How empty is no emptiness meditation?

[stirling]

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't see what I see.
I don't hear what I hear.
That is the ultimate emptiness in meditation.

 

Quote

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." - Buddha, Bahiya Sutta

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:04 AM, Master Logray said:

It is about levels.  Relaxed mind starts to be empty.  Empty mind is empty of conscious thinking.  No mind means we no longer feel mind activities.   Then comes sleep and coma.   These are what we observed and classified.  But sometimes coma people can recall what happened during their coma.  It shows the mind is never totally empty.  

 

Thoughts as empty.  It is new to me. 

 

Prajnaparamita establishes that all phenomenon, including thoughts, are basically empty, which forms the basis for my understanding, thought I am still very much studying, learning and trying to improve.   I've not made much progress with Internal Alchemy,  just read a few books, and understand there can be many different approaches and objectives.  

 

For me, if I sit and look inwardly, I eventually find that there nothing there, there is nothing to find, no answers to be obtained.  The mind is empty, along with all of the complications that arise within it.  It is not as if the mind is blank, and empty of thinking--thoughts come and go.  It is the thoughts, and everything that makes up the mind, that are empty, including the things I see, the sounds I hear, the smells I smell etc.  The complexities of life are all mind-made and empty, and with that recognition, I can sit and relax, resolving the mental turbulence of the day, so to speak.  

 

 

[old3bob]

Free mind  is not conditioned or stuck, thus free from folly yet full of meaning ...

Edited December 26, 2023 by old3bob

[exorcist_1699]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:26 AM, Master Logray said:

 

How do you use no-mind to achieve some other objectives?   You practically lose control.  Even from an observer viewpoint, you cannot set the course for anything?

 

 

No-mind is , in fact, a stage of transition , leading us from the pseudo to the genuine . Notice that  this consciousness , attached to our drives, to our senses , to our emotions and to our reasoning , is so real and dominant that trying to disentangle from it  and reach  the super-consciousness ( I would rather call it the Cosmic Mind  ) as old3bob raised above , to most people , seems unlikely . So, we need some 'skills' of detaching from them  to  enter another totally new status or dimension.  

From human's perspective , detachment from this daily consciousness leads us to no-mind , then a further detachment from no-mind may lead us ( or awaken us )  to a much  greater Mind , no matter you call it as super-consciousness or Cosmic Mind . However ,we can also view it from a reverse perspective that  despite its seemingly lurking and popping up from our brain , that greater Mind is , in fact , the embodiment of an external Mind from the universe on us  . If  the Cosmic Mind is the moon, then people's minds can be viewed as its billions reflections on lakes, pools, springs on Earth.  However ,  methodologically,  some totally new 'skills'  which not presume ourselves being the reflections ( expressions ), separated from the origin/ core (' 體'), have to adopt ; and , they may read like these :

- "以心求心, 心將成有" ( " Making use of your minds to search for another great Mind , then hardly can it be any way of no-mind ")  <<傳 心法要>>

( for it turns out that your intention consolidates some mind(s), not eliminates it /them )

 

" 喜怒哀樂之未發謂之中 " ( " What is called  the core  is when minds and emotions just arise but not yet formed" ) <<中庸>>

 

- "當體即是, 動念即乖"  ( " At one stroke enter the core , any idea or expectation means deviation")  <<傳心法要>>

 

Assume that Dao's essence/ core is somewhere /sometime ( in future ) separated from our minds  , and we should squeeze our minds chasing after it is ,  in fact,  human's method/ way  , not Dao's..

 

 Anyway, a famous poem, written by the Daoist cum Confucian scholar , Sao Yong ('邵雍') , who lived in the Song Dynasty , tells us the relation between no-mind and the Cosmic Mind:

 

' 天心復處是無心 ' ( The Cosmic Mind comes  on us as no-mind )

 

' 心到無時無處尋 ' ( Being no-minded , to its utmost , we cannot find it anywhere  )

 

'若謂無心便無事 ' ( Meaningless you think it is  , why  )

 

'水中何故郤生金 ' ( emerged from water , something looks gold like before our eyes )

Edited January 15 by exorcist_1699

[Master Logray]

10 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

 

No-mind is , in fact, a stage of transition , leading us from the pseudo to the genuine . Notice that  this consciousness , attached to our drives, to our senses , to our emotions and to our reasoning , is so real and dominant that trying to disentangle from it  and reach  the super-consciousness ( I would rather call it the Cosmic Mind  ) as old3bob raised above , to most people , seems unlikely . So, we need some 'skills' of detachment from them  to  enter another totally new status or dimension.  

From human's perspective , detachment from this daily consciousness leads us to no-mind , then a further detachment from no-mind may lead us ( or awaken us )  to a much  greater Mind , no matter you call it as super-consciousness or Cosmic Mind . However ,we can also view it from a reverse perspective that  despite its seemingly lurking and popping up from our brain , that greater Mind , in fact , is  the embodiment of an external Mind from the universe on us  . If  the Cosmic Mind is the moon, then people's minds can be viewed as its billions reflections on lakes, pools, springs on Earth. In that case, methodologically,  some totally new 'skills'  which not presume ourselves being the reflections, separated from the origin/ core (' 體'), have to adopt ; and , they may read like these :

- "以心求心, 心將成有" ( " Making use of your minds to search for another great Mind , then hardly can it be any way of no-mind ")  <<傳 心法要>>

( It turns out your intention consolidates it, not eliminates it)

 

" 喜怒哀樂之未發謂之中 " ( " What is called  the core  is when minds and emotions just arise but not yet formed" ) <<中庸>>

 

- "當體即是, 動念即乖"  ( " At one stroke enter the core , any idea or expectation means deviation")  <<傳心法要>>

 

 Anyway, a famous poem, written by the Daoist cum Confucian scholar , Sao Yong ('邵雍') , who lived in the Song Dynasty , tells us the relation between no-mind and the Cosmic Mind:

 

' 天心復處是無心 ' ( The Cosmic Mind comes  on us as no-mind )

 

' 心到無時無處尋 ' ( Being no-minded , to its utmost , we cannot find it anywhere  )

 

'若謂無心便無事 ' ( Meaningless you think it is  , why  )

 

'水中何故郤生金 ' ( emerged from water , something looks gold like before our eyes )

 

 

If I understand correctly, you mean the "No-mind" stage can be reached and measured by, without method, without intention, without expectation of result, centre on the stage before thinking or emotion arise.   It seems quite Buddhist way to me.  And unfortunately Buddhist meditation is renowned for not effective in getting Taoist results, a bit of waiting for the gift falling from heaven (等運到)。

 

This approach is quite suitable to be attained by emptiness meditation, which you find boring.   I would rather say it is the lack of result or signpost that is disconcerting. 

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

以心求心, 心將成有

If you put your mind into your thoughts, then, your thoughts will come true.

Edited January 13 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

" 喜怒哀樂之未發謂之中 "

Happiness, angry, sorrow, and joyfulness have not being emerged, it was considered to be nothing have had happened. "中" means in the middle being neutral nothing was happening. This the classical interpretation.

Edited January 13 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Anyway, a famous poem, written by the Daoist cum Confucian scholar , Sao Yong ('邵雍') , who lived in the Song Dynasty , tells us the relation between no-mind and the Cosmic Mind:

Here is the interpretation of the poem. It is the internal practice of the Taoist religion.
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/654569512

Quote: "道教说的静是怎样的一种状态呢？可能有人误会静是无事的闲静，或者是死静（这些观念被炼养者批判很久了）。其实，静是蕴含极大活力的。邵雍有诗云：“天心复处是无心，心至无时无处寻。若谓无心便无事，水中何故却生金。”意谓无心后而得静境，但并非就了事了，而是能出水中生金——即丹家所说的静极而动，阳气发生。

笔者依据典籍所述和自身经验，对最初的入静境界作了如下的界说：
所谓的入静境界，实质是一种身心高度和谐的“虚凝”状态……入静不单是心理（神经）的感受，也有生理（机体）的效应。从心理说，虚是指去除了散乱、昏滞等烦扰后呈显的空灵清虚感受，凝是指心神安然专注，难被内外诸境干扰的定心。从生理说，虚是去除了气血躁动、结滞后的空灵清爽，凝是肌骨连绵一体（肌肉若一——既绵实坚密又协调一致）而内力贯身（持身法）的融和统一。它是一种潜含目的性、高度有序化、具有良好协调性的清明虚灵、空爽安和、浑然一体状态，在行住坐卧中都能感受到。"

 

 

Edited January 13 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

…

 

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

…

Your quotes are from a post by exorcist_1699 (not Master Logray).

 

 

Edited January 13 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@ChiDragon your quotes are from exorcist_1699 (not Master Logray).

It is the thought that counts. I had changed the quotes. Are you happy now?

[Cobie]

.

Edited January 14 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yeah. For once we agree. Yes, this quote is from the zhong1 yong1 :

喜 怒 哀 樂 之  xǐ nù āi lè zhī - Concerning all human emotions - 

未 發 谓 之 中  wèi fā wèi zhī zhōng - to not have feelings yet, call it neutrality; 

It then goes on to say:

发 而 皆 中 節 谓 之 和   fā ér jiē zhòng jié wèi zhī hé - to have feelings and always hit the mark of moral integrity, call it kindness. 

 

It should be read this way.

喜 怒 哀 樂 之未 發 ,   Happiness(喜), anger(怒), sorrow(哀), and joyfulness(樂) have not being emerged.

谓 之 中 : it was considered to be nothing have had happened.

Edited January 13 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It should be read this way …

I believe that is your understanding and opinion. I will not argue about that. I can only tell what it is, other than what it is not. Peace! (CD)  

 

 

Edited January 13 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

I believe that is your understanding and opinion. I will not argue about that. I can only tell what it is, other than what it is not. Peace! (CD) 

Yes, I understand. A Dutch speaks Chinese is always better than a native speaker.

[Cobie]

 

On 29/12/2023 at 12:19 AM, ChiDragon said:

I believe that is your understanding and opinion. I will not argue about that. I can only tell what it is, other than what it is not. Peace!

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

 

 

You just took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks! 🙏