God / Enlightenment = SEX

[NeutralWire]

ok

 

And BTW if you want to tell me more of your own point of view I'd still be curious.

 

This is the one subject that sometimes get out of hand, glad it seems like everyone kept their head.... so far

 

NW

[goldisheavy]

Its sad when one cultivates according to the proper teachings, and they are called fundamentalists,

 

Dear Lin, what is proper?

 

but when one teaches outside practices, they are praised as though they had great wisdom.

 

Sad indeed.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

A fundamentalist is someone who cannot step outside his own doctrine, not even for a second. It is someone who refuses to look for wisdom in any place other than a single established doctrine. It is someone who cultivates an mind that's impervious to new information if that new information does not match or does not fit well into one's pre-existing system. A fundamentalist is someone who cannot bear the thought of losing one's system.

 

You can easily be a fundamentalist who practices some odd-ball system, and at the same time, you can practice something conventionally well known, and yet not be a fundamentalist.

 

None of this saddens me as much as when this stuff spills into physical violence. It's one thing when fundies just yup-yup-yup about how great their religion or path is, but it's another when they kill you because their religion or path says it's a good thing to do. That, to me, is what's sad. But just getting into some disagreements is the spice of life. That's not sad.

 

Respect is for the ego. Kindness is for the heart.

Edited February 28, 2009 by goldisheavy

[xenolith]

CCA

[NeutralWire]

CCA

 

Centre for Corporate Accountability? NW

[Wayfarer64]

Being kind and compassionate works well with lovers and strangers.

 

Sharing deep spiritual realms is much easier with lovers than strangers- for most of us -I have surmised this through an easy course of paying attention...

 

For me, finding enlightenment may be done thru sexual and meditative activities... trying to express these awakenings is much more difficult...But if there is an inter-active god he 's probably voyeristic!

 

Our sexual drives are very strong and can be used directly or channeled to be of huge importance to our general well-being on all levels...

[tumoessence]

IIH has got nothing sexual in it at all, although it's the foundation of most things I do in meditation, energy, self-knowledge, and other spiritual skills.

 

Did Reich recommend Karezza BTW? I always understood that he was not in that direction, although I have a great deal of respect for him. NW

 

 

NW,

 

As a Bardon practitioner, deepening my beginning skills, I would be very interested in the kind of approach and or resources for what you have found valuable in sexual practice. I am enjoying your posts.

 

Aside from that, I wonder if what Bardon finds valuable in working through the astral planes which he contrasts with the Eastern ways which considers the astral to be Maya, is that we are becoming creative beings through incarnation. Training to create and dissolve. Learning to dissolve what we inattentively have created through our obsessions., and consciously creating meaning for an apparently meaningless world. Learning to heal by creating in the astral. For all that, our creations including our identity are not Real in the sense of the uncarved block but I think they do have meaning. Just some thoughts perhaps not so clearly stated, but fun to play with.

I often think of the parable of the prodigal son. I think of the prodigal son as someone who has returned to the spiritual origins having developed their fullest capacities of the microcosm. I see the son who never left the father's house as someone who is a fundamentalist non dualist who declares like Papaji, "Nothing ever happened." More speculation on my part, to be let go into silence.

Bill

[karen]

Did Reich recommend Karezza BTW? I always understood that he was not in that direction, although I have a great deal of respect for him. NW

 

Oh, do you see a discrepancy between the two?

 

I'm not sure that Reich referred to Karezza specifically. But Karezza is very much in line with his understanding of the pleasure principle as life energy moving centrifugally, in a polarity of expansion/compression, and the activation of the ANS rather than CNS being key. Reich described the 4-beat life cycle as: 1. tension, 2. charge, 3. discharge, 4. relaxation.

 

For any experience to be alive and health promoting it goes through this entire creative cycle, not getting stuck at any phase.. that's what I think Alice Bunker Stockham meant by the freedom and naturalness of sexuality that awakens us to our highest creative potential.

 

-Karen

[sahaj]

IMO sexual energy and expression is extremely important to health and enlightenment. It is on a par with eating and breathing as one of the major physical bodily functions, and like those others, spiritual practitioners may want to practice more healthy forms of it than the general ones -- disciplining it, deepening it, and perhaps experimenting with stopping it altogether sometimes, happens with all three of these.

 

Based on my experiments with some fairly simple karezza ideas, the right kind of sex makes as important a difference in the quality of one's life as the right kinds of breathing, eating, or thinking. A good deal of healing takes place in sex for human beings, because the entire sexual system is designed to hold onto deep inherited energies that mostly have not been healed from the past.

 

The bond that grows when something like this is practiced beats anything else I know for reliable happiness. It's also a reminder of how important the body is and how important love is. I have used that energy to help with various spiritual things and it has certainly been worthwhile.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

beautiful and clear!

Edited February 28, 2009 by sahaj

[NeutralWire]

tumoessence --

 

I didn't actually learn from a book as such on the sex thing. There's whole heaps of resources out there, but personally (without wanting to get into any arguments) I would stay clear of the whole Healing Tao technique. I like reading the old karezza writers but they aren't always too clear... Stockham Noyes and Lloyd are some names. A recent book I looked at which isn't bad:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Karezza-sexua...4808&sr=1-1

 

... especially on how to gradually begin retaining. I've been recommended a couple of other books recently but haven't had time to check them out. The Jack Johnston Key Sound stuff is interesting and a good foil to other things. But in general I have always done this more instinctually than by the book. I am happy to give more detailed advice, perhaps in pm, if you have any specific questions, but I don't consider myself an expert! artform is also knowledgeable.

 

As to the rest of what you said, it's interesting... I think playing with these perspectives can be fun, but at my stage of development I don't give a 'final answer'.

 

karen --

 

do you see a discrepancy between the two?

 

Personally I don't necessarily, but I've heard there are many who do. If you're talking about '1. tension, 2. charge, 3. discharge, 4. relaxation.', it's hard to avoid the fact that Karezza involves lessening the (physical) discharge or stopping it altogether for long periods, something which I simply don't know if Reich thought about. So in my mind I haven't really put them together.

 

sahaj -- thankyou!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[tumoessence]

As to the rest of what you said, it's interesting... I think playing with these perspectives can be fun, but at my stage of development I don't give a 'final answer'.

 

I am with you on that. I don't like finality. Especially on what is "real"

Thanks for the book recommendation. It looks good.

 

Will do on the pm

Bill

[karen]

Re. Karezza I would suggest a really lucid discussion (and on Reich too) is in Rudi Verspoor's The Dynamic Legacy Book Two, which is an amazingly broad treatise on the whole area of "regimen" - with the four cardinal points of regimen being nutrition, hydration, dormition and recreation/coition.

 

Personally I don't necessarily, but I've heard there are many who do. If you're talking about '1. tension, 2. charge, 3. discharge, 4. relaxation.', it's hard to avoid the fact that Karezza involves lessening the (physical) discharge or stopping it altogether for long periods, something which I simply don't know if Reich thought about. So in my mind I haven't really put them together.

 

Hmm.. well, my sense is that stopping the discharge, if done properly, is really just redirecting the usual CNS expression to get the energy to switch over to the ANS expression.. in the Dynamic Legacy he talks about the difference between CNS/friction vs. ANS/pression. It's not a hindrance of the 4-beat cycle at all, but actually an enhancement that allows a much fuller discharge and relaxation. Otherwise, with CNS activation you get only a partial discharge, and not a full relaxation so you go quickly back into the tension phase, which is why people want sex more often . Reich talked a lot about climax vs orgasm in that respect, and the difference in skin tone as an observable effect.

 

Karen

Edited March 1, 2009 by karen

[tumoessence]

http://www.aypsite.org/T61.html

This is an interesting lesson recently from Yogani. Enjoy

Bill

[NeutralWire]

Reich talked a lot about climax vs orgasm in that respect, and the difference in skin tone as an observable effect.

 

... ah! Well you see I didn't know that. Your reading of the nervous system switch over sounds spot on to me. As I say with this aspect of things I'm instinctive and not too well-read. NW

Edited March 1, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Spectrum]

with the four cardinal points of regimen being nutrition, hydration, dormition(?) and recreation/coition.

 

Here is something interesting about cardinal points. On a flat surface this is a square. On a 3 dimensional plane it's a tetrahedron. a circle always evenly delineates all points on it's circumference sround its common center.

 

domition: celebration in the Eastern Orthodox church of the Virgin Mary's being taken up into heaven when her earthly life ended; corresponds to the Assumption in the Roman Catholic church and is also celebrated on August 15th

 

Breath the heart beat. Behind below above side saddling slide guiding.

 

It's not a hindrance of the 4-beat cycle at all...

 

sing song dance along

point line plane postulates

beat drone melody harmony

for parts nothing condensates

Edited March 1, 2009 by Spectrum

[Seth Ananda]

Ah ha! I love this subject

 

Its interesting to hear the different perspectives, here is mine:

 

Love is not an emotion, It is the feeling of the Infinite universal presence.

 

The Infinite universal presence is One.

 

Whenever we experience a degree of oneness we experience Love.

 

Love is the feeling of oneness. Feeling is diferent to emotion. Big love is not related to things and events, and it loves no one more than others and is unaffected by any of the things that affect the emotions. Big love is oneness.

 

Little love can be a Door to Big Love.

 

Sex can be Enlightening. So can Meditation. I wonder why, with so many people meditating that there are not more Enlightened people walking around? Well, i think because they are in the process of being enlightened bit bye bit, from sex and meditation.

 

Well for me Sex is a form of meditation, and a door into Union.

Its how my Kundalini was awakened and it continues to deliver me too Samadhi.

 

I personally think the sexuall Tantras of the budhists are second rate and are exploitative to the women involved. then again many of the Hindu ones are too. (there may be exceptions but so far i have not been able to find them)

 

True Tantrism has a great tradition of mutually beneficial, deeply spiritual sexual practices. And a host of other fantastic practices to take the student into the Self, or Big Love.

 

Seth Ananda

[Andrei]

with the four cardinal points of regimen being nutrition, hydration, dormition(?) and recreation/coition.

 

dormition - it means sleep

 

dormition: celebration in the Eastern Orthodox church of the Virgin Mary's being taken up into heaven when her earthly life ended; corresponds to the Assumption in the Roman Catholic church and is also celebrated on August 15th

 

It is said that Mother of Christ did not died but was asleep and its soul was taken by Christ up in heaven.

 

 

[karen]

.As I say with this aspect of things I'm instinctive and not too well-read. NW

 

Well, it's a good balance, I think! Have to stop reading sometimes and digest material in the gut-mind nether regions . Some of the great geniuses were more intuitive types (we call "sulphur" constitutions) - Hahnemann and Reich come to mind!

[NeutralWire]

For sex it may well be a good balance yes! Ultimately I think one can do one's best to look at both sides of such equations... NW

[adam mizner]

i dont think sex has anything to do with the highest tantra in vajrayana, although people would like to think it did. the deity with consort is a symbol of the union of emptiness and clarity which are the two main qualities in ati yoga or mahamudra.

 

in short i do agree with you that sex is not related to enlightenment. but it can be used in spiritual/magical matters. i have found it the most powerful way to release an electro magnetic volt into the akasha (for bardonists)

 

metta

adam

 

Ok. Maybe I was too flippant in my answer, but there was a reason for it. To me, spiritual sex is along the lines that Lin is thinking. I'm thinking of real tantric sex, which is a bad label given what people think of nowdays. I'm referring to the highest of tantras in the vajrayana, for the most accomplished of practitioners of which there are or have been very few.

 

All of us have felt a "union" when in love and having that session of perfect sexual love. There was a spot on the floor in a house I used to own that I considered "sacred" for one of those times. OK, minutes have just gone by as I relived that.

 

IMO though, that's not enlightened sex. It's just love and love is an emotiion. As good as it feels I wouldn't label it enlightened or spiritual. I guess it depends on where your mind was when doing it. In the highest tantra, my understanding anyway is that the union is occuring in emptiness. It's not at all about sex, but about union with the ultimate, thus all the iconographs of Buddhist or Hindu saints in consort.

 

I do understand where you're coming from. I just don't happen to agree, but that's ok too. Have fun. Us old married guys with kids can remember from time to time.