Why the heart is about feeling

[karen]

We've had some discussion here about Dr. Paul Pearsall's research on cellular memory being transferred to the recipient of a heart transplant (Thanks, Ian). I think Dr. Pearsall's work is fascinating and worth looking at, although material science can only speculate that the heart has a "different kind of intelligence."

 

Rudolf Steiner showed almost 100 years ago, how the organs, not only the heart, contain spiritual forces, and the heart particularly relates to the astral or soul function, and contains consciousness.

 

That's the real function of the cardiovascular system - the heart isn't just a mechanical pump, but contains these spiritual forces of consciousness. The material tissue that the organs are made of is formed out of a weaving of the spiritual forces through various ethers. So organ transplants are going to impact a person's consciousness dramaticallly.

 

The conventional view of the heart is of course that it's a mechanistic pump that activates blood flow. But actually there is a "primary blood flow" that occurs independently of the heart. A fetus has this primary blood flow even before the development of the actual heart - a pulsatory, dynamic life function. So the heart itself isn't actually what controls the flow of blood!

 

The heart acts more as a ram pump, in its function of resistance and damming up the primary blood flow. (Steiner describes this as an "astral" function, in contrast with the "etheric," fluid nature of blood flow.) The primary blood flow is like the endless flow of a river that has to be channeled; otherwise we can't make use of it. So the heart as a ram pump responds to the dynamic power of the blood flow and provides resistance, the impulse that "arrests" the flow in order to make use of its power for consciousness.

 

In that sense the heart actually "senses" the blood flow, and has more of a receptive function than the idea we have been taught that the heart itself mechanically generates all the activity.This is where we get the common sense of the heart being a feeling organ, which is usually seen as a poetic notion and not a real function, but Steiner showed that it is.

 

During the night, the heart is more in this receptive mode than during the day, which might be why the night is associated with more feeling than daytime.

[NeutralWire]

The fetal 'primary blood flow' is new to me and very intriguing.

 

Of course the feeling function of the heart was being revived by Steiner. The Egyptians and Taoists both knew about it, and the Stoics knew it also.

 

It's interesting to think of the heart sensing flow... thx for this NW

[karen]

Hmm.. the Egyptians and Taoists knowing about it seems to me like the way Hippocrates knew about the law of similars (and actually it's mentioned in the Bible), but it couldn't be used in a scientific framework until later. And the way Reich "discovered" orgone, which wasn't a new idea of course

[Apech]

Hmm.. the Egyptians and Taoists knowing about it seems to me like the way Hippocrates knew about the law of similars (and actually it's mentioned in the Bible), but it couldn't be used in a scientific framework until later. And the way Reich "discovered" orgone, which wasn't a new idea of course

 

 

...any mention of Egypt wakes me from my slumber.

 

The Egyptians knew about circulation of course and treated the heart as the center of will, character/personality and consciousness. The liver, lungs and intestines were treated with reverence and seen as vessels for various spirits.

 

I think it is interesting to think about what we mean by 'body' anyway. Its a very different thing to see a cadaver on a slab - to actually experiencing 'being' in a body. If you feel into it, instead of looking at it as an external it can reveal its energy nature to you. I feel that the organs grow themselves around our spirit in utero.

[karen]

I think it is interesting to think about what we mean by 'body' anyway. Its a very different thing to see a cadaver on a slab - to actually experiencing 'being' in a body. If you feel into it, instead of looking at it as an external it can reveal its energy nature to you. I feel that the organs grow themselves around our spirit in utero.

 

Ahhh. Yes, and I'm no scholar of Steiner, but that seems to connect with what he says about the meaning of the internal organs.. that they are literally formed out of spiritual forces, cosmic energy turned into matter.

 

He says we use those forces for growth but the process of spiritual development is to free ourselves from those foreign forces by transforming them into consciousness - a sort of digestion process of making foreign forces our own. To the extent we don't do that properly, the foreign forces become sort of dammed up and stagnant, and that's where disease develops.

 

And of course TCM knows about the consciousness of the organs, but I think it's also interesting that the Greeks had so many different words for "mind", which were actually energetic (Steiner uses the term supersensible) organs. So that we think on different levels with all these different organs. I forgot the names of them...?

[NeutralWire]

I think it is interesting to think about what we mean by 'body' anyway.

 

I agree so much! This is something that's so important to me because alot of my work is about sinking into the energy of the body in various ways, melting it so that it disappears.

 

What you said though also reminds me of what Bill Mistele said about Bardon's letter OE (equivalent to omega in Greek, of which Zosimus wrote so much around 400AD...):

 

One aspect of OE on the physical level is the ability to immerse ones consciousness completely within the life force of the physical body. Your awareness is heightened and penetrates into the physiology and vitality of the body in a way that feels completely comfortable. This form of awareness not only penetrates but also unites the different energies in the body so that their qualities and strengths are enhanced. The three previous levels dealing with overcoming separation, with systems of transformation, and with union all opposites occur right within and on the level of the physical energy of the body.

 

... kind of addresses karen's ideas also. I find his whole essay on that very interesting:

 

http://shell.lava.net/~pagios/oe.htm

 

... this is far above my level but does inspire me to continue with the ol' Hermetics.

 

I think it's also interesting that the Greeks had so many different words for "mind", which were actually energetic (Steiner uses the term supersensible) organs. So that we think on different levels with all these different organs. I forgot the names of them...?

 

There are many, and also, it depends which Greeks; not sure what Steiner was speaking of specifically. The Stoics (who were closest to a Taoist-style view) actually did have the organs as individual centres of consciousness. With the philosophical terms for mind probably the most important is nous, and you have also daimon meaning the genius or higher self in our time. Not sure what other ones in particular. Also not sure whether they realized that all the minds are also bodies, which the Egyptians definitely did know.

 

Best NW

[karen]

Oooh, that quote from Bill Mistele.. i see that as the descent of the Logos, the real purpose of incarnation - to incarnate spirit into matter, and liberate the "man in the trap," yes?

 

There are many, and also, it depends which Greeks; not sure what Steiner was speaking of specifically.

 

Not sure either . But your mention of daimon.. that's what I was looking for, thanks! That's the root of dynamis, the basis of the Dynamic system. The common sense of the word "dynamic" is an abstraction, but when we talk about dynamic remedies it's with this real connection to the dynamis, the genius, the genie in the bottle . I love it!

 

Karen

[NeutralWire]

Oooh, that quote from Bill Mistele.. i see that as the descent of the Logos, the real purpose of incarnation - to incarnate spirit into matter, and liberate the "man in the trap," yes?

 

It certainly sounds like it... Bardon refers to mastery of this letter (which is the final one in his system, the 'omega') as conferring a perfect understanding of alchemy which I would guess includes a perfect spiritualization of matter. I have to stress I have only got other people's descriptions of this to go on though! Mistele's description is very good however! NW

 

 

 

EDIT: Other terms for minds include logos of course, which in the Hermetica is often used for reasoning mind in humans, and psyche and pneuma for the levels of soul and energy. These are all related to the fairly standard nested system of bodies/minds that you find pretty much everywhere, but of course they all have different terminologies, in the West just as in the East. Every new book one finds, especially if it's by an interesting author, one has to learn a new set of terms!

 

Dynamis is a Greek word meaning activity or energy... don't think it's related to daimon but the latter is certainly an interesting word. It's where we get 'demon', which like 'djinn' has a negative connotation but does not refer to something necessarily negative -- there are positive ones and negative ones, and all are necessary. They are the consciousnesses that manifest divine will.

 

In his book on Evocation Bardon chose to use the word 'genius', which has a far nicer sound to our modern ear, but which I'm pretty certain is cognate with djinn -- hence the 'genie in the bottle'. But the word demon could just as well be used. As Bardon says, these entities are responsible for all the characteristic energetic movements in the human soul, so the old image of good and evil spiritual entities 'warring for the human soul' is not without a certain amount of truth; self-knowledge being the answer as ever.

 

The point of view that some hold would have a genius or a demon in each major organ or organ system of the human body -- Michael Winn insists there are several -- and that is what apepch7 is saying. I'm not wise about these things. I keep meaning to check what the Stoic system about the organs was but never get around to it.

 

On a slightly different note, the knowledge that the organs have consciousness(es) is common in China but can have some interesting results. During the worst period of the cultural revolution, people would sometimes not only kill the 'bourgeois counter-revolutionary' authority figures they were instructed to 'struggle against' -- schoolteachers or whoever -- but would also eat their organs. This still happens occasionally!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited February 28, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Apech]

[NeutralWire]

The genie in a bottle image is clearly resonant with the idea of the Canopic Jar

 

*strikes forehead with palm* -- missed that one!

 

Many ways to actually put a spirit in a bottle of course, doesn't have to be a body spirit. Not only the statues in the British Museum that talk -- Glenn Morris found a couple of Japanese swords that retained their personalities and not ones to be trifled with either. Also owned a sword that had a bitchy spirit in it, used to cut him until he kept it closer to his bed than another sword. He called it 'Lydia', heh that man was a character.

 

All the stories of talking magic mirrors are memories of Bardon/Mickaharic-style fluid condensered magic mirrors, with added spirits and therefore personality. I have a feeling bottle-genies relates to all this as well... You can find the spirit or you can create one. The creation is an artistic act and as an arty type that really resonates with the heart-creation idea.

 

But the mind boggles at the idea of a culture that regularly bottles its organ spirits at death, really does... my mind anyhow. More on that?

 

Want to reread the Arabian nights at some stage, such a great set of tales. Want to read the Argonautica and the Ancient Books of Wales first, so perhaps it will be number 3 on the list.

 

Definitely agree re the multiple minds, and what's more (although I don't know of any that have thought of it in terms of organs yet) every single modern hypnotherapist will agree with you, esp. if influenced by Erickson. 'The unconscious' is known to be multiple in their view.

 

Yes that initial division is beautiful and this to me:

 

the creator (Khepera) had no place to stand so he 'stood' in his own heart in order to create

 

... even more so and very suggestive, stunning. Keeping in mind karen's notion of the heart as feeling, it could be said to shape the flow of blood as Khepera shaped the matter of the universe.

 

Rather makes a nonsense of the old Healing Tao correspondences which had Mars for the heart! dear o dear.

 

Keep coming out with those quotes if you can, it's such a beautiful literature and I know it so little.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[karen]

Re. the dynamis, on second thought I'm not clear on the connection with the word daimon, and will have to look into that. But the concept of the dynamis as the executor of the life force is in keeping with the sense of daimon as a spirit-like essence...

 

In terms of disease, Hahnemann identified "inimical potences" or daimons that are the essence of disease. They're inimical because they're agents of the "dark" forces (Steiner's "archons" - Lucifer and Ahriman), although not "negative" in any judgmental sense. They're just resistances.

 

Hahnemann introduced yet another term, wesen, which is the expression of the dynamis, the animating essence of a thing, and that's also been referred to as the "genius" of a thing. So each living being has its own particular wesen or essence - and then the extended meaning of "living" would be anything that is dynamic (has a unique wesen), including an idea - anything that has substance, even non-material substance (the substance of the idea).

 

The disease wesen is the essence of it that penetrates the human wesen to produce (or more accurately "engender" = sexual act) a disease in the person. (This gets into what I'm writing about for the private practice forum when it's set up!)

 

Ok, now my thoughts on this aren't as organized as I'd like.. but something to add to the meaning of "body" such as "body of knowledge" or "body politic".. I think this is the supersensible essence of it - in other words, "the body" usually refers to the flesh and blood physical body but also has a supersensible aspect, just as the etheric and astral "bodies" are supersensible.

 

The flesh-and-blood physical body is essentially dead, in that of itself it has no enlivening function except that the spirit-like human wesen animates it.. the human wesen being dynamic, not material. (No wonder material science misses a lot by studying cadavers!)

 

Here is a note from a lecture by Rudi Verspoor that says it better! -

 

The physical isn't just flesh and blood, not just material, but the creation of a form, a crucible, holding form that captures the fluidity of the radial forces [from the nether, earth pole] through the power of the spherical forces [from the upper, spirit pole] to generate and precipiate out a conclusion. Without that, there would be no earth, no form, just endless flow. So the more we're incarnated into the earth, the physical body, the more conscious we become, the more aware we are, sense of individuality, otherwise we're just part of an endless flow.

 

And about the coordinating principle, the Logos, that's my understanding too.. that it's the rational order of Truth in the universe, or spiritual reasoning, that incarnates into the various supersensible bodies to take command of the cosmic forces contained there. The Logos has to be grounded in the Dynamis. (that grounded type being Reich's "genital character type.")

 

-Karen

[NeutralWire]

All the genital dynamis stuff makes sense, esp considering what I recall from my Glenn days. Agree also on the 'living matrix' of the body, in fact they say in Kabbalah that's what earth/Malkuth is -- the physical part is a little extra on top. But of course it can be spiritualized. The livingness must be invested in it, that's where the alchemy comes in.... but I can't speak of it with any experience myself.

 

There's any number of ways to divide this stuff up. What interests me is in astral projecting there is a similar 'ground base' of the physical reality outside ourselves (which Robert Bruce calls the 'real time zone') and it's of particular importance to make sure it corresponds with actual reality.

 

I like this conversation because it keeps throwing up the most lovely coincidences! When you said this:

 

Hahnemann introduced yet another term, wesen, which is the expression of the dynamis, the animating essence of a thing, and that's also been referred to as the "genius" of a thing. So each living being has its own particular wesen or essence - and then the extended meaning of "living" would be anything that is dynamic (has a unique wesen), including an idea - anything that has substance, even non-material substance (the substance of the idea).

 

... I was instantly reminded of something I'd read not an hour previously:

 

That the Poetic Genius is

the true Man, and that

the body or outward form

of Man is derived from the

Poetic Genius. Likewise

that the forms of all things

are derived from their

Genius,which by the

Ancients was call'd an

Angel & Spirit & Demon.

 

... William Blake. Which wraps up everything we're saying rather nicely!

 

In Bardon's practice there is a way to empower ideas so that they can do work, he calls them elementals, an overworked word.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited February 28, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Apech]

 

 

Ok, now my thoughts on this aren't as organized as I'd like.. but something to add to the meaning of "body" such as "body of knowledge" or "body politic".. I think this is the supersensible essence of it - in other words, "the body" usually refers to the flesh and blood physical body but also has a supersensible aspect, just as the etheric and astral "bodies" are supersensible.

 

The flesh-and-blood physical body is essentially dead, in that of itself it has no enlivening function except that the spirit-like human wesen animates it.. the human wesen being dynamic, not material. (No wonder material science misses a lot by studying cadavers!)

 

Here is a note from a lecture by Rudi Verspoor that says it better! -

And about the coordinating principle, the Logos, that's my understanding too.. that it's the rational order of Truth in the universe, or spiritual reasoning, that incarnates into the various supersensible bodies to take command of the cosmic forces contained there. The Logos has to be grounded in the Dynamis. (that grounded type being Reich's "genital character type.")

 

-Karen

 

 

Totally agree with this - and it is the organization which is the key - what makes things organic. I think that Teilhard de Chardin was good on this and its link to evolution. That which organizes matter is spirit/logos to put it simply.

 

I understand what you mean by the flesh+blood body but I would give this reservation that even matter is not dead (alchemicaly speaking ) and the physical body is part of the animation. On death the spirit gradually withdraws leaving the components which it gathered about it to slowly fall apart. Death is separation IMO. Or perhaps the withdrawal from the field of action. But the components of the body themselves - like Calcium and Carbon still operate in their own 'living' way.

 

The Logos has to be grounded in the Dynamis = word made flesh. We are all Jesus in our own little ways .

 

 

 

 

That the Poetic Genius is

the true Man, and that

the body or outward form

of Man is derived from the

Poetic Genius. Likewise

that the forms of all things

are derived from their

Genius,which by the

Ancients was call'd an

Angel & Spirit & Demon.

 

... William Blake. Which wraps up everything we're saying rather nicely!

 

In Bardon's practice there is a way to empower ideas so that they can do work, he calls them elementals, an overworked word.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

 

Nice to read a bit of Blake! and so apropos.

 

A.

[karen]

That the Poetic Genius is

the true Man, and that

the body or outward form

of Man is derived from the

Poetic Genius. Likewise

that the forms of all things

are derived from their

Genius,which by the

Ancients was call'd an

Angel & Spirit & Demon.

 

A lovely poem for sure, and lovely creative process with all these vibrant associations! And I don't use the word "lovely" lightly!

[NeutralWire]

How dare you both practically force me to buy this book which I hadn't in any way had my eye on for ages:

 

http://www.amazon.com/William-Blake-Comple...3056&sr=1-2

[karen]

I understand what you mean by the flesh+blood body but I would give this reservation that even matter is not dead (alchemicaly speaking ) and the physical body is part of the animation. On death the spirit gradually withdraws leaving the components which it gathered about it to slowly fall apart. Death is separation IMO. Or perhaps the withdrawal from the field of action. But the components of the body themselves - like Calcium and Carbon still operate in their own 'living' way.

 

Oooh, okay now! How about, death is just the polar opposite of life, not really devoid of life, just as yin and yang are inseparable. There are polarities within polarities, and relative relationships, so that we can say that the astral is more the death-like impulse relative to the etheric life-like impulse, but these are just relative positions that the intellect would love to line up and have them stay that way ;-). But the more flowing, etheric thinking flows with the relationships.

 

The Logos has to be grounded in the Dynamis = word made flesh. We are all Jesus in our own little ways .

 

Beautiful. I would call it the Christ rather than Jesus, but not to detract from the essence of what you said!

 

Karen

 

 

 

How dare you both practically force me to buy this book which I hadn't in any way had my eye on for ages:

 

Same way you're forcing me to use my Barnes&Noble gift card that I wasn't just thinking about a few hours ago!

[NeutralWire]

Quoting myself above:

 

Many ways to actually put a spirit in a bottle of course, doesn't have to be a body spirit. Not only the statues in the British Museum that talk -- Glenn Morris found a couple of Japanese swords that retained their personalities and not ones to be trifled with either. Also owned a sword that had a bitchy spirit in it, used to cut him until he kept it closer to his bed than another sword. He called it 'Lydia', heh that man was a character.

 

... and heeeeeeere's Lydia:

 

 

... Glenn's passing the sword onto Rob Williams, who's continued his stuff, and who seems to be the modern head of the KAP thing that is based his methods, and which quite a few on this site are studying.

 

For those who want a short story about a 'genie in a bottle', here's Glenn on the subject of this particular weapon:

 

Every time I tried to sharpen it or clean it up, I'd get cut -- once to the bone on my left thumb knuckle. I read a biography of Tesshu (one of the last great samurai swordsmen to achieve enlightenment) and decided to try running energy into the blade as well as meditating with it in my lap. One night as I was meditating the sword became very cold and a woman's voice spoke to me saying, "You keep that ninja to (short straight-bladed sword favored by boat warriors) beside your bed instead of me. How can you be such a fool? Don't you know I deserve better treatment than this?!"

 

I got up, moved the to out of the bedroom, and put her beside my bed. She has been light and easy to handle ever since. I haven't been cut since.

[...]

 

The sword sometimes seems to move about me on her own when I do sword drills as a form of compassionate compensation. I don't have the faintest idea how a swordmaker trapped a female spirit in a sword three hundred years ago.

 

The Bardon methods for doing similar things always use fluid condensers. They come from the Egyptian and Greek lineages, and in their day, the Greeks really knew their stuff on such things. They were by no means second fiddle to the Egyptians, but they lost their knowledge sooner for some reason. I must write a little article on Greek sacred statuary! It's incredibly interesting and for the Bardonist quite inspiring.

 

That brings this thread full circle in another way for me BTW, because Glenn was quite a fan of William Blake.

 

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited March 1, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Desert Eagle]

good thread with a lot of good quotes:

 

Thinking with your heart

 

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread484171/pg1

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

That's the real function of the cardiovascular system - the heart isn't just a mechanical pump, but contains these spiritual forces of consciousness. The material tissue that the organs are made of is formed out of a weaving of the spiritual forces through various ethers. So organ transplants are going to impact a person's consciousness dramatically.

 

After my mother received her liver transplant, her personalty changed drastically. She became more happy and less angry, more academic and motivated, her taste in food changed completely, and she dropped a bunch of her old hobbies and became more physically active. Several of the foods that she started craving afterward, she had not even previously liked, such as fried chicken and chocolate.

[longrhythm]

I come back to read this every couple of months. Every time I do I feel my heart clearly. I suddenly understand what it means to feel the heart open. The heart is open between beats- the thump is the closing of the dam. And my God these words just beautifully encapsulate that- Thank you so much for this.

 

 

Brian

 

We've had some discussion here about Dr. Paul Pearsall's research on cellular memory being transferred to the recipient of a heart transplant (Thanks, Ian). I think Dr. Pearsall's work is fascinating and worth looking at, although material science can only speculate that the heart has a "different kind of intelligence."

 

Rudolf Steiner showed almost 100 years ago, how the organs, not only the heart, contain spiritual forces, and the heart particularly relates to the astral or soul function, and contains consciousness.

 

That's the real function of the cardiovascular system - the heart isn't just a mechanical pump, but contains these spiritual forces of consciousness. The material tissue that the organs are made of is formed out of a weaving of the spiritual forces through various ethers. So organ transplants are going to impact a person's consciousness dramaticallly.

 

The conventional view of the heart is of course that it's a mechanistic pump that activates blood flow. But actually there is a "primary blood flow" that occurs independently of the heart. A fetus has this primary blood flow even before the development of the actual heart - a pulsatory, dynamic life function. So the heart itself isn't actually what controls the flow of blood!

 

The heart acts more as a ram pump, in its function of resistance and damming up the primary blood flow. (Steiner describes this as an "astral" function, in contrast with the "etheric," fluid nature of blood flow.) The primary blood flow is like the endless flow of a river that has to be channeled; otherwise we can't make use of it. So the heart as a ram pump responds to the dynamic power of the blood flow and provides resistance, the impulse that "arrests" the flow in order to make use of its power for consciousness.

 

In that sense the heart actually "senses" the blood flow, and has more of a receptive function than the idea we have been taught that the heart itself mechanically generates all the activity.This is where we get the common sense of the heart being a feeling organ, which is usually seen as a poetic notion and not a real function, but Steiner showed that it is.

 

During the night, the heart is more in this receptive mode than during the day, which might be why the night is associated with more feeling than daytime.

Edited August 1, 2009 by longrhythm