What's up with those pictures?

[goldisheavy]

Wow this really made me laugh!

 

hahaha!

 

So "GOLD IS HEAVY".....

 

You like that name too? It's one of the Taoist immortals. It's a very meaningful name. I love it.

 

When did you interact with me? Train with me? Share time with me?

 

Right here. We all interact here on this forum, don't we? You can see what I post. Everyone can see what you post. There are no secrets. Nothing is hidden.

 

And when did you see me be a "business man"?

 

When I saw you post advertisements for classes. By the way, are you offended? Is it evil to be a businessman these days? I guess what with all the bailouts and Wall Street scams, it probably is. Ooopsey daisey. Jee golly wiz. But it's not always like that. Businessmen can be honest people too, if they want to be (unfortunately many of them are of the opinion that honesty doesn't pay for the bills, the coke and the hookers).

 

Anyway, you won't see me nag you when you advertise KAP, I promise. When you post an advert, I don't reply to it with any negativity, do I? Of course not. I only responded when someone publicly thanked you in an inappropriate manner. Normally I don't care about things like that, but in a spiritual forum where topics close to my heart are often discussed, I do care. I consider this to be a sacred space and dishonesty is not easily tolerated by me here. It's especially so when it comes to things I truly care about, like freely giving of oneself. I don't want anyone to get confused about what it means to freely give.

 

What makes you an authority to judge on what I do and what I don't do and what is "strict" and what can an can not be used?

 

When the train hits you in the face, do you ask what gives it the authority to claim so much weight? Of course not. You just get splattered. Do you ask the Sun what gives it the authority to shine? Where do the birds get their authority to sing? Where do ants get authority to burrow under ground? Do they buy that land? Do birds have a singing certificate?

 

I have what is called the authority of a Lord. And if you want to know where I get it, you can come visit me and train with me. Alternatively, stay where you are and engage me in discussion right here. If you are sincerely interested in issues of authority, I welcome, I welcome your inquiry -- let's start a separate thread. It's a topic I love discussing. On the other hand, if you just want to wave your hands in an attempt to discredit me, well... what can any of us do about that?

 

Anyway, Santiago, I don't think you're a bad man or anything like that. You're just not a saint and not really a Guru in my book. Just a polite and most likely decent fellow. How is that bad? Being polite and decent is a commendable thing.

[goldisheavy]

goldisheavy, your posts sound bitter.

 

All of them? I don't think so. I am unhappy about some things, and happy about others. In any case, is being unhappy about something a sign of ignorance in your opinion? Should one control one's feelings? If you want to go in-depth about it, please start a new thread. If not, please PM me your answer, because we're getting off-topic here.

 

I hope this is just the nature of the posts, and not evidence of deeper rooted negative emotions.

 

Why do you hope so?

 

Santiago charges very little for what he offers. Very little.

 

That's fine! Like I said, I have nothing against businesses or businessmen. If you provide a great value for your customers, how is that bad? I only ask that business transactions not be confused with "freely giving". Is that really a lot to ask?

 

In ancient, agrarian societies, there may have been a place for wandering spiritual gurus, but the West is a bit different.

 

I don't buy this bullshit and I explained why not. In ancient societies many sages were not wandering, but held down jobs, just like they would in this society.

 

When you make selling spiritual wisdom your job, there is a problem though. Can you see what that problem might be? For example, how does a "for-profit" motive affect health services do you think? How is spiritual instruction similar or dissimilar when compared to health services? Have you considered these issues in depth?

 

Master Sheng Yen said that when Buddhism came to China, it had to change because there was no support system in place at the time for forest monks. So there was Zen, using daily life as its practice.

 

Wonderful. I don't suggest that anyone become a homeless wanderer, although I do see plenty of homeless people surviving just fine, if that's your cup of tea. I do think that spiritual truths should not be sold. However, if they are sold for a modest price in a way that doesn't rip anyone off, that's not too horribly bad. I won't be happy about it, but I won't be sad about it. But if someone then goes ahead and calls business transactions "freely given gifts" then I have a problem. That's over the line.

 

In the modern West, things that are given freely are often undervalued. Gurdjieff wrote a story about a man who bought hot peppers by mistake, thinking it a cooler fruit. But because he paid for it, he ate every one with sweat streaming down his face. Maybe this is food for contemplation.

 

Sure, I've been at it for a long time. I've read Gurdjieff's and Ouspensky's books too. And I've considered their contents. I mean, I didn't just mindlessly read them. I read them while being mentally and spiritually alive.

Edited March 4, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Aetherous]

Dizzy and Joe,

 

On the previous page, Cam wrote:

 

The reality is Scotty, myself and all the other people who do this practice really aren't qualified to answer these questions.

 

That's very true. We are just fellow bums, who can only give our limited perspective to eachother. When no teachers are around, we can only share what we know. I think Cameron and myself try our best to give everyone all the pieces of the puzzle that we can. The limited pieces we have. It's not our role, but at least personally I feel bad if someone is asking questions and getting no answers. And that is the case...Max doesn't post here, and Chris seems to have stopped.

 

I guess the truth of the matter is that everyone must do the practice for themselves and find their own answers. That's really all there is to it. Even Max admits that he has more to learn, and doesn't like to be called a teacher. And also, if you ask him something, you may get a "coyote" type answer that makes no sense.

 

So it sucks. The questions will go unanswered.

 

That's just the way things are. Unqualified people will try to help you out, and you'll eventually have to figure it out for yourself.

 

Could you imagine walking into a traditional Taoist temple and going up to some novice asking "What is the Tao? What is Enlightenment? I don't feel like I am sure I want to study with your Master here can you tell me about the practices you have been taught?

 

It's absurd.

 

Yes, and despite the absurity, some of us are like beginner monks revealing everything we know of. Which might not be much, but at least it's something. So the "outsiders" should take it or leave it. We are just trying to answer you with what we know...it may not be adequate, but would you prefer silence?

 

Anything beyond this is irresponsible of both the person asking the question and the one answering. I'll put myself in this camp. I answered because I felt drawn to at the time but when a student says repeatedly...

 

I don't think it's irresponsible to try and answer. As long as the questioner knows that they aren't talking to a teacher and just an honest person who practices.

[Vajrasattva]

I only responded when someone publicly thanked you in an inappropriate manner. Normally I don't care about things like that, but in a spiritual forum where topics close to my heart are often discussed, I do care. I consider this to be a sacred space and dishonesty is not easily tolerated by me here. It's especially so when it comes to things I truly care about, like freely giving of oneself. I don't want anyone to get confused about what it means to freely give.

 

Again WHO made you GOD or TAO BUMBS POLICE AUTHORITY so that you could say that a person that THANKED me was wrong and that I was dishonest? what exactly did I do that was dishonest? And what gives you the right to say that the person that thanked me did so in an In appropriate manner?

 

 

When the train hits you in the face, do you ask what gives it the authority to claim so much weight? Of course not. You just get splattered. Do you ask the Sun what gives it the authority to shine? Where do the birds get their authority to sing? Where do ants get authority to burrow under ground? Do they buy that land? Do birds have a singing certificate?

 

I have what is called the authority of a Lord. And if you want to know where I get it, you can come visit me and train with me. Alternatively, stay where you are and engage me in discussion right here. If you are sincerely interested in issues of authority, I welcome, I welcome your inquiry -- let's start a separate thread. It's a topic I love discussing. On the other hand, if you just want to wave your hands in an attempt to discredit me, well... what can any of us do about that?

 

Ok more power to you and your LORD. If he is the LORD i think he is even he responds to & gets power from the same AUTHORITY & SOURCE I do which is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH that exists (ALLAH/GOD/TAO/MULTIVERSE/UNIVERSE) : ).

 

Evidently your lord has made you the "Chosen" one : ) I am glad he has given you the power to know me so well. However i feel it may be a separate issue all together where you have been burned in the past and somehow you EQUATE that with me or my personality.

 

I am however truthfully Sorry for what ever happened to you before in the past with teacher student relationships or with Mother Son Father son relationships that has left you bitter and with a chip on shoulder.

 

Ask your LORD to show you a "mirror".

 

 

 

Anyway, Santiago, I don't think you're a bad man or anything like that. You're just not a saint and not really a Guru in my book. Just a polite and most likely decent fellow. How is that bad? Being polite and decent is a commendable thing.

 

I am not a Saint. True I am truthfully ZERO.

Am I a Guru? Depends who you ask.

 

I will say this I am truly nothing. All I have is the blessings of my Gurus, Teachers & the Grace of the Creator ALLAH/TAO/UNIVERSE/SHAKTI.

 

And yes I DO SHARE what i have and know. In a lot of instances for free and simply out of love. You wouldn't know that cause you haven't trained with me.

 

Truthfully It is not about the money with me.

 

I do not do this to get rich.

 

I do this to help and share with others what has been given to me and to preserve and pass things on.

 

Peace to you

Santiago

Edited March 4, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Stigweard]

We have to exercise caution when making claims of proof of our achievement. It is so easy to fool yourself into believing you are witnessing proof because so many of us desperately WANT to believe; we overide the basic fundamentals of practical rationality in preference of our fantastical yearnings.

 

Taoism, at least to me, is a practical and pragmatic path. It is built upon 6000+ years of emperical research and observation into the essence of life. The prime difference from the study of Tao and most western science is that subjective observation is an integral part of the equation. Infinite care must be applied here because subjective perception is open to interpretation due to the conditioned filters of the mind. This is why the foundation work of Taoist cultivation is about resolving/dissolving these filters so that we are able to see things as they truly are and not how we would either like them to be or fear them to be.

 

To the point in question, modern technology has provided us some excellent tools to aid us in our research. For example, if you are able to create visible light from your hands that can be produced in a photo then theoretically this light should be able to be detected and measured by a photographic light meter. With great care you should be able to create the correct double blind protocol in order to verify this claim.

 

Then, instead of bandying around some random photos that are easily disputed and which potentially undermines your credibility as an authority in esoterica, you would have substantiated proof of the validity of your teachings. Until then such claims officially fall under the "Thats interesting" category.

[Creation]

I am reposting this on "How to properly express gratitude." After all, it's way off topic

Edited March 4, 2009 by Creation

[Blind Owl]

But if someone then goes ahead and calls business transactions "freely given gifts" then I have a problem. That's over the line.

 

Just for the record. I found this forum because I was a non-practioner having energy problems, and needed advice or at least context, from people who played with these things by choice and had some understanding.

 

Santiago offered to help me, I accepted and I believe he did. (That is to say the symptoms subsided)

At no point did he charge me anything and at no point did he try to sell me anything, nor present me with any conditions. (He took it to PM and so he got no public glory out of it either)

 

Obviously Santiago doesnt need my defence, nor do you need my input as you have your stall clear, but I would not feel right within myself if I didnt step forward and say this.

 

That said, I will bow out.

Peace

[freeform]

Wow! we can talk can't we! - but can we listen?

 

We like answers - but why not questions?

 

 

all this talking... all this taking our talking seriously... its painful to watch (it's painful to be part of it)...

 

I remember how in my english literature class at school we systematically destroyed the magic of William Blake by breaking it down into questions that all got answered.

 

We traded the magic of Blake for a bunch of answers that promised some fulfillment but only delivered empty words.

 

Blake 'sang' of "Innocence" and of "Experience".

 

If you wish to trade in the innocence of curiosity with the experience of answers, then just remember this - you will not find satisfaction

 

 

 

 

or will you?

 

 

 

 

[Cameron]

Scott,

 

As I sit here wondering how to respond I think the first thing that comes to my mind is the limitation of the medium we are using. I think if I am going to be honest the real reason it might be "irresponsible" of us to reccommend Kunlun or not to anyone is that we don't really know them.

 

I mean, I know it seems like we do but that's not really true. We are basically reccomending a spiritual practice to strangers.

 

That wasn't the case with the original group of Taobums I sort of "nudged" to do Kunlun. For the most part we all knew each other. If we hadn't already met in person we had been speaking on the phone or on here for years.

 

What I see here on Taobums is that most likely it will grow larger. My feeling is more people will eventually become interested in these things and you may be essentially reccomending a powerful spiritual path to someone who it may or may not be appropriate for.

 

I know it's sort of a wierd thing to be concerned about. Here is my concern:We are mostly a bunch of youngsters..your in your 20's I am in my early 30's. I am going to go out on a limb and say we will probably check out other spiritual paths in our life. We are still learning and growing. Maybe not. Maybe Kunlun will literally be the end of our spiritual seeking and we will just do our Kunlun practice for many years. But I know the personality of most Taobums is to check different stuff out.

 

So..my feeling is it's best for us to have a neutral and unattached view towards all of this. And I am not saying you don't already. But a spiritual path and studying with teachers is a very profound karmic deal I think. It's not really something that should be based on other students opinions. That's why I keep repeating over and over again in my posts now to follow your inner feeling/intuition. Whatever I say is irrelevent if you keep feeling that studying with a certain teacher is not going to be a good path for you.

 

That said, I haven't seen anything posted by anyone doing Kunlun that would be called irresponsible. Actually, in my humble opinion the Kunlun practice has attracted some of the most intelligent and good hearted people on here(I am not counting myself )

 

I guess what it boils down to is though I feel strongly the Kunlun path and teachers are worth checking out for basically *anyone* I am still mostly in the space of "I don't know". Being in the space of I don't know is cool. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. And if we are going to be honest about all these questions. Is Kunlun good? Should you see Max or Jenny? Are the pictures of Max's hands glowing real? Does Jenny teach other practices besides Yi Gong and do you need it? etc etc

 

The real answer I believe-for any of us-is "I don't know".

 

That said, if your drawn to say something. That's OK to man.

 

peace,

 

Cam

Edited March 5, 2009 by Cameron

[Aetherous]

Agreed.

[Smile]

DISCAIMER: this video contain energyprojection. Open at own risc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-40EGOm6ms...feature=related

 

I wish every photo or video which projects energy could show a disclaimer first so that those of us who dont want that energy can choose to not recieve it.

Thanks. This guy has skills.

[mYTHmAKER]

Thanks. This guy has skills.

 

I don't like his energy - couldn't watch the whole thing

[thelerner]

I watched the video and certainly felt tingling around my entire hand and particularly the palm. But is it energy transmission or simpatico. Facing someone wiggling there hands do I unconsciously impeceptably wiggle mine? Maybe.

 

If he'd been wiggling his nose for 3 minutes, would I feel that? I don't know. I think I would.

 

 

Michael

[xenolith]

Well shoot, I'm ready for happy pancakes

 

Doods'a jackoff artist.

 

This is the new funniest thread isn't it?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't like his energy - couldn't watch the whole thing

 

Yeah I thought he looked kind of sketchy so I closed the vid pretty fast

[Mal]

[Guest winpro07]

in the video max demonstrates several different pathway/channel/method for transmission of blisslight and the way that bliss travels through a body after transmission received.

[sheng zhen]

sheng zhen, I don't know if you are kidding or not...

I was very sarcastic, but not really kidding. I seriously wish pictures that contain energy projection could have a disclaimer. Because even though the projector thinks he projects energy that is "healing the world" or the people watching the picture with GODS love, it really dosent. Its just maniuplating energy.

 

It dosent matter if it gives good feelings, tinglings or strange sensations. Its very very easy to send energy at a distance. But the majority of spiritual and practicing people still dont know it is real and still get amazed when they "feel something". I am often surprised to see that even people who has been practicing for decades react this way.

 

My point is, as long as the people recieving the projection hasnt asked for it, it is manipulation and a violation. And therefore highly unethical.

[Guest winpro07]

A good way to gain validation of the existence of energy is to see it

 

not through the mind

Edited March 5, 2009 by winpro07

[rain]

Thanks. This guy has skills.

 

 

THis guy has a website, says he grew up in Finnmark(says a lot), Norway...., and grew up with natural healing hands.

http://www.moxite.co.il/?categoryId=24738 >Personally I like the energy, liked what was inside those eyes. But I like temperament and crazy sense of humour mixed with stern seriosity and thats what I think I see.

Watched the video, but reflect on how I would have reacted if we did not get to se his eyes. You all talk a lot about light on bodyparts without recollecting what went through your awareness when you first saw their faces.

 

This video about testing mobile electromagnetic energy impact on human bodies I found more interesting. It makes sense.

We can try this ourselves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQyWvEeW7Y

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Spectrum]

Cameron - You don't post here anymore. I'm here to remind you of your words. Since you never took them back, but maybe you deleted them instead?

 

Scott,

 

As I sit here wondering how to respond I think the first thing that comes to my mind is the limitation of the medium we are using. I think if I am going to be honest the real reason it might be "irresponsible" of us to reccommend Kunlun or not to anyone is that we don't really know them.

 

Why don't you explain how you came to this realization in the last week Cameron? Feel free to qoute me. I don't delete my posts. Or are you going to try and call me again to "sort out your words" that your going to delete in the future?

 

I mean, I know it seems like we do but that's not really true. We are basically reccomending a spiritual practice to strangers.

 

That wasn't the case with the original group of Taobums I sort of "nudged" to do Kunlun. For the most part we all knew each other. If we hadn't already met in person we had been speaking on the phone or on here for years.

 

Is that some ... community... not a real one I hope, only online? those online ones arn't real, the words are just bots.

 

What I see here on Taobums is that most likely it will grow larger. My feeling is more people will eventually become interested in these things and you may be essentially reccomending a powerful spiritual path to someone who it may or may not be appropriate for.

 

I know it's sort of a wierd thing to be concerned about. Here is my concern:We are mostly a bunch of youngsters..your in your 20's I am in my early 30's. I am going to go out on a limb and say we will probably check out other spiritual paths in our life. We are still learning and growing. Maybe not. Maybe Kunlun will literally be the end of our spiritual seeking and we will just do our Kunlun practice for many years. But I know the personality of most Taobums is to check different stuff out.

 

So..my feeling is it's best for us to have a neutral and unattached view towards all of this. And I am not saying you don't already. But a spiritual path and studying with teachers is a very profound karmic deal I think. It's not really something that should be based on other students opinions. That's why I keep repeating over and over again in my posts now to follow your inner feeling/intuition. Whatever I say is irrelevent if you keep feeling that studying with a certain teacher is not going to be a good path for you.

 

That said, I haven't seen anything posted by anyone doing Kunlun that would be called irresponsible. Actually, in my humble opinion the Kunlun practice has attracted some of the most intelligent and good hearted people on here(I am not counting myself )

 

I guess what it boils down to is though I feel strongly the Kunlun path and teachers are worth checking out for basically *anyone* I am still mostly in the space of "I don't know". Being in the space of I don't know is cool. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. And if we are going to be honest about all these questions. Is Kunlun good? Should you see Max or Jenny? Are the pictures of Max's hands glowing real? Does Jenny teach other practices besides Yi Gong and do you need it? etc etc

 

The real answer I believe-for any of us-is "I don't know".

 

That said, if your drawn to say something. That's OK to man.

 

peace,

 

Cam

 

This might be Cams last post. He's moving tommorow.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Spectrum

[sheng zhen]

If you pick on the internal validation system you must be ready to take the consequences

 

Its a natural law: anything that dont validate the system must be eliminated.

[farmerjoe]

My point is, as long as the people recieving the projection hasnt asked for it, it is manipulation and a violation. And therefore highly unethical.

 

Agreed, because it removes choice. Joe.

[farmerjoe]

goldisheavy you distort the picture we have of Santiago on this forum beyond our recognition when you use the words 'businessman' and 'advert'. you choose those words for their slant toward profit making, and therefore your use of words is profoundly reductive toward what others experience of Santiago.

 

You don't even consider that what he has is in fact a business. I don't know enough about Santiago's story other than he is a teacher, a husband, a father, a friend and seems like a really good person, and because he has dependents and is alive then this all demands that he earns a living. Max is a businessman. He started off small teaching to small groups and disappeared because he wanted to test his students and see what they'd do with what he taught them. His friend Phillip Toledo continued to use his name to sell tapes and make a profit and when Max resurfaced refused to believe it was really him so Max was ripped off of his share of profits. This story is common knowledge. Max was unable to save this friendship and Chris Tittle began a campaign to prove that Phillip was nuts by posting one of Phillip's letters. Most people who have attended a seminar can tell you that Max is eccentric. Phillip is not nuts. He might not have been a good friend and was a shady businessman but he wasn't nuts not when you look and weigh the whole thing. So Max learned a really cool practice from Jenny Lamb and put that together with some of what his other teachers taught him and then he started teaching it to small groups. He continued learning more things and then met Chris Tittle an author and owner of his own advertising company? Chris knew what to do to take the teachings public. Max said okay to all this I'm sure so he in fact chose to become a businessman. He is now teaching on a bigger scale and touring different countries. He has certified teachers and is creating more. He has created other small business because these teachers are teaching to others and are also earning a living. There is nothing wrong with any of this. Everyone is entitled to make a living. It's just business. Max was always a businessman because he was married more than once and has a daughter I think I read somewhere? It's not a sign or measure of a bad person or teacher to be a businessman. It's not something I use to measure a good teacher or a healer. However, if it ticks someone off for me to say this, if they make too much of a fuss then I have to wonder if the person making a fuss has somehow elevated someone way to high and maybe put them on a pedestal because they don't want to associate business with spirituality. It's just life and it's just business. Simple. Santiago is a businessman, so is Max so were and are a lot of other great spiritual leaders. Take it all in and it's reasonable. Joe.

Edited March 5, 2009 by farmerjoe