The danger of radical Islam

[Vajrasattva]

Vajra,

 

I don't know any "real" Sufis. My interest in Sufis and Sufism was mostly through reading and practicing surrender. Surrender was my main practice when I was in my early 20s. I had a strong devotional-surrender bent. I also read about the drunk vs. sober surrender at the time and I thought that sober was the way for me, whereas I was mostly practicing what I would call the "drunk" way.

 

Unlike many people who also profess to be spiritual, I like logic and reason. I think reason culminates smoothly and gracefully in transcendence of reason. So I don't like any kind of attacks on reason and on conceptual thinking, because I see the conceptual as of one essence with the non-conceptual.

 

BTW, I wanted to share this video here. I think this is a beautiful person:

 

 

I wish I knew more about his condition. Apparently he knew he was going to die when he made that video. I pray I am as happy and composed as he is when my time comes. No scratch that. At any time. I don't want to wait before I am dead to be happy and composed.

 

Also, Vajra, I already knew what you have said there except for SILAT. So, yes I get it. I might not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I believe I do know some basic concepts. At the same time, if you want to share more information in detail, please feel free. I am getting tired of all the secrecy and almost a "proprietary" nature of much spiritual information. If more people do not start sharing soon, it's possible that I will go on vacation. If everyone wants to keep all the information to themselves, then I am going to keep what I know secret as well. After all, any fool can become enlightened just by observing a single thought or a tree or by listening to one sound, so no one, including myself, is necessary, strictly speaking.

 

I know you already "Know" everything You keep making that clear in your posts.

 

However I can tell you you do not know anything yet about Ilmu Kebatinan or Tariqat Kebatinan.

 

But maybe you will one day.

 

Why do you have a chip on your shoulder?

 

Why do you keep implying I HORDE information?

 

You want Enlightenment in True Sufi Methods?

 

Seek out a real Sheik. Do not READ about it its not in the books.

 

I pointed you to the right direction before you completely overlooked it.

 

If you are really interested get in contact with Sheik Nazim. Or Sheik Muhammad guru Mang Ipin. If you lighten up a bit I will get you in contact with Sheik Muhammad. But you have to empty your cub buddy.

 

The only way to actually know Sufi is to have transmission from a real Sheik. there is no way around that and a BOOK will NEVER give it to you. Maybe a piece or 2 but not the real transmission.

 

Thank You

Santiago

Edited March 13, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[goldisheavy]

I know you already "Know" everything You keep making that clear in your posts.

 

I don't think you know at all. You make it clear that you don't in all your posts!

 

However I can tell you you do not know anything yet about Ilmu Kebatinan or Tariqat Kebatinan.

 

Keep believing that. I don't know their language perhaps, but I know the truth of their experience.

 

Why do you have a chip on your shoulder?

 

I wouldn't call it a chip. Let me put it this way. I look around my living room. I notice dust and some furniture arrangements are no longer to my liking. So I set about cleaning and rearranging furniture. That's what I can do. So I do it.

 

Why do you keep implying I HORDE information?

 

Because you've been initiated into traditions where secrets are kept. And I took a vow of openness! I am your undoing. Oho! Watch out! I am not violent, but my entrance on the stage is your exit. Adios Mara of secrets!

 

You want Enlightenment in True Sufi Methods?

 

Not at all! I don't want anything. I am in a state of constant fulfillment. Even if my leg is falling off, it is so.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

Yet, the beat goes on...

 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9...;show_article=1

 

I believe this was the relevant quote from this article:

 

"A group of people are misusing religion to serve their own interests."

[Vajrasattva]

I don't think you know at all. You make it clear that you don't in all your posts!

Keep believing that. I don't know their language perhaps, but I know the truth of their experience.

I wouldn't call it a chip. Let me put it this way. I look around my living room. I notice dust and some furniture arrangements are no longer to my liking. So I set about cleaning and rearranging furniture. That's what I can do. So I do it.

Because you've been initiated into traditions where secrets are kept. And I took a vow of openness! I am your undoing. Oho! Watch out! I am not violent, but my entrance on the stage is your exit. Adios Mara of secrets!

Not at all! I don't want anything. I am in a state of constant fulfillment. Even if my leg is falling off, it is so.

 

 

I tried to help you : )

 

You are the one that made posts about Islam and said you had some idea about Sufi. How can you reallyknow about Shariat & Other Islamic things with out having a real transmission to its esoteric sides?

 

Other wise you are stuck in what you can only see in the stage that you are at which is what you stated which was:

 

Islam = Negative

 

Quran = Bad

 

Muhammad = Child rapist

 

Shariat = Negative

 

But when you have a real understanding you have a different view and also you have a different realization of things. But that can ONLY be experienced when you have an actual transmission that goes straight from Muhammad/Al Anur to his disciples/Sheiks to you.

 

Do not KID your self man NO BOOK has it no matter which one you think you have that has Gold nuggets for words.

 

There is no way you will know Unless you meet a real Sheik that can give you a transmission.

 

You may imagine and get some steps ahead but trust me the doors wont open till you get it from those that really have it and until you have actual permission to DO.

 

I do sincerely wish to help you but i do not see you emptying your cup or at least putting yours aside and acquiring a new cup.

 

There are HUGE reasons why things have been kept secret tradition. Its not for the Malefic reasons you think it is either.

 

You would never get anywhere with the way you "present" yourself. If you had any real humility its Given ALL to you at one instance.

 

But according to you you HAVE IT already so why even post about Islam & Sufi then?

 

So again no you do not have it. I will tell you this much To under stand Sufi

 

understand complete Surrender Service Love Devotion Dedication and allow your self to be ZERO.

But again these are just words you still need the blessing and the "permission" for that door to open. It takes balls to surrender truly to see right through to your true self.

 

Don't forget that A rose smells great & Looks Beautiful but even the Thorns have a Value.

 

Most of all you have to understand something Gold is Heavy....

 

I have nothing against you nor care to have anything against you. I actually invite you with open arms and a smile.

 

Best wishes & Salams,

 

Santiago

[Pietro]

Thank you Pietro. We need to speak up about this. The attitude toward apostates in Islam is extremely wrong and terrible. If it's not abandoned, then I am afraid Islam will be wiped completely off this planet, together with all the good things in it, like Sufism.

 

The murderous and hateful intentions toward apostates are not, completely not acceptable. I think the Koranic attitude toward the apostates is the most dangerous part of Islam. It makes people who are Muslims stuck in Islam because they fear to leave. It's just like being in a gang fo' life. Even when the gangster decides it's time for a better life, one is afraid to leave the gang.

 

The desire to live under Sharia is also dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as the item B on your list, in my opinion.

Agreed.

 

I have a friend who came from a middle eastern country (I don't remember which, shame on me -that is, I don't remember which nation, I do remember which friend - ). I met him in London, we were poor student flatmate for some time. As he came to the UK his spirituality opened up, and when I met him he had become neopagan. He was going through a search period, definitly a good thing. Then he went back home, and all this brought a lot of stress to his family. His parents could not accept that their son was going to go to the deepest hell. I think he eventually claimed that he came back to Islam to make them feel ok. But I think he has also frozen his spiritual search for the time being. What a shame. I also suggested him that he could move to Sufi, and he explained to me that in the country/tradition/family (boh?) where he comes from Sufi are not regarded as an acceptable Muslim tradition. Apparently the fact that they themselves consider themselves Muslim, does not mean other groups accpet them as well. It is obviously a very complicated matter. The closes that I can think of are the way eretics were being treated by Christians, but I might be totally off.

 

Speaking about people who are coinsidered part of a religion, when in their heart they are not, I think the Cattholic Church of Rome still consider me among its sheeps, and goes to the Italian state with the number of their believers, asking for part of the taxes I pay in Italy. Speak about people who know how to count well in their favour

 

 

P.S. English is not my first language, but I think this:

intentions toward apostates are not, completely not acceptable.

means that they are acceptable. As in English, like Latin (and unlike Italian) two negations eliminate each other. I think you should add a second comma:

intentions toward apostates are not, completely not, acceptable.

But I would love to have this further clarified

[Vajrasattva]

Agreed.

 

I have a friend who came from a middle eastern country (I don't remember which, shame on me -that is, I don't remember which nation, I do remember which friend - ). I met him in London, we were poor student flatmate for some time. As he came to the UK his spirituality opened up, and when I met him he had become neopagan. He was going through a search period, definitly a good thing. Then he went back home, and all this brought a lot of stress to his family. His parents could not accept that their son was going to go to the deepest hell. I think he eventually claimed that he came back to Islam to make them feel ok. But I think he has also frozen his spiritual search for the time being. What a shame. I also suggested him that he could move to Sufi, and he explained to me that in the country/tradition/family (boh?) where he comes from Sufi are not regarded as an acceptable Muslim tradition. Apparently the fact that they themselves consider themselves Muslim, does not mean other groups accpet them as well. It is obviously a very complicated matter. The closes that I can think of are the way eretics were being treated by Christians, but I might be totally off.

 

Speaking about people who are coinsidered part of a religion, when in their heart they are not, I think the Cattholic Church of Rome still consider me among its sheeps, and goes to the Italian state with the number of their believers, asking for part of the taxes I pay in Italy. Speak about people who know how to count well in their favour

P.S. English is not my first language, but I think this:

intentions toward apostates are not, completely not acceptable.

means that they are acceptable. As in English, like Latin (and unlike Italian) two negations eliminate each other. I think you should add a second comma:

intentions toward apostates are not, completely not, acceptable.

But I would love to have this further clarified

 

Tell him to go to Sufis the real muslim is a sufi.

[Apech]

I am stunned to find such an Islamophobic thread on TTBs - perhaps some of you could spend some time studying the historical contribution that Islam made to science, philosophy, medecine and Western culture generally. It is not just Sufi versus the rest. Why do you find it strange that devout Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law? They probably look around at all the hate, crime, and violence that they see in our society and are quite frightened by it - as is any right minded person.

 

OK Islam has its fair share of nutcases who just hate everyone except themselves - but that is about the shortcomings of human nature and not Islam.

 

The problem is that culturally they (rather like the Orthodox Judaism) have become stuck in the Middle Ages - but then if you read Gampopa or other Tibetan Buddhism on sexual conduct you will see exactly the same thing.

 

 

If some friend of yours has run into trouble with their parents because they became a Neo-pagan - then imagine the reaction of a hard line Christian family, or a strict Jewish family - whats the difference?

 

 

PS Sufis are Shi'ite and other (most) Muslims are Sunni - the split occurred after the death of the prophet as to whether his relative Ali or the Imams inherited the spiritual tradition.

Edited March 13, 2009 by apepch7

[Vajrasattva]

I am stunned to find such an Islamophobic thread on TTBs - perhaps some of you could spend some time studying the historical contribution that Islam made to science, philosophy, medecine and Western culture generally. It is not just Sufi versus the rest. Why do you find it strange that devout Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law? They probably look around at all the hate, crime, and violence that they see in our society and are quite frightened by it - as is any right minded person.

 

OK Islam has its fair share of nutcases who just hate everyone except themselves - but that is about the shortcomings of human nature and not Islam.

 

The problem is that culturally they (rather like the Orthodox Judaism) have become stuck in the Middle Ages - but then if you read Gampopa or other Tibetan Buddhism on sexual conduct you will see exactly the same thing.

If some friend of yours has run into trouble with their parents because they became a Neo-pagan - then imagine the reaction of a hard line Christian family, or a strict Jewish family - whats the difference?

PS Sufis are Shi'ite and other (most) Muslims are Sunni - the split occurred after the death of the prophet as to whether his relative Ali or the Imams inherited the spiritual tradition.

 

 

true

 

 

also note that the Naqshabandi is mostly Sunni their lineage is traced back to Muhammad back through his 1st Caliph abu Bakr. Ali was the 4th Caliph.

Peace

 

Santiago

[Taoist81]

I am stunned to find such an Islamophobic thread on TTBs - perhaps some of you could spend some time studying the historical contribution that Islam made to science, philosophy, medecine and Western culture generally. It is not just Sufi versus the rest. Why do you find it strange that devout Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law? They probably look around at all the hate, crime, and violence that they see in our society and are quite frightened by it - as is any right minded person.

 

OK Islam has its fair share of nutcases who just hate everyone except themselves - but that is about the shortcomings of human nature and not Islam.

 

The problem is that culturally they (rather like the Orthodox Judaism) have become stuck in the Middle Ages - but then if you read Gampopa or other Tibetan Buddhism on sexual conduct you will see exactly the same thing.

If some friend of yours has run into trouble with their parents because they became a Neo-pagan - then imagine the reaction of a hard line Christian family, or a strict Jewish family - whats the difference?

PS Sufis are Shi'ite and other (most) Muslims are Sunni - the split occurred after the death of the prophet as to whether his relative Ali or the Imams inherited the spiritual tradition.

No Islamophobia here (best friend is a Saudi Muslim). Just honest discussion of the beauty and ugliness in a particular faith tradition (most, if not all, of them have both)

Actually it is understandable for those who would like to live under Sharia. It is simple ignorance and lack of education and personal responsibility. Same with all the other moral codes (note: not "ethical" codes) that are based on misunderstandings of human nature. Most violence arises from the same thing: Ignorance. There is hate, crime and violence in every culture, Sharia has never, and will never stop that, only education will.

People everywhere need to learn to accept other peoples lives as their own and take responsibility for their own lives. Many Muslims do feel this way, though just like many (MANY) Americans (speaking as an American), many other Muslims don't.

 

You are dead on with the "stuck in the Middle Ages" comment, but excusing it doesn't help. Neither with fundie Muslims nor Fundie "other -isms".

 

Oh, and as V. mentions above, not all Sufi Orders are Shiite. There is at least one that is Sunni, and some that aren't even Muslim. Most Sufi Orders (like most true esoteric traditions) are to some extent non-sectarian and accept any Muslim who can say "la illaha il'allah" etc..

[Apech]

No Islamophobia here (best friend is a Saudi Muslim). Just honest discussion of the beauty and ugliness in a particular faith tradition (most, if not all, of them have both)

Actually it is understandable for those who would like to live under Sharia. It is simple ignorance and lack of education and personal responsibility. Same with all the other moral codes (note: not "ethical" codes) that are based on misunderstandings of human nature. Most violence arises from the same thing: Ignorance. There is hate, crime and violence in every culture, Sharia has never, and will never stop that, only education will.

People everywhere need to learn to accept other peoples lives as their own and take responsibility for their own lives. Many Muslims do feel this way, though just like many (MANY) Americans (speaking as an American), many other Muslims don't.

 

You are dead on with the "stuck in the Middle Ages" comment, but excusing it doesn't help. Neither with fundie Muslims nor Fundie "other -isms".

 

Oh, and as V. mentions above, not all Sufi Orders are Shiite. There is at least one that is Sunni, and some that aren't even Muslim. Most Sufi Orders (like most true esoteric traditions) are to some extent non-sectarian and accept any Muslim who can say "la illaha il'allah" etc..

 

 

OK fair enough - I am not a fan of any state religion used for social control. But I certainly got the impression here that some people are particularly anti-Islam and I think that maybe this has just become the new 'enemy' now that Communism has fallen. Governments and states have always set people against people by emphasising differences and I think that much of the fear/panic and 'otherness' is deliberately generated.

 

In the UK I always go back to the difference between the way in which we dealt with the Irish 'troubles' - ie. calm, measured, designed to stop panic even when they were bombing mainland cities (including Manchester where I live) and the reaction to 9/11 and the London Bombings which has been designed to heighten tension and fear (IMO).

 

I must admit I didn't know that there were Sunni Sufis but all the better for that. My friend was a member of the Nimatullah Sufi order for many years and I met Dr. Nurbhaksh the head of the order who was a great mystic and poet. Sufis who are not Muslim! That strikes me a strange - who are they?

[Wayfarer64]

That "stuck in the past syndrome" is scattered around the world in many different systems. That the Muslems seem to be agressive in their attitudes & inforcing proscribed behaviors is worrisome to many.

 

But as we each struggle towards enlightenment, so do whole peoples....We can only try to open their minds while we defend our own ways.

 

Many here seem to believe they are on a path towards enlightenment. It may be prudent for us each to look within and see if our own systems are intrusive to others' -

 

Tolerance is not always the best approach to troubling ideas, but it is usually a good place to start from. I do not see this coming from many muslems... That being said - I have met a few wonderful Ba'hais- Seals & Crofts were two pretty famous musicians I met who were Ba'hai And A few of my closest friends here in central NJ are Muslem from Egypt and very open minded fellas...

Generalized catagorizing fails us all...

 

EDIT_ here is a thought I borrowed-

 

It is, perhaps, the Greek input into Christianity which is responsible for that (which) I believe worthy of emphasis when addressing the Western confrontation with Islam: that of irony. There is already a developing streak of irony in the Hebrew Bible, one that is amplified by the Talmud. But there is a new kind of irony in Jesus' judgments and parables, one which looks at the spectacle of human folly and wryly shows us how to live with it. A telling example of this is Jesus' verdict in the case of the woman taken in adultery. "Let he who is without fault," he says, "cast the first stone." In other words, "Come off it. Haven't you wanted to do what she did, and already done it in your hearts?" . . . . This irony is shared by the great Sufi poets, especially Rumi and Hafiz, but it seems to be largely unknown in the schools of Islam that shape the souls of the Islamists. Theirs is a religion which refuses to see itself from the outside, and which cannot bear to be criticized, still less to be laughed at -- something we have abundantly witnessed in recent times.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[Pietro]

perhaps some of you could spend some time studying the historical contribution that Islam made to science, philosophy, medecine and Western culture generally.

 

I totally agree with you. Let's look at them together. I am sure it will help both of us.

Arab culture had a great moment of richness between 800 and 1100. At the time Baghdad was the center of the cultural world, books were translated, people would go there to study. It was a great period, and we all human beings are in great depth to the research that happened in this period. I read that 2/3 of the names of the stars are arab, and were given in that period, as they were discovered by Arab astronomers. What a great moment. And what about maths, and Al-gebra, and Al-gorithm. Believe it or not but my job is to write al-gorithm, to study biology using al-gebra. How could I forget where my field come from. It would be like forgetting your own ancestors.

 

But then it ended.

 

Why it ended? What has happened? Well, for what I know this scholar was somehow responsible:

Ḥāmid Al-Ghazali. His incredible epistemological responsability was to put God between every cause and every effect. Thus emptying of any content scientific investigation.

 

Let me quote a couple of section from wikipedia. I am not teaching to you, I am studying them with you:

 

 

The Incoherence of the Philosophers marked a turning point in Islamic philosophy in its vehement rejections of Aristotle and Plato. The book took aim at the falasifa, a loosely defined group of Islamic philosophers from the 8th through the 11th centuries (most notable among them Avicenna and Al-Farabi) who drew intellectually upon the Ancient Greeks. Ghazali bitterly denounced Aristotle, Socrates and other Greek writers as non-believers and labeled those who employed their methods and ideas as corrupters of the Islamic faith.

 

The Incoherence of the Philosophers is famous for proposing and defending the Asharite theory of occasionalism. Al-Ghazali famously claimed that when fire and cotton are placed in contact, the cotton is burned directly by God rather than by the fire, a claim which he defended using logic. He argued that because God is usually seen as rational, rather than arbitrary, his behaviour in normally causing events in the same sequence (ie, what appears to us to be efficient causation) can be understood as a natural outworking of that principle of reason, which we then describe as the laws of nature. Properly speaking, however, these are not laws of nature but laws by which God. chooses to govern his own behaviour (his autonomy, in the strict sense) - in other words, his rational will.

 

However, Al-Ghazali does express support for a scientific methodology based on demonstration and mathematics, while discussing astronomy. After describing the scientific facts of the solar eclipse resulting from the Moon coming between the Sun and Earth and the lunar eclipse from the Earth coming between the Sun and Moon, he writes:[7]

Whosoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting such a theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt.

In the next century, Averroes drafted a lengthy rebuttal of Ghazali's Incoherence entitled The Incoherence of the Incoherence; however, the epistemological course of Islamic thought had already been set.

 

Also his influence in the islamic world is quite incredible:

 

Ghazali played a very major role in integrating Sufism with Shariah. He combined the concepts of Sufism very well with the Shariah laws. He was also the first to present a formal description of Sufism in his works. His works also strengthened the status of Sunnite Islam against other schools. The Batinite (Ismailism) had emerged in Persian territories and were gaining more and more power during Ghazali's period, as Nizam al-Mulk was assassinated by the members of Ismailis. Ghazali strictly refuted their ideology and wrote several books on refutation of Baatinyas which significantly weakened their status.

 

Ijtihad is the process through which Islamic scholars can generate new rules for Muslims. Ijtihad was one of the recognized sources of Islamic knowledge by early Islamic scholars - that is, in addition to Quran, Sunnah and Qiyas. While it is not widely agreed that Al-Ghazali himself intended to "shut the door of ijtihad" completely and permanently, such an interpretation of Al-Ghazali's work is believed to have led Islamic societies to be "frozen in time". Works of critics of Al-Ghazali (such as Ibn-Rushd, a rationalist), as well as the works of any ancient philosopher, are believed to have been forbidden in these "frozen societies" through the centuries. As a result, all chances were lost to gradually revitalize religion - which may have been less painful had it been spread over a period of centuries.

 

Whether the actual outcome of "freezing Islamic thinking in time" was the goal of Al-Ghazali is highly debatable. While he himself was a critic of the philosophers, Al-Ghazali was a master in the art of philosophy and had an immense education in the field. After such a long education in philosophy, as well as a long process of reflection. But only taking Al-Ghazali's final conclusions, while lacking a comparable education (and a reflection process) in the area, and as a result being unable to trace Al-Ghazali in his thought process, only exacerbates the probability of the misuse of Al-Ghazali's conclusions.

 

This traditional view, however, has been disputed by recent scholarship, which has shown that scientific and philosophical activity continued to flourish in the Islamic world long after him.

 

Wether he really froze or not froze islamic thinking is IMHO quite irrelevant. It seem to me quite clear that islamic thought has drammatically slowed down, from about that time. Maybe we, oops they, can get it back on track. But is not going to be smooth, fast nor painless.

 

So, I would say, yes we are heavily indepted with Muslim science... of the time. But modern Islam is different. The number of books that are translated right now into Arab are only a fraction of the books that are translated from arab. Or to other languages. You need to take decisions based on the situation now, not based on the situation 1000 years ago.

 

Why do you find it strange that devout Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law? They probably look around at all the hate, crime, and violence that they see in our society and are quite frightened by it - as is any right minded person.

 

It is not strange. It is just dangerous when summed with the other elements of Islam, inability to accept that people can leave their religion, and higher birth rate. The sum of all those has an effect in society which is greater than the effect of their parts. But as I said, I am against most Islam, as I am against those Christians that want to live in a non democratic country (see Jesus camp for an exampe of this). It is just that those Christians are a much smaller minority of Christians. I am not sure about the percentages, but I think that we can agree Catholics is one of the biggest groups in Christianity. Now Catholic follow the lead of the pope who have swore to lead accoding to the Concilio Vaticano II (The fact that he does not do it, we leave it for now aside, most Catholics are more advanced than B12).

 

Now in the concilio Vaticano II it is the

"DECLARATION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

ON THE RIGHT OF THE PERSON AND OF COMMUNITIES

TO SOCIAL AND CIVIL FREEDOM IN MATTERS RELIGIOUS .

Here it is explained how there can be a salvation outside of the church. This is the official position of the church.

 

Now the official position of Islam, for as much as we can find an official position, is that apostasy is heavily condamned, if not even punished by death.

 

If some friend of yours has run into trouble with their parents because they became a Neo-pagan - then imagine the reaction of a hard line Christian family, or a strict Jewish family - whats the difference?

First of all I do not condone people with similar ideas of other religions, so I am not islamophobic, but religions-who-want-to-govern-and-condamn-apostasy-phobic. Most of Islam just happen to fit the bill, but many others do. They are generally smaller and radical.

 

It is first of all a matter of percentages, how many Muslim that condemn apostasy are there, and that also want Sharia, versus how many Christians that do the same. Then you have to look at the education of women in muslim societies, and with that the fertility rate, versus the same thing in Christians society.

 

Jews in all this are the best, they just do not have many kids, and it is really hard to become a Jew (while it is easy to become a Christian, easy to leave, and easy to be readmitted, and it is easy to become a Muslim -I think, you just need to declare yourself as such-, and hard to leave).

 

regarding the example:

the difference is that my friend kids will probably grow in the Islamic religion,

will learn that there should be no division between church and state, and apostasy should be punished.

 

While the son of the hard line Christian will grow to be Christians, but will also learn that there should be a division between church and state, and (as they confront themselves with the major christian groups), that apostasy is possible.

[Apech]

Pietro,

 

I would suspect, as you kind of suggest, that the slow down in Islamic culture, or change in mind set or whatever we might call it precipitated the popularity of the philosopher's thought, rather than the other way round. I think ideas take hold in societies where the right conditions exist. Somehow the Islamic culture which blossomed in that 800 - 1100 period ran out of steam and became inward looking and conservative. Luckily for us, what they had was passed on to the West.

 

I understand from what you say that you think that there is something specific and threatening about Islam, over and above the kind of threat held by any orthodoxy - but maybe I am misreading you.

 

OK Islam is at a particular stage in its development and exists in some of the most troubled places in the world - and is also promoted in a certain form by some very uneducated people (e.g. Taliban), so it is now highlighted in a way that Communism used to be ... that is as the main threat to freedom, liberality and our way of life. By thinking like this a kind of wall has been built up which informs foreign policy against any form of Islamic state (e.g. Iran). This makes them more militant, more confused because of the way in which the West cynically switches support e.g. to and from Saddam Hussein depending on what he was getting up to.

 

In other words it is an unholy mess. And individuals like you and me, and the Muslim in the street are just left wondering what the hell's going on. We are all victims of this nonsense.

[Unconditioned]

So some observations:

 

-Organizations can go too far

-Labels divide (country, religion, etc.)

-TBs can have a constructive conversation and investigate together

-Everyone is biased

-It's Friday and time to leave work

 

Really though, a very interesting discussion. Back to the sidelines for this guy!

[goldisheavy]

I tried to help you : )

 

Not really. What you have tried to do is to discredit me, to lower the value of my identity, to disempower me by removing my internalized authority and replacing it with an externalized one. You haven't tried to actually help me, because in order to help me, you need to know where I am going.

 

For example.

 

If I am going to Florida, and I am in NYC, to help me, you have to tell me to go south. However, if I am going to Boston, you must tell me to go north. If, without fully understanding my intention, that is to say, without fully understanding where I am going, you tell me "Go south" (because that's where you went and all the "cool" people you know also went there), you are not helping me at all!

 

But to admit that you're here to help yourself you need real humility and wisdom, instead of your enormous hubris, oh rainbow handed Guru Santi ball of love.

 

You don't value me as a person, and that's fine, just don't pretend. You only value me as a potential follower of your little secret club. Keep dreaming. I am done with secret clubs. I have stepped on a wide open path of openness and I don't need people like you to help me. In fact, depending on how aggressively you make it obvious that you have some secrets in the form of some information that could potentially help me, and that is not available openly and freely to all, but that I must pay for and promise secrecy and accept various conditions for, I may even dislike you and frown on your methods and lifestyle. I believe you have some degree of freedom to be that way, but certainly don't expect praise and support from me. You'll have to go it alone with that attitude of yours.

 

You are the one that made posts about Islam and said you had some idea about Sufi. How can you reallyknow about Shariat & Other Islamic things with out having a real transmission to its esoteric sides?

 

Very simple. Because if the knowledge that's available openly about Shariat is wrong, and if the only correct knowledge available about Shariat is SECRET (esoteric!), then the right solution is to make the correct knowledge OPEN. However, if you keep the correct knowledge secret, while the incorrect knowledge is open to all, you are the one that's being a moron and not me for failing to seek some secret correct way to understand it.

 

All of us can see the UGLINESS OF SHARIA IN PLAIN VIEW. It is ugly. It is barbaric. Actions are louder than words. We see actions of Sharia. We have videos. It's widely available. Now if I need to go chase down some SECRET to be able to digest this garbage safely, that's fucked up. Plain and simple. If you refuse to make your life-saving secrets public, you are hostile to human life. The ugliness of Sharia is public. In fact, I cannot imagine any information that would make it beautiful. It's barbaric garbage that's going to the toilet of history.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

I AM MOVING THIS WHICH I AM ABOUT TO WRITE TO A SEPERATE THREAD.

[Aetherous]

Santi,

 

There are HUGE reasons why things have been kept secret tradition. Its not for the Malefic reasons you think it is either.

 

Can you share some of the reasons?

[Taoist81]

OK fair enough - I am not a fan of any state religion used for social control. But I certainly got the impression here that some people are particularly anti-Islam and I think that maybe this has just become the new 'enemy' now that Communism has fallen. Governments and states have always set people against people by emphasising differences and I think that much of the fear/panic and 'otherness' is deliberately generated.

 

In the UK I always go back to the difference between the way in which we dealt with the Irish 'troubles' - ie. calm, measured, designed to stop panic even when they were bombing mainland cities (including Manchester where I live) and the reaction to 9/11 and the London Bombings which has been designed to heighten tension and fear (IMO).

 

I must admit I didn't know that there were Sunni Sufis but all the better for that. My friend was a member of the Nimatullah Sufi order for many years and I met Dr. Nurbhaksh the head of the order who was a great mystic and poet. Sufis who are not Muslim! That strikes me a strange - who are they?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Sufism

 

Re: Islamists being the new Communists. That is exactly what has happened. You should check out the documentary The Power of Nightmares.

[goldisheavy]

Islam and other religions have some good wisdom but they also have a lot of foolishness.

 

What all religions, and especially Islam, need is some good editing. Fire up Koran in Microsoft Word or Open Office, and just highlight all the crap and hit the delete button on it. It's that simple. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Taoist81]

But then it ended.

 

Why it ended? What has happened? Well, for what I know this scholar was somehow responsible:

 

Some people argue that it ended because the only "discoveries" that were made then were those stolen from the countries they conquered. Remember, the golden age of Islam was when the Caliphs had an expanding empire. Once they were slowed down....well, they slowed down.

 

Not an endorsement of the theory necessarily, it is just worth mentioning. Rome also grew technologically while it expanded, then when Christianity took over it crumbled.

 

So some observations:

 

-Organizations can go too far

-Labels divide (country, religion, etc.)

-TBs can have a constructive conversation and investigate together

-Everyone is biased

-It's Friday and time to leave work

 

Really though, a very interesting discussion. Back to the sidelines for this guy!

 

Very good observations! : )

 

Islam and other religions have some good wisdom but they also have a lot of foolishness.

 

What all religions, and especially Islam, need is some good editing. Fire up Koran in Microsoft Word or Open Office, and just highlight all the crap and hit the delete button on it. It's that simple. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Some of what seems like crap when taken literally takes on a very different meaning internally. Also, note, much of what is abhorrent about Islamist societies is not from the Koran, it is from the Hadith or cultural traditions.

This is not to say that there are not some things in the Koran that when taken literally cause bad things to happen, there are. But spiritually they have their place most of the time.

[Vajrasattva]

Santi,

Can you share some of the reasons?

 

 

Safety Issues.

[goldisheavy]

Safety Issues.

 

I don't buy that at all. There are two main reasons to keep things secret:

 

1. To protect oneself and one's friends from persecution. (this is not necessary in USA or in Europe, but maybe in Iran you will want to keep your hip hop club semi-secret still).

 

2. To give an aura of exclusivity and mystery to one's school. To give one's own ego an impression that it knows precious information that's not available to the swine. This means if you know the secret you are not swine. Others who don't know it are swine. This is used to entice people into the clubs and to keep them there as the supporting and ever-dependent base.

 

"It's for your own safety" is a bullshit reason. That's because we are all selfish creatures, just like Anthony De Mello says. If I help anyone it's because I enjoy looking at something beautiful and I want to be surrounded by happy, strong, independent, free thinking people. It's for me. I don't want to create co-dependency clubs.

[Aetherous]

I can see the point that it's for safety. If you've ever done powerful practices, you'll understand.

[goldisheavy]

I can see the point that it's for safety. If you've ever done powerful practices, you'll understand.

 

If a practice has a high chance of backfiring, the problem is not with the student, but with the practice itself.

 

There are powerful practices that don't generate as many illnesses as the others. At the same time, even the safest thing is not safe. Even water can kill you if you drink too much. Water, the giver of life, can kill you. Look up "water poisoning" if you don't believe me. That doesn't mean that water should be kept secret. Instead, explain the danger of drinking too much water and let people drink the water openly, in public too, if thirsty. Don't make secret water-drinking clubs.

 

If what you give is more like TNT than water, then you really need to question your approach. Your approach is not a good one if it's not naturally self-correcting.

Edited March 14, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Aetherous]

There are powerful practices that don't generate as many illnesses as the others.

 

Can you give some examples?