What is real?

[Unconditioned]

You can make anything out of anything. Anyone that is good at debating can win any argument by finding evidence or discrediting the other sides evidence.

 

It's fruitless to me to play the game of 'let me one-up you'. Tic-Tock.

 

What's real? What's fake?

 

I don't know, but I'm aware and alive.

[goldisheavy]

As I promised, I will share what happened to me. For the record, I haven't really been convinced of anything in life except one time. That's not to say my opinion hasn't shifted. I shift my opinion from time to time as a result of discussion. But it's never the kind of "wow" shift; it is rather moderate. I have experienced some "WOW" moments, but those were not because someone proved something to me, but because I realized that something was possible whereas previously I didn't have an opinion on the matter.

 

One such WOW moment was when I read that life is a dream. The thing is, I never thought that life was not a dream. I just never thought about it, period. I just lived life without thinking what life might me. I was like on auto-pilot. I had all kinds of problems and I always dealt with all my problems in local manner using the local knowledge available. I never tried to take a larger view of my life and beliefs. I never tried to step back, until I was 20 or so. So when I read in "The Power of Dreams" that naguals thought of life as a dream, I thought, WOW!! I mean, it's not like I did not agree with it and now I agreed. But it was like I have now began to consider this for the first time in my life, and the implications were staggering and mind blowing. If life was a dream then....THEN I WAS LIVING LIFE WRONG. That was my thought. I thought, if it's a dream, then I have a lot more possibilities in life than I have ever previously imagined.

 

So the first thing I did was I learned to lucid dream. In my lucid dreams I decided to test everything for myself. That's how I am. I don't "practice" anything. Instead I explore possibilities. My practice is reflective even when I actually do things, I don't do them just to get better at doing them, but I do them to find something out about myself and about my life. I only do things to find wisdom and not to actually do a thing to get it done. The one exception to this is when I play games or just aimlessly fool around, which I think is also good to do from time to time.

 

So what do I do in my dreams? I check to see how the dreams are. I used to think that dreams were truly very different from waking experience. I used to have an extremely firm belief that there is no way anyone could ever confuse dream with reality. I don't even know why I thought that! I just did. I don't think I had any evidence to think that, because I never tested my opinion! I just thought so. So finally I couldn't "just think so" and I had to put it to the test.

 

I checked all kinds of common beliefs about dreams like "you can tell you are dreaming is the clock is wrong", or "you can tell you are dreaming if the light switches do not work or work funny", or "you can tell you are dreaming if everything looks fuzzy or rainbow-y", or "you can tell you are dreaming if you pinch yourself and feel no pain", or "you can tell you are dreaming if you can't read books" and so on and so forth. There is a quite a big list of things that either I've heard of and thought reasonable, or that I just believed on my own without any specific reason to believe them.

 

So I check all those. And what happens? Well some things seem to be true at first, but....then BAM, a dream happens it's no longer working! For example, I would look at a clock in my lucid dream to see if it's showing garbage information, and it does. OK, so it's true that clocks don't work in dreams. Then I try it the next night and BAM, the clock looks completely reasonable. I think UH OH... UH OH... that test is not reliable! Let's try pinching myself. Ok I pinch myself and I feel no pain... PHEW.. ok pinching is a reliable test of dreaming! Phew.... then BAM, couple nights later I can feel pain in my dreams too. UH OH!! Crap... pinching doesn't work. Turns out it's possible to dream of pain too. Let's try other things.

 

To make a long story short, all my tests eventually failed and I began to worry. If any of you are laughing, I hope you enjoy yourself, seriously. But it was very serious for me at the time. I thought I was losing my sanity. I thought, "What if I can't tell dreams from reality?" I mean, on one hand I like the idea of having many possibilities open, but on the other hand, I didn't realize how much attached I was to the idea that there was this solid, comfortable, unchanging place I called reality where I may suffer, but I know how it works, and I know what to expect, and it exists objectively regardless of my mind and I exist there and basically "I know what's up". So if life is a dream, then while I gain many more options in terms of manifestation, but then I seemed to be losing my comfort in solidity and objectivity.

 

All this culminated in me, one time having a totally wild experience. It happened very simply. One time I wake up. And I need to get ready for work as usual. I am taking a shower. I get dressed. I am almost ready to head out the door and then....I WAKE UP AGAIN. F****CK!!! @#$@#@@ WTF??? I was so shocked. What is this? I have to take the same shower, get dressed, etc... I did everything two times in a row and I was a little worried that I won't be able to leave for work because I might wake up one more time and have to do it all over again. Luckily I didn't wake up a 3rd time.

 

After that experience I realized there is absolute NO WAY, none, zero, nada, zilch, nie, null, no way I can tell reality from dreams or waking from dreaming or any such thing. And this came into a serious conflict with everything I had previously believed about reality and life. And it got so uncomfortable for me, that I had to, for a while, abandon all spiritual practice. The funny thing is -- I felt intuitively that I was causing all these experiences using my intent. I felt how I was creating all that, and I felt how if I didn't like it, I could stop it easily. So I stopped and my life returned to "normal".

 

I didn't know this, but it turns out I really had a strong belief in the difference between dreaming and waking reality, and while theoretically it sounded good on paper to think of life as a dream, when I actually manifested some consequences of that, I was very uncomfortable.

[sheng zhen]

Since truth and consequences never submit to our needs or feelings, they are always uncomfortable. I love that!

[forestofsouls]

gold,

 

I've had similar dream experiences. When I was more into LD, I would look at my hands. For a while, my dream hands would melt. Then, eventually, after studying my hands all that time, my dream world would create it. No melting hands.

 

When I meditate and am sleepy, I often "fall" into dreams for a few seconds. Over time, I've come to see that the dream image and the "real world image" are in essence the same. Stephen LaBerge has said that being awake is dreaming with conditions, i.e. the world. Dreaming at night is dreaming without conditions. Still dreaming, either way.

 

With one exception that I've seen: dreams lack continued sensory clarity. When awake, there is a continued, moment-to-moment level of sensory clarity that is different from dreams. I don't think you can watch the seconds tick, one at a time, for a several minutes in a dream. Either the sensory clarity will fade or the dream image will shift. This is of course my experience, and yours might vary.

 

 

 

As I promised, I will share what happened to me. For the record, I haven't really been convinced of anything in life except one time. That's not to say my opinion hasn't shifted. I shift my opinion from time to time as a result of discussion. But it's never the kind of "wow" shift; it is rather moderate. I have experienced some "WOW" moments, but those were not because someone proved something to me, but because I realized that something was possible whereas previously I didn't have an opinion on the matter.

[goldisheavy]

When awake, there is a continued, moment-to-moment level of sensory clarity that is different from dreams. I don't think you can watch the seconds tick, one at a time, for a several minutes in a dream.

 

I used to think so too. But I've had numerous dreams that became so intensely and viscerally moment-by-moment "real", that I was worried I was getting permanently stuck in another dimension. And so before I'd forget that it's just a dream, I would make myself wake up in every one of those dreams.

 

I've learned one thing -- there are no limits. None of any kind. Everything is literally possible. It all depends on mind. Every time I have let my mind loose, amazing things happen with the same certainty as a falling rock hitting the ground on Earth. Every time the limit has only been what I am willing to tolerate and not otherwise. The manifestation is limitless and always at the ready. I feel it lapping at the shore of my sanity at all times. The only limit is not the mind per se or the power to manifest, but only my willingness to accept and live with what I can instantly manifest and its consequences.

 

Now, since we are talking about mindset, there is a real problem here. The problem is that my mindset is not "just because". It represents my intent! So I can't just throw it away. It represents my values, my hopes, my fears, all my ideas and all my knowns. These are not worthless things by any means. Vice versa -- they are the most precious. And if I give them up authentically, it's not because I apply some rote technique to them. Hell no. It's because I contemplate them and I gradually and authentically realize that my values and my dreams are changing. Then the process of giving up my old mindset is effortless and authentic. There is no rote to it. No technique. It's a living heart. It's alive. It's not a robot. It's alive. It's not a machine. It's alive. My mind is alive. I am alive. There is nothing automatic in me. I have habits, but those are also living. They are not machines. What is this? This is me moving my identity further from the mechanistic and closer to the lively. This way is toward freedom, toward unconstrained life, toward the mastery of belief structures.

 

When you see a picture of a woman on the screen, the screen has no woman in it. But you feel like there is a woman there. Why? Because there is a woman IN YOUR MIND. In fact, it's all like that. There are no external objects at all. It's all just mind impressions dancing around. Solidity, materiality, can only be taken on faith. If it's not taken on faith, it can never be proven.

 

When you think you see a wise teacher, how do you know that teacher is wise? Maybe the teacher is a moron. You know it because the wisdom is always, forever, IN YOUR OWN MIND. You could never recognize wisdom in another person if you didn't first have it in you. This is why foolish people follow foolish teachers, and wise people follow wise teachers, and those with the unexcelled wisdom follow no one at all.

Edited March 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[forestofsouls]

gold,

 

I think it is a fallacy to say that a teacher cannot teach. A teacher can point the way, this is their role. A piano teacher can show you how to play piano. You still need to do the work, but the teacher can show you how. This is not innate.

 

Likewise, a teacher can point you in the right direction regarding the truth of things. In addition, a teacher and a technique can allow you to gradually approach potentially unhinging realizations. If one is firmly rooted, these insights are more liberating that startling.

 

Finally, a teacher is living proof that you can jump into the abyss and survive safe and sane.

 

What we think is "ours" is a fallacy. Do you create your thoughts? Do you create your habits, your predispositions, you propensity?

[thelerner]

When you think you see a wise teacher, how do you know that teacher is wise? Maybe the teacher is a moron. You know it because the wisdom is always, forever, IN YOUR OWN MIND. You could never recognize wisdom in another person if you didn't first have it in you. This is why foolish people follow foolish teachers, and wise people follow wise teachers, and those with the unexcelled wisdom follow no one at all.

 

A wise teacher taught me to be aware and be wary of I, You and Them thinking. Its like this:

 

Me, I'm wise, so my teacher is wise. You, are not as wise as me, but if you agree w/ me are smarter then most. Them, them who disagree with me are obviously foolish and have foolish teachers. I think the actual example used was the person who does an 'unwise action' and thinks 'I'm brave'. Sees another do it and says you're foolhardy. Reads about another group doing it and thinks 'They are stupid.'

 

Wisdom has to earn its bread. It has to make you a better person; allow you to function better in this world, connect to it better. Thats how I recognize wisdom. Most traditions have it, I find exemplary examples in Buddhisms and its explanations. Course knowng isn't enough, the test is can you live it?

 

I've found those w/ great ability are the ones who talk about how amazing there own teachers were.

 

Michael