How empty is no emptiness meditation?

[thelerner]

I'm a firm believer that a quiet mind is the essential first step in any meditative regime and that emptiness, non directed or just sitting meditation practice is the best way to get there.

 

I don't think that it is the end. Or maybe it is, but I do see a real need for a mountain of stuff and techniques inbetween.

 

When I do emptiness meditation, counting my breaths, or observing my mind, there is emptiness(except for small monkeys) but no sense of bliss or emotional content whatsoever. It gets boring.

 

I guess thats the point ofcourse. But I get the feeling I need to do some of the inner smile work, so that an echo of it lasts through the emptiness. To have something pleasant in the background.

 

Thoughts? How has your emptiness meditation evolved over the years?

 

Peace

 

Michael

[Cameron]

Bill Bodri would probably say you are not doing it right . When done correctly, the emptiness or whatever..I don't even like the term I prefer just say awareness.

 

Even Ken Cohen says emptiness meditation is really just awareness . Being aware of whatever, letting it come and go like a passing cloud, unattached.

 

When I got it right the Chi comes up on it's own. Feels like it is a "bliss trickle" as Bodri says.

 

When I do it wrong it is still pretty nice. Just peacful quiet.

 

Of course sometimes when I do it it is hell . But you have to work with those things.

[neimad]

i think that the goal of 'emptiness' meditation is actually to quieten the babbler or monkey mind.... that is to learn to think without words.

 

so you are actually still thinking, just without words. i.e. thinking with energy, at the speed of light, at a much higher level..... this is how you become multi-dimensional and begin to experience other dimensions and see through this fake reality we have all subscribed to.....

[GrandTrinity]

emptyness=fullness

[GrandTrinity]

I would agree about the dimensions. The emptyness if effortlesness, non contrived, wu chi, pure.

 

For example, the mind and body and breathing will take you to emptyness. When a thought arises, label "thought" and return to the trinity. We have to remove the armor and just let nothig flow. Getting into Lotus Pose could be a true test for emptyness. But who here can get into a lotus and be empty? And not have their knees hurt?

Anyone?

[rex]

Michael,

Prehaps you're getting caught up in meditation as technique as opposed to meditation as a way of being?

Rex

 

P.S. Would have just posted the link to this but it was down:-

 

ESSENTIAL ADVICE ON MEDITATION

 

Excerpts from Teachings by Sogyal Rinpoche

 

When you read books about meditation, or often when meditation is presented by different groups, much of the emphasis falls on the techniques. In the West, people tend to be very interested in the "technology" of meditation. However, by far the most important feature of meditation is not technique, but the way of being, the spirit, which is called the "posture", a posture which is not so much physical, but more to do with spirit or attitude.

 

It is well to recognize that when you start on a meditation practice, you are entering a totally different dimension of reality. Normally in life we put a great deal of effort into achieving things, and there is a lot of struggle involved, whereas meditation is just the opposite, it is a break from how we normally operate.

 

Meditation is simply a question of being, of melting, like a piece of butter left in the sun. It has nothing to do with whether or not you "know" anything about it, in fact, each time you practice meditation it should be fresh, as if it were happening for the very first time. You just quietly sit, your body still, your speech silent, your mind at ease, and allow thoughts to come and go, without letting them play havoc on you. If you need something to do, then watch the breathing. This is a very simple process. When you are breathing out, know that you are breathing out. When you breath in, know that you are breathing in, without supplying any kind of extra commentary or internalized mental gossip, but just identifying with the breath. That very simple process of mindfulness processes your thoughts and emotions, and then, like an old skin being shed, something is peeled off and freed.

 

Usually people tend to relax the body by concentrating on different parts. Real relaxation comes when you relax from within, for then everything else will ease itself out quite naturally.

 

When you begin to practice, you center yourself, in touch with your "soft spot", and just remain there. You need not focus on anything in particular to begin with. Just be spacious, and allow thoughts and emotions to settle. If you do so, then later, when you use a method such as watching the breath, your attention will more easily be on your breathing. There is no particular point on the breath on which you need to focus, it is simply the process of breathing. Twenty-five percent of your attention is on the breath, and seventy-five percent is relaxed. Try to actually identify with the breathing, rather than just watching it. You may choose an object, like a flower, for example, to focus upon. Sometimes you are taught to visualize a light on the forehead, or in the heart. Sometimes a sound or a mantra can be used. But at the beginning it is best to simply be spacious, like the sky. Think of yourself as the sky, holding the whole universe.

 

When you sit, let things settle and allow all your discordant self with its un-genuineness and un-naturalness to dissolve, out of that rises your real being. You experience an aspect of yourself which is more genuine and more authentic-the "real" you. As you go deeper, you begin to discover and connect with your fundamental goodness.

 

The whole point of meditation is to get used to the that aspect which you have forgotten. In Tibetan "meditation" means "getting used to". Getting used to what? to your true nature, your Buddha nature. This is why, in the highest teaching of Buddhism, Dzogchen, you are told to "rest in the nature of mind". You just quietly sit and let all thoughts and concepts dissolve. It is like when the clouds dissolve or the mist evaporates, to reveal the clear sky and the sun shining down. When everything dissolves like this, you begin to experience your true nature, to "live". Then you know it, and at that moment, you feel really good. It is unlike any other feeling of well being that you might have experienced. This is a real and genuine goodness, in which you feel a deep sense of peace, contentment and confidence about yourself.

 

It is good to meditate when you feel inspired. Early mornings can bring that inspiration, as the best moments of the mind are early in the day, when the mind is calmer and fresher (the time traditionally recommended is before dawn). It is more appropriate to sit when you are inspired, for not only is it easier then as you are in a better frame of mind for meditation, but you will also be more encouraged by the very practice that you do. This in turn will bring more confidence in the practice, and later on you will be able to practice when you are not inspired. There is no need to meditate for a long time: just remain quietly until you are a little open and able to connect with your heart essence. That is the main point.

 

After that, some integration, or meditation in action. Once your mindfulness has been awakened by your meditation, your mind is calm and your perception a little more coherent. Then, whatever you do, you are present, right there. As in the famous Zen master's saying: "When I eat, I eat; when I sleep, I sleep". Whatever you do, you are fully present in the act. Even washing dishes, if it is done one-pointedly, can be very energizing, freeing, cleansing. You are more peaceful, so you are more "you". You assume the "Universal You".

 

One of the fundamental points of the spiritual journey is to persevere along the path. Though one's meditation may be good one day and not so good the next, like changes in scenery, essentially it is not the experiences, good or bad which count so much, but rather that when you persevere, the real practice rubs off on you and comes through both good and bad. Good and bad are simply apparitions, just as there may be good or bad weather, yet the sky is always unchanging. If you persevere and have that sky like attitude of spaciousness, without being perturbed by emotions and experiences, you will develop stability and the real profoundness of meditation will take effect. You will find that gradually and almost unnoticed, your attitude begins to change. You do not hold on to things as solidly as before, or grasp at them so strongly, and though crisis will still happen, you can handle them a bit better with more humor and ease. You will even be able to laugh at difficulties a little, since there is more space between you and them, and you are freer of yourself. Things become less solid, slightly ridiculous, and you become more light-hearted.

[BobD]

ESSENTIAL ADVICE ON MEDITATION

 

Excerpts from Teachings by Sogyal Rinpoche

 

Great post, thanks rex

[hagar]

In sitting there are many pitfalls, and in another way of looking at it, there are none.

 

All that is really needed to meditate is really to try to detatch from judging. When judging ends, there is no need to reject boredom or seek bliss.

 

From a more overall perspective, judgement is the hardest thing to become aware of, because we are afraid to lose track of who is experiencing what, and why.

 

A Japanese Zen master said that his life had been one long mistake. I think this is something to integrate in the sitting practice. To actually allow the mistakes to happen, because without them we are lost. There is no room for growth without mistakes. Becoming aware of mistakes is the practice. Mistakes are our friends.

 

On an energy level, trying to "improve" the sitting is in a way absurd, because there is nothing to improve. The only thing we can do is constantly to return to a light state of being. That means becoming aware of all heavyness, and holding. At this point, things start to work out naturally. Sometimes, the best way is to start with the end, having this end in mind at the beginning. When the feeling of completion stops, start with the end again. In this way, the next sitting is always the first and the last. =)

 

When we feel bored we are not bored enough, realizing that boredom is the flipside of awareness.

 

Hope I'm not sounding like I know how to meditate. This was more intended to remind myself of the importance of it than anyone else.

 

h

[Cameron]

Reminds me of the stages of standing zen Cohen talks about . First months or years of practice are about balancing out your qi. Getting the qi to be even, flowing without too much yin or yang, excess or defficiency.

 

But the real goal is after you get your qi balanced out and get to the point where things are just very comfortable and natural. He calls this stage of practice "nothing special". At this stage your just going deeper and deeper into awareness. Cohen even got to the point where his self dissolved through qigong. He felt nature was practicing qigong through him and the entire universe was one giant Dan Tien who's center was everywhere..or something.

 

Sitting Zen probably follows the same stages but with less qi development..perhaps more shen development.

[Yoda]

I think "bliss trickle" is a good rule of thumb. Bodri also says that you should be smiling.

 

Sounds like inner smile doesn't it? I prefer feeling based navigation systems like inner smile vs. intellectual style guidance like Sogyal's. Bliss is simpler, easier, and more instinctive and harder to loose the signal.

 

-Yoda

 

If you aren't relaxed enough while sitting or standing, try lying down.

[rex]

Great post, thanks rex

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You're welcome Bob BTW Sogyal Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche

are giving Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation instruction in London next month (venue is right next to Euston Station so is really easy to find). Here's the link: Natural freedom Of Mind

[BobD]

You're welcome Bob  BTW Sogyal Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche

are giving Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation instruction in London next month (venue is right next to Euston Station so is really easy to find). Here's the link: Natural freedom Of Mind

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Cool. Doubt I'll be able to go, but I'll look into it. Cheers!

[neimad]

In Tibetan "meditation" means "getting used to". Getting used to what? to your true nature.

 

 

this is it.

this is what meditation is about and in particular 'stillness' or 'emptiness' meditation.

 

if you get rid of the words in your head, you become who you really are......

 

THE SPACE IN BETWEEN THE WORDS!

 

words exist in the brain.

 

our brain is not us.

 

the brain is a switchboard used by us to gain sensory experience of a physical dimension.

 

we are pure energy.

[sean]

Michael, since learning and regularly practicing the Sedona Method over the last several years, any of the various stillness meditations, ie: sitting, corpse, standing, etc. bring me into at least a taste of bliss within 10-15 minutes. But then I think it may just be bliss in comparison to my usual state which I'm realizing more and more is filled with high levels of anxiety and tension, whereas you seem super laid back. So maybe it's like I am wearing shoes two sizes too small 90% of the time and when I take them off in medtiation the relief from the pain feels like bliss whereas you are wearing shoes that fit decently so taking off your shoes doesn't feel so obviously pleasurable and refreshing.

[peter falk]

i find it's best not to meditate.

[spyrelx]

Michael,

 

I don't have any answers but, for what it's worth, have the exact same issues. I don't get the bliss. I'm calmer after, and generally feel good (if a bit stiff) but that's about it. I also think it's a LONELY practice, somehow. More so than the guided meditations of daoism.

 

I still have a sense that it's WORTHWHILE though, and perhaps even mandatory.

 

Rex,

 

A truly great post. Thanks.

[mbanu]

I'm a firm believer that a quiet mind is the essential first step in any meditative regime and that emptiness, non directed or just sitting meditation practice is the best way to get there.

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A quiet mind is the last step in any meditative regime, not the first. You can't collapse of exhaustion if you haven't been running all day.

 

Pure emptiness meditation is something of an advanced technique, as it can fuck up your life if you're doing it right but haven't taken the proper external precautions.

 

Things like going to work, leaving the house, paying the rent, will seem profoundly unimportant against the backdrop one encounters, once you've become in tune with it. (This can be a bad thing, if your life isn't stable.) True emptiness meditation isn't one of those things where you're going to yourself "alright, and for today, my 20 minutes of emptiness meditation!" Emptiness meditation fucks with your sense of time. Sometimes hours pass like minutes and minutes pass like hours. It can be hard to escape. When you finally snap out of it, everything seems superfluous and strange in a way I'm not good at describing.

 

It has very real benefits, but they might not outweigh the disadvantages. It depends on your situation. I'd go with peter falk in this one, almost. If emptiness meditation comes to you, don't fight it, but don't necessarily go seeking it unless you're positive it's what you need to do.

[hagar]

A quiet mind is the last step in any meditative regime, not the first. You can't collapse of exhaustion if you haven't been running all day.

 

Pure emptiness meditation is something of an advanced technique, as it can fuck up your life if you're doing it right but haven't taken the proper external precautions.

 

Things like going to work, leaving the house, paying the rent, will seem profoundly unimportant against the backdrop one encounters, once you've become in tune with it. (This can be a bad thing, if your life isn't stable.) True emptiness meditation isn't one of those things where you're going to yourself "alright, and for today, my 20 minutes of emptiness meditation!" Emptiness meditation fucks with your sense of time. Sometimes hours pass like minutes and minutes pass like hours. It can be hard to escape. When you finally snap out of it, everything seems superfluous and strange in a way I'm not good at describing.

 

It has very real benefits, but they might not outweigh the disadvantages. It depends on your situation. I'd go with peter falk in this one, almost. If emptiness meditation comes to you, don't fight it, but don't necessarily go seeking it unless you're positive it's what you need to do.

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Mbanu; I see your point, as there is no turning back when you open to the profoundity of practice. In most cases, if your life is getting fucked up by meditating, you've probably been doing it without complete dedication. That you start to see through things in this world as transitory, unreal, nihilistic or meaningless is the first pitfall of many on the path. Basically, it is called being lost in form. In it's essence, it can either lead you to a transitional stage of depression, or neurosis, and it can lead you to intensified fear of death. In all these cases, the ego is trying to regain it's lost ground, and is secretly creating an alliance with your subconcious to subtly take you away from the present moment. Which is all. That's what happened to me at some point anyway. And I keep coming back to those issues.

 

I think most daoist techniques in the west are just created to pat us on the back and feel good. Only when you are able to work out your deep blockages and imbalances, there is a point when this "feel-good" way of practicing feels lacking.

 

When we sit, we have to face our mortality, and our clinging. Which sometimes can be scary. Only when this is sorted out can the real meditation begin. And then it will feel just natural, and sometimes blissful, sometimes ordinary. But always good.

 

Also, I feel that without a guidance from a realized teacher, meditation can waste your time after a certain stage. In any case, it can never take you far by just following a book. Different people need different guidance. Some are slackers (like me) and need to face structure. Some are too structured, and need to have their world shaken time and time again. So you can say that meditation needs guidance individually suited for your unique path.

 

h

[farooq]

"In all these cases, the ego is trying to regain it's lost ground, and is secretly creating an alliance with your subconcious to subtly take you away from the present moment. Which is all"

 

Hi Hagar,

 

Very well put.

 

For me it was crucial to understand why I was drawn to these types of practices.

 

Was it to be like bruce lee? be super strong? have radiant health?

 

for the longest time i was confused.

 

Then, a breakthrough for me came:

 

After the longest time (over 32 years) i finally realized that this stuff reverses the existing natural order.

 

(the creation story is like from the void came the 1 that became 2, that became 3 that became the 10 thousand)

 

just like how when we were first conceived, the 1 egg and 1 sperm united and manifested into the trillion celled beings that we are now.

 

If you do this stuff right, you go back from 10 thousand, to 3 to 2 then to 1.

 

When you are at 1 everything just is.

 

letting go of duality renders bliss.

 

When i understood this intellectually, the variety of experiences that i would get when i raised my energy through these practices, became OK.

 

I stopped resisting because my ego finally understood that it was not real.

 

And yes for me it took being in the presence of an enlightened master (I found out a Shaman witch lived close by) for me to fully process the above .

 

But i have to admit that afterwards - like after you learn how to ride a bike, i wondered why this stuff seemed so hard when in the end it really isn't

 

And just like how you don't need to have your teacher holding your bike any more as you ride.... going deeper in meditation -solo- is all you really need.

[thelerner]

bump

 

Was looking over some old threads.   It being opposite day, I started  from the bottom up.  

This one was pretty good.  In an 18 year retrospect, I have changed the way I meditate, no longer aiming for emptiness but to open up awareness, like Cameron, Red, Hagar were pointing at.  

[stirling]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

bump

 

Was looking over some old threads.   It being opposite day, I started  from the bottom up.  

This one was pretty good.  In an 18 year retrospect, I have changed the way I meditate, no longer aiming for emptiness but to open up awareness, like Cameron, Red, Hagar were pointing at.  

 

Funny... I was all set to answer your original post then noticed the date! 

 

As both a Dzogchenpa and Zen teacher, open awareness is 100% my "thing". Where there is clean, clear, still, present awareness there is naturally emptiness that wells forth with no necessary direction or technique. In the two traditions I have trained in there IS no other practice necessary, in fact (as Dogen, father of Soto Zen says) resting in open awareness IS actualizing enlightenment. 

[dwai]

Real emptiness is simply awareness empty of “things”  

Then it becomes aware background whether there are things or not. 

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

12 hours ago, stirling said:

open awareness IS actualizing enlightenment

 

For me, being in a state where I regard mental phenomena as empty leads to such an awareness. Part and parcel so to speak. 

 

One question I have had with the term "open awareness" is what is it that one is openly aware of?  I have also seen the term "primordial awareness", which I like and kind of answers this question from some perspectives, though I may be misusing it in this context. Have also seen the term "authentic awareness" in a bonpo book, i.e. awareness of ones authentic being, which I also liked. 

 

 

[stirling]

58 minutes ago, Brad M said:

For me, being in a state where I regard mental phenomena as empty leads to such an awareness. Part and parcel so to speak. 

 

One question I have had with the term "open awareness" is what is it that one is openly aware of?  I have also seen the term "primordial awareness", which I like and kind of answers this question from some perspectives, though I may be misusing it in this context. Have also seen the term "authentic awareness" in a bonpo book, i.e. awareness of ones authentic being, which I also liked. 

 

"Open awareness" is where all unlabeled, empty phenomena are the "object", which is seen, with some pointing and experience, to be no object at all. This resting isn't a state (something that comes and goes) but can be seen to be underneath ALL experiencing all of the time. This is what is meant by "primordial". When you allow the mind to come to a halt, Rigpa/Shikantaza/Open Awareness wells up to fill the space naturally of its own accord. It is the screen on which the "ornaments of emptiness" (trees, space, buses, cats, "self", bills, wars, time, dewdrops, ad nauseaum) play across.

[old3bob]

15 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Funny... I was all set to answer your original post then noticed the date! 

 

As both a Dzogchenpa and Zen teacher, open awareness is 100% my "thing". Where there is clean, clear, still, present awareness there is naturally emptiness that wells forth with no necessary direction or technique. In the two traditions I have trained in there IS no other practice necessary, in fact (as Dogen, father of Soto Zen says) resting in open awareness IS actualizing enlightenment. 

 

umm, you have already let all know you are a this and or that teacher several times , so I'd say there is no need to keep tooting your horn along that line.