The danger of radical Islam

[goldisheavy]

The reason why you cannot group "all of islam" together as wrong is the same as why the Ninevites in the Book of Jonah were not destroyed. Such wanton destruction just because someone is wrong is silly. A religion should not be destroyed because a few renegade lunatics.

 

I agree. So did you read the article I linked? It shows a continuum of opinion on the issue of apostasy. I think it's a reasonable article.

[Apech]

I agree. So did you read the article I linked? It shows a continuum of opinion on the issue of apostasy. I think it's a reasonable article.

 

 

It claims a continuity with Christian thought as well. All the religions of the Book have this problem in that once you believe that the Bible is literally the word of God then it becomes carved in stone and cannot be reviewed or changed. Orthodox Jews have stricter and stricter interpretations of the divine law because of this.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

It claims a continuity with Christian thought as well. All the religions of the Book have this problem in that once you believe that the Bible is literally the word of God then it becomes carved in stone and cannot be reviewed or changed. Orthodox Jews have stricter and stricter interpretations of the divine law because of this.

 

couldnt have said it better myself

[Pietro]

[Taoist81]

[dizzydazzle]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/162464/Voice-o...bs-freedom.html

[Pietro]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/162464/Voice-o...bs-freedom.html

Could you clarify what and why that article is interesting? Maybe quoting it here. Thanks.

[gendao]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/162464/Voice-o...bs-freedom.html

Al-kduh is

by the C1A.

 

And "mole"hill pun intended - considering that OBL was trained by the C!A himself...

[Edward M]

Take a look at this if you are against islam, this in my opinion is truley beautifull and real wisdom!!

 

 

peace

 

Ed

[Sunya]

How so?

 

Buddhism can be summed up in

a NAme of ALLAH.

 

http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/

Ar-Rahman

 

 

well, Compassion is only side of the coin for Buddhism, the other is Wisdom.. wisdom of the truth of emptiness. the wisdom that knocks down any theistic notion. Non duality leaves no room for worshiper and worshipee. but Buddhist non-duality is different, even from Advaita. as there is no real essence, just emptiness. No universal intelligence.. just cause and effect.

 

there is no being both, you may appreciate buddhism for its emphasis on compassion, and that's totally cool. but you can't call yourself a buddhist unless you understand what emptiness is all about... which would also mean understanding why Buddhism apposes any form of Theism. or any idea of Oneness. the goals are different two. the conceptualizing in Islam for example, gives youa n idea of what God is like, and that a God exists in the first place, as separate from the Self (furthermore giving the Self an existence, a Soul) all of this conceptualizing is like fog in the windshield. 'not emptying the cup' as you like to say Santi. that's just how it is in the Buddhist sense. the goals are different, emptiness isn't universal.

Edited March 18, 2009 by mikaelz

[33865_1494798762]

well, Compassion is only side of the coin for Buddhism, the other is Wisdom.. wisdom of the truth of emptiness. the wisdom that knocks down any theistic notion. Non duality leaves no room for worshiper and worshipee. but Buddhist non-duality is different, even from Advaita. as there is no real essence, just emptiness. No universal intelligence.. just cause and effect.

 

there is no being both, you may appreciate buddhism for its emphasis on compassion, and that's totally cool. but you can't call yourself a buddhist unless you understand what emptiness is all about... which would also mean understanding why Buddhism apposes any form of Theism. or any idea of Oneness. the goals are different two. the conceptualizing in Islam for example, gives youa n idea of what God is like, and that a God exists in the first place, as separate from the Self (furthermore giving the Self an existence, a Soul) all of this conceptualizing is like fog in the windshield. 'not emptying the cup' as you like to say Santi. that's just how it is in the Buddhist sense. the goals are different, emptiness isn't universal.

 

yet all the monoteisms claime that we are naked too the one god. That nakedness, is equel to the emptiness of buddism.

As I recall, the koran clearly says we must undress and be naked before allah. We shall even leave our customs, rituals and religions behind, to recognise us self in god.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Guest

[Vajrasattva]

Edited March 18, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[rex]

Buddhism apposes any form of Theism. or any idea of Oneness.

I remember hearing a lama say that while Buddhism denies the concept of God it doesn't deny the nature of God. This at least leaves some scope for meaningful practical comparisons. Oneness isn't necessarily denied either as Samantabhadra as the "All-Creating King" is the essence of all things. Sure, the Prāsaṅgika Mādhyamakas will deny any view of God and Oneness as they refute all positive assertions regarding ultimate truth - though this refutation does not extend to denying paths of practice on the relative level.

 

As usual with things like this this is only my view so I ask for the Triple Gem's forbearance for any error and mispresentation.

[Sunya]

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/200...-vis-hindu.html

 

Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta

(A Paradigm Shift)

Ācārya Dharma Vajra (Sridhar SJB Rana)

 

 

it's all well and nice to appreciate all paths, I do. but the methods are different, and philosophy, ESPECIALLY vs Buddhism. which is complete non-theistic,

 

the experience of these methods can be debated, i tend to be idealistic and think they most religions are fingers pointing to the moon.

 

but all i'm saying is that you can't call yourself a Buddhist and a Muslim, or a Buddhist and a Christian, because the methods and views contradict each other. completely different vehicles, trying to ride both is unnecessary and pointless in my opinon

[Sunya]

btw Santi you said you practiced Dzogchen.. did you learn Thodgal or Trekcho practices?

 

i'm trying to figure out how similiar the actual practice of Dzogchen is to Chan... its hard to find a Dzogchen practitioner that will be open about the practices though, and not indoctrinated into the common Tibetan view of Dzogchen being the highest..spiritual..practice...EVER. lol

 

an interesting post from someone on E Sangha --

 

"Non-duality is realized on the first bodhisattva bhumi.

 

Omniscience is attained upon Buddhahood.

 

In between these two states are the eradication of affliction, and the eradication of all obstacles to omniscience.

 

Omniscience is the dharmakaya. The total integration of the person 24/7 into the stage of non-duality first realized at bhumi number one.

 

As long as you keep trying to force Buddhis path schemes into the path scheme of the Yoga sutra, you will not understand it."

Edited March 19, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrasattva]

btw Santi you said you practiced Dzogchen.. did you learn Thodgal or Trekcho practices?

 

 

 

Yes i studied

 

Tsogyal & Trek Chod.

 

Both from the Bonpo perspective & Nyingma.

 

 

 

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/200...-vis-hindu.html

 

Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta

(A Paradigm Shift)

Ācārya Dharma Vajra (Sridhar SJB Rana)

it's all well and nice to appreciate all paths, I do. but the methods are different, and philosophy, ESPECIALLY vs Buddhism. which is complete non-theistic,

 

the experience of these methods can be debated, i tend to be idealistic and think they most religions are fingers pointing to the moon.

 

but all i'm saying is that you can't call yourself a Buddhist and a Muslim, or a Buddhist and a Christian, because the methods and views contradict each other. completely different vehicles, trying to ride both is unnecessary and pointless in my opinon

 

 

How much experience do you have with Tibetan Buddhism? Bonpo? or Nyingma?

 

If you had any you would see that Esoterically speaking everything you learn in "Ngon Dro" is exactly what you learn in real Sufism. Do they really contradict?

 

I think on the contrary they each move towards the same goal.

 

Also if you had any experience with the real esoteric Buddhism you would find that it actually is coming from Ancient Persia. Who put those Buddha Statues in Afghan that pre date the Shakyamuni Buddha???

 

Esoteric FREE MASONRY, Esoteric SUFISm, is very much connected and similar to esoteric Buddhism.

 

Its clear as day once you actually have experience. A lot of what is occuring in Chan is similar to what is occuring in Dzogchen and to what is experiences in Sufi methods that involve "Lailahailallah".

 

The methods are almost identical.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

Edited March 19, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Sunya]

 

 

If you had any you would see that Esoterically speaking everything you learn in "Ngon Dro" is exactly what you learn in real Sufism. Do they really contradict?

 

I think on the contrary they each move towards the same goal.

 

 

yes, but that is just ngondro. preliminary practices for purification

 

Also if you had any experience with the real esoteric Buddhism you would find that it actually is coming from Ancient Persia. Who put those Buddha Statues in Afghan that pre date the Shakyamuni Buddha???

 

 

Esoteric FREE MASONRY, Esoteric SUFISm, is very much connected and similar to esoteric Buddhism.

 

i've never heard of that. interesting,, where is your source?

 

 

 

 

 

i'm going to post a message from my friend, i think he'll be cool with it.

 

The Buddhist view on what liberation is, is very different not only conceptually, but on the basis of how it is when one is enlightened beyond concepts.

 

All other views lack the 12 links the specifics of the 8 fold noble path as taught by the Buddha, and Dependent Origination. All other paths, generally speaking, speak of an alpha and an omega, while Buddhism talks about beginninglessness and endlessness or infinite regress. Even Buddhism has different types of enlightenments and stages to realization that have such incredible detail in delineating the meaning to put any other tradition to an intellectual test is like teaching a 2 year old the A,B,C's, in such a case a Hindu scholar would be the 2 year old.

 

All these neo-Advaitin's think they know, but they have no idea.

 

I admit, I have just some glimpses. Having grown up Hindu, reading all the texts, having chanted the Bhagavad Gita and sections of various Puranas in sanskrit, The Mahabharata, the Ramayana, having chanted and sung all the different Abhangas and Bhajans with full love and blessing, having attained various forms of Hindu view Samadhi's. Having read the texts of Tukaram, Mirabai, Jnaneshwar, Kshemaraja, Utpaladeva and more, plus more even. Having read, texts of Saint Francis, St. Theresa, both of them, St. John of the Cross, St. Hildigard, Meister Eckhart, plus more. Having read so called secret tradition texts of the Taoists like, "Opening the Dragons Gate", and many others I don't care to try to remember right now. Having read, Rumi, Hafiz, Mansur Mastana to great, great lengths, texts after text. Even texts by the Bal Shem Tov', and teachings from Guru Nanak. Having read Vasisthas Yoga, Shankaracharyas texts. Having had Shaktipat from a traditional Hindu Adept of no small stature and no small level of realization who still haunts me, with love of course, I can say with understanding, that your not quite correct in your assumption.

 

Their understanding of what enlightenment is and how it's realized is but a couple of grains of sand compared to what is taught in the vastness of Buddhism. So much so that one will find that the source of the mysticism of all these different traditions is actually found in Buddha texts first. Even the Upanishads and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras came after Shakyamuni the Buddha. Even Tamil Shaivite Siddhars and ect., ect. all owe a great deal of their genius to what Gotama talked about during his many years of preaching the real Eternal Dharma.

 

Without understanding Dependent Origination and Emptiness as the Buddha taught it, one just gains higher levels of incarnations as a long lived God in a refined form bliss realm, or formless bliss realm, of some I've been to. But one will not find complete and total liberation through theistic, or substance paths, just absorption and finally re-cycling.

 

Believe me, I was heart broken when I found out.

 

But now... I'm extremely thankful!!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan these?? i couldn't find any others. they aren't older than Shakyamuni

[Taoist81]

Not to confuse fact with fiction, but this just seemed amusingly fitted for this thread:

 

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Buddallah

 

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Budislam

[Vajrasattva]

yes, but that is just ngondro. preliminary practices for purification

 

i've never heard of that. interesting,, where is your source?

i'm going to post a message from my friend, i think he'll be cool with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan these?? i couldn't find any others. they aren't older than Shakyamuni

 

 

Ngon Dro as I learned it

 

DZOGCHEN NGON DRO

contains everything

 

And regardless of "LEVEL"

 

it has outer, Inner, & Secret Applications.

 

It is preliminary & purifying But its deeper than that once you understand & Experience.

 

Where did you learn Ngon dro from?

 

If anything its a foundation not really something you learn and never come back to. Its more like its just the basis of all basic Yogas or higher practices.

 

As for my sources to the connection between Ancient Persia & Tibet?

 

All one has to do is look at the root practices in Sufism/Islam and compare them to tibetan practices.

 

SALAT is very SIMILAR to Seeking Refuge & Generating enlightnment and mandala Offering & Guru Yoga

 

But my actual source was my Bonpo Lama. He is Blood line to both OLD BON & Yungdrung Bon.

 

He explained to me that bonpo was coming from Ancient practices that came from what is now known as Iraq & Afghan. And that it was once a kingdom that spanned all the way to tibet.

 

His dates where about 10,000 years ago.

 

The info is out there. I do not doubt it since I am seeing and experiencing the similarities in my own practices. (Sufism & Bonpo).

 

Mikaelz...

 

What actual practices are you doing that you consider Buddhist or Dzogchen or Chan??

 

 

And what are their sources?

 

 

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[Sunya]

Ngon Dro as I learned it

 

DZOGCHEN NGON DRO

contains everything

 

And regardless of "LEVEL"

 

it has outer, Inner, & Secret Applications.

 

It is preliminary & purifying But its deeper than that once you understand & Experience.

 

Where did you learn Ngon dro from?

 

If anything its a foundation not really something you learn and never come back to. Its more like its just the basis of all basic Yogas or higher practices.

 

As for my sources to the connection between Ancient Persia & Tibet?

 

All one has to do is look at the root practices in Sufism/Islam and compare them to tibetan practices.

 

SALAT is very SIMILAR to Seeking Refuge & Generating enlightnment and mandala Offering & Guru Yoga

 

But my actual source was my Bonpo Lama. He is Blood line to both OLD BON & Yungdrung Bon.

 

He explained to me that bonpo was coming from Ancient practices that came from what is now known as Iraq & Afghan. And that it was once a kingdom that spanned all the way to tibet.

 

His dates where about 10,000 years ago.

 

The info is out there. I do not doubt it since I am seeing and experiencing the similarities in my own practices. (Sufism & Bonpo).

 

Mikaelz...

 

What actual practices are you doing that you consider Buddhist or Dzogchen or Chan??

And what are their sources?

Peace

 

Santiago

 

I thought Sufism arose from Muslim contact with Hinduism/Buddhism. guess I was wrong. no scholar has written about this link between Vajrayana and Iraq. Padmasambhava brought Vajrayana (and Dzogchen) from Oddiyana, a kindom in India. although Bons argue that a separate Dzogchen lineage already existed in Bon, Vajrayana is Indian.

 

i'm still thinking about whether I want to initiate into Vajrayana, i have a master living very close to me of Mahamudra and dzogchen (driking kagyu), before taking empowerments and taking on practice requirements I want to fully analyze the paths. Zen interests me too

 

Dzogchen is all about the pointing out instructions. did you get that? what happened?

[Vajrasattva]

I thought Sufism arose from Muslim contact with Hinduism/Buddhism. guess I was wrong. no scholar has written about this link between Vajrayana and Iraq. Padmasambhava brought Vajrayana (and Dzogchen) from Oddiyana, a kindom in India. although Bons argue that a separate Dzogchen lineage already existed in Bon, Vajrayana is Indian.

 

i'm still thinking about whether I want to initiate into Vajrayana, i have a master living very close to me of Mahamudra and dzogchen (driking kagyu), before taking empowerments and taking on practice requirements I want to fully analyze the paths. Zen interests me too

 

Dzogchen is all about the pointing out instructions. did you get that? what happened?

 

 

Also remember MANY tantric secrets where brought in to Tibet by Atisha from Indonesia (Java).

 

Dzogchen is all about the pointing out instructions. did you get that? what happened?

 

Are you speaking from books you have read or actual empowerments in to Dzogchen path?

 

Its about the "nature of the mind" (non - Conceptual mind) and the "self Arising with out effort out emptyness."

 

"primordial awareness"

 

 

 

"AH"

wikipedia

 

the great perfection

 

Is no different than

 

"AH" in the "ALLAH"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allah-eser2.png

 

 

Look closely and you will see its NOT THAT DIFFERENT. Their meaning and effect and meditations and understanding are almost identical.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Wayfarer64]

This is all well & good. Sufis are not the radical Islamists that this thread is addressing. I believe the question is related rather more to the Wahhabists elements of Islam. These more militant Muslems are supposed to represent some 20-25% of Islam... Do those numbers seem real? What are the numbers of Sufis? Who thinks that Sufis and Ba'hais may be a counter-balance to the Jihadists? Is there any peaceful yet determined effort by Sufis & Ba'hais to prevail upon Wahabis to cool their jets?

[Vajrasattva]

This is all well & good. Sufis are not the radical Islamists that this thread is addressing. I believe the question is related rather more to the Wahhabists elements of Islam. These more militant Muslems are supposed to represent some 20-25% of Islam... Do those numbers seem real? What are the numbers of Sufis? Who thinks that Sufis and Ba'hais may be a counter-balance to the Jihadists? Is there any peaceful yet determined effort by Sufis & Ba'hais to prevail upon Wahabis to cool their jets?

 

 

I agree the wahhabi is Garbage and a distortion of truth.

[Wayfarer64]

I agree the wahhabi is Garbage and a distortion of truth.

 

 

I'm not so sure that "garbage " is the best name to call those that need conversation and perhaps some new,meaningful ways to become aware of how their system is disaffecting the rest of Islam etc...

 

In other words as a supporter of Sufi wisdom isn't it more helpful to get their ear- or are they equally antagonistic towards Sufis, as any other approach to Allah?

[goldisheavy]

Calling the primordial mind "non-conceptual" is deviant. That's one place where Dzogchen falls off the cliff often. But lucky for them they often correct themselves by saying that "non-conceptual" is not really correct and that you shouldn't attach yourself to such a conception. I mean, it's obvious to any fool that distinction between concepts and non-conceptual is just another concept in the first place.

 

Primordial mind is beyond characteristics and it shines with the light of any characteristic whatsoever.

 

For example, consider the day-to-day "ordinary" mind. Such mind is the fastest, most dynamic part of experience. But it's also the slowest and most stable. Do you see it? Do you see what is faster than atoms and slower than the movement of mountains in the mind?

Edited March 19, 2009 by goldisheavy