What is real?

[goldisheavy]

Hey guys, I think the topic about the photo should be made more general. Instead of discussing a particular photo, let's discuss the issue of perception and reality.

 

Is it possible to see spiritual energy?

 

Is it possible to emit light?

 

Can people fly unaided?

 

Are there what people call "miracles"?

 

Can people experience amazing healing that doesn't fall within the realm of known science?

 

Is there any magic to life, or does life experience operate strictly "by the physics/chemistry/biology" book?

 

If you answer any of these questions, how would you attempt to prove your point? And let me ask further. Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof? What did it take to change your mind? What does it mean "to prove"? What is involved in the process of "proving"?

 

For the record, since I do not adhere to a physicalist metaphysical philosophy, I do believe that rare, extraordinary experiences are possible. Yes, call me an idiot or a "believer" if you like, but I believe that hands can glow. My hands don't glow. I've never seen any hands that glow. But I know based on reason that there is nothing, nothing, in the nature of cognition that inherently prohibits such experience from occurring. So even though I don't readily see glowing hands, I don't dismiss the possibility either. Wait, not only do I not dismiss the possibility, but I actually think it's very possible.

 

Are glowing hands good for anything though? That's a separate question I think. I believe that you can be healed by touch, but I don't think your hands must glow for that to work. Healing touch works by allowing the patient to feel the presence of true kindness and compassion through the touch, and it is this presence that heals.

 

If glowing hands are possible, what will you accept as proof? Would a digital photo suffice? What resolution would be adequate if yes? If not, do you need to see it in person? What if you are hypnotized? Hypnosis is very powerful and real phenomenon, don't you think? I've been hypnotized before at a show once, and I was not exactly striving to be hypnotized in any explicit manner.

 

Have any of you been hypnotized? Let's discuss how we know what is real and what is not real.

[freeform]

get rid of everything - all that's left is real.

[goldisheavy]

get rid of everything - all that's left is real.

 

Can you get rid of "getting rid of everything" and then what's left is real? If that's not a valid option, then why not? Also, how do you "get rid of everything" in practical, down to earth terms? I don't think it's possible to get rid of anything, not even one thing.

[Aetherous]

Keep an open mind. Everything is possible.

 

It's foolish to believe in possible things that aren't real, and foolish to not believe in possible things that are real.

 

Finding out if these things are true doesn't involve discussing it on a forum and assuming a limited perspective.

[Cameron]

get rid of everything - all that's left is real.

 

 

Best post of the year so far imo

[xenolith]

...do you really want to know? (...gonna assume yes was the answer...)

 

...electrochemically remove your cerebrum and what is one aware of? All that is real. The Tao.

 

Human experience founded awareness goes bye-bye.

 

Those that have been paying attention know how to electrochemically remove the cerebrum...

[mat black]

Phenomena of various manifestations exist in this world. Most types are commnly percieved by the 5 senses while different levels of perception are needed to experience others. Each person has varying degrees of capacity in this regard.

Some phenomena may arouse curiostity, even seem extrodinary or 'supernatural' and may therefore be of interst to investigate and discuss at times which is what some people might want to do.

But maybe we should also remember that all things whether detected by sensory or extra sensory perception is still phenomena nonetheless, and hence subject to arising and passing.

I would suggest that it's important to also focus our effort in allowing our minds to become still and quite. IOW to work towards having or being in samadhi - unmoving concentration.

 

I like to refer to Sri Ramana Maharshis' reminder in this regard:

"The phenomena we see are curios and suprising, but the most marvelous thing of it all is that we do not realise that it is the one, and only one illimitable force which is reponsible for all the phenomena we see and the act of seeing them.

Do not fix your attentionon these changing things of life, death and phenomena. Do not even think of the actual act of percieving them, but only of that which sees all these things. That which is responsible for it all. From now on, let your meditation be not opn the act of seeing nor on what you see, but immovably on that which sees" - Sri Ramana Maharshi.

 

This statement also reminds me of parts of the Shurangama Sutra, eg Avalokiteshvara returning the hearing within to hear his own innate nature.

Edited March 5, 2009 by mat black

[NeutralWire]

Is it possible to see spiritual energy?

 

Yes.

 

Is it possible to emit light?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Can people fly unaided?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Are there what people call "miracles"?

 

No.

 

 

Can people experience amazing healing that doesn't fall within the realm of known science?

 

 

'Known' to whom?

 

 

Is there any magic to life, or does life experience operate strictly "by the physics/chemistry/biology" book?

 

 

Whose book?

 

 

If you answer any of these questions, how would you attempt to prove your point?

 

 

I wouldn't.

 

 

And let me ask further. Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof?

 

Plenty!

 

 

 

What did it take to change your mind?

 

Experience.

 

 

Are glowing hands good for anything though?

 

It depends whose and why they are glowing.

 

 

maybe we should also remember that all things whether detected by sensory or extra sensory perception is still phenomena nonetheless, and hence subject to arising and passing.

 

True but entirely irrelevant to the question.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited March 5, 2009 by NeutralWire

[goldisheavy]

I think the problem is that I put too many questions and people are choosing to answer the most silliest of questions and in the most superficial way possible.

 

Why not try to answer this one: "Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof? What did it take to change your mind? What does it mean 'to prove'? What is involved in the process of 'proving'?"

 

And please, don't put cheap one word answers like "experience". That's just a catch all for anything. You can answer "experience" to any question. Let your answer demonstrate that you have contemplated the issue on your own time and not just read about it in a book. If you haven't contemplated it in the past, it's not too late now!

 

When you answer the question, please give an example of something concrete that has been proven to you that you didn't believe prior to proof. So please give a detailed description of your experience and then please offer your contemplative analysis of the beliefs that have structured and informed that experience all throughout.

 

Please let's not quote anyone either. Let's just speak our minds as we understand things. I'd rather get a less eloquent answer that I can trust is genuine than get a very clever quotation that I believe the person doesn't truly understand.

Edited March 5, 2009 by goldisheavy

[NeutralWire]

goldisheavy --

 

And please, don't put cheap one word answers like "experience". That's just a catch all for anything.

 

On the contrary, it's completely clear. I experienced something which made me change my mind. For the record that means exactly that it's not something I read in a book.

 

When you asked your questions you didn't say you wanted concrete examples. I'm not going to give any concrete examples. In my post I stated that I wouldn't attempt to prove my point, and I won't. The answers I gave to your questions aren't 'cheap', nor superficial -- just short and lacking detail. My experiences likewise are not cheap.

 

I deliberately put hooks in my answers for further questions though, if someone were in the mood. My first four answers alone, even though they are one-word answers, contain quite a bit of philosophy -- if those who are reading really do like to think carefully that is.

 

NW

[mat black]

Please let's not quote anyone either. Let's just speak our minds as we understand things. I'd rather get a less eloquent answer that I can trust is genuine than get a very clever quotation that I believe the person doesn't truly understand.

No worries, but the quote by Sri Ramana was not complicated, pretty easy to understand and is a very useful reminder of ultimately what we should concern ourselves with .

 

I've had things proven as true to me. Though I won't say that I didn't believe them previously as I don't hold fixed opinoins about matters, I just leave the possibilities open.

The more we practice the more may be revealed - according to our capacity to recieve without being attatched or distracted.

Others might chime in with examples, but no way am I going to give examples of my experiences, this is personal and something I only share with my teachers and close cultivators.

 

Neutral wire put it nicely too.

Edited March 5, 2009 by mat black

[goldisheavy]

NW,

 

Your reply makes me want to yawn. You're kind of saying, "yo guys, I'll talk, but I won't join the discussion".

 

In my post I stated that I wouldn't attempt to prove my point, and I won't.

 

I asked to discuss the process of proving and I didn't ask anyone to actually prove anything to me or to anyone. The question was "Was anything ever proven to you? How was that accomplished? Can you recount the experience and offer some analytical insight into it?" The question was not "prove to me you can fly" or "prove to me you can make your hands glow" (those are more like demands anyway).

 

If you don't want to discuss anything, it's better to just shut up than to pretend like you are discussing while not actually discussing anything.

 

The goal is not to get me or anyone else sold on some belief or experience. The goal, as I see it and suggest it, is to gain insight into what happens during "proving". That's the spirit of what I am saying.

 

NW, so you are being cheap. No questions about it. You refuse to share deeply.

Edited March 5, 2009 by goldisheavy

[三江源]

real/fake is a false dichotomy in the first place, so the premise is off.

 

how can you 'share deeply' about 'proof'... isnt that kind of 'proof' itself something that precludes 'depth'...

[Ian]

Hey guys, I think the topic about the photo should be made more general. Instead of discussing a particular photo, let's discuss the issue of perception and reality.

 

Is it possible to see spiritual energy?

 

Is it possible to emit light?

 

Can people fly unaided?

 

Are there what people call "miracles"?

 

Can people experience amazing healing that doesn't fall within the realm of known science?

 

Is there any magic to life, or does life experience operate strictly "by the physics/chemistry/biology" book?

 

If you answer any of these questions, how would you attempt to prove your point? And let me ask further. Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof? What did it take to change your mind? What does it mean "to prove"? What is involved in the process of "proving"?

 

For the record, since I do not adhere to a physicalist metaphysical philosophy, I do believe that rare, extraordinary experiences are possible. Yes, call me an idiot or a "believer" if you like, but I believe that hands can glow. My hands don't glow. I've never seen any hands that glow. But I know based on reason that there is nothing, nothing, in the nature of cognition that inherently prohibits such experience from occurring. So even though I don't readily see glowing hands, I don't dismiss the possibility either. Wait, not only do I not dismiss the possibility, but I actually think it's very possible.

 

Are glowing hands good for anything though? That's a separate question I think. I believe that you can be healed by touch, but I don't think your hands must glow for that to work. Healing touch works by allowing the patient to feel the presence of true kindness and compassion through the touch, and it is this presence that heals.

 

If glowing hands are possible, what will you accept as proof? Would a digital photo suffice? What resolution would be adequate if yes? If not, do you need to see it in person? What if you are hypnotized? Hypnosis is very powerful and real phenomenon, don't you think? I've been hypnotized before at a show once, and I was not exactly striving to be hypnotized in any explicit manner.

 

Have any of you been hypnotized? Let's discuss how we know what is real and what is not real.

 

Goldisheavy - would you be willing to supply any background about yourself? I know it's not remotely relevant to this topic, but I'd love to know things like: your age, profession, what esoteric practices, if any, you've studied, married or single, any of that stuff... No proof required !

[goldisheavy]

real/fake is a false dichotomy in the first place, so the premise is off.

 

how can you 'share deeply' about 'proof'... isnt that kind of 'proof' itself something that precludes 'depth'...

 

I'll show you how, not just theoretically. Tomorrow I am going to share my experiences and analysis on this matter and you'll get your answer in a form of an example. I just thought other people might want to take a stab at it first.

 

So far I see mostly dodging. No one has approached the question in a face-to-face toe-to-toe manner.

Edited March 5, 2009 by goldisheavy

[三江源]

 

I'll show you how, not just theoretically. Tomorrow I am going to share my experiences and analysis on this matter and you'll get your answer in a form of an example. I just thought other people might want to take a stab at it first.

 

So far I see mostly dodging. No one has approached the question in a face-to-face toe-to-toe manner.

 

 

yang goes crazy sometimes. Have you done any yin practices lately?

[freeform]

I love this thread - it's like watching a play about the megalomaniac, ego-centric character 'Intellect' trying to assert his dominance over anything that is not Intellect - which happens to be pretty much everything

 

 

Can you get rid of "getting rid of everything" and then what's left is real? If that's not a valid option, then why not? Also, how do you "get rid of everything" in practical, down to earth terms? I don't think it's possible to get rid of anything, not even one thing.

 

Actually it's very simple - if it's not there (fake) then it's very easy to get rid of (easier than keeping it there anyway) - if on the other hand it's actually there (real) you wouldn't be able to get rid of it.

 

BTW - I think you really took an unnecessarily harsh view of what NeutralWire wrote - I think he was being quite ernest.

 

I'll give 'Intellect' some toys.

 

there are two main ways people make things 'true' (there are other ways - but these two are the most common)

 

1) Intensity - having an intense experience of something - and from then you believe it to be true

 

2) Repetition - the same thing keeps happening over and over, so you start to believe it's true

 

(these aren't pigeon holes with hard edges - most people have some level of combination between the two)

 

then there are mabe 3 others... one of which is 'Rhythm' - it's an interesting one because it's hard to explain and happens to be my internal pattern...

 

Check these out the might interest the Intellect for a time: http://www.nlpls.com/articles/metaPrograms.php

[Spectrum]

I'll show you how, not just theoretically. Tomorrow I am going to share my experiences and analysis on this matter and you'll get your answer in a form of an example. I just thought other people might want to take a stab at it first.

 

So far I see mostly dodging. No one has approached the question in a face-to-face toe-to-toe manner.

 

high fucking five. theres a lot of spiritual tough guys talking shit around here lately.

[NeutralWire]

I asked to discuss the process of proving and I didn't ask anyone to actually prove anything to me or to anyone

 

Ah, well if I misunderstood your intentions forgive me -- but I still suspect the first set of questions was way different from this goal.

 

I also still insist that my answers to those questions contained something interesting if you were prepared to look at it! You were speaking about miracles and I offered a redefinition of the word as you saw it, questioning your own definition by an enthymeme... but you're no longer interested in what you were calling 'miracles', fine! And you also talked about 'proof'... remember? But now, we are no longer speaking about that either?

 

(And thankyou freeform for seeing my earnestness! )

 

I agree of course with mat black:

 

Others might chime in with examples, but no way am I going to give examples of my experiences, this is personal and something I only share with my teachers and close cultivators.

 

... as far as 'miraculous' things are concerned. Your question now though is simply, what is the process of coming to believe something is real? Since we are no longer talking about miracles, I can answer more thoroughly.

 

There has been a recent thread for example on out-of-body experiences. (These do indeed go against the textbooks of biology and physics, but I don't think they would have counted as 'miracles' for the purposes of the other conversation.)

 

In the case of OBEs, I thought at first, this sounds weird, but something else was touched off deep inside me that made me want to pursue it. I didn't know what that something was. When I read OBE authors I was impressed enough with their coherence not to be put off the idea, but like William Buhlman I didn't believe it until one night I was looking down at my body from the ceiling; unmistakably, at that point I believed it.

 

That's what I mean by experience. It's also why I won't talk about 'proof'; it's always possible for someone to ask endlessly, 'but how did you know?' etc. which becomes tiresome.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited March 5, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Spectrum]

The time to wake the fuck up is Right Meow

 

5X3Kky6bm-Y

[minkus]

Is there any magic to life

 

What in life isnt magical ?

 

 

 

-> to answer your questions, the answer would be yes to all. Proof you have to find yourself.

[Wayfarer64]

What in life isnt magical ?

-> to answer your questions, the answer would be yes to all. Proof you have to find yourself.

 

Yeah - what isn't? I've seen births and deaths and the sun in many phases. Clouds that offered more gravitas than anything gold could muster... I'm talking heft and content and inspiration to boot!- Plus later it rained!

 

Real is where attention meets energy -Any energy - moving at whatever frequency it is bound to... Some is pretty fantastic and can not be measured by the tools we have thus far granted ourselves-

 

But then some folks "tools" are metaphysical... Does that make it magic or just not ready for prime time reality!?- The "reality" where most of our attention is focused...

 

I doubt any of us have actually shared the exact same reality! Our perceptions of the energy we encounter would be pretty different...

 

Making love is close to sharing a single reality... And if thats not magical why bother?

[thelerner]

[Aetherous]

Why not try to answer this one: "Has anything ever been proven to you that you didn't believe in prior to the proof? What did it take to change your mind? What does it mean 'to prove'? What is involved in the process of 'proving'?"

 

Yes. A couple of things: 1) Prayer and 2) Healing with the hands.

 

1) It took my convoy driving over 7 IEDs in one night while the groups in front and behind were getting hit, a bunch of other times like that, and everyone coming home perfectly fine after my tour.

 

2) It took me actually learning how to heal, and the first time trying it having amazing things happen...like a total reduction of stress in the girl I worked on, for about 24 hours. Also she was an insomniac, and after the session, she passed out at like 9 pm and slept for a long time. And also, I could physically feel her blockages in my fingers, and getting feedback from her about what I was doing helped.

 

The process of proving something to me personally isn't really scientific or precise at all, but I consider myself a very doubtful and skeptical person. Also, open minded.

 

I don't have any respect for skeptics who ignore actual evidence. At a certain point, a sensible person has no more reason to doubt.

[gendao]

Is it possible to see spiritual energy?

 

Are there what people call "miracles"?

 

Can people experience amazing healing that doesn't fall within the realm of known science?

In these debates, I think "show more, tell less" is a better approach than...mental circle-jerking with flippant responses. Although, without drama, these forums would also shrivel up and die. It's kinda like how people will bitch about all the sex-filled, violent movies...but then only go to watch the...sex-filled, violent movies.

 

Anyhow, I personally have 2 recent experiences that would relate to these 2. One pretty objective.

 

1) At the end of a ThetaHealing workshop, I awoke in the middle of the night and noticed that my (normally nearsighted) right eye had suddenly reverted to 20/20! This wasn't just a mere flash either, but lasted for about 5 good minutes as I looked around in disbelief, before I went back to bed. Now, that's not something I could just fake to myself - but a real, concrete change. Unfortunately, I just "couldn't believe it" and so it reverted back to blurriness when I woke up the next morning. But for a good 5 minutes or so, I had genuinely achieved an "instant healing" that otherwise would not be "possible" by any conventional medical theories...

 

2) When Santiago was teaching us how to see auras, I saw a bright flash in the middle of the air. Now, you could conceivably "explain away" auras as "afterimages" or some other "eye tricks"...but I don't think there's any conventional explanation for an actual flash that comes out of nowhere like that.

Edited March 5, 2009 by vortex