Spirit Ape Posted February 27, 2009 Anyone ever has religious experiences or felt truly connected to the universe, see lights plus more during orgasm? Why do the eyes roll up and back to the 3rd eye or crown and not down? why is it a upward flow during orgasm up the spine to the brain? What would happen if it was in reverese? LOL Sorry guys pretty tired.....hahahalol Ape Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 27, 2009 Sex? I vaguely remember that ....... You know, 20 years ago I was obsessed with it. As time has gone on, sex now seems such a triviality in the scheme of things. I now think about how much time and energy I wasted on thinking about it and the pursuit of it, and all of the problems, some small and some large that it caused. It was truely a waste of time! I don't think god/enlightenment = sex, but I think I know where you're coming from. That's just good sex. Personally, I think new age tantric sex is bullshit. Yeah it's more loving and tender and that's great. Spiritual? I don't think so. It's just good sex, unless you like it some other way. Bloody hell I feel old after writing that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kim88 Posted February 27, 2009 "...why is it a upward flow during orgasm up the spine to the brain?.." It probably goes upwards as all of the endorphins etc are released in the brain, all the biological, hormonal stuff to make you want to do it again and again in order to keep the species moving. I think the religious ideas about it came later on when humans or their predecesors started to think. How does evolution fit with Taoism? The tao was before thought. I just answered my own question. And when you have an orgasm you are having a completely biological experience. Don't think too hard about it- it just is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 IMO sexual energy and expression is extremely important to health and enlightenment. It is on a par with eating and breathing as one of the major physical bodily functions, and like those others, spiritual practitioners may want to practice more healthy forms of it than the general ones -- disciplining it, deepening it, and perhaps experimenting with stopping it altogether sometimes, happens with all three of these. Based on my experiments with some fairly simple karezza ideas, the right kind of sex makes as important a difference in the quality of one's life as the right kinds of breathing, eating, or thinking. A good deal of healing takes place in sex for human beings, because the entire sexual system is designed to hold onto deep inherited energies that mostly have not been healed from the past. The bond that grows when something like this is practiced beats anything else I know for reliable happiness. It's also a reminder of how important the body is and how important love is. I have used that energy to help with various spiritual things and it has certainly been worthwhile. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist81 Posted February 27, 2009 Anyone ever has religious experiences or felt truly connected to the universe, see lights plus more during orgasm? Why do the eyes roll up and back to the 3rd eye or crown and not down? why is it a upward flow during orgasm up the spine to the brain? What would happen if it was in reverese? LOL Sorry guys pretty tired.....hahahalol Ape Yes to your first question. Sex, like most things in life, can certainly be used as a tool in your "spiritual toolbelt". Though, in something of an agreement with the poster above, this is not through the "new age tantra" stuff. It is something that comes about through deeper connection with your "higher self". There are many things in life that can be used as tools to touch the divine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 27, 2009 IMO sexual energy and expression is extremely important to health and enlightenment. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Yes, only when its reserved and cultivated, not wasted and mixed with another one's sexual energy that may just be full of deviance and impurities. Peace, Lin 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 Yes, only when its reserved and cultivated, not wasted and mixed with another one's sexual energy that may just be full of deviance and impurities. I think the mixing of sexual energy is important in terms of feeling the full range of loving feelings and being touched -- although more important for some than for others, this is a big part of the healing effect. Reservation is important from the male side IMO, but the 'deviance and impurities' are simply strands of humanity waiting to be transformed, if both are prepared. Vitally important to think about who one is doing this with of course! NW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest artform Posted February 27, 2009 IMO sexual energy and expression is extremely important to health and enlightenment. It is on a par with eating and breathing as one of the major physical bodily functions, and like those others, spiritual practitioners may want to practice more healthy forms of it than the general ones -- disciplining it, deepening it, and perhaps experimenting with stopping it altogether sometimes, happens with all three of these. Based on my experiments with some fairly simple karezza ideas, the right kind of sex makes as important a difference in the quality of one's life as the right kinds of breathing, eating, or thinking. A good deal of healing takes place in sex for human beings, because the entire sexual system is designed to hold onto deep inherited energies that mostly have not been healed from the past. The bond that grows when something like this is practiced beats anything else I know for reliable happiness. It's also a reminder of how important the body is and how important love is. I have used that energy to help with various spiritual things and it has certainly been worthwhile. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Thanks NeutralWire. Your Alexander Pope quotation and your avatar also speak well. I agree with much of your thought here. Spirit Ape, I have had the type of experiences you ask about, but believe that the key first step is separating the orgasmic response from the ejaculatory response and "rewire" to be able to focus on the orgasmic energetics and their potential, while not stimulating ejaculation. Although I have studied, and my wife and I explored dual cultivation (male/female partners) as set out by Mantak Chia many years ago and I experienced then Microcosmic Orbit, it is in the last year that we have experienced the full Soul Mating dual orbit exchange/interenergetics he describes in The Multi-Orgasmic Couple, but as a result of other practices that focus on and assist the separation of the orgasmic experience from ejaculation, without the clamping, retention, "inward ejaculation" approach. Please see Beyond Words... in my blog here at: http://www.thetaobums.com/blog/artform/index.php? Energies flow through us constantly, breathing in and out, eating and eliminating, and reproducing and passing on. We could add rising and falling through levels of body/mind life (sleeping, meditating, orgasmic transmutation and the like). Energies are a gift of our cellular co-symbionts, our mitochondria. Yesterday, I had a spontaneous 4 hour Mitochondrial Orgasm with an additional 2 hour tail down to Butt Buzz, although all orgasms are mitochondria-powered biologically. MOs are mitochondria focused/differentiated and described in the blog. thanks again and all the best all artform Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 artform you're my kind of guy! Read your link. I never practiced Chia's approach, but like you I've been 'at it' since I was very young - 4 hour non-ejac masturbation sessions at the age of 12 seemed perfectly normal to me! (*sigh* "normality"... one of humanity's least useful concepts! ) I was really glad when I saw that Chia's practice had appeared, but then many people seemed to start having some serious problems with it, and frankly, that bothered me. I don't know where that's gone now -- maybe nowhere, although Winn still teaches it doesn't he? Glenn Morris was good at this kind of thing but didn't teach, just said, try stuff out. The clamping/inward thing isn't where it's at for me either -- I agree it's all about rewiring one's response to the feelings but (I guess you would agree that) it's a very natural state for human beings, it feels much more to me like wiring back to how it should be. On the question of mitochondria that's very fascinating, not something I'd looked at before although I remember a guy called Taylor Ellwood mentioning it a couple of times. Here's to the good things in life! All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted February 27, 2009 This is a much bandied about topic here over the years... I am of the... "Sex is a natural, healthy and useful expression of our spiritual/physical/mental union and health"...School of thought. At 55 it is not as importatnt to me as it once was. And that is just part of our common human growth on many levels... Relizing the joys of our changes, even amid the sense of loss we may happen to experience through aging... That too, can/may be part of the process towards enlightenment and spiritual bliss...When we pay attention! This tenders grace and perhaps even some wisdom as we grow older... But in my experience shared sexual love is as great a spiritual act as any other! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karen Posted February 27, 2009 Just a thought here about the sexual/polaric nature of life in general ... Glad you mentioned Karezza, NW. That and Reich's work help explain the central nervous system/autonomic nervous system polarity. He says that polarity itself is a sexual function - and Steiner points out that sex goes all the way up from physical where we get the capacity for procreation, to etheric where we get the capacity for creative imagination, to astral which is creative inspiration, and then to creative intuition. It's all essentially sexual function. Reich showed how this pulsating life energy (orgone) is a flow of interpenetrating polarities at each level. We can become blocked or armored at each level and then don't have the orgonotic potency that penetrates, powers us up to the higher levels. On the physical level, the polarity is in the CNS/ANS, where the CNS activity provides a sense of satisfaction, but not deep fulfillment, because you're not intimately connected with the other - whether it's a partner or an idea that you're interacting with. So we have to activate the ANS, and that's more challenging! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Ok. Maybe I was too flippant in my answer, but there was a reason for it. To me, spiritual sex is along the lines that Lin is thinking. I'm thinking of real tantric sex, which is a bad label given what people think of nowdays. I'm referring to the highest of tantras in the vajrayana, for the most accomplished of practitioners of which there are or have been very few. All of us have felt a "union" when in love and having that session of perfect sexual love. There was a spot on the floor in a house I used to own that I considered "sacred" for one of those times. OK, minutes have just gone by as I relived that. IMO though, that's not enlightened sex. It's just love and love is an emotiion. As good as it feels I wouldn't label it enlightened or spiritual. I guess it depends on where your mind was when doing it. In the highest tantra, my understanding anyway is that the union is occuring in emptiness. It's not at all about sex, but about union with the ultimate, thus all the iconographs of Buddhist or Hindu saints in consort. I do understand where you're coming from. I just don't happen to agree, but that's ok too. Have fun. Us old married guys with kids can remember from time to time. Edited February 27, 2009 by Bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) karen -- totally agree with all the Reich/Steiner polarity stuff. Was always under the impression that this was the theory worldwide too, but I might be mistaken... certainly the cover of IIH: ... with its male and female polarities uniting to the androgyne in the lower section, and its +/- eternal orgasm on the brink of the void at the top, does imply the multiple levels and different shades and meanings of polarity. Michael Winn has talked about this on occasion, intelligently it seemed to me. Bruce -- I quite agree that there is a difference between good sex and the highest possible tantric sexuality. But the problem with your point of view, if I may say so, is that there's a great deal of stuff in between those two extremes which is very interesting. In Hermetics as well as tantra there are very high sexual applications that I know I'm not ready for, but whether it's the kind of cosmic consciousness experiences that artform linked to in his blog, or the Reichian psychic unblocking that karen referred to, there's a great deal more to sexual applications for the discerning human being than total enlightenment on the one hand and passionate emotional bonding on the other. It starts with great trust, sensitivity, and for the man I think some retention. And it does lead to experiences that are worthwhile in a healing context. This is beyond regular sex, and it's definitely not a waste of time IMO. I don't judge the 'new age tantrics', mainly because I know nothing whatsoever about them. New Agery is not monolithic so one would have to investigate each of the practitioners individually. BTW, as far as 'old married guys with kids' are concerned, if you'd've read artform's link, you would have seen that he's been married forty years and has two kids grown up and left home. Doesn't seem to stop him having 4 hour orgasms. All best wishes, ~NeutralWire~ Edited February 27, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 27, 2009 Hey NW, I agree that it's interesting, I just don't agree that it's enlightening. There would be a hell of a lot of enlightened people walking around if that were the case. Then again, I suppose it depends on ones definition of enlightening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) I agree that it's interesting, I just don't agree that it's enlightening. Well to me, anything that removes blockages in your system by healing is very valuable for enlightenment purposes -- that's a part of 'enlightenment', namely being able to deal with family history and karma, that sexual practice is very suitable for, but it's also a part that many monastic systems skip over. If you're constantly happy and fulfilled, it makes being nice to people alot easier, and that makes flowing with one's life harmoniously alot easier. If you don't live in a monastery, such things are like gold dust... look around and see how hard people are chasing it. Plus, again, if you actually read artform's stuff... never mind. NW Edited February 27, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 27, 2009 Well to me, anything that removes blockages in your system by healing is very valuable for enlightenment purposes -- that's a part of 'enlightenment', namely being able to deal with family history and karma, that sexual practice is very suitable for, but it's also a part that many monastic systems skip over. If you're constantly happy and fulfilled, it makes being nice to people alot easier, and that makes flowing with one's life harmoniously alot easier. If you don't live in a monastery, such things are like gold dust... look around and see how hard people are chasing it. NW Maybe you didn't read my first post mate. I was right up there with the best of them chasing after it, and in retrospect it did nothing to enlighten me, except maybe as to how not to live my life. Now that was just sex for sex. Sex in a loving relationship is different, but I still can't agree that it's enlightening or even part of a path to enlightenment. If it reduces stress then that's good, but one might look at the source of that stress. Fulfilling an instinct isn't enlightening. Neither is eating. If I'm reading what you're writing correctly, you're equating constant happiness with sex. That's equating happiness with something that is very impermanent. Isn't the point of this spiritual quest to find what brings real happiness - the happiness that's beyond emotional happiness or emotional love? In the end, it's just you and what's inside you. Eventually the lovers are gone, or just old. Whatcha gonna do then? Use the memories on your path? Maybe I'm reading too much into what your saying. I do agree that the monastic system takes away some things that are natural, and there are good arguements both for and against that. Having been in that system for a time, I think I can understand both. The highest tantric approach uses sex for the control of energy or that vital essence that's talked about. It isn't about "getting off", and in fact as Lin mentioned, they don't. It isn't about love or any other emotion, and it isn't about removing blockages or healing. It's just another form of meditation or qigong, albeit at the highest level, and I mean the very highest of levels. So, sorry. We can agree to disagree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Hey Bruce -- ... no problem agreeing to disagree, but let's be sure we understand each other. I was right up there with the best of them chasing after it, and in retrospect it did nothing to enlighten me, except maybe as to how not to live my life. Now that was just sex for sex. What's being talked about here is not 'sex for sex' -- if that's what you were 'chasing after', I think that's where you're off track. When people fast a great deal and watch their food intake to increase the amount of energy available for higher centres and cleanse their body of toxins, this is a rather different thing from, say, eating good food in a nice restaurant. Similarly, when people alter their habits of sexual relating and experience in the way artform and karen have been referring to, this is very different from mundane pleasurable sex. It requires discipline and it does begin to result in certain kinds of spiritual attainment. you're equating constant happiness with sex. That's equating happiness with something that is very impermanent. No, I'm equating it with freedom from emotional blockage and the experience of genuine intimacy leading to cosmic consciousness experiences. Healing on the pure personal level is important -- it's something that many folks who consider themselves enlightened could do with a bit more of. I'm very well acquainted with what's required to release emotional difficulties and in my opinion sexual energies are extremely useful. The amount of research connecting emotion, family, sexual history and so on to severe difficulties with being happy is fairly large. The highest tantric approach uses sex for the control of energy or that vital essence that's talked about. 'Talked about'...? You're right that at the highest levels there is no thought of 'getting off' -- it's the same with the Hermetic practices I understand, but lacking personal experience, I won't comment further there. Practices of the kind I'm speaking of move the person towards that level of having less interest in purely physical 'getting off', as a natural flow of the human system towards liberation. This is a very valuable thing spiritually in terms of amount, refinement and usage of energy. It's why artform talked about 'rewiring'. Unless you have personal experience of that 'rewiring', perhaps it's safe to say you missed what he meant? If all sex taught you was how not to live, you were going in a different direction IMO. Exactly the same thing can happen through modification of breathing patterns, and yes, even modification of eating patterns if it's done skillfully. It can take one a long way to cleanse out the system, and cleansing out the system is very connected to spiritual achievement, in every lineage the world over. These things are also important if one wishes to increase the stock of happiness in the world, rather than continuing to pass on patterns of emotional damage. Those are questions which a monastic life obviates, thus subtly skewing the world away from happiness at ordinary ground level... one's way of life and way of using the body are fundamental in one's approach to life, and I think spiritual practice should embrace all levels, from highest to lowest. NW Edited February 27, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted February 27, 2009 If I'm reading what you're writing correctly, you're equating constant happiness with sex. That's equating happiness with something that is very impermanent. Isn't the point of this spiritual quest to find what brings real happiness - the happiness that's beyond emotional happiness or emotional love? In the end, it's just you and what's inside you. Eventually the lovers are gone, or just old. Whatcha gonna do then? Use the memories on your path? Sex and The Spirtual Quest, we could make a show out of it definately HBO material. Bruce is right that for many spiritual 'professionals' the quest for enlightenment is to go beyond the temporary. For those like myself on the householders path, I think we can enjoy cookies, nookies and other sensuals and still be on a considerable spiritual quest. I think its valid also to say there are 'professionals' who aren't focused on transcending anything, but finding the sacred in the every day, C & K would work for them too. Michael In the 'sacred in the every day' philosophy when lovers are old you still love them. When they're gone, you mourn them, cherish the memories and being filled with love, find other things to share love with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karen Posted February 27, 2009 Good stuff, NW.. would you say that IIH is the foundational work to look at? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 IIH has got nothing sexual in it at all, although it's the foundation of most things I do in meditation, energy, self-knowledge, and other spiritual skills. Did Reich recommend Karezza BTW? I always understood that he was not in that direction, although I have a great deal of respect for him. NW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Posted February 27, 2009 That's more clear NW. Me thinks I'm getting too damn Buddhist fundamentalist again! I'm trying to be more open. Btw, don't think I have anything against sex. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Bruce -- Me thinks I'm getting too damn Buddhist fundamentalist again! Well I didn't want to say so, but I thought that might be it. Decent of you to say that. I absolutely know that the highest levels are working with forces where you have to be completely over mundane emotional involvement, I'm just saying -- you can work towards that stuff using sex as a vehicle to become more disciplined about pleasure, and the pleasure is far deeper as a result -- but can't be grabbed onto, necessitating more letting go. I'm trying to be more open. Btw, don't think I have anything against sex. And btw I don't have anything against not having sex. I've spent a long period celibate to see the effect myself. And I'm quite aware that some people are better suited to different approaches. I think some teachers are hooking people in on a kind of selling of pleasure that's very dubious, but it doesn't have to be that way, it really can be legit. NW Edited February 27, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 27, 2009 Bruce -- Well I didn't want to say so, but I thought that might be it. Decent of you to say that. I absolutely know that the highest levels are working with forces where you have to be completely over mundane emotional involvement, I'm just saying -- you can work towards that stuff using sex as a vehicle to become more disciplined about pleasure, and the pleasure is far deeper as a result -- but can't be grabbed onto, necessitating more letting go. And btw I don't have anything against not having sex. I've spent a long period celibate to see the effect myself. And I'm quite aware that some people are better suited to different approaches. I think some teachers are hooking people in on a kind of selling of pleasure that's very dubious, but it doesn't have to be that way, it really can be legit. NW Its sad when one cultivates according to the proper teachings, and they are called fundamentalists, but when one teaches outside practices, they are praised as though they had great wisdom. Sad indeed. Peace, Lin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted February 27, 2009 Its sad when one cultivates according to the proper teachings, and they are called fundamentalists,but when one teaches outside practices, they are praised as though they had great wisdom. Well first off, I don't 'teach outside practices' or anything else -- I'm using this forum to pass on experiences, that's all. Secondly, no-one's praised me for my wisdom. Thirdly, no-one called Bruce a fundamentalist save himself. And fourthly, nothing in what I'm saying is against 'the proper teachings', by which I presume you mean proper Buddhist teachings, for someone who is not a Buddhist -- which I'm not. I adhere to very strong principles in what I do, and my practices are not 'outside practices' for people who follow a Hermetic path. All the best, ~NeutralWire~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 27, 2009 Well first off, I don't 'teach outside practices' or anything else -- I'm using this forum to pass on experiences, that's all. Secondly, no-one's praised me for my wisdom. Thirdly, no-one called Bruce a fundamentalist save himself. And fourthly, nothing in what I'm saying is against 'the proper teachings', by which I presume you mean proper Buddhist teachings, for someone who is not a Buddhist -- which I'm not. I adhere to very strong principles in what I do, and my practices are not 'outside practices' for people who follow a Hermetic path. All the best, ~NeutralWire~ ok Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
