyone's wealth is declining. I think it's a perfectly Taoist thought that when wealth appears one can be wealthy, but when it disappears, one cannot! It's about increase and decrease. The latest Archdruid report:

 

htttp://www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com

 

... is all about that. The key is, money is not wealth. The richer you are the harder it will be to adjust.

 

Not that you can't! It's just harder. Many look for someone or something to blame, hoarding protectively what has long since ceased to provide any safety, power, or even fun.

 

Meanwhile it will become increasingly possible to live on barter in many places, that is, if you have a skill anyone needs. Those who are on the verge of a medical career might want to consider carefully how much their chosen methods can do without electricity.

 

Neither humiliation nor voicelessness is necessarily an adjunct to poverty. In fact one can well be the boss and still not be wealthy these days. It's possible to be a great success but have no money whatsoever, depending upon a} where you live, and b} what your definition of 'success' is.

 

The secret is the internal comfort that comes from being in tune with the truth, both interior and exterior. When this is in place, one cannot lose what makes one happy. This is always what life has been trying to teach us, and what cheap oil has been effectively preventing for the non-practitioner.

 

"What man is unable to achieve through his own diligence, practice, renunciation, pain, grief, etc., will be presented to him by destiny through disappointments and vicissitudes," says Franz Bardon, and adds: "Life is a school, not an amusement park." When the oil culture is big, the wisdom is small.

 

Pretty sure Taoism teaches something of the kind, and it certainly isn't interested in making oneself stand out of the crowd -- Chuang Tzu likens that to cannibalism. 'Wisdom is exactly happiness' says Austin Osman Spare, and on that one I'm in agreement.

 

Christianity's view of camels and needles, as JMG points out, came in at a similar time in history to our own -- one of economic decline towards the end of a civilization. Funnily enough, the same syncretistic spiritual impulses appeared then as appear now also. A good, serious think will point up the simple fact that 'you cannot eat money' as the Cree say.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[Bruce]

Not Taoist - just my opinion. There's nothing wrong with wealth. It's what one does with it that matters and where their mind is while they are doing it.

 

A personal story in a nutshell: I used to be one of those 6 figure earners. By some people's standards we had wealth. We had a lot of stuff. The more stuff we got the more stuff we wanted. It was all about the stuff.

 

A huge change in lifestyle latter and some would consider us poor. It took me quite awhile to realize just how tied to that stuff I was. It wasn't the stuff though. It was how I thought of the stuff in relation to me and everyone else and their stuff. My identity, despite all the Buddhist practice, including being a renunciate at one point, was tied up in my stuff. I'm using stuff in a very broad sense here.

 

So, here I am now. Not nearly as much stuff and I'm just starting to find me. It wasn't the fault of the stuff, but not having the stuff forced me to look at me minus the stuff. Good 'ol naked me.

 

Power and wealth may corrupt, but it's not the power and wealth doing the corrupting. It's the person believing that they themselves are the power and wealth.

[NeutralWire]

Bruce, congratulations on making the downshift happen, and rediscovering the 'uncarved wood'. *applause* NW

[Bruce]

Bruce, congratulations on making the downshift happen, and rediscovering the 'uncarved wood'. *applause* NW

Thanks NW. I'm still working on it.

[gendao]

I think wealth is fine as a means to an end.

But when it becomes an end in itself, the you've lost sight of your real goals.

 

Also, I don't think wealth itself is the problem.

But moreso all the time and energy you may be spending in order to attain it - possibly at the expense of other things.

 

And I think fear of poverty and moral revulsion at wealth are both unhealthy attitudes towards it.

 

 

For me, I have a fear of poverty stemming from childhood, having grown up with basically none and having my options in life severely limited due to it. I could never get what I wanted, because I had no money. I suffered a low social status and also couldn't freely explore all my budding interests. That really sux, and I don't want to go back to that situation. OTOH, at this point, I am lacking time more than money to do what I really want. Time & energy has now become my restrictive bottleneck - not money. So, perhaps I've kinda passed the midpoint and am actually on the other side of the fence, now.

 

 

I guess one of the keys to success in life is to identify your CURRENT BOTTLENECK, and work on opening that.

[DaoChild]

 

 

... is all about that. The key is, money is not wealth. The richer you are the harder it will be to adjust.

 

 

~NeutralWire~

 

Exactly!

 

ABUNDANCE is measured in more than just monetary wealth.

 

Hyok, the problem with monetary wealth is simple (in theory): it increases our attachment and dependence on physical objects. Everyone, even laymen, know that everything physical comes into our lives and leaves our lives easily.

 

My opinion as to why your friends are getting more attached: They see their physical health declining. Now they have aches and pains in the morning, they notice their skin getting saggier. They grow increasingly unhappy and fearful of death which seems "imminent". So, they do what anyone without a spiritual / religious view of the world does: they panic, and try to find an outlet that will save them. "Dancing in their money" is an "end-life" crisis, if you have no other idea what to do now that everything around you is crumbling.

 

From the Tao Te Ching:

 

Ch.9

 

Chase after money and security

and your heart will never unclench.

Care about people's approval

and you will be their prisoner.

 

Ch. 44

 

Fame or integrity: which is more important?

Money or happiness: which is more valuable?

Success of failure: which is more destructive?

 

If you look to others for fulfillment,

you will never truly be fulfilled.

If your happiness depends on money,

you will never be happy with yourself.

 

Be content with what you have;

rejoice in the way things are.

When you realize there is nothing lacking,

the whole world belongs to you.

 

 

Good luck, my friend.

[Bruce]

It's interesting to me at what a young age our desire for stuff begins. My 4 year old (and this really started around 3 years old) watches the kiddy channels on telly say, "I want that". It's constant! Before Christmas, and this was the first year that he really got that Christmas means "I get stuff", he said "I want that" so damn much that I finally told him it would be easier if he just told us what he didn't want.

 

I would blame it on modern telly, but I was probably the same way and I'm 52. The boy is just like me. I'm worried.

[NeutralWire]

Thanks NW. I'm still working on it.

 

Oh aren't we all... NW

[baloneyx]

I'd just like money and wealth so I don't have to worry about it. Then I can concentrate on other things I may want to do in life Though I would like some material stuff like a super computer setup, and an awesome home entertainment system, just some stuff to do when you wanna sit back and relax.

Edited February 26, 2009 by baloneyx

[Yoda]

thanks for a great thread!

 

"What man is unable to achieve through his own diligence, practice, renunciation, pain, grief, etc., will be presented to him by destiny through disappointments and vicissitudes," says Franz Bardon, and adds: "Life is a school, not an amusement park."

 

keep the Bardon quotes coming... by enjoying school we get the most out of it!

 

Chase after money and security

and your heart will never unclench.

 

That pesky quote has always haunted me in my pursuit of money and security.

 

There are lots of materially wealthy folks are very compassionate and wise. Marpa, Vimalakirti, Arjuna, and the Dalai Lama come to mind. I'm sure there have been many enlightened kings and queens too. Had people like that given away their wealth they would not have been able to fulfill their dharma.

 

Marpa's teacher, Naropa, used Marpa's tendency towards greed as part of his training and made him give away a tremendous amount of gold. Marpa thought that Naropa was just a poor beggar and probably needed the cash. Naropa just laughed at Marpa and turned the whole landscape to gold and said what need do I have for such things?

 

It's just an element of our world like gravity and stop signs, etc that can be used to one's advantage or not.

 

Yoda

[DaoChild]

Absolutely.

 

You totally can be wealthy and spiritual - it's a matter of doing this balancing act. My grandmother is extremely religious and spiritual - and her husband is a multi multi millionaire who pays for all my expenses. My mom and dad live in the one of the top 3 riches counties in the United States - but my mom still is incredibly happy and holds deep spiritual views.

 

The only problem is that it's another distraction if you have A) Too much of it or B ) Focus too much on it. This is the struggle I'm dealing with now , in fact. I have the choice when I graduate in 6 months to go into something that makes all the money I want ( and then try to find happiness ).. or find a job that makes me EXCITED to get up in the morning, and possibly have financial troubles.

 

I'm choosing the happiness route - and believe me, it's not easy for a 21 year old. It sucks that I have to make such a major decision right now - but I can, without hesitation, tell you what I WANT to be doing.

Edited February 26, 2009 by DaoChild

[Bruce]

Go with your gut DaoChild. I did for awhile, but at some point in university I veered toward the financial side. I was miserable an aweful lot of the next 23 years because of it (at work anyway). It's nice to have money. Money can provide opportunities you wouldn't have otherwise, but I would rather be doing something that made me want to get up in the morning than something that gave me a feeling of dread every Sunday morning, just thinking about the week ahead.

 

No matter what you choose you can always change, assuming you haven't gotten yourself tied to having to have the big paycheck. I think that's what happens to most of us, and once that happens breaking out is extremely hard. I can't tell you how many lawyers I've know who now hate being lawyers!

 

I had regrets for awhile, wishing I had followed my real interests, but it was just the path I chose and I wouldn't be who I am now otherwise. If I hadn't been miserable, I may have never sought out the spiritual side of life. It never occured to me until I was in my mid 30s.

 

Enough rambling from me.

[NeutralWire]

It's just an element of our world like gravity and stop signs, etc that can be used to one's advantage or not.

 

Nice.

 

NW

[DaoChild]

Thanks Bruce, I'm going to go for it and see what happens.

 

Actually, I'm going for an O.M.D. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine). While ordinarily you'd think you would be able to support yourself after 6 years post-undergrad education, it isn't as accepted in western medicine yet. Hopefully my life will be dedicated to the cause of bringing credibility to therapies and healing methods outside of Allopathic medicine.

[Bruce]

Thanks Bruce, I'm going to go for it and see what happens.

 

Actually, I'm going for an O.M.D. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine). While ordinarily you'd think you would be able to support yourself after 6 years post-undergrad education, it isn't as accepted in western medicine yet. Hopefully my life will be dedicated to the cause of bringing credibility to therapies and healing methods outside of Allopathic medicine.

 

Sounds like a noble profession. I'm sure you'll be just fine.

[NeutralWire]

Hopefully my life will be dedicated to the cause of bringing credibility to therapies and healing methods outside of Allopathic medicine.

 

You'll be joining a great band of people doing that, and incidentally, regular allopathic medicine's high energy use is going to be hamstringing it in the future to an increasing extent. The future is trad medicine all the way -- with new stuff added in.

 

Simon Martin over at CAM magazine -- http://www.cam-mag.com/news.htm -- always has something interesting.

 

NW

Edited February 26, 2009 by NeutralWire

[gendao]

Thanks Bruce, I'm going to go for it and see what happens.

 

Actually, I'm going for an O.M.D. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine). While ordinarily you'd think you would be able to support yourself after 6 years post-undergrad education, it isn't as accepted in western medicine yet. Hopefully my life will be dedicated to the cause of bringing credibility to therapies and healing methods outside of Allopathic medicine.

I know 2 people who are quite financially successful healers. Since their modality isn't supported by mainstream medicine or covered by insurance - their success and credibility boils down to their skill and actual results. And they are both VERY good.

 

As an MD, you don't really have to personally establish your cred, since your degree already does that for you. So once you step outside that box, it's all on you then. You will thrive or die by your street cred.

 

I'd love to get into healing myself. The closest TCM school was VERY expensive though, since they have small enrollments. Also, I'm not sure how much qigong they really teach. So, hopefully when my skills develop to where I can consistently get really impressive results on others, I might be able to naturally transition into it...

[goldisheavy]

There are lots of materially wealthy folks are very compassionate and wise. Marpa, Vimalakirti, Arjuna, and the Dalai Lama come to mind.

 

The difference between Vimalakirti and other rich people is this (quoting Thurman's translation of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra):

 

"His wealth was inexhaustible for the purpose of sustaining the poor and the helpless."

 

This is a huge, huge difference. Most worldly rich people would rather step on and spit on the poor. They disrespect them and denigrate them every chance they get. They treat them like tools, like resources, like sheep, and like annoying and bothersome mosquitoes, rather than the embodiments of Dharma.

 

If every rich person was like Vimalakirti, we'd not have any strife or even "employment". Everyone would be working WITH someone, rather than FOR someone. It would be a huge difference in relationships and expectations that we would all have.

 

I'm sure there have been many enlightened kings and queens too. Had people like that given away their wealth they would not have been able to fulfill their dharma.

 

There is no basis for saying that. If anything I believe it's more correct to say that these sages were enlightened despite being rich and not because of it.

 

I believe there is a similar reference in Taoism with regard to the 3 kinds of Taoist immortals, the human, the earth, and the celestial kind. It is said that the celestial immortal can even slay armies of people (in other words, commit acts that would be moral violation that would block the other 2 kinds of immortals from ascending to immortality) and still ascend to immortality. The lowest kinds of immortals cannot afford any infractions, but the celestial ones can do whatever they please, pretty much. However, my understanding is that in the case of the celestial immortal, they ascend despite those things and not because. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Marpa's teacher, Naropa, used Marpa's tendency towards greed as part of his training and made him give away a tremendous amount of gold.

 

No kidding? Of course! Give awake the fake wealth to get the real wealth.

 

The real problem with wealth in the human realm is not so much the stuff in and of itself, but how it affects the relations between people. In regions where everyone is equally poor and no one lords anything over the other, everyone tends to be happy even though they are all poor. So it's about relations and not about the stuff per se. This is what the rich consistently fail to understand. The rich say, "but the poor today are doing better than ever" -- and yea, in terms of STUFF, yes, they are (they got their cell phones after all) -- but in terms of relations, hell no! In terms of human relations today's poor are doing as bad as ever.

Edited February 27, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Yoda]

Daochild,

 

I agree with Vortex... you can make a lot of money with that degree. Also, another six years hence and our society will be even more open than it is now. We want results, not degrees. Go for it!! I've heard it said that TCM people learn to be chiropractors (sp?) as that's something all soccer moms can relate to and some insurance companies too which gets people in the door.

 

goldisheavy,

 

Imo, most people in the USA aren't very spiritual and income doesn't have anything to do with it... so I think we are saying the same thing, yes?

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[goldisheavy]

Imo, most people in the USA aren't very spiritual and income doesn't have anything to do with it... so I think we are saying the same thing, yes?

 

Master Yoda,

 

If we take some greedy and ignorant people and toss them all in a box, some will end up controlling more "stuff" and possibly others along with the stuff. So in that sense, you're right to point out that a person with the same lack of virtue can be either poor or rich.

 

However, if we take a mix of 90 percent of greedy and ignorant people and 10 percent spiritual people, and toss those in the box, what are the chances the spiritual people will be the richest ones in that box? I would say -- low to none. It's quite possible that some of the spiritual people will become moderately or even somewhat rich, but they'll never have the same material footprint as their ignorant cousins and aunts. That's because the spiritual person never makes material wealth an end goal, and further, does not like people working FOR them, and rather prefers working WITH people, and there is a huge difference. So in this sense, you are evading the real issue at best, or just plain wrong.

[NeutralWire]

the spiritual person never makes material wealth an end goal, and further, does not like people working FOR them, and rather prefers working WITH people, and there is a huge difference.

 

Glenn Morris was always a really good read on this subject. He said that he couldn't work with people he disliked and as a result he would never be rich, I think this is key. He was good also at delineating the difference between boss and leader.

 

Yoda -- the new avatar is awe-inspiring! NW

[Wayfarer64]

I have been "well off" with money and without it. I once had money to do many nice things for the people around me. These days I have little of material value, but more freedom than when I was running 3 art galleries in NYC- which offered many "perks" as well.... Life is a roller-coaster thus far...as now I am close to homeless and await the spring so I can live outside with little fear of the elements... and that seems like a fine idea as well...

 

I wrote a book to be a companion to the I Ching a few years ago that a few Bums have bought -

 

 

http://www.lulu.com/browse/preview.php?fCID=265718

 

My web site... http://www.pdgart.com ...is being worked on these days to make it more commercialy viable... But my energies remain with my not for profit work with TRAIN -

 

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~gray/TRAINmain.htm

 

its all good even tho- I'm without funds I feel very well and quite happy. I do believe this is due to my spiritual strength rather than any sort of slacker mentality...

 

In any case I do not think wealth is a symbol of any sort of attainment other than the attainment of the materialistic stuff that is the wealth itself - energies are applied and often manifest in the direction sought - but not always - if it is not meant to be -it ain't gonna happen!-

 

love to all-Pat

Edited February 28, 2009 by Wayfarer64